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MetalArmy666
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:40 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:09 pm 
 

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/07/when-black-metals-anti-religious-message-gets-turned-on-islam/259680/

Interested to hear everyone's thoughts on Anti-Islamic metal, as that seems to be the new trend.

I really like Weapon and never really thought of them as anti-Islam, moreso I saw them as a satanist band. However, I'm curious how many bands are using this kind of imagery and lyrics?

Additionally, do you think that anti-Islam metal will be received the same way as NSBM? Will the mainstream never touch it and it have a negative effect on the bands and their associates? Will people take the art for what it is and not overreact? Do you think that this is a growing trend in metal?

I personally don't look at this in the same vein as NSBM. Probably because it isn't a bunch of racist white guys playing this music. It seems to be primarily artists from a muslim/middle eastern background.

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Carpathianchrist
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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:34 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:26 pm 
 

Trend?

By the way, most of the Middle Eastern Anti Islamic bands are probably fake, they stole their images from other bands and that article was badly researched.

Still though, my band has strong anti Islamic themes in lyrics and we are keen to expand on this due to having a more or less mutual agreement that the religion is slime. Hating Christianity is the "safe" option for black metal bands nowadays.

I recommend Ayat by the way.

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Kveldulfr
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:36 pm 
 

MetalArmy666 wrote:
Additionally, do you think that anti-Islam metal will be received the same way as NSBM? Will the mainstream never touch it and it have a negative effect on the bands and their associates? Will people take the art for what it is and not overreact? Do you think that this is a growing trend in metal?


No. In western culture no one gives a flying fuck about Islam. Trend? who knows...
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Carpathianchrist
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:48 pm 
 

By the way...No, being anti Islamic is nothing in the slightest like being racist.

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:00 pm 
 

There are actually very few bands that have clear anti islamic lyrics. This despite how mainstream it is to be negative about it. Might that actually be a reason? Ive also come across a few bands that were downright cheesy like at war from the us.

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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:19 pm 
 

These discussions always turn to shit.

For a brief answer: no, it's not the same.
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Folkemon_
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:40 pm 
 

Islam is a religion NOT a race, i hate is when people call you racist if you're anti-islamic.
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The Prophet Muhammad
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:58 pm 
 

Thread title = Absolutely fucking not.

The fact that Islam's political agenda scares white people away from criticizing their religion does not change the fact that a religion is all that it is. A really retarded one, at that.

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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:41 pm 
 

Since it seems to be more motivated by religious hate than racial, I can't say that I view it as being too different from Christian bashing. There is inevitably a political aspect to it and I am annoyed by that sort of thing, but all anti-religious lyrics are okay as long as they're aren't stupid about it. That said, Nile's Kafir and Exodus's Children Of A Worthless God are great songs even if the latter is rather boneheaded...
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Indecency
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:50 pm 
 

Jesus, what's with all these suicidal black metal musicians that always have to fid something to be anti about? Give it a rest.

The band in the link in the OP has already been proven to be a hoax and is probably some 40 year olds in the middle of Nevada.

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lancasterdrummer
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:22 am 
 

I don't think they are comparable. I'm not racist, but I am somewhat anti-Islam. I am also anti-Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, ahh screw it I'm just plain anti-religion.

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TheUglySoldier
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:39 am 
 

One of my best mates is Muslim, and I know others, and I don't see how their religion is at all separate from the likes of Christianity, nor do I treat it as such - I think it is ridiculous, but don't really have anything against people who practice it. You never know, Anti-Islam could over take Anti-Christianity, but only if it proves as shocking. Anti-Christianity doesn't often get a band on the good side of rednecks and bogans, but I can see Anti-Islam doing so. At the moment, however, the "trend" if you could call it that seems to be more so the denouncement of all religion, including Satanism and the like - which, hey ain't a bad thing in my book.
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Marag
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:47 am 
 

Islam is more or less the "enemy of the west" so I hardly see anti-islam bm having any impact, unless they manage piss off some muslim extremists who end up flying airplanes into black metal shows across the world in retaliation

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u_sir_r_a_faggot
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:14 am 
 

I really dont understand why these depressive suicidal black metal guys should be anti-islamic. They hate humanity and they want to kill everyone including themselves. The Islamic suicide bomber terrorists are doing this in real life instead of making songs about them sitting in their basement. So I think these black metallers should see them as role models instead of hating them.
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Carpathianchrist
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:56 am 
 

When did DSBM come into this?

