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Daemonlord
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 7:01 pm
Posts: 599
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:28 pm 
 

androdion wrote:
The article mentions that they're more willing to buy "digital files", not physical ones.

This one though has made lose a few minutes reading it, kind of interesting actually.


I like the way it says the labels are happy to embrace such forward thinking methods, and here today, 4 years after the article was written they still stick to the same old regime! Hahah.

The Radiohead experiment was an interesting one, I remember it well. The article says they got less than £3 in average for a download on the pay what you want scale, which wasn't even enough to pay for the album being made, hence why they quickly gave it an official release on XL records (if memory serves correctly) afterwards. Sure when the official release came out it shot to no 1 in the album charts, but wouldn't any album with that amount of publicity in the months before?! It's very blinkered journalism. The whole free downloads with ads thing is pretty much what spotify do these days, and from what I can gather, that serves people pretty well.

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Because less non-pirates are buying CDs. I know no-one that buys music anymore, barring the odd folk that hunt down albums because they're that much more into it.Also, a lot of people are now cherry-picking songs from the likes of itunes, or at least that's the suggested reason. If you doubt the validity of the study, it says in the article that pirates had to show proof of purchase. As for Century Media, they are attempting to crush a perceived threat.


I think the fact you think less non-pirates are buying CDs is simply due to the fact that there are less non pirates in existance these days (the fact you recognise yourself by saying no one you know buys music surely proves this). Thus, in turn the very reason that sales are dropping is because more people are illegally downloading, no? There is a generation who've never had to pay for music, and likely never will. Personally I know a fair few people who still do buy, and most tend to be 30+ years of age.
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androdion
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
Posts: 4191
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:44 pm 
 

Which again brings to mind what I said before. Either people have the education, upbringing or whatever you want to call it, to buy actual albums or they don't. That comes from the individual self as much as it comes from the downloads being available. It's actually a catch 22 in the end, think about it. If there wasn't the easiness that exists today would people that don't buy music even go through the trouble of getting it? Tape trading being a small thing, and more so of the ones really caring about music proved this right. At the same time if downloads weren't available, and with the amount of new releases every other day, wouldn't people who buy music be swamped in possible purchases and end up not buying as to not risk it? It has happened to me when I have, say, 30€ to spend on CDs and I find that there are nearly 50€ of albums equivalent in quality that I really would like to purchase. What usually happens is that I end up not buying any and cool off my jets, maybe a week later I go there again and I then buy one or two albums. This happens!

So if you have too much too easy it can go both ways, but if you too little it can go both ways as well. I reiterate that unless there's a change in the schematics of production, sales and marketing things will only worsen over time.

PS: Haven't checked the date of the article but if it's that old then yeah, wtf...
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Krav
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:24 am
Posts: 400
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:39 pm 
 

androdion wrote:
PS: @ Krav

That's OK, it's your stance and I respect it. Although I have to say that if I'm googling in order to download it's usually stuff from smaller labels rather than big ones, and that's due to personal taste. I can assure you though that it's easier to find a quality MP3 rip than a streaming one, and honestly I don't even listen to YT streaming because it sounds like shit most of the time. People complain about MP3s being compressed but streaming sources are more often than not shittier than MP3s.

It can happen that one downloads more than one can chew and that the "to buy list" gets increasingly larger, though that doesn't mean it will be put on halt. I've discussed this whole "do we have the right to download or not" issue with Napero via PM and the fact is that in a perfect world everyone would have enough money to purchase everything they really want and some more to be able to commit errors, i.e. buy shitty albums by accident. Matter of fact is that reality tell us otherwise and I have too little money to be spending it on trial and error runs. So do I download to avoid that? I do. Am I doing something wrong? Objectively speaking downloading illegally shared albums is wrong, but doesn't the fact that I only do it for personal use (instead of divulging it to friends and acquaintances) and to be able to know what to buy or not compensate that? Some will say it does and some will say it doesn't. Have I bought everything I've downloaded and haven't deleted because I liked? Nope, but I still intend on doing it despite how much time it may take. So does that make my actions condemnable in the end? Some will say it does some will say it doesn't. I don't actually need to justify myself as I could very well just say "fuck you I do what I want" but I'm a pretty rational guy that is able to see both sides of each question and find some truth in both of them.


