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ute
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:36 am
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:53 am 
 

Hello,

I was born in 90's and miss a lot of history.
If anyone has experienced mid or late 80's thrash metal/crossover thrash scene could share your thoughts on early groove metal developments and later stories. (like alternative metal, nu metal, metalcore, etc.)
Thanks for you sharing!

Here's a template you could follow or append optionally :)
==============================
Year you start to listen to thrash:
Your favorite bands:
how do you think on groove metal?

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chaossphere
Metal Lunatic

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:49 pm
Posts: 3244
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:29 am 
 

This is your brain on metal:

Spoiler: show
Image


This is your brain on groove metal:

Spoiler: show
Image
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Last edited by Diamhea on Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler those m8

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fourrobert13
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:31 pm
Posts: 73
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:38 pm 
 

ute wrote:
Hello,

I was born in 90's and miss a lot of history.
If anyone has experienced mid or late 80's thrash metal/crossover thrash scene could share your thoughts on early groove metal developments and later stories. (like alternative metal, nu metal, metalcore, etc.)
Thanks for you sharing!

Here's a template you could follow or append optionally :)
==============================
Year you start to listen to thrash:
Your favorite bands:
how do you think on groove metal?

You might want to read a book on this subject or watch some documentaries because you are asking for a lot of info/history. If you want 1980's thrash, start with the big 4. Groove, start with Pantera. The whole 1990's was alternative and I was never was a fan of nu-metal or mallcore (other than a couple bands). Youtube has tons of metal history videos you should check out.

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Indecency
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:15 pm
Posts: 714
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:04 pm 
 

I think it's the unwanted bastard of thrash. I don't like most of the groove bands out there. In fact, the only ones I like are the ones that still keep it fast and very thrashy. The ones that ditch most of the thrash influence are not my fancy.

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Turner
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
Posts: 1332
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:32 am 
 

i've always wondered how someone can listen to, say, machine head's burn my eyes and not hear an objectively fucking AMAZING album. it runs rings around 99% of the thrash i've heard - not that thrash doesn't have its absolute classics (eternal nightmare ffs!), but groove adds that extra dimension when they slow down and add that kinda hardcore/"street" edge. i know a lot of metalheads see that "street edge" as anathema to metal (all deep-seeded racism, naturally), but it's as much a part of metal as denim and leather imo.

here are some examples of GREAT groove metal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mWPPBW4DU8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwrE23EQCdQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n-XnSoAneU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV8QgnD-Y9I (from what may well be the greatest album of all time)

just listen to the broad scope those songs have. it irks me that people dismiss the entire subgenre as worthless when there's talent and songwriting of that calibre to be had. and shit, there's so much more i could post - stuff by prong, fear factory, post-practice what you preach testament, pantera, slayer's divine intervention album, etc etc. a lot of the hate for groove metal comes not from any rational viewpoint, but rather the fact that so many prominent thrash bands (sepultura, testament, overkill, slayer, just to name the top-level bands) jumped thrash's sinking ship in favour of groove.

and just because i know it annoys the priest purists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5cwiwzuzDo
(actually not a bad track, if a bit pedestrian and contrived)

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mjollnir
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:14 pm
Posts: 1307
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:49 am 
 

I am pushing 50 so I saw the 90s and saw thrash's bastard and unwanted cousin groove metal appear on the scene. Now a lot of the thrash bands that helped define the genre went in a full on groove metal direction and, for the most part, it turned me off completely. There were some bands that appeared in the 90s that had some groove in their sound like Nevermore or Morgana Lefay...and they pulled it off flawlessly with crunchy groove riffs but with a more traditional/power metal sound. When I first heard Machine Head, Fear Factory, Post Cowboys Pantera, and post Arise Sepultura I thought it was vapid shit that had more in common with mallcore than metal. So, no, not a big fan of groove metal
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chaossphere
Metal Lunatic

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:49 pm
Posts: 3244
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:56 am 
 

