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MacMoney
Man of the Cloth

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:17 pm
Posts: 1971
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:24 am 
 

Everything else aside, you're doing the same thing here that a lot of Americans do regarding... Well, at least Europe, i.e. paint the whole place with the same brush. The drinking culture and alcohol laws vary a whole damn lot in the States depending on which state (and county) you are in. The drinking age all over is 21, yes, but that's pretty much where the uniformity ends. A lot of places have open container laws, others don't. Some states have monopoly on retail on alcohol, others just on liquor, some don't have monopoly at all. For the drinking culture I can't really speak for having only visited the place once and that place was Las Vegas (work) with a short stopover in New York, but the ones in Las Vegas who were most drunk were the foreign tourists. As a Finn I found it very surprising how polite and friendly and benevolent the bartenders were towards those people drunk off their asses. Here, it's illegal to serve people who are visibly drunk (the seller's discretion) so they tend to see those people as dead weight so they get a rather belligerent treatment, but in Vegas they just kept pouring them liquor and being friendly. Then again, these guys tipped very generously as well, so no wonder.

The locals that I talked to at the bars (a 'craft' beer junkie that I am, I mainly visited bars that way biased so the clientele was probably different than from other types of bars) seemed to just be there for a couple and then home. But what was surprising to me (I sort of knew about it beforehand, but never really realized before how prevalent it was) was the fact that Scorntyrant touched upon: The driving while under the influence. It's considered a big no-no here, getting you very stigmatized, but there it was commonplace, required even, considering the distances a lot of bars are and all that.

So... A bit off-topic, sorry about that. But generally the view towards alcohol seems to be a lot healthier in the US than in Finland at least. Comparing to continental Europe, one would have to do a lot more research.

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godsonsafari
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:03 am
Posts: 689
Location: Sparty's Land Grant University, USA
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:08 am 
 

Quote:
Well, the American guy really couldn't believe it, but he told us something that we couldn't grasp. That where he's from some people do drink on the streets, but with the bottle hidden in a plastic bag... That shit is hilarious!




This is not a real speech from a real police officer, but it is based on reality. Well, except Vegas. And now, my friend, you know.

Quote:
It seems like there's no decent drinking culture in the US (the local Australian pub described above seems rather familiar to me on the other hand), either people stay sober or get completely shit-faced. Well, probably that's what you get when your father takes you to the shooting range instead of drinking your first beer with you to show you what "drink responsibly" means.


IMO since the drinking age has been hiked to 21, it means that most adults don't learn about drinking alcohol with responsible parties, but in binge drinking illegal parties. Someone else mentioned the problem Americans have with driving under the influence. It is in many ways a structural problem that is difficult to fix given the size of the US and the laws pertaining to public drunkenness and the police's forced reaction to it on the state and municipal level. Being drunk in public in the state of Iowa, for example, can get you fined $1000 and put in jail for 30 days. Given the largely rural nature of the state, it makes calling a taxi virtually impossible.
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bloodycumshit
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:10 pm
Posts: 495
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:49 am 
 

In the news the other night there was a story told from an american reporter telling of the outrages survey done that showed american woman binge drink,drinking over 6 beers at least once every 3 months. :lol: the new zealand anchor woman told us after it was once a month in new zealand.

I have lived in ozzy and alcohol seems to be a big part of there culture,but they don't seem to abuse the fuck out of it like they do over here.

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Young_Metalhead
Saanut kerran. Todistetusti.

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:17 pm
Posts: 1524
Location: México, DF
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:54 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
Raising my glass (of ice tea) to this topic, cheers! :beer:

Ice tea? Seriously? :lol:
It is idealised in thrash metal. That's it.
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ObservationSlave
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:27 pm
Posts: 389
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:57 am 
 

MacMoney wrote:
Everything else aside, you're doing the same thing here that a lot of Americans do regarding... Well, at least Europe, i.e. paint the whole place with the same brush. The drinking culture and alcohol laws vary a whole damn lot in the States depending on which state (and county) you are in. The drinking age all over is 21, yes, but that's pretty much where the uniformity ends. A lot of places have open container laws, others don't. Some states have monopoly on retail on alcohol, others just on liquor, some don't have monopoly at all. For the drinking culture I can't really speak for having only visited the place once and that place was Las Vegas (work) with a short stopover in New York, but the ones in Las Vegas who were most drunk were the foreign tourists. As a Finn I found it very surprising how polite and friendly and benevolent the bartenders were towards those people drunk off their asses. Here, it's illegal to serve people who are visibly drunk (the seller's discretion) so they tend to see those people as dead weight so they get a rather belligerent treatment, but in Vegas they just kept pouring them liquor and being friendly. Then again, these guys tipped very generously as well, so no wonder.

