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Napero
GedankenPanzer

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
Posts: 8558
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:42 pm 
 

Now, people, let's keep in mind that there's a distinct difference between being a heavy drinker and actual alcoholism. The latter is NOT FUN. I think droneriot knows what he's talking about here.

I like to have a beer or three practically every night, especially if I'm building something or working on my eternal firewood project, or whatever. I have no trouble abstaining for a week if the situation calls for it, and it's mostly just out of habit and for relaxation for me, but a true alcoholic does not think like that. While others drink to party, an alcoholic drinks to get drunk and often habitually goes far enough to pass out.

A person's relationship with booze is a very personal issue, and most of those who end up as alcoholics have mechanisms that they simply can't fight in other ways than abstaining completely. It might be psychological, but just as well it might have something to do with the body chemistry. And in many cases, there's simply no way for an alcoholic to learn reasonable drinking, it's often an all-or-nothing deal. If someone doesn't want to have a drink, I respect that completely, be it an ideological choice or a matter of lack of control.

On the other hand, most people need to learn their own limits, and amusing amateur nights at colleges and universities all around the world can be a spectacle worth seeing. Someone puking in a toilet three parties in a row during the freshman year is not alcoholism, it's a matter of learning. The culture around many alcoholic drinks can be amazing, and many brands hold immense experiences in taste and effect, branching out from whiskeys and cognacs with their subtle flavours and cruel characters, via the finesse of combining the right wine with an exquisite meal, to the incredible spectrum lumped together under the brutish label "beer". Completely missing those due to adamant refusal to have a sip of something seems like a pity to me, but respecting people's choices in the matter is important.

...

Civil, you are possibly the densest person on this board now, and that's not a small feat. It might do you a lot of good to go and see a few gigs, and keep doing it until the first time when you don't get the crap beaten out of you; then focus on what you did differently and whether or not you've learned something in the process. Grouping people according to external things, such as the music they listen to, or the possible ownership of boobs and vaginas, are definitely not way to categorize people, and without knowing anything else about you, I get the feel that you're a mildly autistic accountant. "Metalheads" are a very diverse group, and stating that they "like to go to pubs and get wasted" is a childish, simplified, insulting, and hamfisted approach, considering how varied the interests and ideologies on the scene can be. Take that as you might, but stereotypes are a gross oversimplification in most cases in the real world, and only good for artificial and forced groupings for the sake of making arbitrary rules. Try to avoid them if you wish to keep posting on this board.
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mjollnir
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:14 pm
Posts: 883
Location: Boswell, PA USA
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:56 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
Now, people, let's keep in mind that there's a distinct difference between being a heavy drinker and actual alcoholism. The latter is NOT FUN. I think droneriot knows what he's talking about here.

I like to have a beer or three practically every night, especially if I'm building something or working on my eternal firewood project, or whatever. I have no trouble abstaining for a week if the situation calls for it, and it's mostly just out of habit and for relaxation for me, but a true alcoholic does not think like that. While others drink to party, an alcoholic drinks to get drunk and often habitually goes far enough to pass out.

A person's relationship with booze is a very personal issue, and most of those who end up as alcoholics have mechanisms that they simply can't fight in other ways than abstaining completely. It might be psychological, but just as well it might have something to do with the body chemistry. And in many cases, there's simply no way for an alcoholic to learn reasonable drinking, it's often an all-or-nothing deal. If someone doesn't want to have a drink, I respect that completely, be it an ideological choice or a matter of lack of control.

On the other hand, most people need to learn their own limits, and amusing amateur nights at colleges and universities all around the world can be a spectacle worth seeing. Someone puking in a toilet three parties in a row during the freshman year is not alcoholism, it's a matter of learning. The culture around many alcoholic drinks can be amazing, and many brands hold immense experiences in taste and effect, branching out from whiskeys and cognacs with their subtle flavours and cruel characters, via the finesse of combining the right wine with an exquisite meal, to the incredible spectrum lumped together under the brutish label "beer". Completely missing those due to adamant refusal to have a sip of something seems like a pity to me, but respecting people's choices in the matter is important.


I actually agree. Alcoholism is more about psychology than the actual substance. However, alcohol is known to be addictive and very poisonous in high doses. But to say that metal as a whole "glorifies" it is a stretch.

Napero wrote:
Civil, you are possibly the densest person on this board now, and that's not a small feat. It might do you a lot of good to go and see a few gigs, and keep doing it until the first time when you don't get the crap beaten out of you; then focus on what you did differently and whether or not you've learned something in the process. Grouping people according to external things, such as the music they listen to, or the possible ownership of boobs and vaginas, are definitely not way to categorize people, and without knowing anything else about you, I get the feel that you're a mildly autistic accountant. "Metalheads" are a very diverse group, and stating that they "like to go to pubs and get wasted" is a childish, simplified, insulting, and hamfisted approach, considering how varied the interests and ideologies on the scene can be. Take that as you might, but stereotypes are a gross oversimplification in most cases in the real world, and only good for artificial and forced groupings for the sake of making arbitrary rules. Try to avoid them if you wish to keep posting on this board.