Burn My Eyes is just straight up midpaced thrash to my ears, with a bit of a hardcore vibe. Same goes for Biohazard, post-Arise Sepultura, 90s etc. That's not groove metal, it's just hardcore-tinged thrash with a bit of extra swagger. Divine Intervention is just Slayer, thrashing it up like they usually do. In fact, none of those examples fit the bill, especially not Testament. Thrash with a bit of extra weight doesn't automatically equal groove metal :P

Groove metal to my mind is all those Pantera-wannabe bands, heavier nu-metal shit like Mudvayne, and half-assed Meshuggah ripoffs. Boring ass shit like Lost Souls, Face Down, and any other number of bands no one remembers. Annoying "funky" bass and cheesy "DJ" noises don't help either.
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Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
Posts: 4725
Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:07 am 
 

"Davidian" is fucking killer. I think that a lot of this just comes from the new generation of metal kiddies brought up near-universally on Metalsucks articles, YouTube, and to be honest, some of the older reviewers on the site here like Ultraboris blindly hated on stuff just because it "grooves" and people have seemed to latch onto that quasi-elitist mindset as a way to mitigate having very little tangible knowledge of heavy music on the whole. Working the review queue I see it almost everyday, you see what I call "Borisisms" slipping through all of the time with some of these younger kids, you can tell their opinions were formulated by perusing some of the reviews here and attaching to what they assume is the popular and "right" opinion. I'm sure Zodijackyl agrees with me concerning some of these newer users, whether or not our tastes run parallel to each other (which they don't).

I'm a thrash fan, and I enjoy tons of groove metal. Be it modern djenty stuff like Sybreed and Mechina or thrash/groove hybrids like Forbidden's Green, Overkill's The Killing Kind, and Exhorder's The Law. Those are good albums, irrespective of preconceptions.
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MonumentalBlackArt
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:04 am
Posts: 700
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:14 am 
 

Be careful not to dismiss peoples' opinions as them blindly following trends. If you hate groove metal it makes sense to dislike something that '"grooves." There are certainly reviews on here where you see people blindly echoing something Wikipedia said, but there are also plenty of people who are expressing an actual opinion formed by a working brain.

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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2497
Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:34 am 
 

chaossphere wrote:
This is your brain on metal:

Spoiler: show
Image


This is your brain on groove metal:

Spoiler: show
Image

I'm pretty sure you could make your point better, considering this comparison is a little like saying that metal is a human body and groove metal is an eyebrow hair [Analogy not to scale].
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chaossphere
Metal Lunatic

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:49 pm
Posts: 3244
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:01 am 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
I'm pretty sure you could make your point better, considering this comparison is a little like saying that metal is a human body and groove metal is an eyebrow hair [Analogy not to scale].


I was looking at it from a metaphysical perspective. It's more like "metal at its best gives you insight into the secrets of the universe" vs "groove metal is pretty much angry guys talking about how tough they are and how much they want to kick your ass, so it makes you stupid". Because groove metal does borrow a lot of traits from tough-guy hardcore. That said, the comparison was purely intended as highly exaggerated satire.
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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
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Location: At the bottom of the lake
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:17 am 
 

chaossphere wrote:
"metal at its best gives you insight into the secrets of the universe"

Higgs Boson, Mitochondrion, Fenriz' Red Planet [European Tour, 2015]
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chaossphere
Metal Lunatic

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:49 pm
Posts: 3244
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:38 am 
 

Let's not forget The Stephen Hawking Band.
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Indecency
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:15 pm
Posts: 714
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:20 pm 
 

Diamhea wrote:
I think that a lot of this just comes from the new generation of metal kiddies brought up near-universally on Metalsucks articles, YouTube, and to be honest, some of the older reviewers on the site here like Ultraboris blindly hated on stuff just because it "grooves" and people have seemed to latch onto that quasi-elitist mindset as a way to mitigate having very little tangible knowledge of heavy music on the whole.