I definitely understand this perspective as well and I don't necessarily think it's wrong, especially since there are a lot of case by case situations that could affect it, like a certain band's perspective. I don't like doing it your way for the reasons I listed in my post but I understand why other people do. You also make a good point about the buying not being put on halt (one I knew but didn't consider during my first post). It's definitely still supporting music this way even if not everything is ultimately bought.

androdion wrote:
If people are doing to download the albums anyway, and labels know this firsthand, why not stream the whole upcoming album for a week or two? Let people know what they can expect and cut them off after a while so they buy it if they want to listen to it.


This is a great idea and I'm kind of surprised it isn't being done more.

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
That's a pity, because you'd be right if you did.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/ap ... more-music


Firstly, 2,000 people is an incredibly small sample for something like this, even if it was sufficiently random and well conducted.

Secondly...

article wrote:
those who download music illegally are also 10 times more likely to pay for songs than those who don't


In other words, people who are really into music are more likely to buy music than people who aren't. And people who are really into music are also more likely to pirate than people who aren't. Because if someone doesn't pirate music, and they also don't pay for it, how are they listening to it? Radio/tv maybe? Or not at all? In these cases, they probably aren't into music very much and wouldn't be buying much of it anyways.

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Evil_Johnny_666
Reigning king of the night

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:54 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:10 pm 
 

This is again trying to cheat on us. There are several factors into consideration, but the price is definitely one. I think trying before buying is valid, even more when some items have their prices boasted, which labels like CM do. They sell vinyl which were pressed in 2000+ quantities much more than labels who press quite a bit less. And sometimes they repress old albums without paying royalties back to the band, they just take a master tape off the shelve, sometimes remaster it, and to the pressing plant with a slightly new layout. Then, because people show them they are not ready to dish out that much for what they offer, they get all offended. Just offer better products that are worth it. And wasn't CM who recently bootlegged Grotesque too? You know these guys are in for the cash and don't care if it's too expensive, they just want you to buy the damn thing.

You can talk day and night about reduced sales to the artists and such, but I'll be quite weary to support a label who have no respect for their consumers. I'd rather get their releases via shows or ebay, the (small) artists don't really get any money from the label anyway. Plus, it's not because I download an album that I would've bought it in the first place, but sometimes it can make be buy something, and that's a definitive plus. You don't have infinite money, and sometimes (often) that money that you don't use for a CM product is money you put on a HHR product. Usually not buying something just makes me want to try something else. Get competitive or something!

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Poisonfume
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:26 pm
Posts: 1069
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:05 am 
 

Iced Earth fb page update one hour ago:

Quote:
To show that you can listen to ICED EARTH completely legal at all times, please share this Spotify album link for our newest album 'DYSTOPIA' as much as you can!

http://open.spotify.com/album/2qaldG8mSTZIrKbKFTxeTg
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UnearthlyDoom
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 21
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:26 am 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
In the days of cassette decks, you could record songs directly off the radio and I myself made many mixed tapes this way. Was this "stealing?"

If you dubbed a vinyl record or CD onto a tape, or copied a cassette version of an album, was this "stealing?" Back then, very few people, including most of the recording industry themselves(!), would have agreed that it was.

Now, suppose someone was to go and print up some bogus cassette sleeves, and make multiple copies of these aforementioned dubbed cassettes, and sell them themselves. Even back then, industry people would have had a problem with this, because this would involve illegally profiting off someone else's work. It was the same issue with bootleg releases- the wrong people making money off of an artist.
. Whatever the ethics of it are, I canNOT support Century Media over this!

Not that I agree with CM here, but
All rights reserved. Unauthorized broadcasting copying hiring public performance of this record prohibited.

Printed on most CDs.

