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ScratchMyBack
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:04 am
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Location: Malaysia
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:56 am 
 

Do they deserve their own label? Every time when I see a band like Isis or Cult of Luna being described, people have always used several tags to describe them. It's a mouthful to describe them at time. To lump them all as Post Metal is even harder because bands like Meshuggah gets called Post Metal too but they surely don't remind you of Isis, Pelican, Cult of Luna, Mastodon, Baroness or Kylesa.

Those bands I mentioned later on, may have different sounds to each other but all have common ground in terms of riffing, style, aesthetics, and themes. Some may say they're just modern Sludge bands but I think they have evolved from the common Sludge tag, just as how Death has evolved out as a distinct sound compared to Thrash. When somebody recommends Sludge, they will mention bands like Eyehategod etc but they couldn't recommend bands like Isis etc despite the same tagging. They just sound too different.

So what do you guys think?
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MalignantThrone
Vanished in the Cosmic Futility

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:43 am 
 

If I ever heard someone call Meshuggah "post-metal" (i.e. a mix of post-rock and metal), I would introduce their face to a brick wall. Just sayin'.
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Guitarpro77889 wrote:
which ones are mainstream cuz i will stop listening to them

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FearAndLoathing
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:57 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:46 am 
 

ScratchMyBack wrote:
So what do you guys think?

I'm probably just lazy about tagging and stuff, but bands like Isis, Neurosis, Mastodon, Baroness, I call progressive sludge.

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henkkjelle
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:23 am 
 

Mastodon is actually no longer progressive sludge, atleast not on MA,. It's Technical/Progressive Groove Metal... I guess they changed the genre after their last album. And Neurosis is giant mix up of genre's, so Progressive Sludge Metal/Post-Hardcore/Tribal/Ambient is pretty accurate.
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MalignantThrone
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:38 am 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Mastodon is actually no longer progressive sludge, atleast not on MA,. It's Technical/Progressive Groove Metal... I guess they changed the genre after their last album.

It's been that way as long as I can remember, I think. Indeed, the Metal Archives V1 archives lists that as their genre as well and this was before The Hunter was released.
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Sokaris
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:33 am
Posts: 1095
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:18 am 
 

Beard metal?
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orionparker
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 8:55 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:21 am 
 

Sokaris wrote:
Beard metal?


Yes! I second this genre label.

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Tom Borgiron
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:07 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:25 am 
 

A lot of the "post" bands I've heard honestly didn't sound very metal to me. Lots of atmospheric sounds, but not much metal riffs.

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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:29 am 
 

And that's why it's called Post metal... And I'm pretty sure that if a band only played post metal, they wouldn't be accepted here, just look at this: http://www.metal-archives.com/search/ad ... LabelName=

No pure post metal bands here.
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Tom Borgiron
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Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:07 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:34 am 
 

Yes, but I just question the "metal" part of that label for some of those bands. Just my opinion I guess.

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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:39 am 
 

There's no need for that, though. Just because those bands have a lot of ambient, post metal bits in them, doesn't mean they aren't metal. Sure, not as metal as Manowar and bolt thrower, but the characteristics are there.
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Tom Borgiron
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:49 am 
 

With fusion genres, I think it's all about which genre they lean more towards. Like if they lean more towards the "metal" part, then they fit with metal. If they lean more towards the "post" part, then it could possibly not be metal enough. Basically the same as with genres like metalcore, it just depends on which genre they're closer to.

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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:05 am 
 

Indeed, and these bands have been judged metal enough for this site. Or they were metal enough in their early days, but evolved into a more post metal sound later.
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elf48687789
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Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:03 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:38 am 
 

Of course they have elements from other styles like progressive and doom, I'm not even sure I would consider them their own style, but one difference in a way is that many bands are instrumental or have very sparse vocals.

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MARSDUDE
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Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:17 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:34 pm 
 

You boys listened to Gigandhi yet? If not, check 'em out. They're fantastic.

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Nahsil
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:06 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:47 pm 
 

Sokaris wrote:
Beard metal?


