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Yggdrasil1992
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:52 pm
Posts: 2
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:24 am 
 

Hails! I have been getting more and more into Black Metal and blackened Thrash as of late and I have a question. I understand that Norway is generally known for a more raw and gross sound, Sweden is generally more Melodic. What is Finland known for sound wise in Black Metal? I of course know that these "rules" are not always the case with every black metal band from these countries.

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revoltingblob
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:06 pm
Posts: 177
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:46 am 
 

I'd say Finland, rather than Norway, is known for "a more raw and gross sound"

Norway is the middle ground between the more raw Finnish and more melodic Swedish variations of the genre

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chaossphere
Metal Lunatic

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:49 pm
Posts: 2677
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:13 am 
 

Well obviously Finnish black metal can get quite vicious, with bands like Clandestine Blaze and Sargeist being generally even more raw/punky and dirty sounding than most Norwegian stuff. But really there's no pattern, even Sweden produces nasty black metal like Craft and early Watain. But overall there don't seem to be many "forest" black metal bands from Finland, they're generally more depressively evil and morbid. As you'd expect from such a place.
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Zamorak
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:12 am
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:17 am 
 

For me, two of my favorite aspects of Finnish black metal are the usage of a certain style of uplifting or even "happy" sounding melodies and the tendency to mix in a lot of punk style riffs with a d-beat or a slower bass/snare groove in between all the blast/tremolo parts.

Some examples:

Alternates between dark and uplifting riffs while breaking up the blast beats with a slower bass/snare pattern


That first melody after the arpeggio intro is a solid example of what I'm talking about


This whole song (especially the second riff) sounds about as happy and triumphant as black metal could possibly be


This song and a lot of Sargeist's earlier output is punk as fuck


More amazing melodies, Baptism is one of my favorite examples of the Finnish sound

There are also some bands from other countries (mainly Germany, from what I've seen) making stuff that's clearly influenced by the Finns

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chaossphere
Metal Lunatic

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:49 pm
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Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:34 am 
 

^Some good examples there. Melody is definitely their strong point, and they manage to create catchy as hell melodies without becoming cheesy which is often a stumbling block in metal.
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Delta_Wing
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Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:58 am 
 

I see you mention blackened thrash and seeing that you will get probably 20 responses dealing with straight black metal opposed to maybe a few dealing with this, here's my 2 cents. In that regards the Swedes definitely have a bit of an advantage if you like early German thrash in the vein of Kreator, Sodom or even Protector.

If you like the blackened bestial vocal overtones, thrash riffs and punk rock drumming in this style it would be recommended you check out some bands like Bestial Mockery, Niflheim, Necrocurse, and even to some extend Merciless, though they are more traditional Teutonic thrash. From Norway Deathhammer also do a good job of playing bestial thrash, though Aura Noir and Blood Tsunami may be better known, but in my opinion not as raw or a good. then there is Impaled Nazarene from Finland who play a mixture of thrash and black metal. check out their early output.

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Yggdrasil1992
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:52 pm
Posts: 2
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:36 am 
 

Wow, All of this has helped me a bunch! Having only really delved into black metal recently i find myself overwhelmed a lot of the time because the genre along with all it's sub genre's is fucking huge! this has given me a better breakdown of everything! Thanks a bunch! :)

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OneSizeFitzpatrick
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:56 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:53 am 
 

Finnish black metal is kinda like the 90's Norwegian stuff but with more melodies and "catchier" (I guess that's a word?), like in a punk rock sorta way like mentioned above. Also, you can hear the bass in Finnish black metal, something that is rarely heard in other bands from different countries.
If we're adding bands to define examples I gotta throw in Baptism's Remains of Cursed Plague, which sadly isn't on youtube, so I'm just gonna link the entire Morbid Wings of Sathanas since it's one of the best examples of the sound (to me, at least)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV6bkfnqjWY

and for the more punk rock side, Sielunvihollinen has some of the best examples of the sound I can think of this early in the morning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQRMaWvYkhE
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6556
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:20 pm 
 

revoltingblob wrote:
I'd say Finland, rather than Norway, is known for "a more raw and gross sound"