YESSS!!! Well said!

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 5011
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:07 pm 
 

Civil has very strong and poorly substantiated opinions about anyone wielding jugs.

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Civil
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:26 pm 
 

Napero wrote:

...

Civil, you are possibly the densest person on this board now, and that's not a small feat. It might do you a lot of good to go and see a few gigs, and keep doing it until the first time when you don't get the crap beaten out of you; then focus on what you did differently and whether or not you've learned something in the process. Grouping people according to external things, such as the music they listen to, or the possible ownership of boobs and vaginas, are definitely not way to categorize people, and without knowing anything else about you, I get the feel that you're a mildly autistic accountant. "Metalheads" are a very diverse group, and stating that they "like to go to pubs and get wasted" is a childish, simplified, insulting, and hamfisted approach, considering how varied the interests and ideologies on the scene can be. Take that as you might, but stereotypes are a gross oversimplification in most cases in the real world, and only good for artificial and forced groupings for the sake of making arbitrary rules. Try to avoid them if you wish to keep posting on this board.


Boy, you are touchy and hurt, aren't you? How defensive and aggressive with NO explanation you have to be to make your "points". Pfff.

I didn't say ALL metalheads systematically like to get wasted all the time, and that that's all they do. I mentioned this as ONE of the aspects of the scene. Learn how to read and interpret texts.

I drank beers yesterday with a friend after dinner. I know how to handle my drinking, but I also know it is a problem for some people and like I said it is an important and interesting subject. If you were midly intelligent you would stop making assumptions about what I said and understand I am talking about something SPECIFIC, the glorification of alcohol on metal, which is, by the way, the SUBJECT DISCUSSED.

Get a grip on yourself, learn to talk to others, become an ADULT, and learn to be a grown up. You know nothing about me, my life or what I know about metal (which I'm pretty sure is way more experience than you have). So instead of just spitting insults and venom at me for no reason, and AGAIN distorting the things I say, try to become the grown up that you are not, for your own sake.


Last edited by Civil on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
Posts: 4129
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:30 pm 
 

I think I've seen posts like that before. They usually occur right before the poster is banned.
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bloodycumshit
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:10 pm
Posts: 514
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:47 pm 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
I think I've seen posts like that before. They usually occur right before the poster is banned.


really? a mod takes has dig at somebody's post, then the thread gets banned when that somebody has a dig back..that's a bit of a shame

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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
Posts: 8962
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:53 pm 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
I think I've seen posts like that before. They usually occur right before the poster is banned.

I've seen posts like yours, sometimes the users who post them are getting banned as well! You know how the forum works, I don't really need to tell you what minimodding is, right?
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Atrocious_Mutilation
KITTY SO PUFFY

Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:51 am
Posts: 1687
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:58 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
Civil has very strong and poorly substantiated opinions about anyone wielding jugs.

This has to be the best thing I've read in a while. Sigged.
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Zodijackyl wrote:
Civil has very strong and poorly substantiated opinions about anyone wielding jugs.

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BasqueStorm
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 2038
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:18 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
Those of you who have been on this forum for more than a couple of years probably know that I am a sober alcoholic.

Didn't know about that. Congrats, man!

Aszfargoth wrote:
Heavy metal idealises consumption of alcohol, not alcoholism as a psychosomatic condition per se, because it idealises "outsiderisms" as ideas, regardless of actual possible consequences for individuals which participate in said outsiderisms.

Zodijackyl wrote:
It's another aspect of being counter-culture and separatist in terms of music/culture.

shouvince wrote:
Well, in essence, metal has always rebelled against what is in the "mainstream" or what is in the majority or what is goody-fluffy-and-happy.

I came here to write something like this.
Counter culture is about things not well seen in society so...

Eh_Timeghoul wrote:
not. fuckin. enough. i'm looking at you 'post-whateverthefuck'
"Never Stop the Madness"<pretty much the only thing i'll ever agree with Black Metal people with

LOL! Are you 5 years old or what?

droneriot wrote:
Alcoholism isn't fun you clown.

Obviously, +1.

mjollnir wrote:
I actually agree. Alcoholism is more about psychology than the actual substance.

You know alcohol is PHYSICALLY REALLY addictive, don't you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_d ... dependence
http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/drinking ... r-physical

Zelkiiro wrote:
I think I've seen posts like that before. They usually occur right before the poster is banned.

Metantoine wrote:
I've seen posts like yours, sometimes the users who post them are getting banned as well! You know how the forum works, I don't really need to tell you what minimodding is, right?

LOL!
Let's chill out, please.


Last edited by BasqueStorm on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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OneRodeToAsaBay
The Doll With the Hideous Spirit

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:49 pm
Posts: 2090
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:36 pm 
 

I agree with drone's suggestion that an overly romantic view of drugs and alcohol is troublingly prevalent in a lot of metal, moreso as a subcultural expectation (at shows and fests, for example) rather than as lyrical themes in the music itself. Damn near every show I've been to has been at a bar or has had alcohol available in some capacity. I don't mind having a few drinks when I'm out but it'd be naive to say that this kind of availability and encouragement doesn't spill over to forgotten nights, blackouts, and even alcoholism for more than a few people. Hell, until recent health issues forced me to severely limit my drinking, I got caught up in it as well even though I've never had a full-blown addiction to anything.