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androdion
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
Posts: 4191
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:47 am 
 

You know a funny thing about that law? If you're DJing music at a club the law requires you to have the original CDs to be able to do so, at least it does in my country. And yet you're taking advantage of music that doesn't belong to you and that you bought for personal use and literally broadcasting it to an audience, and more so you're doing so in order to get a profit. OK, not a direct profit from the music but indirectly from drinks and whatnot, while people are listening to the music.

Even the laws can be contradictory you see?!
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UnearthlyDoom
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 21
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:51 am 
 

DJs are gay. Haha. Yeah its similar to hearing music on the PA in-between sets.
Im not sure about the law concerning DJs. Must have a loophole to get around the copyright law. It will be something to do with radio broadcasting maybe.

I quoted the tape recording part to point out it is not a new law. Everyone still did it anyway. Bootlegging is much worse for the artists and labels. DLs must make a negative impact though.

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Apteronotus
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 782
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:48 am 
 

In the US, music played in the background in places like gyms, restaurants, bars, elevators, is licensed by performance rights organizations: BMI, ASCAP, and to a lesser extent, SESAC. These licensing agencies cover a lot of music, BMI alone claims that about half the songs played on the radio in the US are BMI licensed. A DJ would be covered by a restaurant's license just as a cover band would. I remember going to a Chinese restaurant once and seeing a logo for one of these organizations on the glass near the entrance. These organizations occasionally sue restaurants but to much less public fanfare.
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D3athCr0ak
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:04 pm
Posts: 12
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:21 pm 
 

Hastein45 wrote:
If someone stole something from you would you be upset as well. At the rate I have seen some people download music and movies, I have seen thousands of dollars stolen from these people. You are taking food off of their table. I hope any and all of you who abuse downloading get caught and prosecuted.


Half of the world population would be probably be in jail if that were to happen :lol:

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Oxenkiller
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 1201
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:14 pm 
 

So, if I go an record a song on a cassette radio/tape deck that's on the radio, am I guilty of "Stealing" or "Taking money off someone's table?" I don't think so.

I think the ethical issue rests more with UPloaders rather than downloaders. People who upload these songs to share sites for other people to download are far more guilty, and if the record companies really want to crack down on file sharing, these are the people who they should go after. But as it is, it just souds like they are trying to nail the little guy just to "Make an example out of them."


Ridiculous, bad policy, bad publicity, just...a bad deal all around.

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swayze
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:10 pm
Posts: 306
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:09 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
I feel sorry for anyone who is being sued for downloading this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Siubz3wJ9sc


I listened to one second of that, skipped ahead a minute and listened to another second, then closed Youtube and farted loudly. That's what I think of that shit.

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UnearthlyDoom
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 21
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:40 am 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
So, if I go an record a song on a cassette radio/tape deck that's on the radio, am I guilty of "Stealing" or "Taking money off someone's table?" I don't think so.

I think the ethical issue rests more with UPloaders rather than downloaders. People who upload these songs to share sites for other people to download are far more guilty, and if the record companies really want to crack down on file sharing, these are the people who they should go after. But as it is, it just souds like they are trying to nail the little guy just to "Make an example out of them."


Ridiculous, bad policy, bad publicity, just...a bad deal all around.


Agree with you, but stealing is taking what is not yours. It doesn't need to be profitable.
Artists get a small amount from every time a song of theirs is played on the radio.
The uploaders are the ones, true.



Also, for the people who say second hand is not supporting the artist... the album was purchased so the money already went to them.

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The Animator
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:41 am
Posts: 256
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:18 am 
 

Big corporations have lawyers, lawyers make money by taking people to court. And when people like them will do anything to keep there job, the little guy gets fucked. Unfortunately its more popular to have a big wallet then a sense of justice and fair treatment of your fellow man.

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Daemonlord
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 7:01 pm
Posts: 599
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:32 am 
 

Oxenkiller wrote:
I think the ethical issue rests more with UPloaders rather than downloaders. People who upload these songs to share sites for other people to download are far more guilty, and if the record companies really want to crack down on file sharing, these are the people who they should go after. .


