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DarkWolfXV
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:20 pm 
 

First, i love Cryptopsy and this is my favorite band. I fell in love with their first two albums. However, when i started exploring extreme music outside of "pure" metal (yeah, deathcore), i noticed that either Cryptopsy is THE first deathcore band (Or more accurately, proto-deathcore), or deathcore is recreated in their image. Kind of. You might think "Fuck you, who are you to put Cryptopsy and stupid shit like deathcore in the same sentence, and compare them to it?", but isn't it obvious? None So Vile is for me the album that spawned deathcore, along with Effigy of the Forgotten by Suffocation, and while the latter is totally death metal, the first is unlike to any death metal i have heard before. That might be the charm of this album, and it could reveal the sad truth that i really prefer deathcore to death metal, since Cryptopsy is like very, very riff based deathcore. If no one told me The Unspoken King is "their shittiest album because it is deathcore" i wouldn't know its deathcore, since on first listen its just like really, really dumbed down version of themselves. They have had breakdowns since NSV, and totally in deathcore way. People say its "BDM influence", but until very recently slam death/bdm had little to none deathcore breakdowns, only slams. You can compare deathcore to NSV, and even BMF era Cryptopsy. Extremely fast drumming? Check. (In deathcore the drumming pattern omits hi-hat hits and is dumbed down, which leads to the point that deathcore is simplified early Cryptopsy) If there is a solo, is it melodic? Check. 50% of riffs tremolo? Check. Broad vocal range? (In meaning of highs/mids/lows being present, instead of like some death metal bands do - one monotonous barking tone through the whole song, but of course not always) Check. Seemingly random tempo changes? Check. Also, Lord Worm started the whole pig squeal thing (Inhales in BMF and NSV, although never used as main vocal style, rather as an accent). Deathcore vocalists 95% time do not even come close to him in terms of execution, but their ideas are similar (Except the lyrics. Fuck badly written deathcore lyrics). As a side note, i have come to conclusion that if a deathcore band rips off Cryptopsy, it comes out sounding more like Cryptopsy than if a death metal band ripped them off, since deathcore bands do not miss "melodic" part in their tremolo riffs that death metal bands do. Have you ever heard band that sounds suspiciously like Cryptopsy but still is death metal at the same time? (If yes direct me there please)
Early deathcore bands like Suicide Silence and Whitechapel, especially the second, remind me of Cryptopsy. Look at The Somatic Defilement, the album is full of Cryptopsy-like melodic riffs + Suffocation Liege of Inveracity slams + deathcore breakdowns. Or The Adversary by Thy Art is Murder.

TL:DR - read the whole thing and dont throw shit at me, keep discussion civil please.

Opinions?
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xThe__Wizard
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:30 pm 
 

I kind of agree. They definitely lent a hand to the creation of the genre. If you look at Whisper Supremacy I feel Deathcore took more from that album then None So Vile since the vocal styles are more reminiscent of deathcore now.
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RapeTheDead
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:47 pm 
 

Um, yeah, a significant amount of deathcore-influenced bands like Despised Icon, Beneath the Massacre et all are from Quebec and have a highly technical approach to the music, much the same way Cryptopsy does, it's just that Cryptopsy is a huge influence on death metal in general in that region.
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DarkWolfXV
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:10 pm 
 

Yes, WS is kind of a departure into more hardcore style, but it is part early part later Cryptopsy. I think WS and ATYB were more of inspiration for technical death metal bands (or technical deathcore) than plain deathcore. Some songs on WS like Cold Hate, Warm Blood could fit on NSV, and these are rather the inspiration for deathcore (melodeath-ish riff found on most deathcore records, at least once, even seemingly breakdown oriented bands like Emmure have it)

Also both Despised Icon and Beneath The Massacre are not "deathcore-influenced", they are deathcore. I would say that BtM and DI are more of influenced by the later Cryptopsy than early (I consider everything after NSV not including NSV "later").
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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:56 pm 
 

No.
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DarkWolfXV
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:02 pm 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
No.


