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TheLiberation
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:22 pm 
 

(I wasn't quite certain where to put this thread; it's more of a "general idea about the band" than "why are they not allowed on MA" thread so I thought it doesn't belong in suggestions. If wrong, please move the thread)

Ok, I know some people are going to jump at me with axes and stuff for this and I hope to not cause a shitstorm, but anyway: I've been reading various posts (some over time, some just now with the Search thingy) about why this band is generally considered to be whatevercore rather than metal around here, and I am a little puzzled.

Note: we're not talking about the entire djent subgenre. We're talking about this one band.

I've generally seen djent as a whole to be seen as rather metalcorish and laughed at for various reasons, and the funny thing is, most of the stuff I've read about that does not apply to Periphery themselves. Djent is usually cited to be crap for the (ab)use of 8-strings and permanent chugging, ridiculously low tunings, all bands sounding more or less the same, full-on Meshuggah worship and stuff like that. Like I said, this basically doesn't apply to Periphery (I won't bore you with technical stuff here, but there is plenty of that), and from what I've read their influences have far more to do with metal than with any -core subgenres - I'm pretty certain Dream Theater counts as at least as important for them as Meshuggah as an influence, and when reading about bands/musicians they consider to be an influence, I have indeed seen some non-metal bands often mentioned (such as Deftones for example), but then I've seen lots of quite certainly metal bands and guitarists appear - from James Hetfield and Randy Rhoads to... Ihsahn or Immortal.

While they definitely do have some hardcore or metalcore leanings in their sound - especially the vocals, alright, but that's an entirely separate and not any less terrifying topic - I see and hear far more progressive metal and technical extreme metal in them (with a metalcorish touch for a more melodic feel and a very smooth-sounding production) than any sort of hardcore. I'm quite curious if there is something I'm missing here, but simply in most discussions about them I've seen here, they were instantly discarded as an utterly non-metal band, and it often seemed to me like a judgement based on pretty superficial reasons.

This is not about whether you like them or not - I'm just curious why are they so strongly, undeniably considered to be non-metal, and also why are they thrown together with the entirety of the djent subgenre... if they don't even share a fair part of aspects it's generally associated with.
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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:31 pm 
 

They don't sound like metal, having distorted guitars and chuggy rhythms do not make them metal. And it's not progressive, I'm not sure if you know what that actually refers to.

Just because a band has metal influences doesn't make them a metal band as well.
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TheLiberation
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:36 pm 
 

It's not about distorted guitars and chuggy riffs, I'm not someone who thinks anything that sounds heavy is metal. What I'm trying to say is that there is actually plenty of metal style and influence - in their guitar style, songwriting, whatever - and far more than any sort of hardcore influence.

They maybe aren't a full-on progressive band, but they definitely do have progressive influences, everything from atmosphere, through crazy rhythm and technicality, to unusual song structures.
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Errebuss
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:07 pm
Posts: 548
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:53 am 
 

Is this the band?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUltTV3t4OM

Sounds like a heavier version of Saosin to me. Where are the riffs?

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KE3useer
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 2:09 am
Posts: 139
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:24 am 
 

They are definitely metal and belong on the archives. Just like any other djent/metalcore band.

If Lamb of God somehow finds a place on this site, why can't bands like Periphery, Between the Buried and Me, and Protest the Hero? And yes, they are metal, before that issue is even brought up, even if they aren't elitist metal at the core.

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Syntek
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:14 pm
Posts: 615
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:33 am 
 

The vocals annoyed me to all extents at first, but I've actually really come to enjoy their first album and especially their EP.
Their second album just meanders for me, though.

To be honest, the only problem I've ever had is the singer ruining potentially great riffs with his morbidly over-soulful vocals. I still fail to see how that disqualifies them from being metal, however.

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Paganbasque
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:28 am
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Location: Basque Country
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:26 am 
 

Well, it happens with lots of core bands, I personally think that they should be accepted here, but I am quite open minded in this aspect and it seems that the ones who decide this have a different opinion. Anyway, this is not my personal web so I have to accept some rules and decisions even if I dont agree.

One example is Mnemic, a industrial metal/core band, I do not understand why they are not accepted but I cant do anything against this.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 11979
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:28 am 
 

I guess I just don't hear the metal elements you are talking about cause 'crazy rhythm and technicality, to unusual song structures.' are not strictly metal elements. There are plenty of other genres that also utilize these to a high degree. Hell there are a bunch of noise/math rock bands that utilize these elements and are even more aggresive and actually heavier than Periphery, but they aren't metal.
Not that it really matters, site is privately owned and whatever the collective that was chosen to help run it.. says goes.
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novakm
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:52 pm
Posts: 179
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:27 am 
 

I think it's more of a reactionary thing as to why they aren't accepted on here (same with Mnemic). Anyone who says either of those bands isn't metal isn't paying attention. Kind of like how Soulfly wasn't accepted on here for a long time despite releasing a metal album in 2005 in Dark Ages and continuing to release metal albums after that.

