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LegendMaker
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Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:24 am
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Location: France
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:48 pm 
 

The_Erlking wrote:
I was actually thinking Believer's Dimensions. Their best album to date imo.

Well, quality does not really matter for this point, and to each their own, but 'Dimensions' can suck it as far as I'm concerned. It's a pretty good album in and of itself, but one does not simply release a monster of an album like 'Sanity Obscure' and then expect me to lap up its cold, dried out then rehydrated leftovers 3 years after the fact (helloooo, Savatage!). I'll forever worship your divine offerings, once-godly bands, but don't expect me to be your bitch because of it (nice try, though, fooled some hehe). Anyhow, Believer was a very particular band with its very particular style, which didn't really fit in any single genre, thrash or otherwise. I'd be very reluctant to call even Sanity Obscure thrash, and it's much closer to thrash than Dimensions is. The debut, yeah, okay; it's very personal thrash with some death, some hardcore and some folk influences if you will, I'm okay with calling it that. "Progressive/technical thrash", for the next two, I dunno... it doesn't really fit. To me, it's a bit like calling Tiamat's 'The Astral Sleep' (masterpiece, by the way) death metal, or even doom/death; I can see how it makes sense to give it that tag, since it's arguably the closer it gets, but these are albums that transcend genres, cliché though it may seem. Anyways, a solid half of 'Dimensions' is folk metal and/or experimental music (the bulk of "Dimentia" + the whole "Trilogy of Knowledge" thing); stuff like "Gone" or "No Apology" is groove metal if it's anything (despite being Believer's version of groove metal, so still rather personal), and this clearly extends to the bulk of "Future Mind" and "What is Cannot be"... which leaves one sort of thrash song, the aptly-named "Singularity" (and even that one has a few groovy and experimental parts). So yeah, it'd really be a stretch to consider this album a proper thrash album in my book.

Von Jugel wrote:
But how about this? [link to a melodeath song off of Caracass' milestone melodeath album 'HeartWork']

Yeah, what about it? Indeed, are you fucking joking, man? Are you high as a kite? Retarded? New to metal? Other? All of the above? If you're not very familiar with thrash, that's absolutely fine; but don't expect to pick any metal album from 1993 at random and magically stumble upon the one long-lost thrash album released that year, despite 5 of us dedicated thrash fans having tried real hard to find one, and coming up empty. No offense, bro. Also, please note that quality isn't a criterion, never mind that 'Indepence' sucks ass (how could it not? it's only Sacred Reich's black album, after all); it's because it is not thrash that I'm saying it cannot be a 1993 thrash album. If it were shitty thrash, that'd be fine.

Meanwhile, Techno Viper, having finally retrieved his spliff from Zodijackyl's and Von Jugel's paws, wrote:
Not to get all "tin hat nutty", but to my understanding, any band and/or movement (like the 99% ) is what's called "controlled oposition". What better way to disfuse opposition than to control it yourself and stear it in a direction where it no longer threatens you?

Sure. And what better application of the absolultely ultimate evil masterplan to take over the world without anyone ever being the wiser than... using it to make thrash metal, of all things, fall to its knees, only to let it return a short decade later? Come on, gimme some of that jumbo doobie too, you adorably crazy person! :D
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Napero
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Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:29 pm 
 

TheNiceNightmare wrote:
Napero wrote:
Show me one song with actually angsty lyrics from a classic thrash band, please... You must be confusing it with nu metal.


Now, I never specifically said "angsty lyrics", the people in these bands lashed out at the world because of their feelings, some picked politics as the subject to express themselves with, then quit doing so, perhaps because of emotional maturity. They could be feeling the way they did, without writing "I hate everyone" Korn type lyrics and instead lashing out at the establishment, doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me.

Yup, it sounded like aggressive fun instead of angst, the lyrics were not angsty, but essentially, the genre died a temporary death because the young people ran out of angst? Makes sense. I'd sure love to see your version of Metal Evolution.