That is an incredibly unwarranted and unreasonable assumption. All those bands (Pantera, Slipknot, whoever else) are quite popular and generate a lot of fans which is contradictory to it being hated. The people who usually hate it do so because they listen to more complex stuff. Groove is often one of the intros to metal so by the time someone hears it, they're probably somewhat to metal and don't yet have any elitist mindset. I hated groove back when I was listening to metalcore and post hardcore so there is no chance of elitism there. Sometimes people just want to listen to melody.

Having said that, it sounds like you're picking nu-groove bands when there's many others. If you start naming others in different scenes not part of the big nu-groove scene, but smaller and less popular ones, then all of a sudden it doesn't sound so much more like elitism anymore. Elitists and hipsters tend not to hate on stuff that's not popular.

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Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
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Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:07 pm 
 

Indecency wrote:
That is an incredibly unwarranted and unreasonable assumption.


It would be, if I was making a broad, all-encompassing deduction based on conjecture, which I wasn't. I opened with "I think that a lot of this just comes from..." A lot =/= everyone. There are tons of people parroting second-hand opinions without giving the style a chance, but this happens all of the time among virtually all musical mediums. It is just unreasonably accentuated with groove metal, which is of course the reason we are even having this conversation. If you have a valid reason to dislike it and made up your own mind, glad to hear it. Sadly, many people don't have the patience to formulate their own opinions and would rather write it off and pop into threads like this firing off empty harangues.

I dunno, I'm not trying to be an advocate or anything, but I've just seen so much of this repeat over the years that.... damn I'm starting to feel old!
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Indecency
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:15 pm
Posts: 714
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:24 pm 
 

I don't know, I guess my argument would just be than that the distaste is accentuated with groove because it's popular, just like metalcore.

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KosherCosby
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:58 pm
Posts: 6
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:52 pm 
 

I don't like it much with the odd exception. The Exhorder album isn't bad for example, if that counts as groove metal.

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chaossphere
Metal Lunatic

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:49 pm
Posts: 3244
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:22 pm 
 

It's not even really a sub-genre in its own right anyway, more like a convenient umbrella for any band that plays thrash with hardcore influences or slower than usual drumming. It's a nebulous term at best, as the vast difference in opinion between what Turner considers groove metal and my own definition.. I could just be a smart cunt again and say the only true definition of "groove metal" is any form of metal being played on vinyl :P
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TheExodusAttack
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 4:16 am
Posts: 1770
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:31 pm 
 

We should bring back the term "power groove"
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chaossphere
Metal Lunatic

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:49 pm
Posts: 3244
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:29 pm 
 

TheExodusAttack wrote:
We should bring back the term "power groove"


That's Pantera's trademark. Works for them, and them alone.

I suppose I don't like implementing the term too much because it brings to mind hippies and disco crap. I'd rather just call the good stuff "badass 90s-style thrash" and the other crap can get lumped in with mallcore.
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Indecency
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:15 pm
Posts: 714
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:18 pm 
 

chaossphere wrote:
It's not even really a sub-genre in its own right anyway, more like a convenient umbrella for any band that plays thrash with hardcore influences or slower than usual drumming. It's a nebulous term at best, as the vast difference in opinion between what Turner considers groove metal and my own definition.. I could just be a smart cunt again and say the only true definition of "groove metal" is any form of metal being played on vinyl :P


That's true but there still lies the fact that there are other types of groove not part of the original thrash groove (such as groove metalcore in the vein of Lamb of God, and various other groovecores, like half the Djent scene or a few of the newer post hardcore bands out there). It's not really its own genre but it is its own influence and its own umbrella.

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Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
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Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:41 pm 
 

Indecency wrote:
It's not really its own genre but it is its own influence and its own umbrella.


That's definitely a good point; certainly more of an ephemeral encapsulation rather than a clear-cut riffing style ala percussive/repeated (speed/thrash) or the swampy morass of death metal. As a lone genre, it doesn't really stand "on its own" quite as convincingly, so to speak.
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chugging_pus
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:59 pm
Posts: 95
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:43 pm 
 

you're asking about the roots of groove metal? i'll free form my take on it, may be mistakes cause i'm at work....

