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The SHM
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 134
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:21 pm 
 

Which genre would it be, and what would you rename it?

I always felt doom metal was more at home being named 'black metal.' But that's just me.
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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:27 pm 
 

Gothic metal has always been a bit of a misnomer, given that it has next to nothing to do with goth rock. Considering 99% of bands under the "gothic metal" label are just heavy, power, or doom metal with a dark, Romantic atmosphere, these groups should be the ones who occupy the currently-useless "dark metal" tag.

Then "gothic metal" could be the sole property of Type O Negative.
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
Posts: 6707
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:37 pm 
 

I'd rather re-appropriate "gothic metal" to any band who use a strong gothic aesthetic, so it could realistically be used for Black Sabbath, Helstar, Type O Negative, Paradise Lost and Manilla Road. :D
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MARSDUDE
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:17 pm
Posts: 1732
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:38 pm 
 

I'd probably call power metal something lame like "fantasy metal" or some crap like that.

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Metantoine
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Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:38 pm 
 

I would rename this thread (also change the subject to something else).
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:57 pm 
 

^ Cute. :rolleyes:

I agree that "gothic metal" is misused. I try to always use it in reference to bands that are hybrids of goth rock and metal, such as Stillborn, Type O Negative, etc. instead of the stupid beauty-and-the-beast symphonic metal à la Theatre of Tragedy (or worse yet, any faggy band with chick vocals like Within Temptation -- barf).

Power metal is also ill-fitting for the flowery, synth-heavy bands like Kamelot or Sonata Arctica.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:07 pm 
 

There's a considerable amount of music labeled as black metal that has very little to do with the actual genre. While many of the genre's most recognisable superficial aspects are implemented to various degrees (screamed, sometimes distorted vocals, raw production and minimalism), bands like Fen (after the first EP at least), Austere, Alcest and even Woods of Desolation are only tangentially related to black metal. Being stylistically based on black metal and lacking their own genre label, they nominally belong to the same genre as Darkthrone, Horna and Urgehal, which can be quite misleading to the uninitiated.
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Last edited by Ilwhyan on Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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HenryKrinkle31
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:49 pm
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Location: British Indian Ocean Territory
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:07 pm 
 

I would call black metal something else.
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absurder21
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:51 pm
Posts: 673
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:08 pm 
 

Yeah I agree with most of what's been said here. Most power metal is more fitting with a word like epic, instead of power which is quite broad. I'd also wish to make the gothic metal term stricter as the lack of bands with any sort of gothic aesthetic in the genres big names, save TON, My Dying Bride or Paradise Lost, is way too high.

Ilwhyan wrote:
There's a considerable amount of music labeled as black metal that has very little to do with the actual genre. While many of the genre's most recognisable superficial aspects are implemented to various degrees (screamed, sometimes distorted vocals, raw production and minimalism), bands like Fen (after the first EP at least), Austere, Alcest and even Woods of Desolation are only tangentially related to black metal. Being stylistically based on black metal and lacking their own genre label, they nominally belong to the same genre as Darkthrone, Horna and Urgehal, which can be quite misleading to the uninitiated.

Alcest are definitely decently far removed from black metal (the last Lantlos record was mostly post-rock as well), but I would say Austere/Woods of Desolation are still in line. Fen's still pretty close too, although they are becoming more like a dark metal band.


Last edited by absurder21 on Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6557
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:09 pm 
 

HenryKrinkle31 wrote:
I would call black metal something else.

You would rather all music that is currently labeled as black metal had a different name, still including Horna and Lustre in the same genre?
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Against Such Things
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 8:16 pm
Posts: 450
Location: Southern Maryland
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:19 pm 
 

I'd rename black metal "kvlt metal", just to get it overwith. Although I think "dark metal" would be more appropriate, as well.
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dreadmeat
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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:50 am
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:21 pm 
 

bleak metal for the really stripped down black metal stuff and dark metal for doom metal
also i reckon doom metal would make good sludge metal, when i first heard sludge metal i remember thinking this doesn't sound like sludge

"post metal" kind of irritates me a bit too
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dontlivefastjustdie
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Location: Hotlanta, USA
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:35 pm 
 

I would replace the -core suffix on metalcore and deathcore to -lite ala Coors Lite and Miller Lite. I feel that would more accurately describe the lack of "taste" and quality that those 2 genres exemplify while alleviating the common misconception that either genre has anything to do with actual hardcore or grindcore.
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Morrigan
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Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:37 pm 
 

^ That reminds me, nu-metal really needs another name, since it has nothing to do with metal. All I can think of as replacements are derogatory/slurs, though. :D
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:37 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
^ That reminds me, nu-metal really needs another name, since it has nothing to do with metal.