Dude, you sound like you weren't around at the time... durrr.... When thrash died, everything turned angsty. There was grunge, nu metal, whiny alt movies, angsty Batman, a widespread Goth plague, everything. The end of thrash was the beginning of angst, and unless you have a damn credible reasoning behind what you wrote, I suggest giving up at this point. The early-to-mid 80s was a ridiculously positive era, and the thing with the biggest dose of Weltschmerz was fucking Wall Street.
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TheNiceNightmare
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:12 pm 
 

Yeah, everyone was super happy about everything, especially bands complaining about politicians. It does make sense, actually, for people who stop caring and move on to write about something else, (ironically songs like what '90s Metallica wrote).

There's a bigger meaning behind "angst" than "sound like a nu-metal band" and just because it turned into a very central theme for music in the '90s, doesn't mean it as an emotion didn't exist before 1993, nor that it didn't take various forms for people trying to express themselves - such as political lyrics. I'm sure the end of the '80s was a just delightful era, and there were no genuine worries for anyone whatsoever, anywhere...not even for thrash metal bands with the means to make and record music. Maybe, just maybe, they felt the need to complain, and chose music as their medium, and since it was such a great time, maybe their worries were unfounded and yet they insisted on complaining, bitching about some political issue in between songs about thrashing about to great music? Wow, that sounds an awful lot like angst...and then, as they mature, they decide to go with the times and(/or?) write about something else they feel the need to express, like maybe how much the '90s suck or whatever.

Why would it be so hard to believe that angry people do angry things? Like write angry music about things that anger them? Just because the times were great (especially if you were a thrash metal band in the late '80s), that doesn't mean people didn't find reasons to be angry? Now, there's a reason I've "switched" from angsty to angry here, the era being so fantastic if anything would reinforce my point...they'd be angry if their lives really did suck, they'd be angsty if, as it turns out, they were spewing vitriol at politicians for no real reason because things were pretty great.

But yeah, sure, you're right and I'm wrong, because I had no idea people made shitty music in the '90s or that everyone everywhere, especially youth inclined to play political, aggressive thrash walked around with huge dumb grins on their faces all the time.
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Napero
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:38 pm 
 

Dude, there's a profound difference between "angsty" and "angry". Anger is a part of the 80s thrash scene, as well as of the hardcore of the same decade; anger can be a positive thing in many contexts, while angst is something that makes a loser in a dirty sweater whine for years before blowing his brains on the wall. The moment hardcore went from "anger" to "angst", it turned to whiny shit. The moment the anger of thrash was exchanged for the angst of grunge marked the beginning of an era when I failed to find any new good bands for almost a decade. You seem to be sorting it out yourself just fine, though, so carry on, please. A hint, though: it's quite difficult to incorporate angst into political lyrics and still make sense.

No, everything was not super happy in the 80s. On the contrary. But the mood was optimistic, and the tiny little things that tried to spoil it (Chernobyl, the Challenger disaster, a little hole in the ozone layer, a bit of AIDS, Olof Palme...) were easily countered by a bunch of plastic idiots singing "Do They Know It's Christmas Time", and everything seemed to be racing for a new dawn of infinite possibilities. It was a decade of hope and collective denial, and unfortunately it wasn't replaced by a decade of actually doing something about things, but by a decade of general whining about everything essentially meaningless. This is all retrospective, of course, but I do believe that when people look at the 20th century a few hundred years down the road, the 80s will be seen as the decade when mankind finally lost its shit.
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DeathFog
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 9:20 am
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:43 pm 
 

@LegendMaker, I am not going to argue your point about post 1993 albums, but I found some stuff from that time. Havoc Mass (1993) - Killing The Future is a nice candidate. Mortal Reign (1993) - Return To Battle - the album has some groovy bits, but their amount is minimal. I am not sure if it counts as proper Thrash in your book. The there is Dorsal Atlantica (1993) - Musical Guide From Stellium, but it might be too groovy.

