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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:41 pm 
 

Is dishonest since they blatantly pick old songs structures and write "new" riffs over them. I was reminded of N.I.B, S/T, Planet Caravan... c'mon. They are appealing to the nostalgia factor to make the album enjoyable but not for what it is, but for we're reminded listening the album.

At least TDYK sounded fresh enough, they didnt tweak an old song and put it a new name.
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ArcticSwarm
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Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 3:21 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:27 pm 
 

So, if the album is a purposeful throwback piece, it's dishonest? If that is the type of album that they actually wanted to make, it's dishonest? If the songs are intentionally reminiscent of the old style or particular old songs, that's dishonesty at work? If a band wants a specific feel or sound to a record that happens to be like their original sound, that's automatic dishonesty?

I'm not seeing dishonesty here, necessarily. Call it a rehash, self-tribute, or hell even self fucking parody but I think dishonesty is not the correct description.

Since when are bands at this level paragons of honesty anyfuckingway? When Sabbath had nine foot tall cock rock hair in the mid-eighties, were they being honest then? There were a couple of songs on Eternal Idol that could have been on a cock rock record. Was Tony being honest then, or was he doing that shit because it was popular at the time?

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Crick
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:30 pm 
 

Before you go spouting all the bullshit rhetorical questions, again please bear in mind that Rubin literally told them to write material that sounded like this. There's obviously always a chance they wanted to do that anyway, but it was far from a natural, uninfluenced choice.
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ArcticSwarm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:38 pm 
 

Crick wrote:
Before you go spouting all the bullshit rhetorical questions, again please bear in mind that Rubin literally told them to write material that sounded like this. There's obviously always a chance they wanted to do that anyway, but it was far from a natural, uninfluenced choice.


I'm pretty sure they knew what they were getting when they hired Rubin. Rubin had been after Sabbath to make a 70's sounding record for YEARS. I remember that Ozzy was thinking about going with Rubin for one of his solo records way back when (maybe No More Tears era?) and he didn't end up working with Rubin because Rubin wanted Ozzy to make a "Sabbath in the 70's" sounding record. I don't have a link to this info I just remember reading it somewhere long ago.

It's not like they hired Rubin thinking "hmm wonder what kind of input he's going to have." I'm pretty sure they knew what kind of record they were going to make.

As for natural, uninfluenced choices, I don't think a lot of bands working on the corporate dime make too many of those. Sabbath or otherwise, the record company masters usually get their say.

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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:25 pm 
 

After getting my copy earlier today, I must say that my biggest issue with this album is actually the track listing. God Is Dead? would've been fine as the opener, End Of The Beginning probably could've been a closer, and a few of those bonus tracks really could've broken up some of the monotony. I still don't get why Methademic, Peace of Mind or Naivete in Black didn't make it onto the actual album. Did they just not sound throw-backy enough? It honestly wouldn't surprise me if they were originally intended for a Heaven And Hell followup...

Either way, the individual songs will likely grow on me even more but I still like The Devil You Know better. Listened to them both today and there is such a world of difference in terms of variety and passion.
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Kveldulfr
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:00 pm 
 

ArcticSwarm wrote:
Crick wrote:
Before you go spouting all the bullshit rhetorical questions, again please bear in mind that Rubin literally told them to write material that sounded like this. There's obviously always a chance they wanted to do that anyway, but it was far from a natural, uninfluenced choice.


I'm pretty sure they knew what they were getting when they hired Rubin. Rubin had been after Sabbath to make a 70's sounding record for YEARS. I remember that Ozzy was thinking about going with Rubin for one of his solo records way back when (maybe No More Tears era?) and he didn't end up working with Rubin because Rubin wanted Ozzy to make a "Sabbath in the 70's" sounding record. I don't have a link to this info I just remember reading it somewhere long ago.

It's not like they hired Rubin thinking "hmm wonder what kind of input he's going to have." I'm pretty sure they knew what kind of record they were going to make.

As for natural, uninfluenced choices, I don't think a lot of bands working on the corporate dime make too many of those. Sabbath or otherwise, the record company masters usually get their say.


