It's kind of impossible to claim some women aren't into metal for attention, and I definitely know one girl that's guilty of this (which was pointed out to me by another girl that likes metal), but is it more than the amount of guys that are into it just to fit in somewhere? I seriously doubt it.

This is why it's so tough for a female performer in a band...the whole 'gimmick' analogy. Concerning extreme vocals, women seem to be placed at a much a higher level of scrutiny than dudes, because of boobs. There are plenty of shitty male growlers out there that don't have to deal with the same level of crap thrown at them. As far as I'm concerned, if I'm at a show and the female growler doesn't cut muster, I'm not going to gripe that a guy should have sung for them...I'll gripe that a better singer should have sung, and at least enjoy the boobs. I'm too old now to give a shit about what some consider to be the scene's integrity values anyways.

As for non extreme female fronted acts, the dynamic is changed to the level of a difference between a guitar solo and a saxophone solo...the notes are the same but the sound is quite dissimilar. Personally I dig the way these retro doom women sing, whether some consider it a gimmick or not. Going back to the origins of this sort of thing, was Grace Slick utilized by Jefferson Airplane as a gimmick? And if so...who gives a shit? Would "White Rabbit" be as iconic and awesome if their male counterpart Marty Balin sang the song instead? FUCK NO.

Well, there are female metalheads who just like the aesthetics and the whole scene without having much music knowledge.
But this applies to men, too. There are many many male metalheads who just like the whole "hell yeah, I listen to THAT FUCKING BRUTAL MUSIC" and brotherhood feeling without having knowledge about the music.

But the "OH MY GOD, IS THIS A VAGINA LISTENING TO MY BELOVED METAL OVER THERE?!?! SHE MUST BE A GODESS" guys make it worse. While some women enjoy the attention they get from some male metalheads. Most female metalheads are annoyed getting labelled as another "Yes I have a vagina and yes, I love metal music <3" attention whore.

No no no no. You got it all wrong. The people who say "I'm not racist, I have black friends", usually do have a black friend or two, or at least a black acquaintance s/he's fond of. But they're still racist. A classic example is a poster on this very forum called Star-Gazer. Though I don't think he denies being racist, to his credit -- unlike you, who denies being sexist despite using clearly and obviously sexist rhetoric and trying to defend yourself with "b-but I respect Jo Bench", as if that made all the rest go away.


What research? The stuff you couldn't be bothered to cite, and which didn't even support your own assertions?

Everyone already knows that. It does prove they're in it for the fashion.


Of course. Your anecdotal, personal experience is "true facts", but each time someone else brings their own anecdotal personal experience, you get to hand-wave it away as "another exception". How convenient.


Pretty much what you've been doing all along, you mean. You haven't addressed a single counter-argument brought forth by various people in this thread. Instead you just whined about being called names and being persecuted and repeated your mix of "facts" with biased rhetoric.

That said, Liquid_Braino, you cannot deny that women are indeed used as a gimmick in metal bands, and relatively often too. The last time I saw a female performing live it was a band called Crossover (supporting for Mayhem). Her role was to provide some lame backing vocals and to dance like a stripper at the front of the stage while wearing sexy torn fishnet clothes.

That example obviously doesn't represent the whole of metal, fuck no. Just saying that OP isn't entirely wrong, even if he's making a huge generalization.

I didn't "criticize" anyone for using anything. I pointed out they do it and that this fits into an aesthetical trend and musical movement designed to convey a specific image, and that it is related to a specific moment in time in music, and to a context.

Plus, what is the problem in having a critical view on what an artist makes while still appreciating what they do? Do I have to worship absolutely everything they do and not question it? Do you live in a world that is THAT black and white and simplistic?

I thought it might be a good time to point out Civil's new title. Haha.

Morrigan, if you have other explanations for the facts I have exposed, besides the "women are the victims of the world", which I have yes, addressed, please give them. I'm very happy to read them.

You are also reacting in an emotional way, and taking the easy route of calling me a bigot, racist, etc, to make a caricature of what I am, yes, calmly, bringing forth with evidence and a reasonable logic.

If you disagree, fine. You don't have to agree with me, and not even have to face reality on any level if you don't feel like it. It is your problem if you do that. Fine.

Calling facts "anectodal" doesn't change the nature of them as facts. I see you and others are trying to use this shorthand. It doesn't really work. What you call "anectodal" is actually "consistent, noticiable, persistent and clear empirical behavior which can be observed time and time again".

You try to diminish the clarity of the facts I point out by calling them "your opinion" or "anecdotes". Again, a dishonest strategy. I have mentioned and explained what I mention clearly. Those who do not wish to see, won't see. Or will pretend they don't.