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TheUglySoldier
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:49 am 
 

Marag wrote:
Islam is more or less the "enemy of the west"


Whut
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:56 am 
 

TheUglySoldier wrote:
Marag wrote:
Islam is more or less the "enemy of the west"


Whut


Yeah, overgeneralizing much? Change that to super radical cube beard islam is the "enemy" of the west (not acutally a major danger right now actually). Though I guess the version of Islam they are following is the closest to the purest form writting in the Koran. You know, the whole spreading religion with violence thingy. But that's not the version most Islamic people follow today.
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StellarGraves
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:16 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:03 am 
 

Anti Islamic BM sounds like something a lot more relevant than the Anti Christian version..
But, unlike "Aryan" bands from Russia or winter themed bands from Israel, it is only legit when you have a descent reason of writing Anti Islamic lyrics..

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BeastWithin
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:57 am
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:47 am 
 

There is a huge difference between hating people because of their ethnic components and hating religion, since people can choose their belief. So there is a fundomental difference between NSBM and Anti-Islam ideology. Allthough, both ideologies may combine with each other.

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csehszlovakze
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:13 am 
 

Since anti-Islam metal is not necessarily black, my answer is no, it's not NSBM.
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Veracs
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:23 am 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Marag wrote:
Islam is more or less the "enemy of the west"



Yeah, overgeneralizing much? Change that to super radical cube beard islam is the "enemy" of the west (not acutally a major danger right now actually). Though I guess the version of Islam they are following is the closest to the purest form writting in the Koran. You know, the whole spreading religion with violence thingy. But that's not the version most Islamic people follow today.


One can take his post two ways either he meant the politicized version of Islamophobia used by neoconservatives to garner support for the wars in the Middle east, or the actual political change that Islamic fundamentalist groups in the UK and other countries have used to change free speech laws on a situational basis to limit free speech itself. I would say he's not too far off calling it an enemy of the west since the very fundaments of the religion make it more or less a virus among countries that value individual liberty.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:51 am 
 

It isn't any different from black metal bands talking about killing Christians or what have you, so I could hardly call it NSBM. With that said, I'd be interested in which of these bands also have a national socialist stance anyway.

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The Prophet Muhammad
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:55 am 
 

Seems to be a serious double standard going on in metal. Can talk about butchering women and sawing off the heads of Christians but once you pick on the Muslims, we have to have the NSBM discussion. There is absolutely no connection..

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The_Beast_in_Black
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:06 am 
 

The problem lies in the fact that the majority of extreme nationalists (of the racist, NSBM stripe) in Europe are anti-Islam, as a large number of immigrants to these countries are Muslims. Attacks on Islam aren't racist, per se, but they can be a veil for what amounts to straight-up racism.

That said, I do think there is a significant double standard and that lots of people are irrationally inclined to knee-jerk cries of "RACIST!!!" whenever they see criticism of Islam. I think the religion is richly deserving of just as much scorn as Christianity and it's a shame that a lot of people get it into their heads that we mustn't dare offend those poor little Muslims by questioning their stupid religion. "Islamophobia" has become such a ridiculous snarl word these days, but the simple fact is that a large number of critics of Islam in black metal probably do skew towards the NS direction.
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Carpathianchrist
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:56 am 
 

The Prophet Muhammad wrote:
Seems to be a serious double standard going on in metal. Can talk about butchering women and sawing off the heads of Christians but once you pick on the Muslims, we have to have the NSBM discussion. There is absolutely no connection..