Man, that's bullshit. Iommi has been carring the Sabbath flag for decades and he wasn't in need of a guy who tells him how he should make an album, AT ALL. Rubin can tell Metallica guys that were lost and far from metal too long how they could get back into it, but Iommi? man, The Devil You Know was Iommi doing his thing cause he simply wanted and the results are obvious: it's a crushing album with tons of energy and has a great feel; not every song is a rip off of their debut; Iommi clearly experimented with things and even included some pretty hard rockers on it. It was clear he didn't want to prove he was the king of doom, that came naturally from him there - just listen the verse riff of Follow the Tears. That riff alone is heavier than the entire 13 album. Hell, even th production feels more natural, as the guitar tone in TDYK is more dirty than 13 but worked perfectly.

Now Iommi was told something like: man, you're the riffmaster, the godfather of doom metal. Make an album that shows that, based on your debut album, 40 years ago. He did it but at what cost? to rip off himself, like never did. Rubin crushed Iommi's songwriting skills by limiting him to write something that he already did decades ago and better. Why in hell Iommi accepted something like that? Why he didn't sent to hell to the guy, limiting his actions to the soundboard and letting him to deal with the music, as has been from the very beginning of the band?

I'm sure at least 2 of the bonus tracks were intented for Heaven and Hell. Methademic just screams the soaring vocals of Dio. Naivety in Black probably was the other one.
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ArcticSwarm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:22 pm 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
Man, that's bullshit. Iommi has been carring the Sabbath flag for decades and he wasn't in need of a guy who tells him how he should make an album, AT ALL. Rubin can tell Metallica guys that were lost and far from metal too long how they could get back into it, but Iommi? man, The Devil You Know was Iommi doing his thing cause he simply wanted and the results are obvious: it's a crushing album with tons of energy and has a great feel; not every song is a rip off of their debut; Iommi clearly experimented with things and even included some pretty hard rockers on it. It was clear he didn't want to prove he was the king of doom, that came naturally from him there - just listen the verse riff of Follow the Tears. That riff alone is heavier than the entire 13 album. Hell, even th production feels more natural, as the guitar tone in TDYK is more dirty than 13 but worked perfectly.

Now Iommi was told something like: man, you're the riffmaster, the godfather of doom metal. Make an album that shows that, based on your debut album, 40 years ago. He did it but at what cost? to rip off himself, like never did. Rubin crushed Iommi's songwriting skills by limiting him to write something that he already did decades ago and better. Why in hell Iommi accepted something like that? Why he didn't sent to hell to the guy, limiting his actions to the soundboard and letting him to deal with the music, as has been from the very beginning of the band?

I'm sure at least 2 of the bonus tracks were intented for Heaven and Hell. Methademic just screams the soaring vocals of Dio. Naivety in Black probably was the other one.


What was bullshit that I said exactly? All I was saying was that I think they hired Rubin because he would facilitate the kind of record that they ALREADY wanted to make with Ozzy. It was not a secret at all that Rubin loved old Sabbath and wanted to produce a record with them sounding like that.

It is much more realistic to me that they knew that going in and hired him specifically for that reason. I find it difficult, nearly fucking impossible, that they wanted to do something else and Rubin's speech about sounding like the first record corrupted Iommi's songwriting. Ozzy is indeed a bumbling fucking idiot, but Iommi and Butler are not. They got exactly what they wanted out of Rubin I think, not the other way around.

Anyway, weren't most of these riffs already written before they even went into the studio with Rubin? I thought I read that somewhere anyway.

For what it's worth, I love TDYK too man. I like 13, but it's not nearly as good as TDYK. But I think Tony got what he wanted out of this album. And they are going to get a nice send off, probably with pretty kick ass record sales (for the modern era) and a very successful tour. And they deserve every bit of that. But I'll always think Mob Rules is their best record. :)

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controlledbleeding
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Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 8:26 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:31 pm 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
Man, that's bullshit. Iommi has been carring the Sabbath flag for decades and he wasn't in need of a guy who tells him how he should make an album, AT ALL. Rubin can tell Metallica guys that were lost and far from metal too long how they could get back into it, but Iommi? man, The Devil You Know was Iommi doing his thing cause he simply wanted and the results are obvious: it's a crushing album with tons of energy and has a great feel; not every song is a rip off of their debut; Iommi clearly experimented with things and even included some pretty hard rockers on it. It was clear he didn't want to prove he was the king of doom, that came naturally from him there - just listen the verse riff of Follow the Tears. That riff alone is heavier than the entire 13 album. Hell, even th production feels more natural, as the guitar tone in TDYK is more dirty than 13 but worked perfectly.