This is a very good point, and I agree entirely. If something can be done to at least curb uploaders, I don't think there'll be a massive uprising of downloaders suddenly becoming uploaders to fill the void. At the moment, I think the fact that search engines will allow you to type in an artist, along with an album title and the word 'torrent' or 'blogspot' to the search box to bring up pages and pages of available illegal downloads really doesn't help things. It just makes it that much easier.
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androdion
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
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Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:31 am 
 

As much as I agree as well there's always to consider the fact that search engines can (and more importantly should) only block results shown and not limit the search patterns. There's a fine line towards censorship right there if companies start banning keyword input from web searches. And we already see blocked results on Google due to copyright claims for a long time.
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Daemonlord
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 7:01 pm
Posts: 599
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:34 am 
 

androdion wrote:
As much as I agree as well there's always to consider the fact that search engines can (and more importantly should) only block results shown and not limit the search patterns. There's a fine line towards censorship right there if companies start banning keyword input from web searches. And we already see blocked results on Google due to copyright claims for a long time.


Aye, censorship is the big issue - which is why the likes of Google have refused to do anything about it, even after mass protests and constant cajoling from the music industry. However, now we find ourselves in an age where certain ISPs are starting bow to pressure by blocking renowned illegal sites (in the U.K anyhow), it'll be interesting to see what happens in the coming years.
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ogmetal
Veteran of the Psychic Wars

Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:22 pm
Posts: 3960
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:35 am 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
Dragunov wrote:
Wait, didn't CM release a bootleg of a Grotesque album not too long ago or something?


They licensed it from Black Sun Records and put it on a disc with At The Gates' first EP without telling the members other than Tomas Lindberg. Tompa mentioned on the ATG DVD that their contract with Black Sun was terrible and the royalty rate was something like one cent per record, so I'd guess BSR owned the full rights and didn't need to inform or pay royalties to the other band members.


No, he's talking about the recent 2LP that Century Media released.

Apparently CM bought Black Sun's catalog and assumed they owned the rights to the Grotesque material when (as I was told) Kristian Wahlin owned the material (not Black Sun) and Kristian had a deal with The Crypt to release this material for quite some time. There was no word of the Grotesque release until it was on the streets. This is what I've heard about the whole situation.

At any rate, I've went ahead and made a Dark Descent band camp page. I'd much prefer people stream legally instead of worrying about downloads. I've gotten a lot of feedback from people who don't download but have wanted to hear an album and after listening it has made their purchases much easier. It's pretty simple with me...you listen, you like, you possibly buy. If not enough people buy, I stop eventually. It is business and you have to realize business is a lot different nowadays. I certainly hope those dedicated few keep buying because I certainly wish to put out more releases.

http://darkdescentrecords.bandcamp.com/ (only a fraction of the releases are streaming (less than 30) as I'm working on getting most, if not all, up on the site.
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Apteronotus
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 782
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:49 am 
 

The Animator wrote:
Big corporations have lawyers, lawyers make money by taking people to court. And when people like them will do anything to keep there job, the little guy gets fucked. Unfortunately its more popular to have a big wallet then a sense of justice and fair treatment of your fellow man.


This is incredibly ignorant. The problem is the enormous penalty in the law, not greed.
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ogmetal
Veteran of the Psychic Wars

Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:22 pm
Posts: 3960
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:52 am 
 

aaronmb666 wrote:

While cd sales are down from illegal downloading, I think it's more down because people are buying digital albums instead.


Not really sure about that.

On the point of distribution, I have several distributors (RED, Code 7/Plastichead/Sound Pollution). In the case of Code 7/PhD, they have suggested manufacturer's prices and I mark my releases to them a pound less than what they suggest. This is on top of the shipping costs them in the UK, the manufacturing cost (purely the cost to manufacture) and all the other things that go into a release (advertising, recording, mixing/mastering, artwork, royalties, etc.). Plus, if something doesn't sell and it gets returned to me, I pay for return shipping and return fees per unit.

People hear how much CDs cost to make but don't realize there's a lot more that goes into it. Honestly, the money from the distributors isn't what keeps me going as the per unit profit isn't much but it's the thought of moving some units and getting it out there for people to see/hear. This promotes the bands and the label and this eventually gets more people listening (hopefully). Ultimately, most of the bands have one goal...to play more shows. So I try to accommodate that by attempting to get their music out there. Digital download sales are very poor in this niche genre of metal (I'm sure this is different if I released stuff that was a little hipper but I don't cater to the iPod crowd) but I still have it available digitally. I'm not in the business of selling singles.