"Hard rock" works just fine. :V
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Xlxlx
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:41 pm 
 

Nu metal bands are barely connected with one another from a stylistical point of view. Limp Bizkit, Korn, early Soulfly and the like are very different and difficult to relate to each other, and thus I always found the term "nu metal" to be some sort of umbrella term in the same way "grunge" or "glam metal" are. I don't even consider it an actual musical genre anymore.
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Last edited by Xlxlx on Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dreadmeat
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:41 pm 
 

nu-metal = almost metal, faux-metal?
and i definitely like the LITE idea, metal-lite, death-lite etc :grin:
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:46 pm 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
"Hard rock" works just fine. :V

Meh, I disagree, when I think of hard rock I think of Alice Cooper or Guns N Roses, but maybe I'm just old. :P

Also, your sig is too long.
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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dreadmeat
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:50 pm 
 

what would a modern day "hard rock" band be called?
like ac/dc is hard rock but a band who sound just like them but 30 years younger?
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Xlxlx
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:16 pm
Posts: 5617
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:54 pm 
 

That band is called Airbourne.
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dreadmeat
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:01 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
That band is called Airbourne.

That band is called Airbourne indeed. :nods:
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Metal_Jaw
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:57 pm
Posts: 231
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:17 pm 
 

I'd get rid of "progressive metal" entirely. I always felt that the term was more of a descriptive generality that an actual genre.

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SladeCraven
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 1:51 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:19 pm 
 

Personally, I don't know how the majority of the nu-metal acts could be related to one another. For example, Limp Bizkit is certainly a whole hell of a lot less close to metal than say, Slipknot.

Slipknot are knocking on metal's doorstep, in my opinion. Like them or not. Bands like Korn and Disturbed, not so much.
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
Posts: 6707
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:22 pm 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
^ That reminds me, nu-metal really needs another name, since it has nothing to do with metal.

"Hard rock" works just fine. :V


It really doesn't, because when I think of "hard rock" I think of stuff like Thin Lizzy, AC/DC, Deep Purple and in general a certain style that has very little to do with nu metal (read: next to nothing at all). Nu metal could be "rap rock" or "alternative shite rock" depending on its actual sound...
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Kigo7
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:51 pm
Posts: 164
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:39 pm 
 

I'd probably change "progressive metal" to just "technical metal" seeing as "progressive metal" is a descriptive term anyway. Also, hard-rock covers a multitude of bands, so I'd change that to something else too.

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dreadmeat
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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:50 am
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:42 pm 
 

we have heavy rock too, i can't stand that term.

rock
hard rock
heavy rock
heavy metal / or just 'metal'
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iAm
Wastelander

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Location: West of the Duwamish due South of the Sound
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:10 pm 
 

I really wish so many bands weren't lumped into Progressive Rock. The Berlin and Canterbury scenes were doing completely different things at the same time yet still get thrown together. Then there's the Italian 'medieval' stuff which never gets any recognition at all.
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dreadmeat
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:13 pm 
 

how about Mojavian dust metal :metal: :lol:
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iAm
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Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:18 am
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Location: West of the Duwamish due South of the Sound
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:16 pm 
 

dreadmeat wrote:
how about Mojavian dust metal :metal: :lol:

It's called Stoner Rock.

Queens of the Stone Age, Kyuss
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The SHM
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 134
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:40 pm 
 

Nu Metal should be renamed Nu Grunge. It was basically grunge with downtuned guitars and rapping.
At no point did most of the songs even feature a proper guitar/bass/drum solo.
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LegendMaker
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:24 am
Posts: 1609
Location: France
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:43 pm 
 

groove metal => toughguy metal => tough metal => tuf
nu-metal => new tuf => nutuf
mallcore => teen tuf => teentuf
deathcore => rough tuf => ruftuf

metalcore, as in actual bands blurring the lines between actual metal and actual hardcore, can stay.