Now Iommi was told something like: man, you're the riffmaster, the godfather of doom metal. Make an album that shows that, based on your debut album, 40 years ago. He did it but at what cost? to rip off himself, like never did. Rubin crushed Iommi's songwriting skills by limiting him to write something that he already did decades ago and better. Why in hell Iommi accepted something like that? Why he didn't sent to hell to the guy, limiting his actions to the soundboard and letting him to deal with the music, as has been from the very beginning of the band?

I'm sure at least 2 of the bonus tracks were intented for Heaven and Hell. Methademic just screams the soaring vocals of Dio. Naivety in Black probably was the other one.


i like this post!!!!!!!!!!

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DoomMetalAlchemist
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:17 am 
 

Ok, after initial listen, my thoughts are this, and they disagree GREATLY about what's been said here:

A. It's a good album. Not great, but thoroughly enjoyable, and I am happy with Ozzy's vocals. I would say the only truly weak track is Age of Reason. The bonus tracks are mostly sub-par though. Methademic, and especially Peace of Mind started out strong, but they wore out their welcome before ending. Pariah was the best of them, being good throughout. Naivete in Black was pretty blah throughout. Rubin made the right choice by not including theses four songs on the normal album. All in all, I'd say it's the best album IOMMI HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN AT ALL, not just Sabbath, since Cross Purposes.

B. It doesn't sound much like 70s Sabbath at all. I was actually DISAPPOINTED that it DIDN'T sound enough like old Sabbath to me. The riffs for instance, are much more 2000 and later Iommi. There's ONE riff that I would say they self plagiarized from the 70s, and that one I believe was on Dear Father, the source riff is in War Pigs before the "Politicians hide themselves away" part. Then of course there's the famous "Hole in the Sky" type riff in God is Dead, but I think it's a stretch to call it self plagiarizing. There are more moments of 70s like riffs, but they are not familiar ones, and they are not really important ones, often relegated to pre-choruses.

C. I think it's WAY better than The Devil You Know. Let's get something straight here, Black Sabbath is my all time favorite band, since I first discovered them in 1996, with only about a year and a half in high school where they fell to number 2 after Metallica. The reasons they are my favorite band is for both the Ozzy era and the Dio eras. My three favorite Sabbath albums are Black Sabbath, Paranoid, and Master of Reality (chronologically, not necessarily in order of preference). My next three favorite Sabbath albums, are Heaven and Hell, Mob Rules, and Dehumanizer (again, chronologically, not in order of preference). When Ozzy got back together with Sabbath in 1997-1999, and it was announced they'd make a new album, I was so stoked. Hell, I even liked Psycho Man and Selling My Soul. Then Ozzy pulled out of the reunion, and I was heartbroken. This happened again in 2001. Then I think it happened again, maybe around 2005. At this point, I was like "fuck Ozzy, let's get Dio back in the band!" And then in 2006 or 2007 it was announced Ronnie would get back together with Tony and Geezer, and write a few new songs for an up coming Sabbath comp. I was so excited. When The Dio Years came out, and I listened to the new songs, I was not disappointed. The Devil Cried, and especially Shadow of the Wind rocked my world. Ear in the Wall was less impressive. But like many fans, I was clamoring for a full on Dio-era reunion with a whole new studio album. And I got my wish. I was on cloud 9! And when I finally got The Devil You Know... It was the second most disappointing album in my entire life, only bested in that category by St. Anger. It was just so damn BORING. The only songs I liked AT ALL were the two up tempo ones (Eating the Cannibals and Neverwhere, I believe). I listened to that album every day for like the first month I had it, hoping it would get better with repeated listens. It did not. I have listened to it a few times again in pretty stretched out intervals, and it STILL doesn't get better.

D. I've already established that this whole "rehashing old Sabbath" thing is nonsense to me. But even if I agreed that they were, the problem I have with you guys is this: Sabbath are being absolutely PANNED across the board for copying their old music. However, in other threads, everyone is sucking Orchid's dick for the exact same reason 13 is getting panned: Sabbath plagiarism! Why is it not only ok, but GREAT, for Band A to BLATANTLY, like no other band before, rip off Band B's music, and yet if Band B looks to their own old music for inspiration, they get chastised? Don't you realize how fucking little sense that makes? And the fact that Orchid is ripping off Sabbath like 10x more than Sabbath is ripping themselves off makes this all the worse.

/rant over.