This. All the scene kids and other assorted douche bags have started going about in inverted cross shirts and shit like that, and the spread of deathcore has introduced anti Christian music as the new "trendy" thing to do. It's the same people who two years ago were all listening to As I lay Dying and other assorted Christ-core bands, and now they are wearing inverted crosses because it is "cool". I am yet to hear an anti Islamic Core band because it is not socially acceptable to be anti Islamic, therefore it can't be made "trendy"

Really though, NSBM is political shit, and black metal is mostly a non-political genre, so to suggest that anti islamic black metal is similar to NSBM is like saying that Anarchist Black Metal is related to DSBM or something.

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kingnuuuur
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:49 am 
 

Carpathianchrist wrote:
I recommend Ayat by the way.
Ayat wrote:
We never described ourselves as Anti-Islamic Black Metal. We are against the religious establishment in all its forms and Islam is just one form of it.

I'd say Ayat's statement would apply to 99% of all anti-christian / anti-religion bands.

What I'm curious to hear about are anti-islamic christian metal bands, or anti-christian muslim metal bands. Now those would be fun to check out. Any ideas of such bands?

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MetalArmy666
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:48 pm 
 

Part of the reason for my question here is that, obviously, there aren't very many white Muslims out there. Unlike Christianity, when you think of Islam you can't help but think of a certain type of person. I would relate this to Jewish culture. When you think of Jews, you think of a certain type of person.

As has been seen throughout metal's history, anytime someone makes an anti-Jewish statement, it's automatically logged as an NS thing and not just being anti their religion. My question is will the anti-Islamic metal be tagged the same way?

Let it be said that I'm not saying it should be labeled anything other than metal -- but I am curious what the general metal community (and the mainstream at large) will think about it.

I do quite like Ayat, btw. Too bad Moribund never did anything with them.

I am also aware that Janzana have been discovered to be a hoax since that article came out -- that writer clearly didn't do research at all. BUT, the article on the whole is where the discussion lies for me. Obviously, this "scene" is picking up steam and more bands are doing it so I'm curious if it will catch on or if it will be limited because some will view it as bigoted.

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:11 pm 
 

I find it has a certain appeal when people from islamic backgrounds make anti islamic music, it seems rather ballsy rejecting or even insulting your own social background in this way, more so than is the case with anti christian music in western society where it isn't much more than youth rebellion that doesn't shock anyone except when churches start burning.

White westerners doing anti islamic music? Kind of pathetic if you ask me. The claim is always that insulting islam will somehow unleash the wrath of islamist rouges who are only waiting for a reason to send everyone parcel bombs or something. That's fucking laughable, they know it won't happen and it's definitely only an excuse to practice some cultural arrogance in the relative safety of western society. They have it easy; our media constantly pictures the islamic world as backwards and filled with religious hatred. Criticizing islam isn't courageous, it's choosing the easiest target availiable without risking anything.
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Indecency
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:43 pm 
 

Wow, this thread is still alive somehow. Ok, I'll bite.

Metal is only really popular is western countries and continents (North America, Europe, Australia), and I'm using 'popular' loosely. Christianity is the dominant religion in most of these countries. That's why anti-Christian metal is already established. There are few Middle Easterners in these countries, fewer of them are in bands, fewer are in metal bands, and even fewer are anti-Islamic. That's why there is no scene. Because Islam is not big in the west and no one who's not Muslim gives enough crap about it. It will never be big because of how small metal is in the Middle East and because of how disconnected the Middle East is to the western world.

No, this is not some bullshit trends. Trends are stupid are so are people who follow them. Do what you want and stop following the next fad. As metal has spread, a few more Middle Easterners have decided to make bands and a few of those are anti Islamic. There is no 'trend' causing a surge of popularity. It's just that metal is spreading. The only 'trend' about this is the thousands of greasy pimple-faced white kids in North America and Europe who think anti Islamic metal is 'cool' and 'kvlt' and who are spreading word of it just like this thread. If we all, the people who don't really care about it, stop talking about it, then we won't have to hear it any more. We're not hearing about this stuff from the bands themselves or from the news or any other media we're hearing it from each other. This trend does not exist and is only going around because we won't stop talking about it.

Give it a rest and it will go away.