USPM + proper power metal (including non-flowery EuroPM) => power metal

flowery EuroPM => romance metal

black metal => hate metal


Apart from that, there's the whole debate around dark metal, as previously discussed in a few threads. In my view it could and perhaps should encompass from doom-death to a lot of atmospheric extreme metal (be it black, death, both, or otherwise labeled in this continuum).
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PureNegativism
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Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:40 pm
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:55 pm 
 

Given that Melodic Death Metal is usually a complete misnomer a shift in that naming convention would be welcome.

I vaguely recall hearing that at some point a distinction between Doom/Death acts like early My Dying Bride and traditional Doom Metal was made, referring to them as 'Dirge Metal'. I wish that had caught on in the larger metal consciousness, given that the two styles are so different yet both are commonly referred to as "doom'.
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Big_Grand
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:59 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:01 pm 
 

Im not crazy about using sub genres unless im using them to describe a sound and break down bands more, but this is what I have

brutal death metal = blood metal
maybe create another unnecessary genre for those proggy nature bm bands like fen and aggalloch and call it "somewhat green metal" or something
sludge = balls metal/ whiskey metal
southern metal = cast iron metal?
djent = coffee metal

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dreadmeat
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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:50 am
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:04 pm 
 

PureNegativism wrote:
Given that Melodic Death Metal is usually a complete misnomer a shift in that naming convention would be welcome.

I vaguely recall hearing that at some point a distinction between Doom/Death acts like early My Dying Bride and traditional Doom Metal was made, referring to them as 'Dirge Metal'. I wish that had caught on in the larger metal consciousness, given that the two styles are so different yet both are commonly referred to as "doom'.

Dirge Metal wicked +1
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Oxenkiller
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:06 pm 
 

I've always kinda been annoyed by the "doom metal" tag myself, even though I can see why it fits. It's just kinda nebulous though, for the reasons stated above. A lot of those bands play what I would consider traditional heavy metal, but with slower tempos, e.g. Vitus, Cathedral, Reverend Bizarre, etc while other bands play more sludgy, ambient, type stuff that is completely different musical realm, (e.g. Wolvserpent) yet are all lumped in together collectivly as "doom metal." Yeah, "Dirge Metal" would work for some of these bands too.

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Odovacar
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 4:31 am
Posts: 290
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:19 pm 
 

Viking metal. Most of the bands under that classification fall under folk metal anyways, the rest under black metal.

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dreadmeat
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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:50 am
Posts: 6018
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:20 pm 
 

in the 70's black sabbath were rock or heavy metal? but now they are called doom.
if electric wizard and cathedral are the two biggest sabbath worship bands [or at least the most obvious] they'd be nu-doom? :( :nono:

i find all the different sub styles fascinating and confusing at the same time
my cd collection is split into countries, for the harder to classify bands, and styles for the more obvious ones.
two recent stacks that have grown a lot are hardcore and sludge

space metal is a good one, like sons of otis or ufomammut, or psychedelic doom?
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Desperta_Ferro
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:45 am
Posts: 608
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:27 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Power metal is also ill-fitting for the flowery, synth-heavy bands like Kamelot or Sonata Arctica.


Haha two of my favourite bands, but I agree that they don't fit with say, Rebellion or Jag Panzer in the same bag.
Edguy/Avantasia would? They are somewhat heavy in Hellfire Club, for example.
How would you call the euro-power then? romance/romantic metal... I quite like it, a little faggy, but proper.

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Twisted_Psychology
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:35 pm 
 

Sometimes I like to think Mastodon and their stoner/sludge metal ilk were just playing neckbeard metal.
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volutetheswarth
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:37 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:47 pm 
 

I think the metal genres are mostly fine. I think some should have different names but whatever would stand in it's place would be equally meh, if not more so. What ticks me off though is all these new sub-genres popping up like Deathcore, Djent, Djentcore, Electronicore and Mathcore. No to that I say, not everything needs a label and most of that music is so shit that it's far from worthy of a new title.

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