Neckbeard metal*
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absurder21
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Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:51 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:47 pm 
 

Nahsil wrote:
Sokaris wrote:
Beard metal?


Neckbeard metal*

lmao

Post-Metal = Metal + Post-Rock

This generally comes in two forms, the sludge kind you are referring to and then Post-Black, which fuses post-rock with black metal(Altar of Plagues, Lantlos, Heretoir). There's also blackgaze, but let's not get into that. But they aren't their own genres, just sub/fusion genres of sludge and black respectively.

Also, Mastodon's work up till leviathan IS prog sludge(they changed it 2 years ago I think), MA is just completely fucking retarded on this for some reason and put them as groove. Like, you're going to tell me Baroness are still prog sludge after the Blue album, and now the even more watered down Yellow and Green, but Mastodon's work from Remisssion - Leviathan is somehow groove?(Despite Baroness's only sludge album, RED, sounding like the exact same style found on those Mastodon releases). These MA guys drive me crazy with their random, bat shit insane agenda's sometimes.

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Grimbeard
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:09 pm
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Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:49 pm 
 

Sokaris wrote:
Beard metal?


lol I love it!
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MetalHeadNorm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:28 pm 
 

It's sludge. Yeah, it's different from what we first learned as sludge (Eye Hate God style), but it still falls in the same category... It's Hardcore punk mixed with Doom metal and various other influences. That is sludge, it's just like comparing Liege Lord or Omen to Stratovarious ... sounds completely different but all three are without a doubt still power metal.
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ClaymanOnFire
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:13 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:31 pm 
 

absurder21 wrote:
Post-Metal = Metal + Post-Rock

This generally comes in two forms, the sludge kind you are referring to and then Post-Black, which fuses post-rock with black metal(Altar of Plagues, Lantlos, Heretoir). There's also blackgaze, but let's not get into that. But they aren't their own genres, just sub/fusion genres of sludge and black respectively.

Another style that comes to mind is the more Hardcore-inclined Post-metal acts, like Rosetta.

Anyway, I would like to see a new genre tag for this style of metal, but I think this ranks relatively low on the new-genre list. Djent should be renamed because it's somehow controversial, I'd like to see better distinction in Metalcore (to separate the Shadows Fall Thrashy core from the melodic As I Lay Dying core and the ultra-crappy what-am-I-even-listening-to BMTH core), and maybe a new name for mainstream Melodic Death metal, since it's vastly different from the rest of that genre.

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sortalikeadream
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:34 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:36 pm 
 

I hate the term post-metal, because it represents the polar opposite of what the "post" prefix is meant to signifiy. I've ranted about this before, and although I do like a few of the bands like Isis and Neurosis (the latter may be one of the few bands actually worthy of the tag post-metal), for the most part its nothing but an appropriation of the aesthetic trappings of post-rock, with distortion to fill in the gaps left behind, where the spirit of the originators was. Atmospheric Sludge may be more appropriate, although it implies other sludge bands lack atmosphere which is demonstrably false.
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Sanctium
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Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:16 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:04 pm 
 

What's the difference between post-metal and sludge then?

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Necroticism174
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Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:46 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:10 pm 
 

Pretentious fans.
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MetalHeadNorm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:19 pm 
 

Sanctium wrote:
What's the difference between post-metal and sludge then?


Post-metal would imply lack of sludge characteristics.
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Sanctium
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Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:16 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:28 pm 
 

MetalHeadNorm wrote:
Sanctium wrote:
What's the difference between post-metal and sludge then?


Post-metal would imply lack of sludge characteristics.


You could have just said you don't know, or better yet, neglected replying at all.

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sortalikeadream
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:34 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:30 pm 
 

The problem with post-metal as a genre tag (and, indeed, all the post-* 'genres,' I just happen to find metal's version particularly derivative) is that it would become meaningless the moment it began to signify an established sound, or even a group of sounds. it is more in line with the original meaning of "progressive," which has by now become completely imprisoned in the confines of aesthetics.