Care to elaborate? By the way, that is the response i actually expected :-D .
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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:31 pm 
 

Because everything. All the points you made are all vaguely true in that in round about ways techniques are similar, but the actual sounds made are completely and utterly different. There are slower groovy breaks, but none of them sound remotely like deathcore, there are tremolo riffs, but again, actually sound nothing like deathcore, there are inhales and mic cups, but again, sound nothing like deathcore. They have some techniques in common, but so do many OSDM, grind and black metal acs, and that doesn't make them related, obviously 2000s death, tech death and metalcore are more overt lineages, and the only Cryptopsy those have links to was WS and ATYB.

In short I think you're taking too large of a logical leap by narrowly focussing on a few techniques used by both and ignoring far more differences.
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SladeCraven
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:13 pm 
 

I feel that early Cryptopsy used certain things in their music (i.e. mic cupping, inhales, groove, breakdowns, etc.) to expound upon their style and give their music some flare while deathcore builds entire songs and albums off of such things. Deathcore exploits similar techniques but in a much more emphatic way.
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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:25 pm 
 

I actually noticed this a while ago, but you have systematized the thoughts I only vaguely intuited, so kudos! All the elements of future deathcore are definitely present in early cryptopsy, and it was merely a matter of tweaking the knobs to come out with the modern genre we all love and hate, love to hate, hate to love, etc.

EDIT:
SladeCraven wrote:
I feel that early Cryptopsy used certain things in their music (i.e. mic cupping, inhales, groove, breakdowns, etc.) to expound upon their style and give their music some flare while deathcore builds entire songs and albums off of such things. Deathcore exploits similar techniques but in a much more emphatic way.

Good point. They took these raw materials given to them and expounded on them til they had a whole new genre on hand.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:25 pm 
 

Sorry this really sounds like a super fan of deathcore that is trying to make deathcore somehow more relatable to the death metal scene. Esp how you relate a musical aspect of one to another, using that I could also relate pop punk bands to death metal in the very same broad strokes you are using.

And saying early deathcore bands sound like Cryptopsy to you pretty much shows me that you only later learned of cryptopsy and were introduced to death metal through a later day. I was around to hear the crop of death metal when it came out and when those early bands you are talking about were releasing demo tracks on myspace. Not one did I go... oh gee this sounds like cryptopsy and suffocation to me. No it was like hey some hardcore kids are PM in a heavier tuning, this is like moshcore beatdown bands but with a single trill picked riff instead of some two step punk riff.

So opinionwise, oh god no lol. Factwise... fuck you are totally and way off base. The only connection there is lies in you and your tastes. Thanks for trying to share them though, even with how wrong, baseless, and generally made up they are.

The following comments are a bit more graspable but it's still so broad. Saying a band took influence from another based on the fact that they are both technical is a pretty far step to jump for.
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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:42 pm 
 

I agreed with the OP from the perspective of someone who spent years as a hardcore OSDM fanatic years before deathcore was invented. So, "oh god no lol" ain't gonna fly.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:44 pm 
 

That oh god no is my opinion, the totally way off base is the fact i'm presenting. Sorry that you somehow agree with him you both grasp at straws. Also you are extremely young so why you might have been hardcore death metal for awhile, deathcore existed around the time you probably started listening to death metal as well.
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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:49 pm 
 

I'm 45 years old. I was listening to metal before you were born, undoubtedly.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:07 am 
 

Then you have no excuse.
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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:13 am 
 

I guess you are right. I'm just grasping at straws.

The idea that deathcore, which has the same constituent elements as early cryptopsy, is related to cyrptopsy is factually incorrect, but your idea that deathcore and pop punk are identical is pretty solid.

I suspect you call everyone who disagrees an insecure deathcore fan because you are yourself a Cryptopsy fan and feel uneasy about the deathcore connection to that band.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:27 am 
 

I didn't relate deathcore to pop punk. I'm saying I can take the same mindset and points that were made and do the same thing to say and I used pop punk as an example but i could've said free jazz. No matter that you can't read or comprehend what I said.