I'm sure CM has an end goal of what they want to achieve. Obviously my goal is a little different. I don't have to pay rent for large buildings, salary for a bunch of employees or pay bands like Iwrestledabearonce or Destiny Potato.
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androdion
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
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Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:57 am 
 

ogmetal wrote:
http://darkdescentrecords.bandcamp.com/

You rule Matt! ;)

It takes some balls to take a stance like this at times of uncertainty, but I think I won't be too far from the truth when I say that you have nothing to lose in doing this and that probably you'll even gain some more followers. Now if all labels had such down-to-earth and intelligent people behind them they probably wouldn't complain so much.
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Corpsey the Clown
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:38 pm
Posts: 192
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:10 pm 
 

Dear Century Media,

Go to hell. It's not the year 2000 anymore and the vast majority of 'heads are going to rake you over the coals for this decision. Including those who still pay for their metal *ahem.*

Good day...

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aaronmb666
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:37 am
Posts: 1646
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:40 pm 
 

ogmetal wrote:
aaronmb666 wrote:

While cd sales are down from illegal downloading, I think it's more down because people are buying digital albums instead.


Not really sure about that.

On the point of distribution, I have several distributors (RED, Code 7/Plastichead/Sound Pollution). In the case of Code 7/PhD, they have suggested manufacturer's prices and I mark my releases to them a pound less than what they suggest. This is on top of the shipping costs them in the UK, the manufacturing cost (purely the cost to manufacture) and all the other things that go into a release (advertising, recording, mixing/mastering, artwork, royalties, etc.). Plus, if something doesn't sell and it gets returned to me, I pay for return shipping and return fees per unit.

People hear how much CDs cost to make but don't realize there's a lot more that goes into it. Honestly, the money from the distributors isn't what keeps me going as the per unit profit isn't much but it's the thought of moving some units and getting it out there for people to see/hear. This promotes the bands and the label and this eventually gets more people listening (hopefully). Ultimately, most of the bands have one goal...to play more shows. So I try to accommodate that by attempting to get their music out there. Digital download sales are very poor in this niche genre of metal (I'm sure this is different if I released stuff that was a little hipper but I don't cater to the iPod crowd) but I still have it available digitally. I'm not in the business of selling singles.

I'm sure CM has an end goal of what they want to achieve. Obviously my goal is a little different. I don't have to pay rent for large buildings, salary for a bunch of employees or pay bands like Iwrestledabearonce or Destiny Potato.


Theres only two stores where I could physically buy a cd now: Best Buy and Slackers(independent store that has metal). I went to best buy a few months ago for the first time in at least a year, and the music section wasnt even half the size as it used to be. I went there to get the new Six Feet Under album and I browsed the albums and the only metal albums I even noticed were some Slayer ones. The only way to even buy metal cd's is online.
As far as promoting an album, I dont think bands need much more than facebook and their own site. And artwork, the only artwork that really impresses me anymore are shitty underground death metal bands(jon zig, especialy).

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ogmetal
Veteran of the Psychic Wars

Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:22 pm
Posts: 3960
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:56 pm 
 

aaronmb666 wrote:
Theres only two stores where I could physically buy a cd now: Best Buy and Slackers(independent store that has metal). I went to best buy a few months ago for the first time in at least a year, and the music section wasnt even half the size as it used to be. I went there to get the new Six Feet Under album and I browsed the albums and the only metal albums I even noticed were some Slayer ones. The only way to even buy metal cd's is online.
As far as promoting an album, I dont think bands need much more than facebook and their own site. And artwork, the only artwork that really impresses me anymore are shitty underground death metal bands(jon zig, especialy).