The locals that I talked to at the bars (a 'craft' beer junkie that I am, I mainly visited bars that way biased so the clientele was probably different than from other types of bars) seemed to just be there for a couple and then home. But what was surprising to me (I sort of knew about it beforehand, but never really realized before how prevalent it was) was the fact that Scorntyrant touched upon: The driving while under the influence. It's considered a big no-no here, getting you very stigmatized, but there it was commonplace, required even, considering the distances a lot of bars are and all that.

So... A bit off-topic, sorry about that. But generally the view towards alcohol seems to be a lot healthier in the US than in Finland at least. Comparing to continental Europe, one would have to do a lot more research.


I'm sure that the bartenders were nice because they like money. Not to say that they weren't nice people, but customer service goes a long way.

Regarding drinking and driving:

I have no clue what laws are like anywhere outside the US but in my state you can drive with a BAC of .08 or lower. I think this is pretty general across the country (some may be .1). For big guys it can actually take quite a few drinks to hit .1. Technically, judgement is impaired before .1 so I'm not sure why its that high. I know that there are a lot of campaigns against drunk driving ("Drive sober or get pulled over", etc), but I still don't think people understand the severity of drinking while driving. I hear stories all the time of drunk driving related deaths. It seems like if there ever is a major accident, alcohol is involved. I wish the US cracked down a little more because I think it is a serious issue.

On-Topic:

I don't think that alcoholism is idealised more in metal than other genres. Then again, most of the bands I listen too don't touch on it very much. I think rock and country have their fair share of alcohol, as do pop and punk. Is it idealized too much, though? I think that is up to discretion. I don't think people understand alcoholism until it directly affects them. My dad was an alcoholic for many years, so I have a very negative view towards alcohol. Even though I think its serious, I don't think metal has anything to do with alcoholism. Alcoholics come from all walks of life and I think it has more to do with the way people are built. It affects everyone differently. I personally don't know what its like to have an addiction, but I have seen others go through it.

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Burnyoursins
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:59 am
Posts: 953
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:03 pm 
 

It doesn't take any more drinks for big guys to hit .1, it's just that they can generally handle liquor better. And I'll be honest, while I'm not at all supporting anyone's right to drink and drive, I could very easily down 8 or 9 beers and still drive fine. It really depends on the person. Unfortunately, the stories that make the news are the bad ones.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
SleightOfVickonomy wrote:
...no one still knows what it's supposed to be about.

Well, I reckon there's a pretty good chance it'll be about gory tits.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6436
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:12 pm 
 

Burnyoursins wrote:
It doesn't take any more drinks for big guys to hit .1, it's just that they can generally handle liquor better. And I'll be honest, while I'm not at all supporting anyone's right to drink and drive, I could very easily down 8 or 9 beers and still drive fine. It really depends on the person. Unfortunately, the stories that make the news are the bad ones.

Complete bullshit. It's blood alcohol level. How could it not be affected by the amount of blood your body contains, for one thing?

It's common knowledge that greater body mass directly translates to lower blood alcohol content.
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bloodycumshit
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:10 pm
Posts: 495
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:17 pm 
 

Burnyoursins wrote:
It doesn't take any more drinks for big guys to hit .1, it's just that they can generally handle liquor better. And I'll be honest, while I'm not at all supporting anyone's right to drink and drive, I could very easily down 8 or 9 beers and still drive fine. It really depends on the person.


i had been up all night on bzp pills ,drunk 11 440ml cans of 8% pre mix bourbon and got done for one beer over the limit.Tolerance has nothing to do with it.