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MrMcThrasher II
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:04 am 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
Is dishonest since they blatantly pick old songs structures and write "new" riffs over them. I was reminded of N.I.B, S/T, Planet Caravan... c'mon. They are appealing to the nostalgia factor to make the album enjoyable but not for what it is, but for we're reminded listening the album.

At least TDYK sounded fresh enough, they didnt tweak an old song and put it a new name.

Holy shit, HOW does this logic make any sense? 3/4 of the original lineup came together to write this new album, and you're hating it because it sounds like 3/4 of the original lineup came together to write this new album. It doesn't MATTER if it sounds like old Black Sabbath or like some of their old popular songs, how about actually listening to the songs and judging them on their own merit?
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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:20 am 
 

@DMA: Whatever happened to your ears, man? There are dozens of riffs lifted straight from old Sabbath albums, with a minor change here and there, on this album, and even if you really can't hear them (I don't believe that, though), well, a number of them were spotted and described in this here thread already. Not just the "Hole in the sky" quotation and the one of the "War Pigs" ones that you happen to have noticed. Starting with the most obvious of all: how "End of the Beginning" is a parody of "Black Sabbath", the song. You're obviously in denial, friend.

@MrMcThrasher II: Well, I see you conveniently skipped my long post explaining and further demonstrating the Death Magnetic Syndrome to you. "tl;dr", I take it? That would sit well with your repetitive unfounded arguments, here. Here's something short for you to read: copying and pasting your own works and calling the result new is only marginally more honest and interesting than doing it with the work of somebody else (the big difference is on a legal perspective, not a creative one). If you not only accept but expect an artist to self-plagiarize extensively, that's your right, but you should understand that other people aren't interested in that. It's not that hard to get, man, come on.

On a side note, of course Rubin didn't manipulate the band into doing this. Anyone believing this is delusional. The main reason they ended up doing this self-parody in the first place, as previously mentioned, is because of The Osbournes, the long-standing legal disputes, and this album is the "compromise" they agreed upon (actually Sharon & Ozzy totally won, since they effectively neutralized Sabbath). This includes closing the door on Bill Ward's face and hiring Rubin, limiting themselves to stuff Ozzy could (with a lot of takes and processing) sort of follow, and most importantly: the whole bullshit propaganda this album was born to support: that Sabbath is only the real thing with Ozzy, and that all of the great stuff the band did from 1980 to 2009 should be ignored and discarded. That's the issue and it's pretty obvious. Frankly, if I were in Tony Iommi's shoes, I don't think I would be very inspired to compose great new riffs for this shit. I might be willing to take the piss on the whole thing by offering quickly reworked versions of old riffs too, come to think of it.
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DoomMetalAlchemist
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:29 am 
 

LegendMaker wrote:
@DMA: Whatever happened to your ears, man? There are dozens of riffs lifted straight from old Sabbath albums, with a minor change here and there, on this album, and even if you really can't hear them (I don't believe that, though), well, a number of them were spotted and described in this here thread already. Not just the "Hole in the sky" quotation and the one of the "War Pigs" ones that you happen to have noticed. Starting with the most obvious of all: how "End of the Beginning" is a parody of "Black Sabbath", the song. You're obviously in denial, friend.


Upon second listening, I did hear that, but only after listening for it. The song Black Sabbath is the prototypical doom metal song, so you're going to be reminded of it A LOT in most doom metal anyway. One of them people talk about, Loner being an N.I.B. rip off is ridiculous, the only similarity is that the first two chords of the riff are the same as each other. Zeitgeist is similar in style to Planet Caravan, but not the same. I don't see what's wrong with doing two spacey acoustic songs. Did Cathedral rip off Planet Caravan when they did Astral Queen? It's basically the same style and atmosphere, but it's a different song. It's one of my favorite Cathedral songs. No one accused them of ripping off Planet Caravan.