You had bands like St. Vitus and Trouble doing the retro 70's stuff, influencing bands like Carnivore. Pete Steele was way into Angel Witch, Vitus, Sabbath which was a huge part of Carnivore's sound. Carnivore also had influences from local NY bands like Sheer Terror (who were heavily influenced by the grooves of Celtic Frost) and the Cro-Mags, etc. Thier buddies S.O.D. and Anthrax also had these "mosh parts" which started teaching the crossover scene to slow down a little bit.

You also had the Crumbsuckers who were another great crossover band that fizzled out and eventually members start the band Pro-Pain. Pro-Pain's sound to me straddled the line between Pantera and Biohazard and were garbage, but had an impact on many metal heads when they toured with Overkill in the early/mid 90's.

You also had Corrosion Of Conformity who began as a hardcore band influence by the DC band Void. The band later began to embrace more influences from Black Sabbath and later Black Flag, which caused them to utilize more groove in their previously thrash and go sound.

Carnivore influences Kirk Windstein who began adding this influence into a band he was in called Shell Shock. Shell Shock broke up, he brielfy worked with Exhorder, then formed the Slugs/Crowbar. I think Kirk Windstein's musical influence and ideas were a huge influence on Pantera's change in sound from sleazy "power metal" to "tough as nails" aggro metal.

Die Kreuzen began as a hardcore/punk band with original discordant riffing that influenced metal bands such as Voivoid and Beyond Possession. Die Kreuzen's biggest followers were Soundgarden. When Die Kreuzen put out their second LP "October File" they lost their thrash roots and began to play even more experimentally. They were a huge influence on Soundgarden.

Soundgarden were a huge influence on bands like Helmet and Clutch (who have a rabid cult following today). Helmet winds a Grammy in 1991 for the song "Unsung," and soon after every metal band with a record deal is adding thier influences into their sound (Sepultura, Napalm Death).

By '93 or so Machine Head and Crowbar put out their debuts, and the roots of groove metal are becoming very solidified. Just a year away from shit like Korn, Deftones, and other garbage aimed at 12 year olds.

Also don't forget the horrible funk metal movement of the late 80's. Faith No More (never cared for them), Infectious Grooves, Chili Peppers, and more. Eventually giving birth to Rage Against The Machine who added more hardcore influences to the sound.

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TrooperEd
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:18 pm
Posts: 267
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:11 pm 
 

Nu-metal being a direct spawn of groove metal will forever be the albatross around the latter's neck.

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ModusOperandi
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 12:52 am
Posts: 666
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:53 am 
 

It's a separate genre, with both great and terrible bands.

Look, thrash died the way it did back then in part because of the fourth and fifth-level bands saturating the style. Mezzrow's sole album is not some undiscovered or neglected gem, it's pedestrian as hell and there were hundreds more like it at its time. Pantera, Machine Head, Fear Factory, etc. were still going to break through and find an audience.
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MonumentalBlackArt
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:04 am
Posts: 700
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:00 am 
 

TrooperEd wrote:
Nu-metal being a direct spawn of groove metal will forever be the albatross around the latter's neck.

You say that like groove metal doesn't suck on its own.

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ute
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:36 am
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:17 am 
 

fourrobert13 wrote:
You might want to read a book on this subject or watch some documentaries because you are asking for a lot of info/history. If you want 1980's thrash, start with the big 4. Groove, start with Pantera. The whole 1990's was alternative and I was never was a fan of nu-metal or mallcore (other than a couple bands). Youtube has tons of metal history videos you should check out.

Thanks for your reply.
I've known some of stories but not sure what do a guy really experienced a flourishing thrash metal scene think? They saw groove metal later dominated the market.
I guess thrash fans may kind of hate groove metal.

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ute
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:36 am
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:31 am 
 

Indecency wrote:
I think it's the unwanted bastard of thrash. I don't like most of the groove bands out there. In fact, the only ones I like are the ones that still keep it fast and very thrashy. The ones that ditch most of the thrash influence are not my fancy.