Norway is the middle ground between the more raw Finnish and more melodic Swedish variations of the genre

You could say the complete opposite and not be technically wrong in many cases (or even entire scenes and styles). The early Finnish bands were definitely such. They seemed to take the morbidity and darkness of death metal into a black metal format, and turn it into something ridiculously savage and grim. However, for over 15 years now, Finnish black metal seems to have been dominated by a different sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kCSUphnbM4

Sweden, on the other hand, is now infamous for the cookie-cutter orthodox bands, who all implement the same formula of three adjacent minor chords only. Alright, that's an exaggeration, and there are fantastic bands from Sweden as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N35VNziBK94

Norway is diverse, again, but it does seem to fall between the two. Norwegian black metal tends to be more dramatic and profound, even elegant, compared to Finnish bands, but it's not usually as melodic, apart from when bands go for that sweeping, grandiose Nordic melancholy pioneered by Gorgoroth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPKN2Zf8CuM

Fantastic Horna pick, Zamorak! That may just be my all-time favourite black metal album.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:52 pm 
 

National metal sound isn't really much of a thing anymore, metal today is pretty internationalized. However the classic bands of the nineties definitely had such a thing. Based on those I'm familiar with:

Finland: punk structures, melodic simplicity, raw intensity.

Norway: death metal technique, atmospheric and melodic experiments.

Sweden: death metal structures, sweeping, NWOBHM-like sense of melody.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:48 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
National metal sound isn't really much of a thing anymore, metal today is pretty internationalized.

Incidentally, not only certain black metal scenes, but entire countries, sometimes have very distinctive styles that aren't heard elsewhere. When it comes to that certain Finnish black metal style, "punk structures, melodic simplicity, raw intensity" isn't even nearly sufficient a descriptor (that is, certainly very vague considering the extent of uniformity), not to mention partially false or barely comprehensive (unless I understand 'punk structures' here wrong.

I take it you're a black metal guy yourself, so I don't intend to lecture you on this, just saying for reference. In any case, as a black metal enthusiast, I have to say few countries compare to these three Nordic lands in quality, and I suspect that these bands do have certain common traits that I find quite appealing. Whether metal is completely globalised or not, these are still the leading three countries of black metal.
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aloof
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:25 pm 
 

Spoiler: show
Image
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joncheetham88
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Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:41 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:50 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Incidentally, not only certain black metal scenes, but entire countries, sometimes have very distinctive styles that aren't heard elsewhere.

There's still identity to these scenes, because it goes deeper than what you can hear and be influenced by online. It could be to do with bands in e.g. Sweden being physically around one another, exchanging ideas, drinking together, writing riffs, just having a shared attitude or weltanschauung, that sort of atmosphere which lends itself to creation can't be recreated in Instant Messages and VOIP.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:59 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
When it comes to that certain Finnish black metal style, "punk structures, melodic simplicity, raw intensity" isn't even nearly sufficient a descriptor (that is, certainly very vague considering the extent of uniformity), not to mention partially false or barely comprehensive (unless I understand 'punk structures' here wrong.

Well as I said, it's based on what I'm familiar with. By punk structures I mean relatively simple, hardcore punk-like song structures (to be fair those were also often used in Norwegian bm). Finnish bm isn't my speciality however. Perhaps you could give some examples from that period to demonstrate my error?
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Naught
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:49 am
Posts: 60
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:57 pm 
 

Yggdrasil1992, to compliment a few of the comments explaining how the Finnish style of black metal synthesizes with the "crushing" and "oppressive" aura pertinent to many death metal bands, I would suggest listening to Archgoat's catalog if you have not already. In particular, I would suggest listening to the following songs, which illuminate the evident death metal influence that converges with the Finnish black metal style:

1. Archgoat: "Rise of the Black Moon" - Jesus Spawn (1991)
2. Archgoat: "Soulflay" and "Dawn of the Black Light" - These two songs were recorded at a live performance by Archgoat at Deathkult Open Air on April 06, 2011. The track, "Soulflay", is from Archgoat's Angelcunt (1992), and "Dawn of the Black Light" is from their full-length album, Whore of Bethlehem (2006).