And even serious addictions aside, I'm sure many of us are too familiar with that dude, you know, the douche standing by the stage, harassing the musicians, yelling incoherently, spilling his drink on everyone, groping girls in his vicinity, and making an ass of himself in the pit. It's just not a good look any way you slice it and it's irritating having to deal with drunken assholes when I'm just trying to have a good time at a live show. It'd be nice if metal culture changed a little to encourage less juvenile behavior but I'm not sure how that would happen.

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conquer__all
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:49 pm
Posts: 258
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:57 pm 
 

I use to get drunk every night for like ten years straight, now I drink two or three times a week and only get drunk once in a great while. I guess I considered myself a functioning Alcoholic because I would go to work everyday and things, but the hangovers finally caught up with me a few years ago and I had to cool it down. Plus the blackouts didn't help either. I do drink at shows, which I don't really see too much drinking going on in my area clubs were there are metal shows, actually I been to a indie-rock show a few years back and those dudes can out drink us metalheads by a fucking mile!!!
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bloodycumshit
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:10 pm
Posts: 514
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:59 pm 
 

OneRodeToAsaBay wrote:
It'd be nice if metal culture changed a little to encourage less juvenile behavior but I'm not sure how that would happen.


another sub-genre, straight edge metal :lol: the hardcore kids done it

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LanceCriminal
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:25 am
Posts: 75
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:17 pm 
 

Having grown up with an alcoholic dad and nowadays catching myself going down the same road, I see where you're coming from. But I really am of the latter opinion that people should just enroll in the school of hard knocks early in life.

Alcohol isn't going anywhere and whether or not the music focuses on it, metalheads are still going to go out and take bottles to the face like it's cool, because human beings enjoy drinking...

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godsonsafari
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:03 am
Posts: 689
Location: Sparty's Land Grant University, USA
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:57 pm 
 

Quote:
I agree with drone's suggestion that an overly romantic view of drugs and alcohol is troublingly prevalent in a lot of metal, moreso as a subcultural expectation (at shows and fests, for example) rather than as lyrical themes in the music itself.


I think this comes with the outsider territory. You'll see similarly cavalier attitudes towards binge use of alcohol (and other drugs) from other subcultures surrounding various art as well: Houston's hip hop scene is synonymous with the use of codeine syrup, for an example. Juggalos are...well, Juggalos. Crust punk, goths, they all partake to excess, and really the core motivations are more similar that different even if it is externalized in wildly different fashions.

Quote:
And even serious addictions aside, I'm sure many of us are too familiar with that dude, you know, the douche standing by the stage, harassing the musicians, yelling incoherently, spilling his drink on everyone, groping girls in his vicinity, and making an ass of himself in the pit. It's just not a good look any way you slice it and it's irritating having to deal with drunken assholes when I'm just trying to have a good time at a live show. It'd be nice if metal culture changed a little to encourage less juvenile behavior but I'm not sure how that would happen.


Metal isn't thinking man's music. I know this goes against the pretense of a lot of people's opinions about their favorite bands or whatever, but it is at its best when it is raw and primal. That state is not one that is going to encourage intelligent, well considered behavior. If you want people well dressed, acting rationally, and looking to absorb music for music's sake, support your local symphony orchestra.
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OneRodeToAsaBay
The Doll With the Hideous Spirit

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:49 pm
Posts: 2090
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:17 am 
 

I get the whole outsider aura and the inherent casual behavior toward substance abuse but that doesn't mean the shitty behavior can't be criticized. I'm definitely not one to expect metal to be 'thinking man's music' and I certainly don't go to metal shows expecting to debate abstract political theory but, c'mon, is it unreasonable to ask people to not be assholes to others who are just trying to have a good time? Maybe I'm just a boring old fogey or something but being groped and having drinks splashed on me just isn't my idea of a fun evening and it honestly strangles my desire to go to shows at all, no matter how much I may enjoy headbanging and friendly moshpits.

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godsonsafari
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:03 am
Posts: 689
Location: Sparty's Land Grant University, USA
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:30 am 
 

Quote:
I get the whole outsider aura and the inherent casual behavior toward substance abuse but that doesn't mean the shitty behavior can't be criticized.


Of course it can be criticized. Metal is a ethical free-for-all of rebellious thought and ideals though and one has to realistically expect the behaviours of those attending shows to reflect that. "Shitty behaviour" is what, after all? Behaviours antithetical to participation in a constructive society? Metal is counterculture, and while it has a culture of its own, that culture is in large part about tearing down western societal norms. In short; People acting like assholes is supposed to be part of the appeal, believe it or not. It is the danger that drives the engine. Without that danger, this is all a ruse, a facade, a joke. It has no real energy. It is fraudulent and the entire thing is a work. Every band, every fan, all of them would be "poseurs".