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:38 am 
 

LegendMaker wrote:

I guess I sort of see where Riffs is coming from about '13' (hopefully everybody sees where the riffs on '13' came from by now haha), taking into account the fact that, for reasons we better not waste time arguing over yet again, he remains unappreciative of the Martin-fronted albums and TDYK. In this context, since it's the first time Sabbath releases something he doesn't openly dislike in 21 years, the 'Death Magnetic' syndrome fully works its "magic" (as in magic tricks, not magic force) on him. I get it, but I also suspect a few dozen listens from now, just hearing the stripped-down, lifeless, impossibly repetitive and derivative intro to "God is Dead?" should see the "for fuck's sake, Sabbath is This?" realization catching up with him. All in due time, gentlemen. Of course, you can greatly speed up this process by simply going through the following, very short playlist: "War Pigs", "Falling off the Edge of the World", "God is Dead?". Similar 2-3 songs long, delusion-shattering, bubble-bursting playlists available for basically every single track off of '13'. :D


That's incredibly dishonest because it assumes I am coming at this from an angle that's different from TDYK, when it's pretty clear I like the Dio era just as much as the Ozzy era. It's kind of strange to assume I didn't have the "Death Magnetic syndrome" for TDYK... considering it had been 17 years since Sabbath's last album I truly appreciated. While we're at it, it's also strange I didn't have the Seath Magnetic syndrome for... Death Magnetic, considering Metallica is a band I regard as highly as Sabbath.

It's also condescending because it assumes I'm the kind of guy who changes his mind all the time and doesn't know what he likes, which I'm not. I'M well aware of Sabbath's classic catalog, as I've been listening to it more than anything else for decades, thank you very much. It's not gonna shatter anything, because I'm not under any "delusions". I just happen to appreciate this album for what it is.

Usually, you manage to drive home some interesting points, even when I can't really agree with them. But here, you're fully into condescending psycho-babbling.
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MrMcThrasher II
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:20 pm 
 

LegendMaker wrote:
@MrMcThrasher II: Well, I see you conveniently skipped my long post explaining and further demonstrating the Death Magnetic Syndrome to you. "tl;dr", I take it? That would sit well with your repetitive unfounded arguments, here. Here's something short for you to read: copying and pasting your own works and calling the result new is only marginally more honest and interesting than doing it with the work of somebody else (the big difference is on a legal perspective, not a creative one). If you not only accept but expect an artist to self-plagiarize extensively, that's your right, but you should understand that other people aren't interested in that. It's not that hard to get, man, come on.

I don't expect my bands to "self-plagiarize", I expect good music out of my bands. That's where you're wrong.
Does it REALLY matter THAT much to you that it sounds like their old work? It's a stupid criticism and an invalid one when it comes to reviewing an album. You aren't looking at the music itself; you're obsessed over this "self-plagiarizing". Get over it. Quit being a special snowflake. Listen to the fucking album without thinking about the band sounding like itself. MAYBE you'll get it.
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Crick
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:00 pm 
 

Most of the album is a bore, plagiarized or not. I enjoy End of the Beginning, and God Is Dead?. Loner is decent. Zeitgeist is okay. Then it's all just underwhelming. I don't care if it's a throwback if its good (See: End of the Beginning).
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red_blood_inside
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:29 pm 
 

so, new Paradise Lost is dishonest because it sounds more like Icon than like, let say, Host?, I don´t think so, these bands have earn the right to play the style they want, as long as they make good music. I don´t know what to think about this album, I like better TDYK so far, but Sabbath is Sabbath...
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asmfc
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:54 pm 
 

Yes, but Paradise Lost wrote new songs that happen to be in the style of Icon without "stealing" or rewriting some of their own material. Still the album is just not that good and they should have taken some time to make it better, but they were in a hurry so that's what you get.

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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:42 pm 
 

@DMA: There's plenty more, I assure you. I might give the album another listen soon anyway (thanks, thread!), maybe I'll write them down and post them here while I'm at it.

Regarding your "the same idea vs the same thing" point, that's certainly a valid one and it can be a debate on its own. I really take things on a case by case basis for this. In some cases, even though two riffs/ideas are objectively nearly identical, provided both songs sound genuine, the context can make them work so differently that I don't really notice or mind it (ex: Accept's "Princess of the Dawn" vs Manilla Road's "Helicon"; Dave Mustaine's "Call of Ctulluh" vs "Hangar 18"; Lynott & Moore's "Out in the Fields" vs Kai Hansen's "I Want Out"); in other cases, the opposite happens and no matter how different two riffs/ideas may technically be, I can't help but perceive one as an ersatz of the other, in a bad way, and I lose interest in it (ex: UFO's "Doctor, Doctor" vs Helloween's "Cry for Freedom"; Priest's "Running Wild" vs Maiden's "Wicker Man"; Kai Hansen's "I Want Out" vs most of its dead ringers out there, including a lot by Hansen himself).