And I don't cause I do like some deathcore, and I have some of those early releases. I just don't go out of my way to relate them or make them out any more than what they really are. Sorry to upset you and shatter your perception once again. I really don't think we have anything else to talk about since it's going more into you just taking pot shots. I had my say earlier since it was asked for opinions and I shared my as civilly as possible. Oh well :roll:
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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:33 am 
 

You could go further and say that both things exist in the universe, therefor they are the same, using this logic that you've made up for the purposes of saying so. I'm pointing out that deathcore is clearly so similar to cryptopsy and having arisen from the same general field of interests that they are likely connected. This is confirmed further by there being a crossover between deathcore and cryptopsy (they hired a deathcore singer, indicating that a guy in a deathcore band was interested in cryptopsy and cryptospy was interested in deathcore). You have to make semantic arguments that anything can be described as being the same by using the right language, whereas I point out objective facts about the similarities and connections between deathcore and cryptopsy that even your paper thin visage of deathcore worldliness can't disguise you are trying to sweep under the rug. Why? Since you like deathcore, who could say?

We can wrap this up, tho. I have the truth, and you have your smug smilie. Everyone is satisfied.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:39 am 
 

You haven't presented me with anything but a bunch of rage so therefore I can't continue to attempting to discuss anything with you. So that's all. No need to get so upset, perhaps a mute is now in order. g-day clueless sir.
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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:51 am 
 

Surrender accepted.
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xThe__Wizard
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:23 am 
 

Well I think the title is wrong. Like I said, if you look at Whisper Supremacy (have not listened to ATYB) and add more hardcore influences you would get a really death metal inspired deathcore album. However like all genres eventually it eventually breaks away from the genre it came from. I mean if you look at Metallica and then look at Deicide, shit is really different even though death metal came from thrash but you can still trace the roots.
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Pfuntner
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:41 am 
 

Having been friends with a lot of guys right at the start of deathcore's rise in the hardcore scene, I can definitely say that a lot of those dudes were listening to Cryptopsy, along with the more well documented bands like Suffocation and Cannibal Corpse. I'd imagine that other Quebec acts were probably very tuned into what Cryptopsy were doing, both their early work, and their slightly more hardcore material with DiSalvo. Even if the elements used in both Cryptopsy and deathcore are used to drastically different ends, I wouldn't be surprised if albums likes None So Vile were where the deathcore bands were first learning those skills.
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Nochielo
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:19 am 
 

I believe I once read that Mournier was claiming that Cryptopsy was the first deathcore band. This was all during the band's one night stand with deathcore.
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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:24 am 
 

Because he couldn't tell the difference between a deathcore breakdown and a death metal chug, and because he was extremely emotionally fragile and defensive.
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Veracs
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:58 am 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iLmF_2q7KA

I can see the argument the band were an influence on the music, bands from The Faceless to Arsonists get all the girls openly credit them as an influence and that song has quite a few riffs that aren't totally dissimilar from breakdowns. None So vile has lots of riffs that would eventually be patented by bands like Beneath the Massacre and Despised Icon as spastic breakdown parts, along with Suffocation I'd think the two are the largest of the death metal influences on the music.
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somefella
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:07 am 
 

Influence, yes. Proto-deathcore, not at all.
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Nochielo
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:12 am 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
Because he couldn't tell the difference between a deathcore breakdown and a death metal chug, and because he was extremely emotionally fragile and defensive.

Fair point. For the record, I wasn't saying I agreed with Mournier though, just thought it was worth a mention.
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ThePoop
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:29 am 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
... I could also relate pop punk bands to death metal in the very same broad strokes you are using.

I'd like to see that.
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Chainsaw Omega
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:56 am 
 

I haven't really thought of this before, since I don't listen to deathcore of my own volition ever, but I see what you are saying. The way to think of Crpytopsy's influence of deathcore is closer to the relation of a band like Accept to thrash metal. Were Accept thrash? Fuck no, but they were massively influential on the genre. Another one would be Sodom's influence on the black metal scene. In the Sign of Evil is in no way black metal, but one can see how a band like Mayhem or Carpathian Forest drew inspiration from them.