I'm not "whining" at you, and at others, for calling me names. I pity you for losing your temper and using this strategy and projecting your hate and lack of arguments in the form of name-calling and trying to offend me and distort what I say by labeling me as s woman-hater. It is your loss, and it tells much more about your inabiity to deal with different ideas than it tells something about what I am saying, or, even less, about who I am, since you know very little about me as a person.

I understand that as a woman it is hard to read a critical view of how the majority of your gender behaves in a given setting/situation, it can be uncomfortable and feelings of denial and anger can come up. But I also believe you can deal with this in a more mature fashion which doesn't include distorting arguments, pigeonholing people in "racist" stereotypes, using ad hitlerum arguments and resort to name calling. This is a good tip for you on future debates that may involve emotional subjects.

Going back on topic, all the girls who are into metal that I've spoken to/read their writing point out that they feel uncomfortable or undervalued in the context of metal in a group setting such as a gig.

This can be due a whole number of things like societal gender bias, lack of interest/creative input, some sort of need to feel more important just because they're a girl (i.e. "scene sluts"), etc. "Scene sluts" tend to put off those RARE girls who are actually just there for the music as well. If there is one thing I've noticed in this it's that girls hate other girls, especially ones viewed as 'in their territory'.

Besides the inherent abilties and sensibilites which I believe are radically diferent for women and men, I believe there are a few other reasons for women not to be prevalent in metal:

I think the lack of females in any sort of non-mainstream setting is likely due to a combination of male beliefs on the roles of women (even if the lady from Huntress can sing like a Banshee she is still seen as "just a pair of big tits" and worse, she does nothing by the way she dresses to change that view), territorial behavior on the part of the female who is already in the group and naturally getting more attention because, well 1 girl to every 4 guys most the time, and in the case of metal perhaps a general lack of interest due to societal pressure (i.e. it's ok for a guy to act out and demonstrate a certain amount of aggressive behavior but girls are supposed to be lady like, which metal ain't.)

These factor combined with the inherent nature of men to have the skill and sensibility to become the Charlie Parkers, Hendrixes and Trey Azagtoths of this world, and having the majority of women not having the particular sensibility and ability that leads them to get to those achievements musically, leads to the scenario we have been discussing.

Did you just call women inferior to men when it comes to music? And you still have the balls to say your not a misogynist?

Oh yes, he did.

You really can't stop digging yourself into deeper and deeper holes with every single post here, can you? They probably have a 12 step program for this, I suggest you look into it.

Posers exist.
Female metalheads exist.
Some of these are posers and do it for the attention and the community rather than the music.
Male metalheads exist.
Some of these are posers and do it for the attention and the community rather than the music.

Bo-fucking-ho. I think part of the problem is the amount of press female metalheads get. If a band has a female member they are marketed as such. If a male metalhead sees a female metalhead at a show he'll pay more attention to her than to a male metalhead he doesn't know. This will normally be because the way female metalheads dress is, like their male counterparts, empowering to the individual. To some, I would say less educated, members of our community this could be seen as dressing for attention. I doubt it is in most cases, more just them going to a show where there is a definate empthisis from the music on self-enpowerment and they are dressing for that. Personally I couldn't give less of a fuck what your wearing as long as you know enough about the music and the bands to show you care rather than it just being a fasion statement, no matter what your gender.



Not sure if shows where you are are the same as the ons I attend over here but most of the women I know who are into the music can be as aggressive as any other metal fan. I respect them more for it, its not the 1950s any more. More power to them.

lol. I was right in keeping this thread, the entertainment value is through the roof now.

Seems like you're mistaking contempt and hilarity for anger.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA holy shit, I think I just experienced my first case of mansplaining.

(Btw, still no citation on your "research", eh? Care to even address MacMoney's post? Nah, of course not.)

Is there any way we can sticky this thread permanently so everyone can laugh at it forever?

I'd much rather live on a planet populated entirely by women than men. As this statement is undeniably true, this means that women are better than men.

My above argument has more validity than anything Civil has come up with so far. I've thrown down the gauntlet!

Right, and anyone who uses the term "poser" past high school is beyond childish. I couldn't even read that wall of text he calls "research". Waste of time indeed!

It's also really sad that this Civil fellow cares so much about how people perceive the music and how authentic they are as fans. Why not just stop caring about what other people like and just enjoy the music for yourself instead of worrying about stupid shit like this?

Bo ho indeed.

In regards to sexism in the metal scene, I always think of OzzyApu's review of the newest Rotting Christ album.

I'm pretty sure that in that specific situation, the reason you'd rather live on that planet is probably a little more primitive, namely: women have boobs and vaginas. And that's a point for Civil's argument, really.

Without bringing up any more generalizations, though, I'm convinced that a world populated entirely by women would be just as shitty as one populated by men for just as many reasons.