I guess the short version is that recycled ideas aren't necessarily an absolute no-no for me, but I'm far less forgiving with recycled material over more genuine, unique stuff. If you're going to recyle stuff, the result better be truly fucking great to make me enjoy it anyway (ex: much of Running Wild's career; most great bands with some rock 'n' roll aspect to them).

Unfortunately, in the case of '13', so far, the album bores me shitless, feels mechanical, sparkless, and it comes across as poorly re-heated left-overs. The recycling is an aggraviting circumstance in my judgment, if you will, not the whole reason I dislike it. Truth be told, there are plenty of quite similar riffs from song to song throughout Sabbath's discography, including on the first classic albums, and it never stopped me from enjoying the shit out of most of it. I can't however, find it in me to take this one seriously.

@Riffs: It was, obviously, not my intention to be condescending with you, man. Sorry if it looked that way. I didn't assume anything about your initial approach to TDYK, I just noted that you dislike it, since I know you do. I also know you're very familiar with Sabbath's back catalog, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I think the main difference between our opinions here might have to do with how badly I take recycled material (when I find it no redeeming values, at least); basically what I wrote above in my reply to DMA. The thing I did assume (I wasn't dead serious about it either, it was a guess) is that it was also the case for you, but that you were temporarily not noticing or minding the recycling as much, possibly being too excited about hearing decent-sounding stuff from those old geezers again. It seems I was wrong in this assumption and that you simply like '13' "for what it is", duly noted, and that's okay. I just can't, in this case.

@MrMcThrasher II: Same thing as to Riffs & DMA, in short. It seems I do mind the recycling more than you, in the case of this particular album, so I can certainly understand if you feel I'm missing out by obsessing over the recycled parts. I guess, since you don't mind the recycling so much, my bringing it up a lot must be a bit annoying to you. Point taken. For the record, though, it's not like I focus on this on purpose, as if I were looking for a reason to dislike the album. I can't help but notice those things, I'm just wired that way, you know... :D But I do understand that it's not necessarily everyone's case, so I should probably tone it down and stop spoiling the fun for those who are liking it, yeah. Okey-dokey.
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red_blood_inside
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:55 pm 
 

asmfc wrote:
Yes, but Paradise Lost wrote new songs that happen to be in the style of Icon without "stealing" or rewriting some of their own material. Still the album is just not that good and they should have taken some time to make it better, but they were in a hurry so that's what you get.

You just said it, is their own material, they can do whatever they want and is not dishonest, lazy perhaps, but if you wrote something decades ago and you like it, why not use it?
By the way, do you like the album?, I like it, not as I expected, but is a fun listen
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TadGhostal
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:17 am 
 

I just got that album. I think it's solid, if unspectacular. My biggest gripe is that they played it way too safe. A lot of the songwriting songs like a band way too conscious of its own legacy. I don't think that writing new songs that feature heavy call backs to "classic" material isn't so much dishonest as it is timid. I wish the band could get together and just write what they want without worrying about their legacy but it isn't going to happen with this bunch. I think Brad Wilk was fine. I would have liked Bill to have been there, but we're all longing for the Bill Ward of 1971. Who knows what the Bill Ward of 2013 would have done? It's not like he's done a ton of drumming outside of the couple of Black Sabbath reunion tours he played on. He doesn't even play drums on his own solo records. My biggest complaint about the drums were their sound, which for me was way too sterile and lacked punch.

I'm kinda surprised by all the love for "The Devil You Know". I found it kinda underwhelming. Musically, I thought it was a bit monotonous, the drumming was very bland (although Vinny claims that was how he was instructed to play), and Ronnie's lyrics were super cheesy a lot of the time. It's my least favorite of the Dio Sabbath records.

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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:42 pm 
 

What, exactly, do you find to be cheesy about Dio's lyrics in TDYK? Because that album arguably contains his bleakest, most dramatic writing.
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TadGhostal
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:13 pm 
 

Well, it's been a while since I listened, so I can't quote exact lines, but stuff like "here comes the slider" and "what if Satan had a daughter" were way cheesy to me. I thought "Bible Black" was really cheesy, too. If you like that, fine, but I thought they were kinda silly.

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asmfc
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Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:24 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:31 pm 
 

red_blood_inside wrote:
asmfc wrote:
Yes, but Paradise Lost wrote new songs that happen to be in the style of Icon without "stealing" or rewriting some of their own material. Still the album is just not that good and they should have taken some time to make it better, but they were in a hurry so that's what you get.