Quote:
Unfortunately, the stories that make the news are the bad ones.


i let you get away with it ealier..but come on,do you really think that they are going to report that some idiot downed 9 beers and made it home without being pulled up :roll: .Fact is all drink driving is bad, there's no good story's about drink driving, even if no one got hurt they are still risking there's and other peoples lives

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BasqueStorm
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 1941
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:21 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
This may just be a perception thing, BasqueStorm. A lot of North Americans come back from Europe amazed, astonished at the prevalence of alcohol there. Stories about home dinners routinely being served with copious amounts of wine, for instance. Like it's a fucking holiday when we're just in the middle of the week :p
The alcohol may just be served at different time, different places and different ways. But I've yet to find one North American telling me: Gee, I sure had a lot of problems finding a shitload of alcohol in Germany/Italy/France :p

Yeah, I understand but I think we are more permissive generally but have better limits for the worst scenarios.

godsonsafari wrote:
[The Wire video]

That made me immediately think about that video.
What an hypocrite society!
That's what I was trying to say.

Burnyoursins wrote:
And I'll be honest, while I'm not at all supporting anyone's right to drink and drive, I could very easily down 8 or 9 beers and still drive fine. It really depends on the person. Unfortunately, the stories that make the news are the bad ones.

Yeah, but... you should NOT. Do you know what would your insurance company tell you in case of an accident (even if nobody would get hurt)? That's REALLY serious.

Ilwhyan wrote:
Complete bullshit. It's blood alcohol level. How could it not be affected by the amount of blood your body contains, for one thing?

I agree. It depends of your weight, sex, tolerance to alcohol,...

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Burnyoursins
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:59 am
Posts: 953
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:36 pm 
 

Alright, sorry, I wasn't thinking. Yes, body weight does indeed affect your BAC. However, tolerance does not. Also, I am not at all cool with drunk driving. I was just saying that depending on the person, you could probably very well drive fine after a few beers or so. Obviously they shouldn't cut down on arresting drunk drivers, regardless of their tolerance, my point was that a large majority of the population could probably drive absolutely fine with a BAC of 0.05. It's actually 0.05 here, now. Which in any average sized person is around two beers. Which I personally think is a little ridiculous, how many people are truly intoxicated after two beers? Not a very high percentage. Obviously if the cops catch you, and you're over the limit, they'll book you regardless of how intoxicated you really are. But I'm assuming that if you're driving like you should, and you don't reek of liquor, you probably won't get pulled over. Just saying. There's a difference between drunk driving, and driving after having two or three beers. Now, I'm not saying go out, down three beers in rapid succession, and go start your car.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
SleightOfVickonomy wrote:
...no one still knows what it's supposed to be about.

Well, I reckon there's a pretty good chance it'll be about gory tits.

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kapala
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:56 pm
Posts: 156
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:52 am 
 

Burnyoursins wrote:
Alright, sorry, I wasn't thinking. Yes, body weight does indeed affect your BAC. However, tolerance does not. Also, I am not at all cool with drunk driving. I was just saying that depending on the person, you could probably very well drive fine after a few beers or so. Obviously they shouldn't cut down on arresting drunk drivers, regardless of their tolerance, my point was that a large majority of the population could probably drive absolutely fine with a BAC of 0.05. It's actually 0.05 here, now. Which in any average sized person is around two beers. Which I personally think is a little ridiculous, how many people are truly intoxicated after two beers? Not a very high percentage. Obviously if the cops catch you, and you're over the limit, they'll book you regardless of how intoxicated you really are. But I'm assuming that if you're driving like you should, and you don't reek of liquor, you probably won't get pulled over. Just saying. There's a difference between drunk driving, and driving after having two or three beers. Now, I'm not saying go out, down three beers in rapid succession, and go start your car.


It's not about whether or not you're truly intoxicated after a beer or two, it's that you've drank some kind of alcohol, and got behind the wheel. There's a huge cultural difference between North Americans, and Europeans, especially Northern Europeans, on this kind of thing. "Just having a few" and driving is 9 times out of 10, not tolerated here at all. If you plan on drinking, you simply make other arrangements.
And "driving fine" is relative. You think you're driving fine, between the lines, but you're really going 97km/h on the gravel shoulder.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6436
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:57 am 
 

Burnyoursins wrote:
Alright, sorry, I wasn't thinking. Yes, body weight does indeed affect your BAC. However, tolerance does not. Also, I am not at all cool with drunk driving. I was just saying that depending on the person, you could probably very well drive fine after a few beers or so. Obviously they shouldn't cut down on arresting drunk drivers, regardless of their tolerance, my point was that a large majority of the population could probably drive absolutely fine with a BAC of 0.05. It's actually 0.05 here, now. Which in any average sized person is around two beers. Which I personally think is a little ridiculous, how many people are truly intoxicated after two beers? Not a very high percentage. Obviously if the cops catch you, and you're over the limit, they'll book you regardless of how intoxicated you really are. But I'm assuming that if you're driving like you should, and you don't reek of liquor, you probably won't get pulled over. Just saying. There's a difference between drunk driving, and driving after having two or three beers. Now, I'm not saying go out, down three beers in rapid succession, and go start your car.