Neurosis composes songs with extremely organic structures, using a combination of doom riffs, hardcore sections, noise/ambient backgrounds or sections that add to the density of their sound, as well as various influences from folk music around the world. But they don't write 'wtf' music like Unexpect, which can more or less be easily rendered in terms of <n style>,<n+1 style>,...etc. In a Neurosis song, the disparate elements are so intricately intertwined they are no longer reducible. Perhaps the same could be said of Isis. However, I actually prefer Cult of Luna to Isis, but I don't find them nearly as adventurous in terms of exploring new textures and structures. Most CoL songs have a predictable quiet/loud structure building up to the big crescendo finish, with Pelican riffs supporting angry shouting about alienation. Keep in mind, I'm talking about a band I like. But the entire point of being "post" anything is to escape the conventions of the -thing, not to slap a pretty indie shine on them.

The difference between sludge and post metal, is post metal is what I tried to make inferrable from the above; sludge is a mix of hardcore and doom metal. There's no reason the two can't overlap.
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PhantomGreen
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:12 pm 
 

I enjoy the vast majority of the bands mentioned here. Oceanic is one of my all time favorite albums, and Neurosis my favorite band of all time. I can't say I've really put that much thought into labelling them after all these years. I'm not sure what the issue is here.
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MetalHeadNorm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:11 pm 
 

Sanctium wrote:
You could have just said you don't know, or better yet, neglected replying at all.


...That answer isn't good enough for you?

Sludge = Doom + Hardcore Punk. It's a hybrid genre that (like metalcore) can range from extremely Metal bands to bands that aren't very Metal at all.

Post-metal is a widely useless term as far as describing a band. All it indicates is that it is some type of metal fused with the post-rock style. Therefore, the difference between Post-metal and Sludge can be any number of things including that they may not even remotely resemble each other at all.

I also don't like the use of Post-metal because if you're referring to Post-rock, you have a distinctive style that originated from rock. If you're referring to Post-hardcore, you have a distinctive style that originated from Hardcore. But, if you're referring to this Post-metal you have any number of styles that have been worked into fusion styles - the naming doesn't make much sense at all in that regard.
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IanThrash
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:56 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:38 pm 
 

Sokaris wrote:
Beard metal?



you sir deserve a cookie! another vote for Bear Metal!
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CrustAsFuckExistence
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:22 am 
 

There's about as much difference between Eyehategod and Neurosis as there is between (classic) Darkthrone and Blut Aus Nord. Overarching genres still conatin a number of sub-genres/styles/etc. That, saying just "Sludge" isn't an accurate way of describing Neurosis than saying simply "Black Metal" in regards to BAN.

Also, "Beard Metal" and "Neckbeard Metal" are both glorious "genre" tags :)
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Sanctium
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:35 am 
 

Only viking, pagan, celtic etc themed bands should be beard metal

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Big_Grand
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:59 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:47 am 
 

i love the beard thing lol

with alot of these bands, while their sound may have softened, the sound is still far heavier from post-rock and the progressions are more complex. is it sludge in the sense of stuff like sleep, electric wizard, acid witch, or boris, maybe not, i think it would be more fair to move them into some kind of post progressive 'beard' doom thing

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sortalikeadream
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:34 am
Posts: 1555
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:43 am 
 

How exactly are their "progressions more complex"?
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bensabre
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:39 pm
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Location: Israel
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:54 am 
 

i call bands like black tusk, high on fire, bison bs.... modern sludge.
and i gues that makes mastodon, baroness... progressive modern sludge.

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iriki
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:02 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:03 am 
 

MalignantThrone wrote:
henkkjelle wrote:
Mastodon is actually no longer progressive sludge, atleast not on MA,. It's Technical/Progressive Groove Metal... I guess they changed the genre after their last album.

It's been that way as long as I can remember, I think. Indeed, the Metal Archives V1 archives lists that as their genre as well and this was before The Hunter was released.