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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2396
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:42 am 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
I guess I just don't hear the metal elements you are talking about cause 'crazy rhythm and technicality, to unusual song structures.' are not strictly metal elements. There are plenty of other genres that also utilize these to a high degree. Hell there are a bunch of noise/math rock bands that utilize these elements and are even more aggresive and actually heavier than Periphery, but they aren't metal.
Not that it really matters, site is privately owned and whatever the collective that was chosen to help run it.. says goes.


This sums it pretty much.

From a more personal standpoint, I can't hear metal songwriting and riffs in djent. It's just a chug in 'weird' time signatures and Periphery does it too. It really doesn't matter how 'heavy' it may sound, see grindcore for example. It's fast and 'brutal' but not metal, simple as that. Not cause it has heavily distorted guitars means it's metal. It's too 'modern hardcore' in the core to be considered metal IMO.

I, for instance, consider most of Meshuggah's albums something not metal, but that's just me. Chaosphere onwards they just chug following a 'weird' beat, which can be easily associated in terms of songwriting (not sound per se) to electronic music or anything else. Even Rammstein has more metal riffing on their latter albums (Reise Reise onwards the riffing can be compared to Metallica's black album in terms of style, at least to my ears songs like Ich Tu Dir Weh, Liebe ist Für Alle Da, Benzin, Keine Lust or Reise, Reise are completely industrial metal stuff, but hell, the owners of the site don't think Rammstein should be included... just live with that).
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ld50
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:22 am
Posts: 499
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:55 am 
 

They've started from a point that wasn't very metal, musically, and they've continued with that trend. Unless they change their style and release an overtly metal album, they won't be on here.

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TheLiberation
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:01 am 
 

Errebuss wrote:
Is this the band?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUltTV3t4OM

Sounds like a heavier version of Saosin to me. Where are the riffs?

This is by far the poppiest and most metalcore-ish song they've ever released, many people love it but there's no way it's their typical sound. If you'd like a more representative song, I'd say try Make Total Destroy (first single from the second album) or Have a Blast. If you want the progressive side in its entirety, go for Racecar (it's pretty damn long, but imo worth every second).

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
I guess I just don't hear the metal elements you are talking about cause 'crazy rhythm and technicality, to unusual song structures.' are not strictly metal elements. There are plenty of other genres that also utilize these to a high degree. Hell there are a bunch of noise/math rock bands that utilize these elements and are even more aggresive and actually heavier than Periphery, but they aren't metal.
Not that it really matters, site is privately owned and whatever the collective that was chosen to help run it.. says goes.

I mentioned that as parts of them being - at least partially - progressive, not metal. As for metal, I believe it's more about their riffing - they definitely do have some hardcore riffs every now and then, but I'd say majority of the songs goes much closer to extreme metal or at least metalcore, just with weirder rhythm and a lot of melody.

I know that the rules of what is metal and what isn't is decided by the admins here, but I'm just wondering if this isn't a case where they have been overlooked a bit, and if there simply isn't some weird stereotype surrounding them - like I said, most people seem to put them in line with the entire djent genre (or however you want to call it), and then say that djent is not metal for reasons that don't even concern Periphery. Of course they are in no way a traditional metal band, but I see them more as innovators with some "out of metal" influence, rather than something completely alien.
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kingnuuuur
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:35 pm
Posts: 2128
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:02 am 
 

TheLiberation wrote:
I see and hear far more progressive metal and technical extreme metal in them (with a metalcorish touch for a more melodic feel and a very smooth-sounding production) than any sort of hardcore.
Errebuss wrote:

OK, this must be a joke, right? This is about as progressive as herpes and as technically extreme as goatse. No metal.

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TheLiberation
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:22 am 
 

Are you illiterate?
Quote:
This is by far the poppiest and most metalcore-ish song they've ever released, many people love it but there's no way it's their typical sound.
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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
Posts: 3445
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:27 am 
 

Here's "Icarus Lives": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfOnq-zXXBw

I do not hear any metalness at all in here. Sounds like one of those indie hard rock bands. Not metal.
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kingnuuuur
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:35 pm
Posts: 2128
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:26 am 
 

TheLiberation wrote:
Are you illiterate?

I could be. I'm still learning to read and spell; it's a continuous process you see. My hearing, however, is impeccable, and that song (Scarlet) isn't even metalcore-ish. Nu metal at best, and that's still not metal.

Also, I don't think you know what "hardcore" and "extreme metal" actually sound like. So yeah, not much point in arguing if you don't know what's what. If I hurt your feelings in any way, I promise I'll make it up to you by saying that Periphery are not a shit band.


Last edited by kingnuuuur on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4906
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:29 am 
 

Much like the virtuoso hard rock scene of the 80s and 90s showcased guys like Steve Vai and Joe Satriani, the more recent technical hardcore/metalcore scene shares a number of traits with metal bands, but when you listen to the music, it's apparent that it's not metal. The production may be similar to what is common in metal, but if you played AFI's "Black Sails in the Sunset" through Dismember's gear, would it be metal? Some of the riffs are similar to what is heard in metal! Add more distortion to Thursday and is it still post-hardcore or is it metal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3IagEQI75U

KE3useer wrote:
They are definitely metal and belong on the archives. Just like any other djent/metalcore band.