As you can tell, there's a very pronounced death metal influence in Archgoat's style of black metal. The guitar riffs, percussion, and general rhythm of the music is very much death metal-inspired. Not to mention, the guttural vocal style further illustrates the death metal leanings that this Finnish outfit carries. Archgoat's style of black metal is similar to that of Beherit's first two full-length albums, each being heavily influenced by a slow, brooding death metal sound.

Another band that is worth mentioning from the Finnish scene is Barathrum, which while different from Archgoat's sound, allows us to examine another style of the Finnish sound:

1. Barathrum: "Moon Calls" - Eerie (1995)

Barathrum, on the other hand, merges a prominent doom metal influence into its style of black metal, as you can hear in the guitar rhythms and percussion throughout their song, "Moon Calls".

I have not heard much of what is going on in the Finnish black metal scene lately, however, I believe that it is safe to state that the Finnish scene is slightly diverse, and it wouldn't be fair to dismiss the scene based on a few sour experiences with a few bands.

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Unholier Master
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:12 am
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:03 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
In any case, as a black metal enthusiast, I have to say few countries compare to these three Nordic lands in quality


To my ears, France, Germany, and Poland definitely exceed the modern output of the Nordic countries. Post-1998, I feel there are stronger, healthier, and just plain better scenes in these three continental European countries than there are on the Scandinavian peninsula.

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Naught
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Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:49 am
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:51 pm 
 

Unholier Master wrote:
Ilwhyan wrote:
In any case, as a black metal enthusiast, I have to say few countries compare to these three Nordic lands in quality


To my ears, France, Germany, and Poland definitely exceed the modern output of the Nordic countries. Post-1998, I feel there are stronger, healthier, and just plain better scenes in these three continental European countries than there are on the Scandinavian peninsula.


I've actually begun to enjoy much of what the mid-1990s Polish black metal scene has to offer. In fact, I discovered quite a few bands from this particular thread, which has in turn, invigorated my interests in the Polish black metal scene.

Granted, what interests one person differs from another, but apart from the post-2000 German black metal output, not much from France has really grabbed my interests. I can't say much on contemporary (i.e. post-2000) Polish black metal, however, I'll defer that judgment until after I listen to a few bands cognizant of Poland's current stylistic trends in composing black metal.

At any rate, I feel that much of what the Scandinavian black metal scenes have to offer is overshadowed by the prominent artists and bands within those respective regions, e.g. Mayhem, Burzum, Watain, and so on. I am one to consider that the individual black metal styles and characteristics of Norway, Sweden, and Finland are much more varied than what many would like to believe. For example, bands such as Algol are quick to be dismissed or otherwise undiscovered given how popular bands such as Darkthrone, Mayhem, and Burzum are within the black metal community. Keep in mind that I am not stating that it's necessarily bad to be popular or well-known within any given regional music scene, but rather, it's easier for otherwise unique bands to be be drawn to obscurity.

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MonumentalBlackArt
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:04 am
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:46 pm 
 

Naught wrote:
Unholier Master wrote:
apart from the post-2000 German black metal output, not much from France has really grabbed my interests.

:scratch:

In order of greatness: Finland > Norway > Sweden. Finnish bands seem to strike the perfect balance between melody and nastiness more often than the other two, whereas Swedish bands frequently get too melodic and lose a lot of power (or are garden variety orthodox shit). Not much coming out of Norway grabs my attention nowadays but it's impossible to deny Burzum, Gorgoroth, Emperor, Taake, etc.

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TheMizwaOfMuzzyTah
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:55 pm 
 

Spoiler: show
Norwegian black metal was all homos, Sweden with blowpeth and co acting as the bisexual bridge bands to Finland, where they make man music.


Last edited by Zodijackyl on Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Samoroth
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Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:59 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:30 am 
 

Current Polish scene blows most scenes of today easily away.