Havoc Mass - All That is Evil
Mortal Reign - Return To Battle

Speaking about the demise of Thrash, first of all, it ran out of ideas by 1993 due to the over-saturation around mid/late 80's, early 90's. Secondly, as it has been mentioned by previous posters, grunge, black metal and death metal became a better source of income, due to the fact that they were new.
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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:25 pm 
 

@DeathFog: Thanks for those suggestions, I'll look into it tomorrow. It's my turn to be stoned to function properly, it seems (it was bound to happen). :D I'm familiar with neither band, and from my first listen of the 2 tracks you linked to, I can't be sure about either. My first, stoned impression is: Havoc Mass is one of the most nerve-grating bands I ever heard, and also groove/thrash metal (pending the results from the lab to confirm whether there are indeed trace amounts of thrash in that very 90s sonic pudding); that Mortal Reign song sounds like a fucking great and quite typical late 80s/early 90s thrash song, with a decidedly pre-blackalbumization production job and a positively groove-free everything, but I'm almost certain I'll be able to confirm that it's because it is. This particular recording of that particular song I've just heard simply cannot be from 1993 and not be well-known for it. And what do you know, a quick glance at their discography tells me that they also released a demo of the same name with the same title track on it, in 1990; also, the YT poster also mentions "I believe it was back in 1989 or 1990". Now, how much do you wanna bet that this upload is actually the 1990 version? Not trying to pull a vengefulgoat on me, are you? :D At any rate, that's at least a nice find, and thank you for that! As I said, I'll check more in-depth tomorrow.
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Von Jugel
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Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:49 am
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:28 pm 
 

LegendMaker wrote:
Yeah, what about it? Indeed, are you fucking joking, man? Are you high as a kite? Retarded? New to metal? Other? All of the above? If you're not very familiar with thrash, that's absolutely fine; but don't expect to pick any metal album from 1993 at random and magically stumble upon the one long-lost thrash album released that year, despite 5 of us dedicated thrash fans having tried real hard to find one, and coming up empty. No offense, bro. Also, please note that quality isn't a criterion, never mind that 'Indepence' sucks ass (how could it not? it's only Sacred Reich's black album, after all); it's because it is not thrash that I'm saying it cannot be a 1993 thrash album. If it were shitty thrash, that'd be fine.


Not new to thrash, but new to the site. I was just taking a wild stab at your challenge, that's all, I generally agree with your point.

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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:42 pm 
 

Von Jugel wrote:
Not new to thrash, but new to the site. I was just taking a wild stab at your challenge, that's all, I generally agree with your point.

Okay man, no worries (that's what it looked like, to be fair). It's just that it turns out to be a pretty tough challenge, as you can see (I'm still failing myself).

@Napero: Man, I really enjoy your writing. Even when what you're saying isn't fascinating (in this case, it's just a no-nonsense look at some trends in recent history), the way you're saying it makes for a very good read. You should write short stories or something (maybe you already do?). Hmmm. I'm too stoned, huh? :D Right, time to go to sleep. :uh oh:
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kingnuuuur
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:40 pm 
 

Since the current discussion is about the extinction of (proper) thrash in 1993, I'm gonna go ahead and link to this proper legit thrash gem (released in '93). The album is beast by the way, check it out if you haven't.

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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:29 am 
 

@kingnuuuur: Thanks, I will check it out, because it sounds really good. That said, this song is really on the fence between thrash and death, so if the rest of the album is like that, I'd say it's thrash/death or "deathrash" if you will, more than just thrash. It reminds me of Incubus' legendary album, 'Beyond the Unknown' more than any proper thrash album.

I'll look into the rest of the album, as well as DeathFog's 3 suggestions as soon as I can (too much overtime at work lately snif snif).


