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Vadara
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 484
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:29 pm 
 

In my experience, vocals tend to be considered a little less important than drums and guitars in metal. One of the most defining traits of early metal, indeed, was how it focused on riffs and solos (which in hard rock were always present, but weren't the core defining pieces of the composition). Of course, metal has invented entirely unique vocal styles, but otherwise it seems that metalheads generally consider the vocals as more the icing on the cake, and not part the cake itself. When I read reviews on this site, I generally notice that they almost always start with describing the guitars, drumming, and overall compositions before they get to vocals. Likewise, each genre has its sort of defined vocal style and bands don't put much of an emphasis on trying to be particularly unique in that regard. Like, there's just this very obviously "tech-death" style that a huge amount of tech-death vocalists use for...some reason. You can just hear it. Do you agree with this, or is this an uncharitable assumption?

This is not to say that metal vocalists are untalented, far from it, mind you.

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snarg
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 4:25 pm
Posts: 469
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:26 pm 
 

I, for one, find that vocals can make or break an album a lot more than any other instrument.

Kroda are the 1st example that comes to mind where i can't enjoy the music because of the vocals alone. The instrumentals are really up my alley.

Not that long ago, i mentioned a german BM band that released an album a few months ago, where i couldn't also enjoy the music because of the vocals and despite some excellent guitars and drums, can't remember the name of the band.

I can't listen to Trash Metal in general mostly because of the vocals as well. Tom Araya specially is probably the only reason i don't listen to Slayer at all.

Most Symphonic and Power metal and those over the top operatic high pitched vocals? Can't stand it. Only reason i have a lot of problems with most Judas Priest, Kind Diamond/ Mercyful Fate songs as well.

Gonna stop here or I'm going to be writing all night.

A little note so i don't get killed in my sleep: not saying all those singers don't have talent, they do, it's just not something i can like no matter how hard I try, and trust me, I've tried and still do now and then.

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lord_ghengis
Still Standing After 38 Beers... hic

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:31 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:20 pm 
 

They're important for... Organising a track I guess I'd call it? Metal by and large is quite a chaotic and overwhelming genre and while the riffs and energy are the big appeal, on their own they would likely turn into a meaningless series of segments, hell it happens all the time already. Vocals just give the songs something more human for the brain to link to and allow the unpredictable song structures and large volume of sections in a song to make sense, as opposed to being the sole hook and source of emotion in the song like a lot of other genres.

Obviously some genres are more verse-chorus driven and rely on sing along vocal hooks, but in so far as "what's the point of death metal bands have grunting or thrash metal bands having shrill yapping dogs", it's the grounding of a riff salad and making the songs feel like "songs".
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MikeyC
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:12 pm 
 

I enjoy the fact that (most) metal music is not vocal-centric like pop music, and the focus is definitely more on the guitars/bass/drums/riffs/atmosphere/whatever. Being drowned in vocals is a bit of a turn-off for me. To this end I agree that the vocals are less important than the other aspects of an album. It's why metal music can get away with instrumental tracks, or entire instrumental albums, and still feel complete.

That said, vocals do have a place and their delivery can still make or break an album. The Body is a great band instrumentally but I would rather my vocals not sound like a chicken, which is why I can't get into them. Early Bethlehem sounds good but everything after Dark Metal is practically unlistenable because of those damn shrieking vocals. So there is still a place for good quality vocals.

Plus some bands like to use good vocalists to their advantage. Anaal Nathrakh obviously like to utiilse the full range of their vocalist. Archspire's machine-gun chopper vocals are also at the forefront of what makes them stand out among their peers. It all depends on what's done with them.
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LycanthropeMoon
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:53 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:36 pm 
 

I mean, I guess it depends on the situation..? I can't stand "Almost a Dance" by The Gathering because of the vocals. I try to look past that aspect and pay attention to the music, but that voice makes it incredibly hard. They're lucky Anekke van Giersbergen joined for their next album. I'd say I can get picky with clean vocal-driven forms of metal, at least. When it comes to extreme metal, I'm less picky. I mean, I like Attila's voice in Mayhem, so... there's that. Weird extreme vocals (like his) can actually add to the atmosphere of the music.

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Wrldeatr
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:13 pm
Posts: 381
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:20 am 
 

True, vocals matter less in metal. Popular music in turn is nearly all about the vocals. I personally don't even pay attention to lyrics in metal.

Vocals can break an album indeed. I love the riffs in power metal and trash, but once they start screaming like chicks in a horror movie, I'm out. Clean vocals are also nearly intolerable to me, unless the music is outstanding (As I Lay Dying for instance). But I don't find that vocals can make an album. The best vocals can't overcome crappy music.

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Rosenthorn
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:51 pm
Posts: 535
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:28 am 
 

In sports, there is a concept known as "floor raising" and "ceiling raising." A "floor raiser" takes a very poor product (or team) and is able to turn it into something decent, but cannot be put on a decent product and elevate it to something great. A "ceiling raiser" is something that cannot make a poor product decent, but elevates a decent product to the next level. Great vocalists are a "ceiling raiser." A band can be extremely tight, have strong riffs and musical performances, but if the vocal talent isn't there, it can hold back the music. A great vocalist can't make shitty music good, but they can make good music even better.
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sjal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:47 am 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
They're important for... Organising a track I guess I'd call it? Metal by and large is quite a chaotic and overwhelming genre and while the riffs and energy are the big appeal, on their own they would likely turn into a meaningless series of segments, hell it happens all the time already.