Quote:
Maybe I'm just a boring old fogey or something but being groped and having drinks splashed on me just isn't my idea of a fun evening and it honestly strangles my desire to go to shows at all, no matter how much I may enjoy headbanging and friendly moshpits.


I have moments where I think it would be cool to go to shows a lot again. Then again, in the last couple years, I've thought it would be cool to try and revisit the things I enjoyed when I was a teenager and see if I could recapture that magic again. Bzzzz. Didn't happen. I feel like I'd be the same way going to metal shows again on a frequent basis - back of the club at the bar, no friends, sitting at the bar wondering what the hell precisely I'm doing there when my wife is at home by herself or the friends I do have are doing something radically different with their time. If anyone out there is going out, doing the damn thang, and having a good time doing it, then more power to you. I'm at a different place now and it isn't for me. Not necessarily a better place or anything, just a different one.
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Napero
GedankenPanzer

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
Posts: 8558
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:01 am 
 

Civil wrote:
Boy, you are touchy and hurt, aren't you? How defensive and aggressive with NO explanation you have to be to make your "points". Pfff.

Now, now, who is being touchy here? Boo-hoo?

Civil wrote:
I didn't say ALL metalheads systematically like to get wasted all the time, and that that's all they do. I mentioned this as ONE of the aspects of the scene. Learn how to read and interpret texts.

Says the guy who wrote this:

Civil wrote:
On the subject of acohol and metal, metal SURELY glorifies alcohol and getting drunk, not only in lyrics and so but the main activity of metalheads, as far as recreation goes, is to go to the pub and get wasted while having beers and listening to metal.


I think the error in the message is in the end doing the transmission here. The next instance of passive-aggressive whining and denying what you've obviously written yourself will get you banned. And no, I'm not butthurt, I'm keeping an eye on the quality of discussion on this board.

Civil wrote:
Get a grip on yourself, learn to talk to others, become an ADULT, and learn to be a grown up. You know nothing about me, my life or what I know about metal (which I'm pretty sure is way more experience than you have). So instead of just spitting insults and venom at me for no reason, and AGAIN distorting the things I say, try to become the grown up that you are not, for your own sake.

Now, this is an ad hominem if I ever saw one, and with contents that deserve no comments. Another one of these against anyone, and you're out of here, as well. Please note that this is the first time I ever paid attention to your sideshow act. I will only pay attention to it once more, if you know what I mean. Behave or Mr Darwin will want to have a word with you.
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Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
Posts: 918
Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:39 am 
 

OneRodeToAsaBay wrote:
I agree with drone's suggestion that an overly romantic view of drugs and alcohol is troublingly prevalent in a lot of metal, moreso as a subcultural expectation (at shows and fests, for example) rather than as lyrical themes in the music itself. Damn near every show I've been to has been at a bar or has had alcohol available in some capacity. I don't mind having a few drinks when I'm out but it'd be naive to say that this kind of availability and encouragement doesn't spill over to forgotten nights, blackouts, and even alcoholism for more than a few people.


It might be a cultural expectation but is it a metal subcultural expectation?

Most places where you can sit down and be entertained will have (or are trying, or would love to get) a permit to sell alcohol. This could be at sports events, theatre or a venue for any kind of music. I think people, whether they are into the Cirque du Soleil, Shakespeare, Slayer, Beethoven, Formula 1 or Baseball do expect alcohol to be on sale and available in most venues and events and I don't see anything wrong with it. A lot of people drink almost exclusively socially. These are perfect occasions. Makes sense.

Regarding the impact of art (such as heavy metal lyrics and message) on individuals, some people may be making too much of a big deal with this.

Music is not gonna "make you do things" through suggestions, unless an individual is struggling with very specific types of mental illnesses. I'm talking about people unable to discern reality here.

What the different subcultures like metal can do, however, is attract people who are already inclined to view favorably the message or messenger. For instance, if you're deeply involved in a personal spiritual quest, you might check out more occult bands. If you're into white supremacy, you might be more inclined to check out Burzum. If you're into tits and Harleys, Motley Crue might resonate strongly. A lot of metal is about excess. And so, it might feel good to listen to that type of stuff while getting wasted and going wild. Watching Leaving Las Vegas is probably not what people who want to feel good about getting wasted repeatedly have in mind for entertainment.

But if someone cranks up some Burzum next to you, it ain't gonna turn you into a white supremacist or nutjob. Nor will you begin to drink uncontrollably and hump everything in your vicinity by listening to WASP.

The problem with alcoholism is a personal one. It's a terrible struggle but one that must be faced by the individual.
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Burnyoursins
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:59 am
Posts: 970
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:01 am 
 

bloodycumshit wrote:
Zelkiiro wrote:
I think I've seen posts like that before. They usually occur right before the poster is banned.


really? a mod takes has dig at somebody's post, then the thread gets banned when that somebody has a dig back..that's a bit of a shame


Well, I think the point was that the dig was lame..
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
SleightOfVickonomy wrote:
...no one still knows what it's supposed to be about.

