I've read very interesting comment recently.

" [Kreator is] Along with Sacred Reich the most overrated thrash metal band ever, hyped more for their left-wing politically tinged lyrics and beliefs. Don't believe me? Why was Benediction banned for years from Metal Maniacs magazine by its obnoxious leftist former editor Katherine Ludwig based simply on one of the members being anti-abortion, of course Slayer (see "Silent Scream") had no problems having articles and adverts printed being a major label act,[...] Mille sure hates America except our green dollars of course, Che Guevara wore a rolex and lived in Havana's most luxorious beach front mansion, too...I know the drill well. "

Besides the opinion about Kreator music, what do you think about that Benediction comment? Anyone heard something more about this situation with Metal Maniacs mag?

And looking deeper, is there something like "dominant" ideology in metal music?

Personally i dont know what to think about it. I think that most bands don't give a fuck about ideology in their lyrics. I don't think that tales about dragons, satan, demons, darkness, death can't be related to left wing or right wing politics, BUT, talking about my favourite thrash metal i must say that...

of course, there is a LOT of left-wing groups: Kreator is one of them, Sacred Reich was also veeeeery lefty, Atrophy, Nuclear Assault etc, all had left-leaning philosophies: pro-choice, anti-war, pro-socialist, pro-feminist and very environmentally-aware lyrics.

on the second hand: we have some "conservative", right wing groups - Iced Earth one of them, At War and strong christian thrash scene: Believer, Tourniquet, Deliverance, Vengeance Rising. Of course there is NSBM (but nazism for me is far LEFT ideology) and Rock Against Communism (which unfortunately generally means racism and nazism), but i think that group of right wing bands is smaller.

ok, what do you think about ideology, politics in music? What bands come to your mind when you think about left-wing and right-wing metal (especially thrash) groups? Do you think that there is something like oppression against bands which have "unpopular" beliefs in metal world (like Benediction)?

there is no dominant ideaology in metal at all, I don't think; Metal IS it's own ideology, and is an apolitical one. Sure you have some individuals who might express political viewpoints but not many bands take a strictly political stance, that's more common with hardcore punk bands. In metal, you run the gamut from left wing guys like the Corrosion of Conformity and Napalm Death guys (who used to be hardcore punk) to libertarians (James Hetfield) to conservatives (Bruce Dickenson) to radical right wingers (Varg Vikerness) to CRAZY mentally unbalanced radical right wingers (Mustaine.)

Never heard of magazines censoring bands because of their beliefs. Not saying it didn't ever happen, but if anything I would think some magazines court controversy because it sells. Heck, look at how much press Vikerness got back in the day, after the whole black metal thing broke- he gave em all kinds of memorable sound bites and the press ate it up. I have a feeling that if Benediction were banned from Metal Maniacs, it was for more than just their pro-life views (Carcass, New Orleans Incubus, and Death all had anti-abortion lyrics as well- those of Carcass being brutally graphic. ALL those bands- well maybe not NOLA Incubus, were in Metal MAniacs.)

National Socialism far left? I seriously think you have to re-evaluate what the left is and go out and read books so you don't think something that depends on a xenophobic priori is somehow compatible to ideologies that promote widespread communal harmony and human empathy (regardless of race, group etc.).

When metal gets political, it does tend to be more to the left. There's no massive conspiracy against the right though. I tend to think of it at as a youthful perspective on the world combined with rebellion against the older generations. Some bands take this fire and turn it into fantastical images whether they be power metal's epic journeys, death metal's gore, black metal's isolation, and some bands turn it into more relevant political fury. Metal is starting to get older as bands like Black Sabbath and Megadeth enter old age which to me shows a coming shift from left to center. It won't surprise me when former left leaning kids turn hard right in their older years such as Mustaine. It's unlikely that they were educated about leftism in their youth and based their political lyrics mostly on gut feeling, the same gut feeling that will convince them right wing policies are right. Once more bands become older, we'll start seeing a microcosmic political landscapes in heavy metal comparable to every day life.

i read a lot of books about it, but i dont think this is right place for discussion about it I only can tell you that i live in a country that for 45 years was under occupation of such "communal harmony and human empathy" Never again....

Well, just because the far-left is the polar opposite of the far-right, doesn't mean it's particularly nice. Rather, it just goes full circle.

On the contrary. When you throw such misconceptions around, we have to be able to discuss it so we can establish the same frame of reference. It doesn't matter if you think that National Socialism is far left, or a school of thought concerning llama grooming: the fact of the matter is that you're wrong.

I like the placement of Dave Mustaine as crazier than Varg.

As you may notice, i wrote about NSBM scene in the "right wing" section of my initial post. NS and communism for me are very similar, one said that national socialism is biological racism, communism - social racism. I REALLY don't think that my opinion on National Socialism is important, i want to talk about ideology IN METAL, not ideology in itself, besides mods can qualify this topic as off-topic and close it. If you want to know my opinion, feel free to send me a PM.