If Lamb of God somehow finds a place on this site, why can't bands like Periphery, Between the Buried and Me, and Protest the Hero? And yes, they are metal, before that issue is even brought up, even if they aren't elitist metal at the core.


This is a dumb argument that comes up time and time again. "I have a negative impression of this band and sense dislike towards them because of their prominence, therefore I will make a qualitative argument against them."

No, bands aren't judged on whether or not they are metal. We listen to them and discuss whether or not they are a metal band. Lamb of God are clearly and unambiguously a metal band. Protest the Hero? Really? They're not a metal band and not even close. I often wonder if the users who mostly come out to complain about bands on the archives have ever read the extensive documentation on the site, or Derigin's explanations that are so precisely worded that they could pass off as a treaty.

The bitching about Lamb of God and whining about "elitist metal" are naive idiocy. There are MA staffers, especially myself, who are fairly well versed in hardcore and metalcore, so when something with thick, slick production comes up I don't just think that chugging is metal riffing, I have a fairly large frame of reference in other types of music. Saying something isn't metal isn't any sort of judgment on quality, and this has been said just about as many times as people have whined about Lamb of God on these forums.

Wilytank wrote:
Here's "Icarus Lives": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfOnq-zXXBw

I do not hear any metalness at all in here. Sounds like one of those indie hard rock bands. Not metal.


Nu-metal riffing right there.

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TheLiberation
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:34 am 
 

kingnuuuur wrote:
TheLiberation wrote:
Are you illiterate?

I could be. I'm still learning to read and spell; it's a continuous process you see. My hearing, however, is impeccable, and that song (Scarlet) isn't even metalcore-ish. Nu metal at best, and that's still not metal.

Also, I don't think you know what "hardcore" and "extreme metal" actually sound like. So yeah, not much point in arguing if you don't know what's what. If I hurt your feelings in any way, I promise I'll make it up to you by saying that Periphery are not a shit band.

If for you Scarlet and Icarus Lives are enough to judge them - I think it's time to get rid of like 1/3 bands on MA, based on them having released non-metal singles. You're basically doing the equivalent of saying Metallica is not a metal band because their most known song is Nothing Else Matters.

Anyway, this is a representative Periphery song, and it's also a single:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spCmStMOiHE

If this is judged as definitely not metal - alright, I surrender. Just please tell me why and how. I'm not trying to act stupid or anything - I've just never spent much time discussing about what makes a band metal, and I'd like to know what do you mean by that. (And also, yes, I've read the site guidelines more than once.)
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Nochielo
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:20 am
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Location: Puerto Rico
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:34 am 
 

It's simple. Djent does not derive from metal. The word "djent" is not used in a derogatory fashion (it may have been initially, but they've embraced the term). As far as I'm concerned being influenced by Meshuggah (which has NEVER been a metal band, but I digress) does not count as being metal, in the same way the deceptively dubbed nu-metal is not metal because it doesn't come from metal. Grindcore is another example as someone else mentioned, it derives from hardcore so unless it has actual metal in it (as opposed to metal influences) it just isn't metal. Again it's not elitism, it's just common sense. How is this so hard to understand is inexplicable.
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Subrick
Metal freak

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:27 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:35 am 
 

Periphery to me have always just been a Meshuggah clone that added post-hardcore elements to their sound while not keeping any of the elements that make Meshuggah interesting, like the inventive polyrhythms and memorable songs. It just sounds like a bunch of guys playing random shit that coincidentally have the same key shifts and measure changes while some guy croons over it. Not metal in the slightest and certainly not very good.
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TheLiberation
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 615
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:42 am 
 

Nochielo wrote:
It's simple. Djent does not derive from metal. The word "djent" is not used in a derogatory fashion (it may have been initially, but they've embraced the term). As far as I'm concerned being influenced by Meshuggah (which has NEVER been a metal band, but I digress) does not count as being metal, in the same way the deceptively dubbed nu-metal is not metal because it doesn't come from metal. Grindcore is another example as someone else mentioned, it derives from hardcore so unless it has actual metal in it (as opposed to metal influences) it just isn't metal. Again it's not elitism, it's just common sense. How is this so hard to understand is inexplicable.

For the simple and primary reason that a) I explained in the OP how you're throwing Periphery together with all the djent bands when they're different than most of what djent is usually associated with, b) you and the guy below you managed to completely ignore all of that and repeat the same "it's Meshuggah with nu-metal added" cliche again.
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Subrick
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:44 am 
 

I said post-hardcore, not nu metal. Also, we're throwing them in with all the other djent bands because that's all they are; another faceless djent band. They just managed to become a bit more known than many others. Still doesn't change the unoriginal and derivative nature of their music.
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Zodijackyl
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:46 am 
 

TheLiberation wrote:
If this is judged as definitely not metal - alright, I surrender. Just please tell me why and how. I'm not trying to act stupid or anything - I've just never spent much time discussing about what makes a band metal, and I'd like to know what do you mean by that. (And also, yes, I've read the site guidelines more than once.)


There are:
-90,000 examples on this site.
-8000 posts about it here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=64985
-Another 8000 posts about it here: viewtopic.php?t=39064

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