Well, I reckon there's a pretty good chance it'll be about gory tits.

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Burnyoursins
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:59 am
Posts: 970
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:08 am 
 

OneRodeToAsaBay wrote:
I agree with drone's suggestion that an overly romantic view of drugs and alcohol is troublingly prevalent in a lot of metal, moreso as a subcultural expectation (at shows and fests, for example) rather than as lyrical themes in the music itself. Damn near every show I've been to has been at a bar or has had alcohol available in some capacity. I don't mind having a few drinks when I'm out but it'd be naive to say that this kind of availability and encouragement doesn't spill over to forgotten nights, blackouts, and even alcoholism for more than a few people. Hell, until recent health issues forced me to severely limit my drinking, I got caught up in it as well even though I've never had a full-blown addiction to anything.


Sorry for the double post, but I really think that has more to do with the fact that there really aren't a lot of venues out there that AREN'T bars for any sort of genre of music. And I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that it's more prevalent in metal than it is in other genres of music. Alcohol loosens people up, lets them stop being self-conscious about themselves and just dance or whatever. You'll find that it's prevalent at any kind of gig/fest, regardless of the genre. Unless, of course, it's the straight edge crowd. Like I said, people need to know their limits, and if they send themselves over the edge once in awhile, well, they either learn where to stop, or they keep doing it. And I don't mean to insult ex-alcoholics or anything, I'm just saying that personally it's not something I can feel pity for.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
SleightOfVickonomy wrote:
...no one still knows what it's supposed to be about.

Well, I reckon there's a pretty good chance it'll be about gory tits.

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bloodycumshit
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:10 pm
Posts: 514
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:06 am 
 

Burnyoursins wrote:
Like I said, people need to know their limits, and if they send themselves over the edge once in awhile, well, they either learn where to stop, or they keep doing it. And I don't mean to insult ex-alcoholics or anything, I'm just saying that personally it's not something I can feel pity for.


well for me it's because i had anxiety/depression problems before hand,alcohol stopped the anxiety so well that i would drink too much every occasion .I couldn't help it,i couldn't stand reality.People would go home to bed and i would be still up drinking hiding from the fact that i would have to get up in the morning and have that horrible feeling of anxiety and deep depression again multiplied by the fact that i been a cock the night before.It was a vicious circle.it's not that i did't learn to stop,its that i couldn't see another way out of the pains of every day life.Im not saying you should feel pity for me,but it isn't as black and white as saying "you learn to stop or you don't"

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Civil
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:13 am 
 

Napero wrote:
Civil wrote:
And no, I'm not butthurt, I'm keeping an eye on the quality of discussion on this board.
.


Yes, you are "butthurt" and no, you are not "keeping an eye" in the quality of nothing. You made personal attacks and fictional descriptions of what you, out of who knows where, believes my personal life could be in your head.

THIS is an Ad Hominem. I hadn't even spoken to you AT ALL and you sunk to the level of name-calling and offending me for absolutely no reason. "Autistic accountant"? Who do you think you are to talk like that to other people? Did I call you any names? "Get beaten at gigs to learn how to behave"? Do you think you can talk like that to people and NOT expect a reaction?

And I am being the aggressive. How much hypocrisy can you deliver?

Like I said, get a grip on yourself and grow up, Napero. Become a man.

Wanna delete me? Fine. Do you think I'm afraid of you and your petty, selfish threats? Your petty will to use whatever mod-power you may have to execute personal vengeance on people you have gratuitously offended? You little victory of the day because you exercise force upon others because, lo and behold, you are the almighty mod of a web board and boy, can you BE CRUEL if people react to your offenses?

I don't.

You don't tell me what to do, specially since I never even addressed you and you attacked me with your ignorant name-calling for no reason.

In any case, I intend to ignore you. Have a nice life.


Last edited by Civil on Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:22 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6557
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:16 am 
 

Burnyoursins, there are mechanisms in the human brain that cause alcoholism that are completely beyond the person's own control. It's not comparable to most other forms of addiction due to the prevalence of alcohol use in our culture. Nearly every normal first-world individual experiments with alcohol at some point, some more heavily than others. I'm not saying you have to feel pity towards alcoholics, but if you understand the fact that most alcoholics have become so due to reasons beyond their control, you are clearly not a very compassionate person. Anyhow, that's not what this thread is about.

Riffs, your assessment of lyrics' and imagery's influence on listeners is correct as far as adult audience go. However, teenagers can be easily influenced. Most first-worlders begin forming their attitude towards alcohol and its use during childhood.
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BasqueStorm
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 2038
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:50 am 
 

OneRodeToAsaBay wrote:
But, c'mon, is it unreasonable to ask people to not be assholes to others who are just trying to have a good time? Maybe I'm just a boring old fogey or something but being groped and having drinks splashed on me just isn't my idea of a fun evening and it honestly strangles my desire to go to shows at all, no matter how much I may enjoy headbanging and friendly moshpits.