It looks good in theory, but as someone who tried to get into Spiral Architect, I must clarify that it does not always work for me.
And I also feel that some harsh vocals make a song even more chaotic and unhuman on some dissonant/experimental black metal albums (and, according to some reviews, it makes these albums even more interesting for some listeners).
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Starwind
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:33 am
Posts: 141
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:06 am 
 

MikeyC wrote:
Plus some bands like to use good vocalists to their advantage. Anaal Nathrakh obviously like to utiilse the full range of their vocalist.


I'd argue that a lot of Anaal Nathrakh is almost a vehicle to showcase Dave Hunt, though I haven't spun any of their new stuff since... Vanitas? Their demo material and debut seemed less built around the vocals, though they were definitely still a big part of things even back then. I definitely preferred that stuff though, so take that as you will.

In all I'd argue that vocals are very important in metal. At the very least, bad vocals are. True, there are a lot of unskilled vocalists in metal, but lots of them might have a certain charm or charisma that allows them to pull things off. Now of course, this comes down to personal taste - if someone told me that Sheepdog from Razor was a bad vocalist I couldn't really argue with them, but to my ears he's doing a fine job. I don't really listen to many (or any?) bands who have vocalists I consider bad or irritating though.

I think where metal differs from a lot of genres is where the floor for quality is. For a lot of vocal styles in metal - especially the harsh ones - I'm much more willing to give a pass on average, competent, or plain vocals if the music's good. While that's true of other genres as well to some extent, I feel like I give a lot more leeway to mediocrity in the metal vocal department.

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~Guest 2944
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:17 pm
Posts: 794
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:31 am 
 

I think the vocals can be extremely important in metal. The first example that comes to mind is Judas Priest. Rob Halford defines that band. Although they have been duplicated by people like the Ripper, I believe his vocals are extremely unique. On Unleased in the East, his vibrato and range is insane. Eyeballs popped out of their heads at those shows. Really hard for anyone to duplicate that. It makes it extremely distinct and I feel like they would of never made it in the early days without him. Obviously they would of gone somewhere with the likes of Al Atikins. If it was the exact same lineup, but Al Atkins on vocals there is no way they would sell out stadiums in the early 80s. So yes, vocals can be very important. Dying Fetus, not necessarily, but Judas Priest yes.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:15 am 
 

Vocals are as important as everything else in metal. No the genre isn't focused on them before anything else most of the time - but a good charismatic singer really makes a band go to the next level. It strikes me that it's probably hard to do that, particularly now as so many new bands crop up all over, and so the ones who do get next-level talents are lucky.

I mostly listen to traditional melodic kinds of metal though, and the singers there have more weight. It's also important that they're used right and given vocal lines that fit the music and sync up with everything else. Metal has become a thing where it's usually very tight and put-together, not loose or based on jamming or such things, and so the vocals can be a real powerhouse that elevates everything else when done right. This band Carthagods is a recent example of how good vocals can improve the music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkuE_ktC9d8
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HviteGuden
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:24 am
Posts: 348
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:18 am 
 

Obviously, they are important, but I won't say, that they are more or less important than guitars or drums. All those are like links of a chain - if you take away a one, then the whole system goes down.

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aloof
avant-gardener

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:18 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:01 am 
 

Vadara wrote:
In my experience, vocals tend to be considered a little less important than drums and guitars in metal. each genre has its sort of defined vocal style and bands don't put much of an emphasis on trying to be particularly unique in that regard.


for the life of me, I can't imagine what kind of metal you've been listening to...
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:09 am 
 

snarg wrote:
I, for one, find that vocals can make or break an album a lot more than any other instrument.

Same.

(Not your examples though. All those bands are great and have great vocals. :P Won't kill you in your sleep... for now...)
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Denpafighter978VGCP
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:07 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:53 pm 
 

Vocals are pretty essential to metal IMO. and one of the factors on how I enjoy a certain band or not.

personally tho- All instruments. including vocals decide what makes an album great or not, production also is a factor
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Vadara
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:14 pm
Posts: 484
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:55 pm 
 

aloof wrote:
Vadara wrote:
In my experience, vocals tend to be considered a little less important than drums and guitars in metal. each genre has its sort of defined vocal style and bands don't put much of an emphasis on trying to be particularly unique in that regard.


for the life of me, I can't imagine what kind of metal you've been listening to...


I've sampled a lot of the subgenres, but have listened the most to death, black, and thrash. All three of those genres have a very distinct style to each of their vocals that vocalists in each genre seem to intentionally emulate. Thrash has a harsh hardcore-influenced shout/scream, death obviously has death growls, black has the high-pitched shrieks. Hell, within DM alone, tech-death has a very distinct style of death growl (I've seen reviews on MA lambast tech-death bands for this so it's not just me), and BDM obviously has those weird gurgles/squeals.