That doesn't mean that people are electing to buy mp3s just because physical CDs are disappearing from shelves. Best Buy has cut their music selection dramatically in the last couple of years. Yes, they have a great selection online (you can even buy Dark Descent titles from their site). This doesn't mean that mp3 sales are the cause of dwindling CD sales. I have digital sales sheets to prove it. CDs have been a loss leader for them.

ha...well, your facebook and own site promotion campaign really wouldn't work if you were trying to sell more than 20 albums, let's just put it that.
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ogmetal
Veteran of the Psychic Wars

Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:22 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:04 pm 
 

aaronmb666 wrote:
And artwork, the only artwork that really impresses me anymore are shitty underground death metal bands(jon zig, especialy).


Missed this one too. Just because something doesn't impress you, doesn't mean it doesn't cost money.

A guy like Rich Friend (who did this album cover and does work for DC Comics) isn't going to spend over 120 hours to pen and ink a piece like this for free.

Image
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Techno Viper
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:55 pm
Posts: 40
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:59 pm 
 

I don't understand the big deal. Metalheads are famous for being loyal to their music. Every metal head I know personally (4 including myself) has a HUGE cd/vinyl collection. Do I download? Sure. Who doesn't? But I support the bands I like, Vektor for example. Me and my buddy Don from Don's Atomic comics (look on the Outer Isolation thank you list) sent Vektor 150$ through paypal when there bus broke down. I downloaded "Black Future" Yep, guilty as charged. I then bought the cd proper, bought a shirt, and the vinyl. When they came to my town, me and Don spent over 100 bucks each at the merch table, bought them beer and I even slipped Erik a twenty, 'cause I love their music so much. Every metal fan I know, when they discover a band they like tries to get the real deal cd/ vinyl for their collection anyways. MP3's suck compared to the real cd.Compare a cd downloaded at 320 kpbs and then put in the real thing. There's no comparison. In fact I would love to find Zigoku Quartet's real cds, but I can't seem to find 'em.The music industry should be concerned with the rap/pop/r&b crowd. They don't buy the real thing ever.

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aaronmb666
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:37 am
Posts: 1646
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:22 pm 
 

ogmetal wrote:
aaronmb666 wrote:
And artwork, the only artwork that really impresses me anymore are shitty underground death metal bands(jon zig, especialy).


Missed this one too. Just because something doesn't impress you, doesn't mean it doesn't cost money.

A guy like Rich Friend (who did this album cover and does work for DC Comics) isn't going to spend over 120 hours to pen and ink a piece like this for free.

Image


Im just saying that the only good thing about those albums is the artwork. One of my annoyances on amazon as far as a digital album, is you save, say $3 if you buy the whole one, instead of individual tracks...yet a lot of albums have pointless intros, etc.
Personally, it annoys me when bands make videos now, when the only place you'll see it is on youtube. It costs money to make them, yet they complain about losing it.

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The Animator
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:41 am
Posts: 256
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:05 am 
 

Apteronotus wrote:
The Animator wrote:
Big corporations have lawyers, lawyers make money by taking people to court. And when people like them will do anything to keep there job, the little guy gets fucked. Unfortunately its more popular to have a big wallet then a sense of justice and fair treatment of your fellow man.


This is incredibly ignorant. The problem is the enormous penalty in the law, not greed.


The "enormous penalty" is an enormous fine that will most likely destroy a humans life unless they are able to pay it, which is doubtful since they probably wouldn't be downloading music illegally if they had money for luxuries. Many of the large corporations that were trying to pass SOPA, were affiliated with the companies that made the file sharing software available in the first place. The only problem we are dealing with is greed. Greed of individuals stealing music files, and a greater greed of the entertainment industry.

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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2107
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:13 am 
 

While I know the label's measures won't be really useful, boycotting the label it's the same. Just saying, the bands have no guilt on this and, if a band that I like happens to be signed on CM, I'll be buying their albums, cause very, very few bands can release their own stuff and have a decent distribution by themselves, at least for now (pro studios are really expensive, to print some thousands of copies too, etc).

The problem is that the downloaders are too many and the technology it's not there for recognizing them (the internet providers are supposedly have a detailed info about everything we do on internet), but I really think downloading it's basically wrong, so I bought all the stuff I can from my fav bands and albums.