It also depends of the style. Thrash is usually more lefty than, saying, black metal. Also, Burzum had nothing on politics nor satanism, but the man behind the band did. Don't mix the music/band with the musicians.

[It's easier to youngest to fall into the lefty speech: revolution, going against the ones who has more than you and take their belongings to share them among everyone, etc. It's a pretty empty and utopic philosophy, but it works cause it's popular and it takes the 'people's' name under its banner.

Just ask to any leftist 'what happens AFTER the revolution? the answer is the same shit they fought against.]

Wait, what?

Even if Varg's views are more ridicolous, at least he holds his beliefs and doesn't compromitate himself. Unlike Mustaine. Talented musician aside, who can be more contemptable than a former drug junkie born again radical christian?

I don't really think the left-leaning political thrash is like the angsty RATM or that rapper Immortal Technique type lyrics. It's not 1917 anymore, not everybody who wishes to rebuild the system supports revolution. You know, there's Social democracy and stuff. The argument of revolutions' failure used against leftists is a complete miss.

As far as debating whether nazism is right wing or left wing, that's pointless not only a metal forum, but in general. It's like a low way of discrediting a group by falsely associating a negative figure with them. "Look! Hitler was a socialist too!". The ones that seem to be specially butthurt with nazism association on left-right axis, at least here in Poland are the "libertarian conservatives" who are pissed about defining as right-wing about every other party which supports tax system different than medieval tax per head.

Whichever one is a psychopathic killer.

Yeah, seriously. Varg killed a guy. Mustaine's just an asshole. No comparison.

I don't want to go into whether that was a planned murder or not, but still Vikernes isn't who he sued to be in his teens.

I was a big fan of Metal Maniacs right from the beginning. I am very familiar with Ms. Ludwig and had sent a couple of letters to the magazine back in the day disagreeing with her political views and their incessant inclusion in a metal mag. One of them got published in an Obituary cover issue in 1994. She and her assistant editor (carpet muncher Alicia Morgan) banned a lot of bands from the mag during their dictatorship. Morbid Angel for the "quasi fascistic" views of David Vincent), Deicide for Glen's alleged animal cruelty instances, and Emperor I believe for a variety of reasons.

to clarify, when I meant that "metal is it's own ideology" I meant that most bands are/were inherantly apolitical, or at least had such widely differing philosophies (often between members of the same band,) that the focus was more on the music itself, the asthetics, composition and feel of it, and not on any particular political belief system. Basically the idea of keeping the beliefs of the musicians separate from the lyrical themes.

I think as most people age, their beliefs do not necessarily move more rightwards, but as people get a better understanding about how the world works and become less naieve and idealistic in their views, their outlook matures and they move toward the center, in other words. Obviously there are exceptions, like Mustaine. Mostly you see (for instance) anarcho-utopian socialists becoming mainstream liberals and those with facist/right wing viewpoints tempering them and becoming regular conservatives, as time goes by. Not always, obviously some people just become even nuttier.

It's hard to classify National Socialism as left or right wing. It has elements of both. The "Socialism" part implies left leaning philosophy, meaning, the government owns and directly controlls most industry and social services. But the "national" part of it implies a strict rigid social code of behavior, strong aggressive miltarist policy, and a xenophobic/racist element that seeks to strengthen and purify their own culture at the expense of all others- these are all elements of right wing governments. Which is it, it is it's own philosophy.

Just one, Graveland. Their wiki page stated that rob dismissed nuclear blast and osmose as a "jewish business conspiracy."

Metal was very left leaning in the eighties, during the thrash boom there was a spillover from the hardcore scene, then a few years later Napalm Death happened and that sealed the deal. Look at how many thrash and death bands had lyrics about pollution or social issues in the late 80's/early 90's, and read some Euronymous interviews from that time, it'll put things in perspective.

I wouldn't bother reading up on Euronymous anymore - his "love" of communism was mostly to do with how many people the regime killed. He was a just an edgy kid, really.

which is particularly pointless when you consider mao, stalin etc. - i mean, does one really need to try and shoehorn hitler in there as well when discrediting the far-left?

Sorry to point this one out but even what is seen as far left ie Guys like mao and stalin were xenophobic/racist they like Hitler took there ideas from guys like Karl Marx. If you want to go really far to the right you end up with Objectivism not National Socialism. That is all.

"Far left" isn't a single political idea, let alone one that Zedong or Stalin realized. There's more to discrediting it than throwing names of politicians who never represented majority of far leftists' views.

I'd say political ideologies in metal are pretty much mixed, and I don't think there's one dominant ideology among metal. I know plenty of liberal hippies who are into metal as well as conservative gun nuts who also are into it.

I think it's safe to say that Christians are a very small minority of metal bands, though. I could be wrong though.

A side question, is Kreator the band that wrote a song that was something about anti-nazis or killing nazis or something like that?


Indeed it is. It's the opposite of the far right which is all about less government, freedom of individuals to run businesses how they like, less taxes, less government mandates/handouts, etc.