Thanks for your reply! You might be the guy what I want to prove my thoughts!

Any other groove metal band you could accept? Like Pantera's "Cowboy From Hell", Overdose. Exhorder or early Ktulu?

By the way, as you like fast and thrashy, do you dig into thrashcore stuff? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvE75TW7jQo

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ute
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:36 am
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:49 am 
 

Turner wrote:
i've always wondered how someone can listen to, say, machine head's burn my eyes and not hear an objectively fucking AMAZING album. it runs rings around 99% of the thrash i've heard - not that thrash doesn't have its absolute classics (eternal nightmare ffs!), but groove adds that extra dimension when they slow down and add that kinda hardcore/"street" edge. i know a lot of metalheads see that "street edge" as anathema to metal (all deep-seeded racism, naturally), but it's as much a part of metal as denim and leather imo.

here are some examples of GREAT groove metal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mWPPBW4DU8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwrE23EQCdQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n-XnSoAneU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV8QgnD-Y9I (from what may well be the greatest album of all time)

just listen to the broad scope those songs have. it irks me that people dismiss the entire subgenre as worthless when there's talent and songwriting of that calibre to be had. and shit, there's so much more i could post - stuff by prong, fear factory, post-practice what you preach testament, pantera, slayer's divine intervention album, etc etc. a lot of the hate for groove metal comes not from any rational viewpoint, but rather the fact that so many prominent thrash bands (sepultura, testament, overkill, slayer, just to name the top-level bands) jumped thrash's sinking ship in favour of groove.

and just because i know it annoys the priest purists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5cwiwzuzDo
(actually not a bad track, if a bit pedestrian and contrived)

Cool man! I'm really enjoy Sepultura, too.
I'm curious about "street edge" saying since in early year, crossover thrash and thrash metal affected each other. I'm not sure why thrash metal thrash, but some of 80's new york hardcore bands were called thrash in their year.
Thanks for your sharing. Learn a lot from it.

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ute
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:36 am
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:57 am 
 

mjollnir wrote:
I am pushing 50 so I saw the 90s and saw thrash's bastard and unwanted cousin groove metal appear on the scene. Now a lot of the thrash bands that helped define the genre went in a full on groove metal direction and, for the most part, it turned me off completely. There were some bands that appeared in the 90s that had some groove in their sound like Nevermore or Morgana Lefay...and they pulled it off flawlessly with crunchy groove riffs but with a more traditional/power metal sound. When I first heard Machine Head, Fear Factory, Post Cowboys Pantera, and post Arise Sepultura I thought it was vapid shit that had more in common with mallcore than metal. So, no, not a big fan of groove metal

Thanks a lot!
Truly, it's the same in essentials in what happening in my scene.
I'm born in 90's and experience a so called "post-hardcore/metalcore" age. Some of guys just can move to listen to new stuff.

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ute
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:36 am
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:12 am 
 

chaossphere wrote:
Burn My Eyes is just straight up midpaced thrash to my ears, with a bit of a hardcore vibe. Same goes for Biohazard, post-Arise Sepultura, 90s etc. That's not groove metal, it's just hardcore-tinged thrash with a bit of extra swagger. Divine Intervention is just Slayer, thrashing it up like they usually do. In fact, none of those examples fit the bill, especially not Testament. Thrash with a bit of extra weight doesn't automatically equal groove metal :P

Groove metal to my mind is all those Pantera-wannabe bands, heavier nu-metal shit like Mudvayne, and half-assed Meshuggah ripoffs. Boring ass shit like Lost Souls, Face Down, and any other number of bands no one remembers. Annoying "funky" bass and cheesy "DJ" noises don't help either.

I got what you think! I also take the word groove metal is kind of derogatory but some so called "groove metal" in early year are truly creative to me.