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csehszlovakze
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:59 pm 
 

Indecency wrote:
Metal is only really popular is western countries and continents (North America, Europe, Australia[...]

You just forgot about Middle and South-America (Brazil in particular) where a big fanatism for metal is going on. The rest of your comment is alright. :)
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MetalArmy666
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:02 pm 
 

Indecency wrote:
Wow, this thread is still alive somehow. Ok, I'll bite.

Metal is only really popular is western countries and continents (North America, Europe, Australia), and I'm using 'popular' loosely. Christianity is the dominant religion in most of these countries. That's why anti-Christian metal is already established. There are few Middle Easterners in these countries, fewer of them are in bands, fewer are in metal bands, and even fewer are anti-Islamic. That's why there is no scene. Because Islam is not big in the west and no one who's not Muslim gives enough crap about it. It will never be big because of how small metal is in the Middle East and because of how disconnected the Middle East is to the western world.


You must have no idea of what's going on in the world. Metal is one of the most popular genres of music throughout the globe. Almost every country has at least one notable band and some sort of scene going on there. Look at this website for instance, there is a massive group of people here from all countries who love metal. There is an archive here of bands from every country in the world. Metal is VERY widespread and not just popular in the western countries.

Also stating that Islam is not big in the west is completely incorrect. Islam is the religion with the second most people following it on the planet. It is also the fastest growing religion on the planet. In the US, it is the #3 most practiced religion and will soon be #2 behind Christianity. Muslims are not just confined to the Middle East...

Indecency wrote:
No, this is not some bullshit trends. Trends are stupid are so are people who follow them. Do what you want and stop following the next fad. As metal has spread, a few more Middle Easterners have decided to make bands and a few of those are anti Islamic. There is no 'trend' causing a surge of popularity. It's just that metal is spreading. The only 'trend' about this is the thousands of greasy pimple-faced white kids in North America and Europe who think anti Islamic metal is 'cool' and 'kvlt' and who are spreading word of it just like this thread. If we all, the people who don't really care about it, stop talking about it, then we won't have to hear it any more. We're not hearing about this stuff from the bands themselves or from the news or any other media we're hearing it from each other. This trend does not exist and is only going around because we won't stop talking about it.

Give it a rest and it will go away.


I think you are missing the point that this scene isn't just in the Middle East. One of the biggest bands in this "scene" is from your country (Canada). And actually, yes, the media is reporting on this rising trend - which is why it was posted here for discussion.

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Bolt_hole
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:12 pm 
 

Carpathianchrist wrote:
By the way...No, being anti Islamic is nothing in the slightest like being racist.


Whilst this is true, it also is not true. Discriminating against someone who e.g. has been raised by Muslims in a Muslim environment, or any other religion, and thus did not have a great choice of not being a Muslim, hating a person like this for being what they are, isn't that dissimilar to hating someone for their race or nationality.

That said, personally I do no give a flying f*ck what musicians think about anything, really, esp if they feel the need to preach their political ideas. As long as the music's good I'm happy to ignore far left/right outpourings by a bunch of angry young men :-p

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Veracs
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:26 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
I find it has a certain appeal when people from islamic backgrounds make anti islamic music, it seems rather ballsy rejecting or even insulting your own social background in this way, more so than is the case with anti christian music in western society where it isn't much more than youth rebellion that doesn't shock anyone except when churches start burning.

White westerners doing anti islamic music? Kind of pathetic if you ask me. The claim is always that insulting islam will somehow unleash the wrath of islamist rouges who are only waiting for a reason to send everyone parcel bombs or something. That's fucking laughable, they know it won't happen and it's definitely only an excuse to practice some cultural arrogance in the relative safety of western society. They have it easy; our media constantly pictures the islamic world as backwards and filled with religious hatred. Criticizing islam isn't courageous, it's choosing the easiest target availiable without risking anything.