I apologize for being pedantic, but National Socialism is right wing and authoritarian.
This website explains pretty well: http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2

Socialism and Communism are two words that mean exactly the same thing. The only reason the Nazis called themselves socialists is because they were against the Russians, but socialism as an idea is the same as communism, and communism is far left-wing, i.e. Stalin

National Socialists weren't actually socialists. It was a name used to attract (and fool) voters.

Though my memory is a bit hazy, I recall that there were genuine degrees of Socialist sentiments within the SA and some high-ranking officials like Ernst Rohm before they were purged in the Night of the Long Knives. It's been a few years since my undergrad 3rd Reich classes however, so someone may be able to explain it more properly...

National Socialism did have socialist elements but only as much as was required to unite the classes under the banner of national unity. Likewise certain industrialist circles enjoyed the coorperation of the Nazi regime. Fascism understands itself as post class warfare, therefore socialism in the classical Marxist sense is definitely incorrect when describing a fascist regime. Fascism doesn't aim to eliminate class difference, it aims to use them for "higher" causes.

Left-right wing axis =/= capitalism-socialism axis. Please learn the difference before posting.

Spot on there vengefulgoat.

And with metal being of a working-class origin, I find it hardly surprising that so many bands espouse the left's ideals.

The so called left-right axis is an extremely redundant political concept anyways that does nothing but oversimplify and confuse.

I took the political compass test, and I ended up slightly left and slightly down. Perhaps other metalheads could take the test and post their results, to get a better idea of what ideology we are?

That's not the thing you should read them for (and you should, anyway), it's his reaction to the PC climate in the scene. Because, as you remember, the one thing from Euro's political views that rooted itself in metal was not communism but contempt of PC. And it wouldn't have caught on if it had no resonance at that time when black metal was gaining steam as a movement.

Brushing off a man who spearheaded anything isn't a good idea if you want to know why things went the way they did, even when he's a clear as day shithead. Not trying to talk down to you, but it needs to be said in a discussion like this.

Naw, I've met a bunch of people like him. They like to say stupid things when they're kids. He was just lucky, to, as you put it, "spearhead" a musical movement. I don't particularly care for him or his views.

I tend to agree with most views held by black metal musicians.

I like Varg`s idea of Odalism.

From what I understand Communism was the failed ideology's (socialism) natural expansion into the area of policy.

[quote="EmeraldEdge9832"]

A side question, is Kreator the band that wrote a song that was something about anti-nazis or killing nazis or something like that?

Yes they are. They have Anti-fascism lyrics. Which make sense considering they are a German band.

So black metal musicians are left and slightly down as a general rule of thumb.

Their early stuff is good. Still they are an overrated band. The reason they have some left wing lyrics must be because they feel so guilty about the holocaust.
Yes, overrated band.
Saying abortion is left or right is flawed. The far-right oppose abortion if it is an individual they want to live but they support abortion for people they consider undesirable. Katherine Ludwig is probably some kind of femanists. Cente-right to right wing individuals oppose abortion because they believe in responsibility. The left tend to be feminists and they think irresponsible women should be allowed to abort their children(Which I don't have a problem with, I don't care). I am not sure if I have heard their music its unfortunate Benediction got banned just because Metal Maniacs thankfully former editor is a feminist extremist.

It depends on the subgenre.
I once read Atrophy lyrics. I felt like vomiting. Anti-war does not make one left wing. Pat Buchanan and paleoconservatism anti-war and hes pretty right wing. I think you are confusing anti-war with pacifism. Environmentalism is not necessary left wing. Its only neoconservatives and greedy big businessmen extremists that hate the environment. The German National Socialists were very pro-environment Blut und Boden(Blood and Social) for example, but you consider NS left wing. If someone is far-right generally they are fine with aborting people they consider inferior so an opinion on abortion does not make one left or right wing. I do not listen to any bands with whiney leftist lyrics. Personally I think left wing politics are politics for the weak. The left always seek "social justice" for the less successful people in a society and try to make people "equal".
I have never got into Iced Earth and At War does not look that good. Still Iced Earth is on my list of bands to get into. I see Christian metal as a joke. It is like white power reggae, National Socialist kletzmer or satanic gospel music. Christian=/=right wing. Very religious Christians are usually right wing on social issues but they are very egalitarian. I unfortunately went to a Christian school and I was told everyone was equal. I love many NSBM bands though generally I prefer Satanic bands. Pagan bands can be called nationalist. They are usually not NS but they are nationalist. Their nationalism is more moderate but they sing about their heritage and ancient gods. That is nationalism. It think pride in ones heritage is very metal. RAC is generally quite shitty but a few bands are fun.
I do not listen to much thrash. Ideology/lyrics in metal are very important to me though I listen to many bands without ideology in music. Political music be it left or right wing is generally quite crap. I like Pagan and Satanic ideology/lyrics. I like nationalism as long as the nationalism is connected to Paganism.