This pisses me off, damn. It looks like 'hey, it's now groove metal, it has grooves in it, hehe'. Groove metal was a genre in a context in the 90's, with bands such as Pantera, Sepultura or Machine Head, with the sense of heavyness, thrash and groove. Mastodon's lastest album still have a sense of less heavyness than abrasiveness, it doesn't sound as a revival or at least influenced by those bands above. It has grooves, but it doesn't mean that sludge doesn't have. I think Prog Sludge, even Prog Stoner/Sludge is fine.

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Sanctium
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Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:16 pm
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Location: Tenenesse
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:36 pm 
 

MetalHeadNorm wrote:
Sanctium wrote:
You could have just said you don't know, or better yet, neglected replying at all.


...That answer isn't good enough for you?


Why would it be? It lacked an real information. But good job at rewording what the guy that answered me properly said.

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absurder21
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:51 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:19 pm 
 

I think the point is people are confusing what the term "post-" is supposed to imply. In a genre like post-punk, it implies a style of punk that progressed in to what is essentially the same entity, but with an internal progression that separates it from regular punk. In post-rock, I suppose it means the same things - even though the genre is more or less ambient music played using rock instrumentalism as it's basis. With post-metal, it's just a fusion of some of the instrumental aspects of post-rock, along with the atmospheric works and mixed with sludge riffing(as I mentioned before, when used with black metal it's referred to as post-black, but the idea is exactly the same) so really the post- only really implies that it is fused with POST-rock, not that it is essentially an inner-progressed genre, which we usually have names for.

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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:04 pm 
 

Sanctium wrote:
Only viking, pagan, celtic etc themed bands should be beard metal


That's why we need to call it NECKbeard metal!
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Rusted and Rotting
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:55 pm 
 

CrustAsFuckExistence wrote:
There's about as much difference between Eyehategod and Neurosis as there is between (classic) Darkthrone and Blut Aus Nord. Overarching genres still conatin a number of sub-genres/styles/etc.


Very true. Methinks overarching genre titles should be allowed "room" for growth in many directions without the need for overly-complicated or overly-descriptive additional nomenclature.
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androdion
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:59 pm 
 

absurder21 wrote:
I think the point is people are confusing what the term "post-" is supposed to imply. In a genre like post-punk, it implies a style of punk that progressed in to what is essentially the same entity, but with an internal progression that separates it from regular punk. In post-rock, I suppose it means the same things - even though the genre is more or less ambient music played using rock instrumentalism as it's basis. With post-metal, it's just a fusion of some of the instrumental aspects of post-rock, along with the atmospheric works and mixed with sludge riffing(as I mentioned before, when used with black metal it's referred to as post-black, but the idea is exactly the same) so really the post- only really implies that it is fused with POST-rock, not that it is essentially an inner-progressed genre, which we usually have names for.

You mean to tell me that these and these play the same style?

"Post" as a prefix to a genre descriptor is used to signalize something that goes beyond the conventional aspects of said genre, it doesn't mean that it's a fusion genre of any kind nor its meaning shifts at the reader's description. I wholeheartedly disagree with the term "post-metal" as well, and I make the same reasoning as MetalHeadNorm made above. "Post" = beyond, much like a new evolution of an already established genre. Now, with that in mind, why can't these bands be called "post-sludge", since the genesis of the sound comes directly from sludge acts going beyond the usual conventions of its genre? This is something that baffles me because it's really simple! People talk about post-punk, post-rock, post-black, post-whatever; but hey suddenly we can't have post-sludge, it is post-metal because it's a fusion of fusions... Strange reasoning isn't it?

As an opposition to this the term "atmospheric sludge" began to float around, and more strangely enough there are still people who think that it means something different than "post-metal", when in fact it refers to the same fusion of sludge/post-rock/noise/ambient/tribal, give or take one or more.

To somewhat answer the OP, these bands walk a thin line between several genres and there's two ways to categorize them; one, you call them by one of the two popular terms, or two, you have a gigantic genre tag like Neurosis does. Either way there's enough to nitpick this subject for years to come.
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