I won't deny that...in fact that sort of thing goes way back to Black Widow with their faux nude female sacrifice at concerts and Hawkwind with their voluptuous nude dancer on stage. If it works for the visual experience, then I'm down with it, gimmick or not since entertainment is what it is, whether it's fire breathing, stage props, video screens showing weird shit or whatever. In the case of Crossover...that does seem seriously lame...if she doesn't add anything to not just the music, but the kind of vibe the band represents on stage (naked babes and groovy space-rock fits like a glove) then yeah, pathetic.

It can be argued that Mikannibal was hired by Sigh as a sort of gimmick, but does she bring something to their music besides stage presence? Definitely, since she adds another vocal dimension and wails on the saxophone, so I wouldn't be pissy about her being in the band and just enjoy the show.

All that being said...to say women in general are in bands as nothing more than mere gimmicks sounds pretty weak, especially concerning 'clean' singing frontwomen who bring an entirely different aesthetic to the band's sound. In some cases, maybe a dude in a band was better than his female replacement...and in other cases, not. Only an idiot would think that Anneke replacing that idiot singer in The Gathering was a bad move, but yeah, the point is that when the voice is an integral part of the band's sound, it's not a gimmick anymore. If someone hates the way female voices sound, that's fine and their business, but to write them all off as nothing but images for guys to jack off on concerning cover sleeves...that's just stupid.

Funnily enough, I always thought the male vocalist of Lacuna Coil was useless and unnecessary, spoiling the much better female vocals. It's almost like he has the role of the typical female gimmick we're talking about, except he's not a female, and unlikeable for that reason. I think that's proof enough that men can be just as useless in that spot.
(Spare me the 'Lacuna Coil is lame' comments, I've only heard a couple of their songs and I like them).

It is interesting that female vocalists in retro doom bands draw so much ire. Purely concerning demographics, vocal talent in metal bands has almost entirely been drawn from only half of the population, so there is quite a bit of untapped talent there. The configuration of many of these bands is unsurprising, with most of the recently emerging female vocalists being in bands where the existing style utilizes their natural vocal range.

I'm not really a fan of the retro doom trend, I like doom metal but it seems like there are a lot of bands that simply aren't that good. Most of them simply don't have good riffs -bland guitar work that conforms to a certain sound but isn't good enough to drive the music like the great doomsters. Despite this, it seems like the vocalists of bands tend to draw a lot more ire. Plenty of mediocre bands have gotten a fair amount of attention riding a trend (we've seen it with a lot of styles), and they are generally dismissed quite plainly. It seems that here, attention is given to a female vocalist by detractors who notice a band for that, then impose that on others, assuming they only noticed the band because of it. Certainly a generalization, but it's a nasty projection of sexism. It bothers me because we all know the archetype of doom metal, which is Iommi's riffs, not the vocals.

It's OK, y'all... he's not sexist! He respects Jo Bench!

*quick defense*
This is more of an attack at those female vocals and my taste when it comes to female vocals in general. Just throwing that in since it can be interpreted (as you are doing) as me being negative against women in the metal scene.

FWIW, I remember reading this review 2-3 weeks ago and I think people are entitled to prefer one type of vocals over an other and it wouldn't cross my mind to call them sexist for that.

I personally think those vocals fit the album very well, however. And it strikes me as a silly overreaction to call her a cunt in a review.

I was (and still am) really annoyed whenever I hear them on the album, so I just felt like whining at the beginning.

Outside of the use of the word "cunt" (total disrespect to Diamanda Galas, Apu is not even naming her in his review ), it's a fine review, that's his opinion. Keep in mind, I don't like useless vulgarity in reviews.

/end of the discussion about OzzyApu's review, sorry for that!

It angers me more than slightly that the word cunt is being thrown around. Dislike the female vocals, that's fine, but you're being very disrespectful. The 'cunts' Sakis used on Aealo are a real traditional Greek choir, and nowhere else will you find a more genuine incorporation of folk/traditional elements.

As for the Diamanda Galas cover, it certainly takes a little getting used to, but let's not overreact. Even King Diamond sounds like a clown before your ears get accustomed to him. If you looked into her body of work you'd see Galas is a unique and highly interesting artist, something that Sakis recognized. Besides, some context would be helpful; she sings of the destruction of Smyrna and the genocide committed by the Turks.

Of course it is your right to dislike the vocals no matter the context, but your review loses credibility in my eyes and its tone puts off potential listeners (because it is no secret that a lot of users base their purchases/exploration on reviews they read here on MA).

EDIT: I posted this the moment after you said /end discussion, sorry about that.

im actually really interested to read the "research" that civil posted...