This observation of mine has been influenced by metalheads who seem to absolutely ignore the vocals when listening to non-metal and then complain about the instrumentals being boring when the vocals are the point in many such genres. Post-hardcore is mostly chugged power chords and a few simple melodic hardcore riffs, really blowing my mind here. Almost like the point of pxc is the vocals and overly technical instruments would get in the way of that or something!

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snarg
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 4:25 pm
Posts: 469
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:06 am 
 

Vadara wrote:
aloof wrote:
Vadara wrote:
In my experience, vocals tend to be considered a little less important than drums and guitars in metal. each genre has its sort of defined vocal style and bands don't put much of an emphasis on trying to be particularly unique in that regard.


for the life of me, I can't imagine what kind of metal you've been listening to...


I've sampled a lot of the subgenres, but have listened the most to death, black, and thrash. All three of those genres have a very distinct style to each of their vocals that vocalists in each genre seem to intentionally emulate. Thrash has a harsh hardcore-influenced shout/scream, death obviously has death growls, black has the high-pitched shrieks. Hell, within DM alone, tech-death has a very distinct style of death growl (I've seen reviews on MA lambast tech-death bands for this so it's not just me), and BDM obviously has those weird gurgles/squeals.

This observation of mine has been influenced by metalheads who seem to absolutely ignore the vocals when listening to non-metal and then complain about the instrumentals being boring when the vocals are the point in many such genres. Post-hardcore is mostly chugged power chords and a few simple melodic hardcore riffs, really blowing my mind here. Almost like the point of pxc is the vocals and overly technical instruments would get in the way of that or something!

Though I agree with your classification of vocals types within each sub genre, I feel there is a lot more variation that what your post seems to imply.

At least to my ears, very rarely do all (e.g.) Black Metal shrieks sound the same, and in fact i find there is a lot of variations, which leads to the fact that i like some a lot while can't stand others.

Mortuus and Hoest sound nothing alike to me, just to mention a couple.

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interstellar_medium
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:41 am
Posts: 926
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:30 am 
 

last_eulogy wrote:
So yes, vocals can be very important. Dying Fetus, not necessarily, but Judas Priest yes.


I can't imagine Dying Fetus without John Gallagher's vocals =)

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CoconutBackwards
Bullet Centrist

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:02 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:35 am 
 

interstellar_medium wrote:
last_eulogy wrote:
So yes, vocals can be very important. Dying Fetus, not necessarily, but Judas Priest yes.


I can't imagine Dying Fetus without John Gallagher's vocals =)


I never want to hear Dying Fetus as an instrumental band.

That goes with all the metal I listen to. I can't understand what they're saying the majority of the time, but vocals are still an instrument that I need to go along with the music.
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gasmask_colostomy
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 5:38 am
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:03 pm 
 

To put it another way, quite a lot of metal makes good instrumental music in the way that certain genres don't really. When bands write songs, the vocals often take on a high degree of importance (say, 'The Number of the Beast' or 'Seek & Destroy'), but when they are more interested in a composition the vocals are less of a focus; for instance, I would definitely still enjoy 'Wake Up Dead' or 'Hangar 18' without the vocal sections. These are all examples of fairly melodic, classic metal, which tends to emphasize vocals at least equally with guitars and drums, but I think the same is true for extreme genres too.
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HeavenDuff
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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Location: Montréal
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:15 am 
 

Rosenthorn wrote:
In sports, there is a concept known as "floor raising" and "ceiling raising." A "floor raiser" takes a very poor product (or team) and is able to turn it into something decent, but cannot be put on a decent product and elevate it to something great. A "ceiling raiser" is something that cannot make a poor product decent, but elevates a decent product to the next level. Great vocalists are a "ceiling raiser." A band can be extremely tight, have strong riffs and musical performances, but if the vocal talent isn't there, it can hold back the music. A great vocalist can't make shitty music good, but they can make good music even better.


This is pretty accurate. Very true!

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e2128m
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:45 am
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:00 pm 
 

gasmask_colostomy wrote:
To put it another way, quite a lot of metal makes good instrumental music in the way that certain genres don't really. When bands write songs, the vocals often take on a high degree of importance (say, 'The Number of the Beast' or 'Seek & Destroy'), but when they are more interested in a composition the vocals are less of a focus; for instance, I would definitely still enjoy 'Wake Up Dead' or 'Hangar 18' without the vocal sections. These are all examples of fairly melodic, classic metal, which tends to emphasize vocals at least equally with guitars and drums, but I think the same is true for extreme genres too.


This is a good take - there are some bands where I appreciate the vocals being low in the mix and do hear them as a background instrument, but others where the vocals are front and centre.

It just adds another dynamic to the potential variations and combinations available to use / enjoy.

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e_ddi_e
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:00 am
Posts: 614
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:22 am 
 

Imgaine the success of Confessor if they would have another vocalist ...
Now, the Condemned album is still a fantastic album because the songs are so good. But I ignore the vocals and just listen to the drum magic.

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