By the way, just to clarify, I was totally serious about loving Napero's writing. Reading my previous post again, it occurred to me it might have sounded like I was implying I liked it only because I was too stoned, which would not be nice at all. I actually meant that I was too stoned because it was a bit unusual to praise his writing out of the blue like that. Anyways... I'll stop that now.
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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:56 pm 
 

For 1994, you've got Sodom's Get What You Deserve, which is their last genuinely killer album. Maybe a bit more punk influenced, but I'd call it real thrash, for sure.
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DeathFog
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 9:20 am
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Location: Estonia
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:34 pm 
 

This thread has a lot of interesting facts, but barely any analysis. Here are the basic point made :

* There are no evidence of conspiracy.
* Thrash in its original form became extinct by 1993.
* The niche formerly occupied by Thrash was overtaken by Death Metal, Black Metal, Groove Metal and Grunge.

Rightful questions arise :
* What were the benefits of these new genres compared to Thrash ? One should keep in mind, that at some point these genres were developing in the shadow of the almighty Thrash.
* What made Groove Metal so attractive among the veteran and newly formed Thrash bands ? Why is it still an integral part of their sound ?

I am yet to find answers to these questions.
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godsonsafari
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:23 pm 
 

Quote:
* What were the benefits of these new genres compared to Thrash ? One should keep in mind, that at some point these genres were developing in the shadow of the almighty Thrash.


Limitations within the style of thrash metal inhibits(ed) growth to a great degree. There was only so far you could go before it ceased to be thrash and became something else. That was something quite evident as far back as the mid 1980s. Death metal, black metal, groove metal, doom metal, grunge, postrock, prog metal - they all offered different options that thrash ostensibly closed the door on. Speed, tempo, instrumentation, experimentation, song length, timing schemes, lyrics themes; the whole nine.

Quote:
What made Groove Metal so attractive among the veteran and newly formed Thrash bands ? Why is it still an integral part of their sound ?


Closely related enough that it was easy to make the transition. Didn't require bands that didn't necessarily want to go into making outwardly satantic/brutal music an option to keep them relevant commercially. Creatively there were probably issues too. Guys wanted to try different and new things.
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SpyreWorks
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:54 am 
 

OP wrote:
Did the gubmint make thrash metal less political because it represented a threat to the establishment?


Metal Archives wrote:
Let's take this seriously and discuss it.


Really, guys?

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DeathForBlitzkrieg
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:32 pm 
 

The OP suggests that when bands stopped playing thrash they also stopped writing sociocritical lyrics. One could indeed argue that lots of death metal had less straight political topics, elevating the whole thing to a more abstract level, but in the case of black metal and satanism/anti-christianity that's a direct continuation of anti-clerical hate which many thrash bands ferociously expressed like Nuclear Assault's "Hang the Pope".
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HamburgerBoy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:30 pm 
 

The reason thrash metal "died" after the early 90's is because its components are so ubiquitous throughout other genres that it is treated as if the slightest deviation from the roots makes it something else. Take pure water and add a few grams of X, and now you have a Z mM solution of X. That's why people can listen to Sacrifice's Flesh and hear groove metal, but when they hear the same riffs in For Whom the Bells Toll they hear thrash or heavy metal. That's also why death metal is capable of withstanding a bazillion derivations and extremely disparate musical styles under its giant umbrella, yet a few Pantera-isms in a Shovel Headed Kill Machine or a Bloodletting earn a booting from the thrash pile. I'll continue listening to Hieronymus Bosch to satisfy my Coroner cravings no matter what genre you want to throw them under.

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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:32 pm 
 

ANationalAcrobat wrote:
Zodijackyl wrote:
Maybe thrash metal was purely powered by hatred of Ronald Reagan. It took nearly two terms of him in office to brew up classics like "Master Control" and "Digital Dictator" in 1990.


1. Neither of those albums were released in 1990.
2. Neither of those albums are thrash (USPM fits the bill).
3. Have you taken your brain medicine today, Zodi? :P


Hey at least someone's fact-checking.