Why would they have to do that when all they have to do is just threaten the local governments with their numbers, and effect change the ballot boxes in limiting freedoms in their host country? They've already demonstrated they can blow up entire train stations, threaten the lives of those who criticize their religion, and have Western governments cower in fear of being "politically incorrect" in bending backwards for the local Muslim immigrants. I disagree entirely people have died criticizing the "religion of peace" and people have had to flee their home countries because of threats from fundamentalist groups as well, yet its "cultural arrogance" to criticize a religion that Western states have made amenities to pacify, accomodate, which is otherwise a system of thought that's completely antithetical to even liberal democracies of Euripe.
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CorpseFister
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:45 pm 
 

MetalArmy666 wrote:
I really like Weapon and never really thought of them as anti-Islam, moreso I saw them as a satanist band. However, I'm curious how many bands are using this kind of imagery and lyrics?


It's worth noting that the vocalist and song writer in Weapon was born in Bangladesh, so any anti-Islam in his lyrics probably come from a genuine place.

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Marag
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:46 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:

Yeah, overgeneralizing much? Change that to super radical cube beard islam is the "enemy" of the west (not acutally a major danger right now actually). Though I guess the version of Islam they are following is the closest to the purest form writting in the Koran. You know, the whole spreading religion with violence thingy. But that's not the version most Islamic people follow today.

Maybe, but the western world as whole is suspicious of Islam, with the terrorists attacks and whatnot, regardless if it represents the majority or not.

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Yahko
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:50 pm 
 

NSBM - is hating on a race (Jews, Blacks, Gypsies, Indian, Asian)

Anti-Islam/Christianity/Judaism is hating on a religion, many black metal bands from the 90's are anti Christian but they do not hate on a race that isnt white.

So no, Anti Islam isnt NSBM.
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Carpathianchrist
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:12 pm 
 

Jews are not a race. They only like to pretend they are. At any time can they reject their faith and stop being a Jew. A Jew is someone who practises Judaism.


Last edited by Carpathianchrist on Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:18 pm 
 

Veracs wrote:
Why would they have to do that when all they have to do is just threaten the local governments with their numbers, and effect change the ballot boxes in limiting freedoms in their host country? They've already demonstrated they can blow up entire train stations, threaten the lives of those who criticize their religion, and have Western governments cower in fear of being "politically incorrect" in bending backwards for the local Muslim immigrants. I disagree entirely people have died criticizing the "religion of peace" and people have had to flee their home countries because of threats from fundamentalist groups as well, yet its "cultural arrogance" to criticize a religion that Western states have made amenities to pacify, accomodate, which is otherwise a system of thought that's completely antithetical to even liberal democracies of Euripe.


You know, that's exactly the kind of strawman paranoia I mean. If people vote for shitty politics because of fear of islamism it's their own goddamn fault for being that stupid. Djihadists don't actually give a shit about our democracies.

Edit: Have to admit that was kind of a weak and rather ambiguous response. I'll write more on this tomorrow if the thread isn't locked by then.
Edit2: Nope, I won't.
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Last edited by inhumanist on Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 2714
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:47 pm 
 

When people are talking about adjustments made for islamic extremists im calling bullshit.
This has not happened at all as far as i am aware. I have however seen serious talk about specifically limiting immigration from predominately islamic countries. Burqa's have been banned in France and the netherlands. Luckily the peak of the frankly retarded anti islam trend seems to have passed in the netherlands at least. Now populist parties are going back to the good olde eurocritic ramblings.

Still im afraid that with the uncertainties of the economic future in europe and the US that we will get a new extremist movement which will get in power and start getting genocidal. Just when i thought the christian west finally catched up and overtook islamic countries in treating minorities.

(minor note im saying christian west because i believe the islamic world has been a fundamental part of the western world)

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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1623
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:04 pm 
 

So France has forced Muslims to stop teaching women to be ashamed of themselves if they don't cover themselves in only the way some old sex-addict demanded they do?
Regardless, I would love to see a genuine movement in music that openly condemns Islam as well as other religions, without the subtle neo-nazism undertones, but I honestly can't think of one band that I'd comfortably describe as fitting into that category. Hell, it's rare enough that bands sing about the wonderful religion of Mohammed at all in any negative light.

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