Seems like.
That happens to me even when I go to nightclubs.
Seems like all is full of stupid people.

godsonsafari wrote:
I have moments where I think it would be cool to go to shows a lot again. Then again, in the last couple years, I've thought it would be cool to try and revisit the things I enjoyed when I was a teenager and see if I could recapture that magic again. Bzzzz. Didn't happen. I feel like I'd be the same way going to metal shows again on a frequent basis - back of the club at the bar, no friends, sitting at the bar wondering what the hell precisely I'm doing there when my wife is at home by herself or the friends I do have are doing something radically different with their time. If anyone out there is going out, doing the damn thang, and having a good time doing it, then more power to you. I'm at a different place now and it isn't for me. Not necessarily a better place or anything, just a different one.

The problem is why do you do what you do and what do you get from it.

Napero wrote:
Civil wrote:
On the subject of acohol and metal, metal SURELY glorifies alcohol and getting drunk, not only in lyrics and so but the main activity of metalheads, as far as recreation goes, is to go to the pub and get wasted while having beers and listening to metal.

Yeah, that was quite funny.

Riffs wrote:
Most places where you can sit down and be entertained will have (or are trying, or would love to get) a permit to sell alcohol. This could be at sports events, theatre or a venue for any kind of music. I think people, whether they are into the Cirque du Soleil, Shakespeare, Slayer, Beethoven, Formula 1 or Baseball do expect alcohol to be on sale and available in most venues and events and I don't see anything wrong with it. A lot of people drink almost exclusively socially. These are perfect occasions. Makes sense.
...
The problem with alcoholism is a personal one. It's a terrible struggle but one that must be faced by the individual.

Burnyoursins wrote:
I really think that has more to do with the fact that there really aren't a lot of venues out there that AREN'T bars for any sort of genre of music.

Not saying we don't have this behaviour here but... what a "funny" country you have there!

bloodycumshit wrote:
well for me it's because i had anxiety/depression problems before hand,alcohol stopped the anxiety so well that i would drink too much every occasion.I couldn't help it,i couldn't stand reality.People would go home to bed and i would be still up drinking hiding from the fact that i would have to get up in the morning and have that horrible feeling of anxiety and deep depression again multiplied by the fact that i been a cock the night before.It was a vicious circle.it's not that i did't learn to stop,its that i couldn't see another way out of the pains of every day life.Im not saying you should feel pity for me,but it isn't as black and white as saying "you learn to stop or you don't"

Wow! That sucks, man! Hope you're better now!

Ilwhyan wrote:
Burnyoursins, there are mechanisms in the human brain that cause alcoholism that are completely beyond the person's own control.

I understand what you say but... that's an addiction.
The problem is that, as you stated, we're being too permissive with alcohol and young people.
Adults should try to have an eye on youngster's relation with alcohol instead of looking to somewhere else.

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godsonsafari
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:03 am
Posts: 689
Location: Sparty's Land Grant University, USA
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:42 am 
 

Quote:
It might be a cultural expectation but is it a metal subcultural expectation?

Most places where you can sit down and be entertained will have (or are trying, or would love to get) a permit to sell alcohol. This could be at sports events, theatre or a venue for any kind of music. I think people, whether they are into the Cirque du Soleil, Shakespeare, Slayer, Beethoven, Formula 1 or Baseball do expect alcohol to be on sale and available in most venues and events and I don't see anything wrong with it. A lot of people drink almost exclusively socially. These are perfect occasions. Makes sense.


I think we're talking about a metal subcultural expectation in this particular case. Do you have drunk obnoxious fans probably screaming for Ferrari at F1 races? Sure, but the context is appreciably different, if for no other reason than the cost to attend is vastly different than that for a night of death metal. Let's expound on this further to other art - would you realistically expect to go see a play and see drunkards yelling at the actors in 2013? That was expected behaviour 2-3 centuries ago, but no longer is accepted at this point in history. The audiences are vastly different in many of these cases, even if the social use of alcohol is similar. No one is going to Cirque Du Soilel under the pretense that it is a performance art intended to bring down or change the West.
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ScandalfTheShite
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:46 am
Posts: 425
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:47 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Finnish popular music has always glorified alcohol use, if not outright partying, ranging from supposedly amusing drinking stories in rock and schlager to lyrics about hard partying in electronic pop and such. This is the kind of stuff nobody listens to outside Finland (apart from Estonia at best), so I can imagine other countries having their own folk drinking anthems in various shapes and forms that foreigners fortunately never hear.

Compared to popular music, I'd say metal lyrics about alcohol are relatively scarce. Maybe it's the kind of stuff I listen to - out of my top 25 favourite bands maybe two consistently sing about (heavy) alcohol use.


It's quite amusing that most of the drunk driving/homicide incidents in Finland are performed by schlager listeners (and artists) and such and not metalheads. Well, maybe it's because they form the greater part of the population. But what I gather metalheads are really peace loving folks compared to most of schlager rednecks. In happenings like Tuska there is rarely any violent acts, even if metal fans consume great amounts of alcohol, the music is quite violent by nature and metal music is highly demonized. But then on some fucking Frederik gig you are almost guaranteed to get your as kicked if you have long hair or so.