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The_Erlking
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:21 am 
 

HamburgerBoy wrote:
The reason thrash metal "died" after the early 90's is because its components are so ubiquitous throughout other genres that it is treated as if the slightest deviation from the roots makes it something else. Take pure water and add a few grams of X, and now you have a Z mM solution of X. That's why people can listen to Sacrifice's Flesh and hear groove metal, but when they hear the same riffs in For Whom the Bells Toll they hear thrash or heavy metal. That's also why death metal is capable of withstanding a bazillion derivations and extremely disparate musical styles under its giant umbrella, yet a few Pantera-isms in a Shovel Headed Kill Machine or a Bloodletting earn a booting from the thrash pile. I'll continue listening to Hieronymus Bosch to satisfy my Coroner cravings no matter what genre you want to throw them under.


Well said.
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suleiman
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:50 am 
 

i see 4 cases where stoner paranoia can be applied (subversion of movement by COINTELPRO/agencies), thrash being one of them :

- hippy / protest folk from the 60's (limited proof exists) : replaced real activism and poltical action / protest with peace love and drugs

- politically inclined hip hop /rap from the 80's (limited proof exists) : replaced polticially active subversive agenda with goddawful crap filled with thugs, pimps, ho's, club floors and bling

- thrash (no proof seen till date) : replaced understandable vocals set to energetic music criticising poltical and social situations with unitelligible gurgling/growling/screeching and obsession with gore and satan (BM & DM)

- Hardcore / Punk (no proof seen) : replaced understandable vocals set to energetic music criticising political and social situations with unitelligible gurgling/growling/screeching and obsession with violence, breakdowns, emoting and the 'scene'

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Kigo7
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:20 pm 
 

I don't think "stoner paranoia" could be applied to thrash's being eclipsed by DM and BM because people who founded DM and BM were searching for more extreme modes of expression than thrash and had to essentially build new subgenres of music to do so. While it'd be easy trying to find evidence of a conspiracy to explain why thrash declined in the 1990s, peoples' tastes changed in the 1990s and the majority of thrash bands either had to change to suit the changing tastes of the music-buying-public or play to increasingly select audiences.

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suleiman
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:43 pm 
 

Kigo7 wrote:
I don't think "stoner paranoia" could be applied to thrash's being eclipsed by DM and BM because people who founded DM and BM were searching for more extreme modes of expression than thrash and had to essentially build new subgenres of music to do so. While it'd be easy trying to find evidence of a conspiracy to explain why thrash declined in the 1990s, peoples' tastes changed in the 1990s and the majority of thrash bands either had to change to suit the changing tastes of the music-buying-public or play to increasingly select audiences.


hence my comments about "no proof seen till date"

i traveled the same path heavy--> thrash-->death-->black

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GTog
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:03 pm 
 

I really don't think that thrash had momentum. Not any more than glam did. It was just a thing that flared up relatively quickly, but that's not momentum.

NWOBHM brought with it a hunger for heavy metal in the American youth, and the hardcode American club scene seemed like a good place to put it. Stir, and repeat for 10 years. It's the same way that hard rock clubs morphed into the glam scene in Los Angeles, except they invited girls.

The musicians weren't much older than their audience. Some (Death Angel) were younger. It was a young man's game, and young men grow up. It seemed to die off in the early 90s because we were all in our 20s by then and we had things to do.

Of course no music genre ever completely dies, but we probably won't have anything quite like that collision of factors again.