The 'industry' might work without labels? what if every band drop their contracts with labels to simply get a Bandcamp profile and sell their stuff directly to the fans? the problem is that since you can get 'ilegally' stuff for free, why you would pay for it? I don't think like that (I download the albums that I can't get by any means), but many people do so. Since downloaders are not going anywhere, CM is doing what they must as a business: to protect their interests from the people who's 'stealing' from them.
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FengisRipRider
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:31 pm
Posts: 63
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:31 pm 
 

Century Media IMO releases some of the worst music of any heavy metal lable. Not sure why anybody cares about this. Seems to me like century media is about to go out of bussiness and they are making a last attempt to bring in some money before the CEO's pack up ship.

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Dettigers
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:18 pm
Posts: 125
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:54 pm 
 

FengisRipRider wrote:
Century Media IMO releases some of the worst music of any heavy metal lable. Not sure why anybody cares about this. Seems to me like century media is about to go out of bussiness and they are making a last attempt to bring in some money before the CEO's pack up ship.



Then don't by there stuff. But when you illegal download stuff it makes it harder and harder to get music you like. Why should a band waste there time making a new album when people going and illegal download it? Why should a label give them money and so on? You wonder why some bands never come to different places? The band and label see the figures of the people the buy said CD in said area. If the sells are low why come?

Quote:
The 'industry' might work without labels? what if every band drop their contracts with labels to simply get a Bandcamp profile and sell their stuff directly to the fans? the problem is that since you can get 'ilegally' stuff for free, why you would pay for it? I don't think like that (I download the albums that I can't get by any means), but many people do so. Since downloaders are not going anywhere, CM is doing what they must as a business: to protect their interests from the people who's 'stealing' from them.


Because not ever band has the money to work on there own. It's costs money to make the CD.

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inhumanist
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 3917
Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:23 pm 
 

Dettigers wrote:
Why should a band waste there time making a new album when people going and illegal download it? Why should a label give them money and so on?

That's a really good question. I guess there's no reason because obviously everyone just sorta stopped making albums.

Quote:
But when you illegal download stuff it makes it harder and harder to get music you like.

Wait, downloading makes getting music harder? Sounds kinda paradoxical to me.
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DARKZSOU7
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:54 am
Posts: 68
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:22 pm 
 

Well CM does have a valid point and even though I download alot. Only cause I follow the try before you buy rule and I end up buying the cd most of the time otherwise I delete the download. But its surprising people would just boycott CM just because of this. I still support artists no matter what label and I just bought 3 Grave albums from the CM for a good price too.

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4520
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:38 pm 
 

androdion wrote:
You know a funny thing about that law? If you're DJing music at a club the law requires you to have the original CDs to be able to do so, at least it does in my country. And yet you're taking advantage of music that doesn't belong to you and that you bought for personal use and literally broadcasting it to an audience, and more so you're doing so in order to get a profit. OK, not a direct profit from the music but indirectly from drinks and whatnot, while people are listening to the music.

Even the laws can be contradictory you see?!


Venues are supposed to report songs played and pay a flat fee to ASCAP/BMI to pay out royalties for that, it works the same way when bands cover other bands - the venue is responsible for accurately reporting this. Clubs need to advertise heavily, so I'd assume most reputable ones handle it properly as it's kinda hard to hide.

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androdion
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
Posts: 4191
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:19 pm 
 

That's most likely true but I'll be damned if I ever saw a club owner do such a thing here in my country. And I've met a few! What's funny is that paying due royalties depends on having an entity responsible for the liaison between club owners and copyright associations. Here we only have the "copyright police" that shuts down your bar if the DJ is playing CD-Rs. I guess that we're far away from a perfect world hein?! :)

Of course bigger clubs with high-profile publicity will probably be under the headlights but small town clubs are basically ripping off the labels, and probably even more than any given downloader.
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Dettigers
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:18 pm
Posts: 125
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:34 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Dettigers wrote:
Why should a band waste there time making a new album when people going and illegal download it? Why should a label give them money and so on?

That's a really good question. I guess there's no reason because obviously everyone just sorta stopped making albums.