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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:08 am 
 

Cryptopsy had a hand in deathcore only by virtue of being a massive influence in the more extreme death metal acts in general. Also agree with SLK that the OP looks like a ham-fisted attempt to validate deathcore. It might not actually be that, but that's what it looks like to me.
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Veracs
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:13 am 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
Cryptopsy had a hand in deathcore only by virtue of being a massive influence in the more extreme death metal acts in general. Also agree with SLK that the OP looks like a ham-fisted attempt to validate deathcore. It might not actually be that, but that's what it looks like to me.


It might be that he doesn't know what he's talking about?
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:23 am 
 

The OP knows what he's talking about. The problem is that he seems to take minor details way out of proportion to fit his argument.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:44 am 
 

ThePoop wrote:
ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
... I could also relate pop punk bands to death metal in the very same broad strokes you are using.

I'd like to see that.



2 step tempos are used by both, both have breaks that come down to just the bass introing a new riff, both have sudden stops and starts in tempo, both utilize distorted guitars, both usually have to have really tight and fast drummers....


it's not that hard. When you use such sweeping and broad basis for your comparison everything's possible.
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:15 am 
 

Then Suffo is equally guilty of this, just like Devourment.
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Evil_Obsidian
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:29 pm 
 

That's the reason I never got into Cryptopsy, Dying Fetus, Pyrexia et al. Their style of Death Metal was watered down with something I couldn't quite put my finger on at the time. Almost 20 years later - it has a name: deathcore.

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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:44 pm 
 

:durr:
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MutantClannfear
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:46 pm 
 

Yeah, gonna have to order a second helping of :durr: for me. Not going to speak for Cryptopsy or Pyrexia, but DF use hardcore influence in their death metal. This is not the same thing as what the modern usage of deathcore has come to mean.

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Zero_Nowhere
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:06 am 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
Yeah, gonna have to order a second helping of :durr: for me. Not going to speak for Cryptopsy or Pyrexia, but DF use hardcore influence in their death metal. This is not the same thing as what the modern usage of deathcore has come to mean.


Pyrexia carries a lot of hardcore influence - even moreso than Dying Fetus. The debut is pure Suffocation worship but everything after that point is about 50/50 DM and NYHC. If someone isn't very familiar with modern hardcore that crossbreed will look a lot like deathcore influence (Internal Bleeding catches flack for a lot of the same reasons).

Cryptopsy, less so. There's definitely a bit present on the DiSalvo albums (though again, its a different breed - the 'hardcore' bits tend to be reminiscent of spazzy mathcore stuff with a bit of NYHC) but NSV kinda gets its deathcore assocations for the same reason Suffocation do - the tech side of things got borrowed by deathcore bands and paired with a different set of hardcore influences, rather than them bearing a whole lot of similarities with the hardcore side of deathcores parentage.

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pastafarian
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:27 am 
 

Evil_Obsidian wrote:
That's the reason I never got into Cryptopsy, Dying Fetus, Pyrexia et al. Their style of Death Metal was watered down with something I couldn't quite put my finger on at the time. Almost 20 years later - it has a name: deathcore.

cryptopsy watered down? Have you ever heard none so vile?

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DarkWolfXV
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:58 am 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
Sorry this really sounds like a super fan of deathcore that is trying to make deathcore somehow more relatable to the death metal scene. Esp how you relate a musical aspect of one to another, using that I could also relate pop punk bands to death metal in the very same broad strokes you are using.


Why do you think it does? Will my post like, change the world and make deathcore metal from this moment? No? Ok. I like both death metal and deathcore, and just wanted to see the opinions of this forum on the subject and spark a discussion, not make deathcore more relevant (Like that would work and is my ultimate goal.)

Evil_Obsidian wrote:
That's the reason I never got into Cryptopsy, Dying Fetus, Pyrexia et al. Their style of Death Metal was watered down with something I couldn't quite put my finger on at the time. Almost 20 years later - it has a name: deathcore.


:nono:
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:18 am 
 

Evil_Obsidian wrote:
That's the reason I never got into Cryptopsy, Dying Fetus, Pyrexia et al. Their style of Death Metal was watered down with something I couldn't quite put my finger on at the time. Almost 20 years later - it has a name: deathcore.

What, precisely, is watered down in None So Vile?
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