You just said it, is their own material, they can do whatever they want and is not dishonest, lazy perhaps, but if you wrote something decades ago and you like it, why not use it?
By the way, do you like the album?, I like it, not as I expected, but is a fun listen


Well I can't say it is a bad album it give it a 65% maybe, but I still think they did it in a hurry, I mean they didn't have time to wait for Bill so I guess they were in a hurry to release something and that's the main problem with this album. If they had just sat down and really wrote the thing as a band and took their time with it, but maybe it was not meant to be.

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:44 pm 
 

Why would that be? It's Black Sabbath! Not some new band that a record label decided to take a wild chance on. Is there any reason they wouldn't have all the time in the world to record an album if they wanted it?
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asmfc
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:11 pm 
 

Yes and that's the problem with the whole thing, they did have all the time in the world and could have taken it slow and just write a better album, but that's how I see it. They made it easy and just used their own ideas from the past and kind of reworked them and I think that's rushing it. I'm not saying the whole thing is reworked older material, but still an easy and fast way to release an album, something that fans could have waited a few more months

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:35 pm 
 

TadGhostal wrote:
Well, it's been a while since I listened, so I can't quote exact lines, but stuff like "here comes the slider" and "what if Satan had a daughter" were way cheesy to me. I thought "Bible Black" was really cheesy, too. If you like that, fine, but I thought they were kinda silly.


Basically the kinds of lyrics Dio always wrote for them, and for his own band. I don't see how it's any big diversion...plus "cheesy" is just such a vague and meaningless term a lot of the time.

Listened to 13 again the other night. Iommi's guitar work is charming and Ozzy has some fire in his voice at times, but eh, overall not impressed. People who really think this is the best Sabbath since the 70s or their darkest album ever or something, I just don't get that at all. I don't hate it, but it's not worth really getting excited over. It's a very pleasant album to listen to, but really not challenging or that exciting, which is what Sabbath always was on their best material.
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Exigence
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:42 pm 
 

Once again I reiterate....the two tracks Iommi cut with Ian Gillan for WhoCares were fucking awesome. WAY MORE IN LINE with what I was expecting after TDYK - which I thought was massively disappointing just because I swear by Dehumanizer. It has grown on me since but only a few tracks. The two songs from WhoCares though....stellar, just fucking great.

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Ilwhyan
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:03 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
TadGhostal wrote:
Well, it's been a while since I listened, so I can't quote exact lines, but stuff like "here comes the slider" and "what if Satan had a daughter" were way cheesy to me. I thought "Bible Black" was really cheesy, too. If you like that, fine, but I thought they were kinda silly.


Basically the kinds of lyrics Dio always wrote for them, and for his own band. I don't see how it's any big diversion...plus "cheesy" is just such a vague and meaningless term a lot of the time.

Dio had the talent of making even the silliest phrases sound powerful and catchy. Conversely... I don't think anything needs to be said about the charisma of Ozzy's (barely) walking cadaver.
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Riffs
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:12 pm 
 

LegendMaker wrote:
@Riffs: It was, obviously, not my intention to be condescending with you, man. Sorry if it looked that way. I didn't assume anything about your initial approach to TDYK, I just noted that you dislike it, since I know you do. I also know you're very familiar with Sabbath's back catalog, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I think the main difference between our opinions here might have to do with how badly I take recycled material (when I find it no redeeming values, at least); basically what I wrote above in my reply to DMA. The thing I did assume (I wasn't dead serious about it either, it was a guess) is that it was also the case for you, but that you were temporarily not noticing or minding the recycling as much, possibly being too excited about hearing decent-sounding stuff from those old geezers again. It seems I was wrong in this assumption and that you simply like '13' "for what it is", duly noted, and that's okay. I just can't, in this case.