What a whole load of shit. Civil needs to get out of the basement and pull his head out his ass. You said yourself you just fucking got into doom and now you're trying to go off on a holier than thou tirade about chicks IN ACTUAL BANDS MAKING DOOM METAL? You have no idea what they like or not so you can't comment at all. Not to mention that Stoner/Doom, as in the Sleep variety that is what is popular has existed for a shorter amount of time, and not mention was niche for awhile as well. And guess what? A lot of these "poser" chicks have been around since before that, before you. If anything, you're just some neckbearded douche bag looking for the attention you think these chicks soley seek by white knighting this bullshit need to keep women out of metal. Like do you think we need you? Do you think were going to look at your ignorant, biased, idiotic opinion and say ..."Yeah! You're right! I totally now see that every girl in metal is just there for her vagina because this English-deprived douchebag who just discovered Saint Vitus said so!"
Who the fuck do you think we are, The Tea Party? Are you actually so mislead and hot for attention that you think you're going to convince us that bands we know better then you do are posers? get the fuck out. Now.

Was this rant totally necessary? Civil, while we disagree with his arguments, hasn't used insults or name calling like you did.

Maybe not, but you can certainly be insulting without using outright insults (which he has). To be honest, I loathe this a lot more, because it's passive-aggressive and cowardly.

But yeah, he's just gonna reply with "See? Your raging female hormones are making you angry instead of calm and rational and coherent like the perfectly balanced male brain I am! I am such a better thinker than you!". xD

This is one of the worst threads on this forum, there is literally nothing constructive to add here. This is 2013, people.

Yeah but it started off about people pretending it's the 70s and went backwards from there.

lol so true

We got some hardcore time-traveling going on here yall.

This should have been locked right away if you ask me

Nobody is asking you, read my post on the 2nd page.

I'm not sure if this is the best thread ever or the worst thread ever. The original argument is perhaps the most bogus thing I've read in a long time. People attracted to doom metal for social status? REALLY!? Such a small segment of the population enjoys heavy music, so who exactly are they trying to appeal to? As far as starting a band- when it is so difficult to make a living off music, would ANYONE really be doing it if they didn't enjoy it? Civil has brought us back to the Civil War era...

Well there is a select group of women who do get into heavy metal for the male attention. I mean, they probably realize that heavy metal music is dominated by men, both musician and fan wise, and any one woman is bound to get a lot of attention in the heavy metal subculture due to this alone.

Personally, I very much wish there were more women into heavy metal, especially extreme metal. I think it's a shame that more women aren't into extreme metal. The women I've met into metal are heavily into it, like it's practically a way of life for them (their knowledge has trumped mine, at least in some areas). I haven't really met any women personally that fit the caricature that Civil is trying to construct. Although, I've heard stories from others that describe women like this. Including from other women. But these women do appear to be exceptions, or at least in the minority.

However, can we really draw any conclusions from just personal anecdotal reports? It doesn't seem like a sufficient enough justification to conclude anything, let alone the things Civil is trying to claim. Now... if someone were to do a serious and wide study on this issue, then that might be worth considering. But honestly, is it really all that important for us to know this? Is it really worth all that effort to see if there are more women posers than male posers? I don't think so... posers exist on both sides of the gender divide, but generalizing that all female metalheads are posers is just absolutely ridiculous. Nothing but outrageously exaggerated hyperbole.

Edit: Also, the women I've met seem to be much more into live shows than the average male metalhead. I mean, I like going to shows on occasion, but normally only if there is a band I really like playing. The women I've met, they love going to... like every metal show within 100 square miles. Why are they doing this? Civil would try to have us believe that it's only for the attention. The truth is that the majority love the music and the experience of seeing that music live, and supporting metal as a whole. But again, this has just been my personal experience with women in metal.

I see the thread as mostly good fun because of its over-the-top nature. I'm personally glad it wasn't locked because sometimes, you need to have this kind of discussion. The thread does highlight that sexism is present in the scene. I kinda wanted to discuss that further but things were so crazy, I finally decided this wasn't the thread for it.

The thing is, I'm not overly concerned whether metal is popular or not. It's not like I have a burning desire to see metal everywhere in the media. But at the same time, I enjoy a vibrant scene and while I don't evangelize and try hard to "make new fans", it PISSES ME OFF when elitists or assholes turn people away. And I think the attitude displayed by Civil and people like him can turn people away. People who could get acquainted with the music, maybe become long term fans and even get involved in the scene.

Civil was right that women are underrepresented in the scene, as fans and musicians. But it's not about vying for equal representation or comparing. I couldn't care less what exact percentage of the scene is made up of females or which group of people contributed more. What matters is that each individual is given the same opportunities, the same respect and consideration regardless of what their background is. When you start focusing on the background to make sweeping generalizations, that's when you're being an asshole.

Metal is a beautiful, rich subculture. Actively turning people off, not to mention perpetuating toxic attitudes like misogyny which affect people a lot more than just in their hobbies, is really shitty.