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:30 pm 
 

HamburgerBoy wrote:
The reason thrash metal "died" after the early 90's is because its components are so ubiquitous throughout other genres that it is treated as if the slightest deviation from the roots makes it something else. Take pure water and add a few grams of X, and now you have a Z mM solution of X. That's why people can listen to Sacrifice's Flesh and hear groove metal, but when they hear the same riffs in For Whom the Bells Toll they hear thrash or heavy metal. That's also why death metal is capable of withstanding a bazillion derivations and extremely disparate musical styles under its giant umbrella, yet a few Pantera-isms in a Shovel Headed Kill Machine or a Bloodletting earn a booting from the thrash pile. I'll continue listening to Hieronymus Bosch to satisfy my Coroner cravings no matter what genre you want to throw them under.


godsonsafari wrote:

Limitations within the style of thrash metal inhibits(ed) growth to a great degree. There was only so far you could go before it ceased to be thrash and became something else. That was something quite evident as far back as the mid 1980s. Death metal, black metal, groove metal, doom metal, grunge, postrock, prog metal - they all offered different options that thrash ostensibly closed the door on. Speed, tempo, instrumentation, experimentation, song length, timing schemes, lyrics themes; the whole nine.


These two posters kind of nailed it. Thrash was born from an adventurous spirit of mixing up different influences but ironically became confined by very strict limitations and a misguided purist attitude. It was a fucking headache being a musician during the height of that scene. People had very strict views on what was acceptable or not as far as production, guitar tone, vocals, acceptable tempos, themes, mood and so on. You had to hit a pretty narrow range as far as aggression level as well. After the pioneers wrote the book on thrash, there was nowhere to go unless you accepted being called something else. How long can you sell the same records over and over again becomes the question.

I don't think there was that much momentum to begin with, honestly. At least in my part of the woods, thrash rarely made it to the big arenas and stadiums and most of them were left to open up for kickass heavy metal bands. The latter offered a much wider range of music, they could build a set list that offered variety, pace themselves and made for a much better and dramatic show experience. Thrash was often going for this down to earth, urban approach that didn't provide as much escapism. They also tend to neglect the frontman role a lot more, which again is detrimental not only to records but can be fatal for live shows.

I think those who wanted a more conventional experience stuck with melodic, traditional metal and a lot of the fans and musicians who wanted to keep on pushing the boundaries finally gave the narrow-minded nature of the genre the finger and moved on to whatever extreme music they felt like doing.
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somefella
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:08 am 
 

Just no. It would be nice to think that the 'system' is shutting down our beloved genre of music, but no. Others in the thread have already pointed out the laughability of this theory and they are mostly right.
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HenryKrinkle31
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:28 am 
 

Coven - Boneless Christian (1993)
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:05 am 
 

First, thrash is so small in the grand scheme of things to think it threatened the stablishment.

Then about the style itself:

1- its too limited in a compositional level. To make something sound thrash you have too few variants. Then becomes something else.

2- it was short lived cause metal evolved too fast. Thrash was the most extreme metal variant for like 5 years? At best. At the mid 80's death metal appeared to take that throne, then black metal did the same.

3- it tried to survive in the worst way: instead getting more extreme it softened to appeal the masses and cash in the hair metal moda, since the metal community had their eyes in other stuff. I mean, which thrash album can stand to Altars of Madness? No one. Morbid Angel alone wiped thrash as a extreme metal expression.
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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along the Rhine
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:36 am 
 

Part of the reason why "thrash metal" "stopped" being so political is because the term lumps together two different movements, one of which wasn't very political to begin with (speed metal like Slayer or Destruction) but maintained popularity and one of which was very political but kinda flatlined at some point for whatever reason (crossover thrash like D.R.I. and Cryptic Slaughter). I think crossover thrash just kinda ran out of ideas because the songwriting technique was very basic and didn't offer a great deal of possibilities.
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Exigence
Age: 29 (Wait, what?!)

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:42 pm
Posts: 955
Location: New Orleans
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:37 am 
 

Only someone under the age of 25 could postulate such a question. Shit, maybe even 21.

Getting older means suddenly desiring security, especially if children are involved. This means steady jobs and not fucking around on the road 'touring' for months, making no money. Since roughly all these people were the same age, let's say 1982 til 1992 was their age 18 through 28, they all sputtered out at the same time.