Bah, no worries, Legend. I do enjoy the album more and more. It has surpassed Rotting Christ and now even Voivod on my favorite albums of the year. I haven't enjoyed something this much in a long time. I'm OK with it if others don't. It just seems like you were trying to figure out why I like it and I was taken by surprise. Your opinion on an actual record are usually interesting, though. I doubt you'll change your mind on this one but I can tell you this keeps getting better and better for me with each listen. I'll definitely write a review about this one near the end of the month.
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Misfit74
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:53 pm 
 

I love it. \m/

It feels like Black Sabbath. Despite some possible 'patterning' after older material, the songs are well constructed and really provide a great adventure. Headbanging, groovy parts energize and deliver. It doesn't try to be too dark and evil, but with Ozzy delivering the lyrics it makes me remember the original material even if it's different. The song 'Damaged Soul' is my early favorite. I didn't expect to like this so much, really, but it's great. No complaints from me.
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Ahnenerbe_Werewolf
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:32 pm 
 

Ozzie comes up with some of his best lyrics in years and you guys are bored? The last song on the album is amazing and the bonus CD (not sure how many of you have heard it) is just as good as the album proper. I loved it.

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brandon1986
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:11 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:04 pm 
 

Ahnenerbe_Werewolf wrote:
Ozzie comes up with some of his best lyrics in years and you guys are bored? The last song on the album is amazing and the bonus CD (not sure how many of you have heard it) is just as good as the album proper. I loved it.


ozzy didn't write the lyrics.

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Ahnenerbe_Werewolf
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:57 pm 
 

brandon1986 wrote:
Ahnenerbe_Werewolf wrote:
Ozzie comes up with some of his best lyrics in years and you guys are bored? The last song on the album is amazing and the bonus CD (not sure how many of you have heard it) is just as good as the album proper. I loved it.


ozzy didn't write the lyrics.


Geezer then, fine. Killer lines all over this album. The riffs are xeroxed in many cases, denying that would be silly. If that doesn't work for someone, I can't really fault them. It's a legitimate complaint. But I've been listening to the new record quite a bit and I'm really liking it.


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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:58 pm 
 

The lyrics are pretty good, but it doesn't really help the album for myself or most others. It's still boring.
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Ahnenerbe_Werewolf
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:03 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
The lyrics are pretty good, but it doesn't really help the album for myself or most others. It's still boring.


Yeah, I'm getting that's the general consensus. This reminds me of when Immortal put out All Shall Fall. I remember reading a lot of "All Shall Fail" type reviews, but I thought it killed. Sometimes I go back later and end up agreeing an album is not, in hindsight, the success I originally thought, but usually my original perception holds. Guess my tastes are out of wack. Maybe it's because I'm old and nostalgic :)

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VirginSteele_Helstar
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Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:26 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:02 am 
 

Finally listened to the whole thing today and I hate it. Absolutely loathe it.
"Derivative" and "contrived" are words that slip quickly to mind and I know they've been used by so many others to describe the album. Old Sabbath was fresh and inspired and unorthodox. 13 in comparison sounds like what the suits think modern Sabbath should sound like since the old formula worked so well. It is a shameless copycat of a record that takes no risks and has no real spirit to it.
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Goatfangs
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:48 pm 
 

Saw this article: http://www.nbcnews.com/entertainment/bl ... 6C10441573

Now, typically, a news article on NBC news doesn't bring any new information, however this article mentions that Black Sabbath is already thinking of their next album and they are hoping to get Bill Ward for it.
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red_blood_inside
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:10 pm 
 

Now, after some spins, I have to admint that the album is damn good, but not EPIC, it lacks something, it feels empty at times, but is a good listen, and is good to know they are making anew album, Iommis riffs are always wellcome
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Kveldulfr
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:58 pm 
 

Goatfangs wrote:
Saw this article: http://www.nbcnews.com/entertainment/bl ... 6C10441573

Now, typically, a news article on NBC news doesn't bring any new information, however this article mentions that Black Sabbath is already thinking of their next album and they are hoping to get Bill Ward for it.


Yeah, I remember reading a interview with Ozzy saying how happy was with the album's sellings and given that fact he would try to make another album. If they can make honest music without ripoffing themselves so shamelessly, I'm on it.
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Dandelo
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Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:08 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:20 pm 
 

To me, nothing really stands out on this album. It's not bad by any means, it's just sort of there, in the background, when I listen to it. Nothing makes me go, WOAH HOLY SHIT. I wouldn't be adverse to a few more listens to see if it sinks in more. This is where I'm currently standing with it.

I am really disappointed that we'll never seen another Heaven and Hell disc though, that may have colored my opinion somewhat. I love, love, LOVE The Devil You Know. I think some of the lyrics and delivery are killer on that album. The next one says I wish.....THAT YOU WERE DEAD etc. Big fan of that album.

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