Extensive testing has show even the miniscule amount of 0,5 per mil (2-3 beers depending on the person) to have drastic effects to reaction speed. The driver won't be intoxicated and will not have considerably impaired judgment, but his attention and reactions will suffer from even just that. The increased feeling of wellbeing may also cause other effects depending on the individual's psyche, such as more aggressive and risky driving.

Oh, and tolerance chiefly means your liver's ability to burn alcohol.
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GTog
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:35 pm
Posts: 410
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:45 pm 
 

I just got done reading Bringing Metal to the Children, a book full of anecdotes from Zakk Wylde about this and that. The entire book glorifies drinking to no end. Not a single fun time is had without it, allegedly. Tens of thousands of dollars per month spent on booze while on the road. Nothing happens in moderation - all drinking bouts are extremely heavy and go on all night. There are tales of wanton destruction, life threatening shenanigans (literally), drunken driving, and ha ha fun had by all. And this from a guy who:

1) Is a raging alcoholic, who has been to and failed rehab for it
2) Was fired by Ozzy Osbourne (of all people!), or more likely Sharon, for his drinking
3) Had been in knock down drag out bloody fights with his wife, occasionally in front of his children
4) Never ever learned. The story is he only stopped because of blood clots, and you can't take medication for that and drink and live.

But none of that is in the book. Just good times. Even the time when he had buddies over and his wife rounded up the kids and left to stay in a hotel is treated like a typical funny tale of Rock 'n' Roll debauchery. So does metal glorify alcoholism? I don't know, but Zakk Wylde certainly does.

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FengisRipRider
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:31 pm
Posts: 68
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:08 pm 
 

I think what you are seeing is simply an idealism of alcoholism in human society not necessarily just in heavy metal. Since the people who play heavy metal are a part of human sociey, even if some of them say they are on the fringe, then it is to be expected that they therefore will often echo the ideals of the society.

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somberlain93
I'm not sexist, I have binders full of women friends!

Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:20 am
Posts: 50
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:21 pm 
 

Absolutely.

But it's common in society in general. I think it's lame as fuck, myself. If you want to drink (or get high or whatever else) do it. That's your business. But the entire thing about having to talk about it and glorify it and make it sound cool is just beyond fucking stupid.

Drink till you die for all I care, but shut the fuck up about it. No one is impressed with your ability to put a container to your lips and swallow, other than similar numbskulls.

This whole BEER = METAL shit is the equivalent of rap music talking about smoking marijuana. It's annoying and totally without substance. And for the bands, if the best you can do is write lyrics about how drunk you got, better spend more time sober and see if you have an intelligent thought to write about instead.
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bloodycumshit
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:10 pm
Posts: 495
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:49 am 
 

somberlain93 wrote:
Absolutely.

But it's common in society in general. I think it's lame as fuck, myself. If you want to drink (or get high or whatever else) do it. That's your business. But the entire thing about having to talk about it and glorify it and make it sound cool is just beyond fucking stupid.

Drink till you die for all I care, but shut the fuck up about it. No one is impressed with your ability to put a container to your lips and swallow, other than similar numbskulls.

This whole BEER = METAL shit is the equivalent of rap music talking about smoking marijuana. It's annoying and totally without substance. And for the bands, if the best you can do is write lyrics about how drunk you got, better spend more time sober and see if you have an intelligent thought to write about instead.


well said, completely agree

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BasqueStorm
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 1941
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:06 am 
 

somberlain93 wrote:
Absolutely.
But it's common in society in general. I think it's lame as fuck, myself. If you want to drink (or get high or whatever else) do it. That's your business. But the entire thing about having to talk about it and glorify it and make it sound cool is just beyond fucking stupid.
Drink till you die for all I care, but shut the fuck up about it. No one is impressed with your ability to put a container to your lips and swallow, other than similar numbskulls.
This whole BEER = METAL shit is the equivalent of rap music talking about smoking marijuana. It's annoying and totally without substance. And for the bands, if the best you can do is write lyrics about how drunk you got, better spend more time sober and see if you have an intelligent thought to write about instead.