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ute
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:36 am
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:23 am 
 

Diamhea wrote:
"Davidian" is fucking killer. I think that a lot of this just comes from the new generation of metal kiddies brought up near-universally on Metalsucks articles, YouTube, and to be honest, some of the older reviewers on the site here like Ultraboris blindly hated on stuff just because it "grooves" and people have seemed to latch onto that quasi-elitist mindset as a way to mitigate having very little tangible knowledge of heavy music on the whole. Working the review queue I see it almost everyday, you see what I call "Borisisms" slipping through all of the time with some of these younger kids, you can tell their opinions were formulated by perusing some of the reviews here and attaching to what they assume is the popular and "right" opinion. I'm sure Zodijackyl agrees with me concerning some of these newer users, whether or not our tastes run parallel to each other (which they don't).

I'm a thrash fan, and I enjoy tons of groove metal. Be it modern djenty stuff like Sybreed and Mechina or thrash/groove hybrids like Forbidden's Green, Overkill's The Killing Kind, and Exhorder's The Law. Those are good albums, irrespective of preconceptions.

You're pretty broad-minded! People often take their tastes as a "right" view toward music and some follow mainstream thoughts.
I'm doing some researches on every age of rock/metal music and the phenomenon is quite common.

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ute
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:36 am
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:35 am 
 

Indecency wrote:
I don't know, I guess my argument would just be than that the distaste is accentuated with groove because it's popular, just like metalcore.

But thrash metal was once popular before :)

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ute
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:36 am
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:48 am 
 

chaossphere wrote:
It's not even really a sub-genre in its own right anyway, more like a convenient umbrella for any band that plays thrash with hardcore influences or slower than usual drumming. It's a nebulous term at best, as the vast difference in opinion between what Turner considers groove metal and my own definition.. I could just be a smart cunt again and say the only true definition of "groove metal" is any form of metal being played on vinyl :P

Thanks for your reply.
Your definition might part of true but I am a little bit doubt on "hardcore influences".
The groovy sound were formerly appeared in hardcore while it was more hardcore-driven groove like Bad Brains, Agnostic Front or Suicidal Tendencies, etc. Back then age, New York hardcore/crossover thrash and thrash were quite close then. Hence, I believe the slowdown thrashy riff might occasionally appear in some prominent thrash metal bands. As I see Pantera's influences was much from NWOBHM/some thrash metal bands rather than hardcore and groove metal bands after mid-90's got ideas from Pantera instead of hardcore.
That is, I think what most groove metal bands get is metal groove not hardcore groove. OK, I speak like a book... Just my opinion.

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fourrobert13
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:31 pm
Posts: 73
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:06 am 
 

Quote:
Thanks for your reply.
I've known some of stories but not sure what do a guy really experienced a flourishing thrash metal scene think? They saw groove metal later dominated the market.
I guess thrash fans may kind of hate groove metal.

I don't hate groove metal, but I only listen to a few groove metal bands like Pantera, Channel Zero, Machine Head, and a couple others. I'm not sure it dominated the market because at the time when Pantera was making It popular, the 1990's brought us Nirvana and Pearl Jam which were beginning to take over radio and Mtv. Nu-metal just blows IMO and came about the same time, but didn't get popular till the late 1990's early 2000's. It's a lot of info to cover in a post if you know what I mean.

start here
Youtube: show

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ute
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:36 am
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:10 am 
 

chugging_pus wrote:
you're asking about the roots of groove metal? i'll free form my take on it, may be mistakes cause i'm at work....

You had bands like St. Vitus and Trouble doing the retro 70's stuff, influencing bands like Carnivore. Pete Steele was way into Angel Witch, Vitus, Sabbath which was a huge part of Carnivore's sound. Carnivore also had influences from local NY bands like Sheer Terror (who were heavily influenced by the grooves of Celtic Frost) and the Cro-Mags, etc. Thier buddies S.O.D. and Anthrax also had these "mosh parts" which started teaching the crossover scene to slow down a little bit.

You also had the Crumbsuckers who were another great crossover band that fizzled out and eventually members start the band Pro-Pain. Pro-Pain's sound to me straddled the line between Pantera and Biohazard and were garbage, but had an impact on many metal heads when they toured with Overkill in the early/mid 90's.