Some guy I used to work with had an impression that most metalheads are cocaine users. Don't know where he got that impression, but I've never met a metalhead who was a cocaine user. Maybe some "rock stars" like Blackie Lawless really used cocaine, don't know, but not your average metalhead.
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Lagartija
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:27 am
Posts: 477
Location: Spain
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:58 am 
 

Tankard themselves admit that there is no way they could keep up the pace of what they sing about and warn about the dangers of alcohol addiction. Gerre works with drug-addicts so he knows what he is talking about. They are about having fun with booze (and fun in general).
Enjoying drugs (including alcohol) and using them responsibly is the key; when it gets out of hand is when it becomes dangerous.
The difficult bit is knowing when it's getting too much and putting the brakes on...

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Lagartija
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:27 am
Posts: 477
Location: Spain
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:04 am 
 

elf48687789 wrote:
there was that really horrible album by Total Chaos, Anthems from the Alleyways, really horrible album as the earlier ones were much better and didn't have songs about drinking.

Very sorry for the subject deviation, but which TC albums do you recommend? I've got 'Freedom kills', 'Punk invasion' and another one I can't remember, I really like their faster stuff.

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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
Posts: 9725
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:10 am 
 

godsonsafari wrote:
Quote:
I get the whole outsider aura and the inherent casual behavior toward substance abuse but that doesn't mean the shitty behavior can't be criticized.


Of course it can be criticized. Metal is a ethical free-for-all of rebellious thought and ideals though and one has to realistically expect the behaviours of those attending shows to reflect that. "Shitty behaviour" is what, after all? Behaviours antithetical to participation in a constructive society? Metal is counterculture, and while it has a culture of its own, that culture is in large part about tearing down western societal norms. In short; People acting like assholes is supposed to be part of the appeal, believe it or not. It is the danger that drives the engine. Without that danger, this is all a ruse, a facade, a joke. It has no real energy. It is fraudulent and the entire thing is a work. Every band, every fan, all of them would be "poseurs".

What the fuck are you talking about? There's shitty behavior and then there's shitty behavior. Obviously metal has some degree of "acting like an asshole" at its core, like being loud, rowdy, blasphemous, irreverent, etc., but there's a pretty clear line between that kind of thing and getting way too drunk at a show and acting like a douche. It's not about "behaviours antithetical to participation in a constructive society," it's about behaviors antithetical to participation in metal culture. Or do you think people who grope strange women at shows should be cherished, because without the "danger" they bring, all the bands and fans (which includes you, I guess) would be poseurs?
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FasterDisaster
OMG WAT DOES THIS CAPS LOCK KEY DO

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:08 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:59 am 
 

Not any more than slut-fucking. So, yes?
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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:03 pm 
 

What is that supposed to mean?
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Seriously, why ban me??????? That topic had nothing wrong with it! Theres something wrong with you i can tell you! You're immoral banning of my account! Anyways, i'm creating my own metal arcives.

http://extrememetalencyclopedia.webs.com/

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Jonpo
Hypercolombowler

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:05 am
Posts: 4580
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:15 pm 
 

Hah, I was trying to parse that out myself. I think he may have been directly answering the thread title? Still confusing as fuck but it couldn't have been in response to what you said.

I really don't think we're going to find anyone here, not even Civil (assuming he can still post), who is going to speak out in support of any sort of groping/molestation at shows. That shit is so obviously inexcusable that I can't imagine we would even need to have a discussion. It's a black/white, wrong/right issue.
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FasterDisaster
OMG WAT DOES THIS CAPS LOCK KEY DO

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:08 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:41 pm 
 

Jonpo wrote:
I think he may have been directly answering the thread title?

Yeah, that's what I was doing.

I think it's also worth noting there's guys like Gerre in Tankard who used to be a fatass and decided he didn't like the way he looked/felt and decided to go fitness crazy and now the dude is in crazy-shape. I say that because everything Tankard has done has been related to alcohol. So, I think it's idealized as part of the theatrics. Sometimes. And then there's guys like Wehrmacht and Municipal Waste where they seem to take their drinking habits super seriously. I know Terror 2000 has some stories of getting drunk and setting tires on fire and shit.

But, a bit of research indicates that Gerre has taken a trip back down to pudge city. Now that's depressing.

So my final answer is yes. Not because of Gerre, but just because that was my answer in the beginning.
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Burnyoursins
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:59 am
Posts: 970
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:25 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Burnyoursins, there are mechanisms in the human brain that cause alcoholism that are completely beyond the person's own control. It's not comparable to most other forms of addiction due to the prevalence of alcohol use in our culture. Nearly every normal first-world individual experiments with alcohol at some point, some more heavily than others. I'm not saying you have to feel pity towards alcoholics, but if you understand the fact that most alcoholics have become so due to reasons beyond their control, you are clearly not a very compassionate person. Anyhow, that's not what this thread is about.