Quote:
But when you illegal download stuff it makes it harder and harder to get music you like.

Wait, downloading makes getting music harder? Sounds kinda paradoxical to me.


When a band can't pay to go into a studio to even record there music yes it makes it harder. I will ask it again. Why should a band keep making music if ever time people are going to download it? They either need to make money on there music or get a job because it's costs money to make the CD and even record the music to put it out there.

Why do that if people are just going to download it? They won't even get any good tours because of the illegal downloading. Why should a band you like get on a good tour when the sells are not good. It tells them and the label that nobody cares.

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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
Posts: 5212
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:29 pm 
 

Obviously they know people care, and most bands aren't dumb; they know people download music now.

But, it must be frustrating to have people love your music but not pay for it.
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Evil_Johnny_666
Reigning king of the night

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:54 pm
Posts: 3969
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:50 pm 
 

Dettigers wrote:
FengisRipRider wrote:
Century Media IMO releases some of the worst music of any heavy metal lable. Not sure why anybody cares about this. Seems to me like century media is about to go out of bussiness and they are making a last attempt to bring in some money before the CEO's pack up ship.



Then don't by there stuff. But when you illegal download stuff it makes it harder and harder to get music you like. Why should a band waste there time making a new album when people going and illegal download it? Why should a label give them money and so on? You wonder why some bands never come to different places? The band and label see the figures of the people the buy said CD in said area. If the sells are low why come?

Downloading or not buying the album doesn't change much, other than the ''illegal downloading stats''. The question is attracting buyers, not make people who wouldn't buy the album in the first place stop downloading it.

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FengisRipRider
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:31 pm
Posts: 63
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:09 pm 
 

Dettigers wrote:
FengisRipRider wrote:
Century Media IMO releases some of the worst music of any heavy metal lable. Not sure why anybody cares about this. Seems to me like century media is about to go out of bussiness and they are making a last attempt to bring in some money before the CEO's pack up ship.



Then don't by there stuff. But when you illegal download stuff it makes it harder and harder to get music you like. Why should a band waste there time making a new album when people going and illegal download it? Why should a label give them money and so on? You wonder why some bands never come to different places? The band and label see the figures of the people the buy said CD in said area. If the sells are low why come?

I never said I buy their music, also I never said I download music, I really believe that they are going out of business and are trying to salvage every last penny before they do it. Seems like the last ditch attempt of a desperate company right now.

Quote:
The 'industry' might work without labels? what if every band drop their contracts with labels to simply get a Bandcamp profile and sell their stuff directly to the fans? the problem is that since you can get 'ilegally' stuff for free, why you would pay for it? I don't think like that (I download the albums that I can't get by any means), but many people do so. Since downloaders are not going anywhere, CM is doing what they must as a business: to protect their interests from the people who's 'stealing' from them.


Because not ever band has the money to work on there own. It's costs money to make the CD.


Then they should get real jobs and fund their music that way, I will never feel sorry for some jerk who wants to make money playing or selling music and nothing else, and can't afford to do it. If you really like music that much you will make it, if all you have is some hokey dream of making a living doing nothing but "playing" all day long then thats your bed and you get to sleep in it when you don't make it. Live with the rest of us.

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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2107
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:29 pm 
 

FengisRipRider wrote:
Then they should get real jobs and fund their music that way, I will never feel sorry for some jerk who wants to make money playing or selling music and nothing else, and can't afford to do it.


So, you might work hard making music, recording it, releasing it, promoting it being in publicity or touring with all what it takes to make it work but you CAN'T earn money off it and getting a label to cover some of those costs? Fuck off, seriously.

I wouldn't know or it would have never been released like 95% of the albums that I like if a label wasn't behind the band, especially some decades ago when people couldn't record music by themselves and HAD to get a studio to do the job, which has been always expensive.

Look, virtual instruments and cheap recording equipment was unexistant, let alone computers and all that stuff to make it like the one-man bands of today that install Reaper or a cracked version of Cubase, buy a cheap Behringer guitar input, download a cracked Guitar rig and voilá! you have an 'album'.
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