You also had Corrosion Of Conformity who began as a hardcore band influence by the DC band Void. The band later began to embrace more influences from Black Sabbath and later Black Flag, which caused them to utilize more groove in their previously thrash and go sound.

Carnivore influences Kirk Windstein who began adding this influence into a band he was in called Shell Shock. Shell Shock broke up, he brielfy worked with Exhorder, then formed the Slugs/Crowbar. I think Kirk Windstein's musical influence and ideas were a huge influence on Pantera's change in sound from sleazy "power metal" to "tough as nails" aggro metal.

Die Kreuzen began as a hardcore/punk band with original discordant riffing that influenced metal bands such as Voivoid and Beyond Possession. Die Kreuzen's biggest followers were Soundgarden. When Die Kreuzen put out their second LP "October File" they lost their thrash roots and began to play even more experimentally. They were a huge influence on Soundgarden.

Soundgarden were a huge influence on bands like Helmet and Clutch (who have a rabid cult following today). Helmet winds a Grammy in 1991 for the song "Unsung," and soon after every metal band with a record deal is adding thier influences into their sound (Sepultura, Napalm Death).

By '93 or so Machine Head and Crowbar put out their debuts, and the roots of groove metal are becoming very solidified. Just a year away from shit like Korn, Deftones, and other garbage aimed at 12 year olds.

Also don't forget the horrible funk metal movement of the late 80's. Faith No More (never cared for them), Infectious Grooves, Chili Peppers, and more. Eventually giving birth to Rage Against The Machine who added more hardcore influences to the sound.


Thanks a lot for your amazing reply!
I'm just curious about what a 80's thrash metal fans think but you really help me a lot.
I'm familiar with hardcore punk instead of metal. Never consider doom element in this topic.
Indeed a nice reference!
May I ask you how do you find these facts or any book/documentary you could recommend?

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ute
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:36 am
Posts: 15
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:36 am 
 

fourrobert13 wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for your reply.
I've known some of stories but not sure what do a guy really experienced a flourishing thrash metal scene think? They saw groove metal later dominated the market.
I guess thrash fans may kind of hate groove metal.

I don't hate groove metal, but I only listen to a few groove metal bands like Pantera, Channel Zero, Machine Head, and a couple others. I'm not sure it dominated the market because at the time when Pantera was making It popular, the 1990's brought us Nirvana and Pearl Jam which were beginning to take over radio and Mtv. Nu-metal just blows IMO and came about the same time, but didn't get popular till the late 1990's early 2000's. It's a lot of info to cover in a post if you know what I mean.

start here
Youtube: show


Yeah. It's a long story. The articles online, books and documentary might not really describe the whole picture. From a man who really experienced that age can bring the another view point I can't learn from.
May I ask you when did you start to listen to metal music and what scene did you start from?

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Lagartija
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:27 am
Posts: 500
Location: Spain
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:11 am 
 

I have a very strong loathing for Machine Head and refuse to listen to 'The Blackening' on principle. They started out groove when groove was in, went nu-metal when nu-metal was in, turned thrash when thrash came back, and then are doing whatever the fuck they are doing now.
I don't care that Rob Flyn played in Vio-lence, Machine Head are trendy bandwagon-jumpers.
I have more respect for Pantera, but don't like them either.
Just personal opinions :)

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Yayattasa
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 am
Posts: 671
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:09 pm 
 

If you would call this groove metal...

Youtube: show


Then it rules.
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inhumanist wrote:
Arkhane wrote:
Damn, I thought this thread was headed for closure. Good save, whoever saved it but I'm too lazy to scroll up right now.

oh my god people disagreed on something for several pages stop the presses

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mjollnir
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:14 pm
Posts: 1307
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:18 pm 
 

Yayattasa wrote:
If you would call this groove metal...

Youtube: show


Then it rules.


I has a few moments...but it's mostly painful to listen to.
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