I'm really not, I'll admit it. But honestly, it's not always because of some "mechanism" in our brain. Some people do just take it to far. And whether that's out of a need to escape or whatever, it's still within their control. I get the feeling that the only people that FULLY buy that it's out of their control is ex-alcoholics and heavy drinkers. Alcohol has been in prevalent use since we starting building cities, for Christ sake. It's use hasn't skyrocketed, it's just stayed the same. Regardless of all that, yes, lets stay on topic.

And Basque, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say? It's just a fact that most gigs, regardless of genre, are held at a venue that serves alcohol. I think the same holds true for most of Europe?

Also, that Civil dude REALLY needs to shut the fuck up.. No ones on your side, man, because it's a terribly stupid side to be on.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
SleightOfVickonomy wrote:
...no one still knows what it's supposed to be about.

Well, I reckon there's a pretty good chance it'll be about gory tits.

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slavonic777
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:36 am
Posts: 887
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:33 pm 
 

I really dont want to end with broken liver in my, let's say, early 50's or with cancer... I am into juicing! (google yourself Jay Kordich). Some people laugh at me that it
is totally "not metal" but I dont give a damn. But, however, when I go to the concerts I temporarily break all my rules and all that healthy nutrition stuff, and I drink, and sometimes I drink a lot, but I try to minimalize it and recompense my body with a lot of juice, vitamins and do some detox, as soon as I am back.

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bloodycumshit
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:10 pm
Posts: 514
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:43 pm 
 

Burnyoursins wrote:

I'm really not, I'll admit it. But honestly, it's not always because of some "mechanism" in our brain. Some people do just take it to far. And whether that's out of a need to escape or whatever, it's still within their control. I get the feeling that the only people that FULLY buy that it's out of their control is ex-alcoholics and heavy drinkers.


And only dumb ignorant young people say things like that,i mean how old are you? the things you post definitely sound like there coming from a young teenager with no life experience.

Quote:
Alcohol has been in prevalent use since we starting building cities, for Christ sake. It's use hasn't skyrocketed, it's just stayed the same.

what the fuck has that got to do with anything

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FasterDisaster
OMG WAT DOES THIS CAPS LOCK KEY DO

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:08 pm
Posts: 6442
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:30 pm 
 

Lagartija wrote:
Tankard themselves admit that there is no way they could keep up the pace of what they sing about and warn about the dangers of alcohol addiction. Gerre works with drug-addicts so he knows what he is talking about. They are about having fun with booze (and fun in general).

Oh, I totally didn't know this, so I suppose you can render my previous statement on them moot.

Is that his day job?
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savagevelocithrash
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:48 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:35 pm 
 

Well, Saint Vitus did this Black Flag song "Thirsty and Miserable", a really "anti-drinking" song, so not everybody is praising alcohol in Metal... also a lot of Black Metal musician are on this "anti-hedonist" position (you know... "no fun" and all this crap)

But yeah, lots of metal bands and metalheads praise alcohol and drugs... me too.

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Hastein45
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:56 pm
Posts: 199
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:08 pm 
 

I think alcohol use is more cultural than a product of the music itself, even though certain genres have a tendency to talk about the subject more then others. As a poster elaborated, many people(I would say the vast majority) in the first-world become acquainted with alcohol, usually at a relatively early age. If not through friends or family, then through music or some other avenue. Many popular genres here in the States popularize alcohol consumption; pop, hip-hop, rock, etc. and it is viewed as a social activity. Whenever I go to shows with my friends or participate in anything deemed "fun", alcohol is nearby. With that said, I don`t think alcohol consumption is anymore glorified in metal than some other genres of music but I still believe it is more glorified then it should be.

I am somewhat of a rarity in the West, as I have never consumed any substance. This is in part due to my mother`s drink-until-you-die approach and then unflattering things she has done while intoxicated. What contributed later was the unsavory things many people would do while drunk and the fact that many of them did things they regretted later on. To me, it felt like an excuse to do something idiotic and possibly immoral. I would ask a friend, "Why did you cheat on your girlfriend of 3 years?" and the response would be "I was drunk!". "Why did you hit your girlfriend?", friend: "We were arguing over stupid shit and we were drunk." If anyone listens to country music, Jason Aldean just made a similar error(cheating) recently. I feel like these are excuses but they maintain credibility because other people who drink use them. I am not saying that alcohol doesn`t lower your inhibitions and make you prone to doing more stupid shit, it does, but if you know you do stupid shit when drinking then you are actively engaging precarious behavior.

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bloodycumshit
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:10 pm
Posts: 514
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:38 pm 
 

savagevelocithrash wrote:
Well, Saint Vitus did this Black Flag song "Thirsty and Miserable", a really "anti-drinking" song, so not everybody is praising alcohol in Metal


black flag arn't really 'metal' are they,i think there's a million hardcore songs that are anti drinking,how about minor threat's "straight edge".7 seconds ,Gorilla biscuits pretty much that whole 80s hardcore scene was straight edge.I don't think those bands relate to the thread question

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