I agree but do you realize that's made because it actually works? I mean, it's lame and stupid as fuck but it works for certain public (which, by the way, is quite big).
That happens when you have a passive public (which will accept any new idea presented as cool) and not a critic one.

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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 4276
Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:15 am 
 

somberlain93 wrote:
Drink till you die for all I care, but shut the fuck up about it.

No, I prefer my Tankard as it is, thankyouverymuch.
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TheUglySoldier
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 3:44 am
Posts: 1675
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:53 am 
 

It is funny, because I never really connected the dots. I make a rule NOT to get drunk when I go and see an international act at a bigger venue, but when bands play in bars, I tend to be a bit looser with the amount I'll drink - sometimes it'll only be two or three, but sometimes I go all out, it just depends, but it is rare for me to go to a smaller gig and not have a drink, but I see this as being simply because the gigs are in bars. Regardless, when I was talking to a mate about how one of the promoters was saying he thinks it'd be cool for more bands to play all ages gigs to get a much more happening scene around here, and how I thought it was a great idea, he said "yeah, but metal is pretty heavily tied to beer", and I was completely dismissing of it at first, I'd never really seen it as such.

So perhaps, at least in the live setting, it has a lot more to do with where you are - but I never listen to death, black, doom or power metal and get an image of dudes getting hammered or anything - I was actually kinda taken a back when I saw a Candlemass DVD and saw Vikström with a beer in hand, but other bands, mainly thrash and traditional, give me that kinda vibe.

In short, it is perhaps a factor as much as chains and spikes - whilst some will adopt it as part of the whole thing, others won't at all. The music is metal, the image and the beverage are part of it for some, but not all.

As for the off topic about drink driving, without getting too preachy - I really, really despise the entire notion of driving under the influence. If you are gonna drink, don't drive. Not a difficult concept.
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Ancient_Mariner
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:20 pm
Posts: 322
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:03 pm 
 

DeathForBlitzkrieg wrote:
It seems like there's no decent drinking culture in the US (the local Australian pub described above seems rather familiar to me on the other hand), either people stay sober or get completely shit-faced. Well, probably that's what you get when your father takes you to the shooting range instead of drinking your first beer with you to show you what "drink responsibly" means.


I don't think that is true. There are dive bars, where you can pretty much only get American mass produced beers at a low price, and they cater to the lets get totally fucking ripped and hopefully get in a fist fight types. Then you have bars and pubs where better quality beers are served, often along with crap no doubt, and the atmosphere is totally different. I hang out at a bar/brewery that only serves their own beers and 90% of the people are there to drink 3-4 craft brews, talk, maybe eat, and sometimes listen to some music or watch a sporting event. Rarely do you get the shitfaced types there execept on Friday and Saturday nights but even those are not that common since they are usually looking for cheap tasteless swill to hammer back. There are more and more of these places popping up in my city, granted a lot more dives but the ratio is getting better.

I think some beers and live music go together great, especially energetic music like metal. Loosens me up and gets me in a more upbeat mood, but I'm not a violent person so i'm not a drunk looking to fight. Drinking until you black out kind of defeats the purpose of seeing a band play but I'll admit its happened to me on occasion. I usually just put on a nice buzz, then when I get home we will crank some music and get shitfaced if its not a work night.

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TheUglySoldier
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 3:44 am
Posts: 1675
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:17 pm 
 

Ancient_Mariner wrote:
I think some beers and live music go together great, especially energetic music like metal. Loosens me up and gets me in a more upbeat mood, but I'm not a violent person so i'm not a drunk looking to fight. Drinking until you black out kind of defeats the purpose of seeing a band play but I'll admit its happened to me on occasion. I usually just put on a nice buzz, then when I get home we will crank some music and get shitfaced if its not a work night.


I'm similar sometimes, although if the gig finishes early enough, I'll keep drinking with my mates afterwards, depending on how much money I've decided to spend that evening, and whether or not I need to get home (I live in a suburb that after a certain time is a bitch to get back to from the middle of the city, but sometimes I'll be able to split a cab with someone, or crash at someone's house, otherwise I'm not silly enough to stay out too late).
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