Then think about this...kids who liked THOSE bands (who were already heavier) suddenly went into death metal that became the next underground thing for a while in the 90s. Keep in mind, I'm not saying this as a defense of "metal evolution" (I hate that shit) but just what happens. That's life.

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Manic Maniac
Grammaritically Challengated

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:58 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:39 pm 
 

First wave Thrashers where extreme not for the sake of being extreme like Black Metal, Death Metal, & later Thrash Metal bands. They where being extreme to avoid sharing the same luxury Glam Metal was having at the time. When Glam Metal died out & Grunge was getting popular, many first wave Thrashers waved their hands in the air & said "Fuck it, I'm righting whatever the fuck I want." Thus many Thrashers got less extreme sounding & didn't mind if their new sound sounded commercial.
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severzhavnost
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:27 pm 
 

I believe alot of oddball conspiracy shit, and this one is tempting. Seeing as 80% of the world's English language media (incl. record labels) is owned by six corpirations. But believing in a thrash metal conspiracy is putting thrash on a pedestal it doesn't deserve. The genre was never seriously subversive to begin with. Its socio-political themes were just a more agrressive presentation of the same adolescent fight-the-power stuff that rock music had been doing for many years. And that's no disrespect to thrash! I love it, but I just realistically accept it for what it is. It was never going to change the world, and that's okay.
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Faster Than You
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:43 pm
Posts: 86
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:54 pm 
 

Cranium - Speed Metal Slaughter (98)
Cranium - Speed Metal Sentence (99)

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Oxenkiller
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 1319
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:08 pm 
 

the original post asks, Do you think the marginilzation of the early thrash metal genre was a conspiracy to destroy political activism within the movement,leading the record companies to promote death and black metal which are less humanitarian and less of a threat to the establishment?

In a word, no. I don't believe it was so much a conspiracy, as it was a multitude of other factors. The record companies were there to make money and really didn't care less what the lyrics were about. If they figured they could go platinum with a record where the band sang about how much they want to destroy capitalism and burn record companies, they would sign them anyway. If you are looking for one reason that "Thrash was marginalized in the late '80s/early 90's" then blame black metal. The leading scenesters of the day (for instance, Euronymous) roundly condemned bands that sang about political subjects. The fans meanwhile drifted toward the more evil/death lyrics simply because it was darker, angrier, and more extreme. Whereas as it has been mentioned, thrash was stagnating musically. And more to the point, Euronymous was right to an extent, a lot of fans of thrash didn't particularly WANT the bands to be all political, greenpeace, vegan, left wing, etc. They wanted the dark, sinister, escapist fantasy that bands like Slayer, Venom, Celtic Frost and Possessed had offered on their early records, and which thrash had steadily abandoned by the late 1980s. So, no; I don't believe it was any kind of conspiracy at all, rather it was simply a matter of taste. Grunge, and all the "lighter" genres of the early/mid 1990s drew a lot of fans who were burned out on thrash, alienated by glam, and were simply looking for a new and interesting sound. Or as the OP put it, yes; it was "the natural result of market forces or a changing of the guard/change of opinion within the larger social construct of the United States metal scene itself."

The idea of retro thrash not really measuring up to the standards or popularity of the old bands is the subject for a whole other post but if I can summarize:

Most of those bands that I have heard simply sound like kids trying to copy the mid-1980s speed/thrash sound who were too young to have been there and to have really gotten a feel for what that music was like. They sound, in other words, like a cheap cardboard copy of bands like Destruction, Exodus, Slayer or Kreator, composing songs made out of third rate Destruction, Exodus, Slayer and Kreator riffs that weren't good enough for the original bands to have used. Like a soulless, half ass attempt to copy the look, sound and feel of the bands but somehow they just don't quite get it. There are obviously exceptions to this however.

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 5023
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:20 pm 
 

:tinfoil:

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