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Sick6Six
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:08 am 
 

Not really joining the "argument" but for some great more "thrashy" black metal I'd suggest the new 1349, Ravencult - Morbid Blood, some Dodsferd and Koldbrann... Norwegian and Greek bands incidentally. Horned Almighty and Finland's Azaghal also have a nice mix aside from bands like Horna and Baptism that have already been mentioned.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:34 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Well as I said, it's based on what I'm familiar with. By punk structures I mean relatively simple, hardcore punk-like song structures (to be fair those were also often used in Norwegian bm).
That probably applies to many bands, but I think it's not very noteworthy. I'm not sure if punk structure entails more than simplicity and low number of passages/lack of progression, though, so I might be generalising too much without enough knowledge about it. If it does mean that, well, it doesn't apply to enough bands to make it a particularly unifying factor. Plenty of Finnish bands write long songs with a high number of passages and subtle but effective thematic development/variation.

Punk is an influence, though. Punk beats and somewhat punk-esque powerchord riffs are, in conjunction, a common element in Finnish black metal.

inhumanist wrote:
Finnish bm isn't my speciality however. Perhaps you could give some examples from that period to demonstrate my error?

I chose these songs based on the first riff, so I don't expect you to analyse them in length. In any case, note the mood and melodic style:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xpjrce4F3Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgohzWHHE8Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obJHppxH7o4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXZ3ygxfIG4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK0bckj8CDE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdvXMC0NT7Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC1cl_zjE6Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WnqdmMzB_I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz7idTeus6U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXDphpem_hc

Not every song of all of these bands are in the same style. This is merely one parallel between these bands (and many more, obviously), and there are more. In some of the songs you'll hear as the second riff what people sometimes refer to as the punkish Finnish black metal riff, for example.

So forget Archgoat and Beherit, this is where it's at.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:52 pm 
 

I believe I know what you mean by that second riff thing, definitely noticed that in Impaled Nazarene material as well. Thanks for the examples. :)
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Sick6Six
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:18 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:

Man that is just one of my favorite songs... that breakdown and riff after the 7 minute mark is perfection. Still the only release by them I haven't been able to track down a factory copy of :/
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:54 pm 
 

I was sure that Kvlt had them, but even they don't have the CD, only vinyl. It much be because of Grievantee's dissolution.

Personally I prefer Harvest, Radiating Desolation and On Death's Wings even.
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bug_man
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Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 12:11 am
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Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:36 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
In any case, as a black metal enthusiast, I have to say few countries compare to these three Nordic lands in quality

Early to mid 90s greece is hard to top, and theres still quite a bit of good stuff coming out of there. the czechs had some extremely good shit as well, though they don't quite have the quantity of good bands that greece did.

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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:21 am 
 

Maybe they aren't comparable in quantity, but I'd take Master's Hammer's Ritual, Sigh's Scorn Defeat, Rotting Christ's first two and Mortuary Drape's first three over anything from Finland (possibly Sweden, too, with the exception of Bathory).

Oh, can't forget Sabbat; all of their 1990s and early 2000s stuff is really good to great. Also, Absu! Two absolute 1990s classics in the shape of the Sun... and Storm... albums. However, I would find it difficult to dispute Norway's supremacy; so many great albums and bands. Darkthrone, Burzum, Immortal, Forgotten Woods, Hades, Emperor, Gorgoroth, Enslaved, Mayhem, Aeternus, Carpathian Forest, Fleurety, Ulver, Isengard, Taake, Kampfar, Thorns... and yes I did "forget" Satyricon on purpose.
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Jonpo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:13 pm 
 

Speaking of the legends, is the new Mortuary Drape on your radar at all Acrobat? My copy shipped from Italia on monday, can't wait to spin it. Everything I've heard/read indicates that WP realized Buried in Time was a misstep and has atoned properly. The sample I heard had ditched that clinically awful sound completely.



How sweet are those twisting lead runs they work in at the end of the sample? Sounds like a return to the Secret Sudaria days. I'm hoping it won't be quite as blunt force trauma as that one though.
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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:08 pm 
 

Yeah, I've heard the preview, sounds like they're back to their old style!
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androdion
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:08 pm 
 

Jonpo wrote:
How sweet are those twisting lead runs they work in at the end of the sample? Sounds like a return to the Secret Sudaria days. I'm hoping it won't be quite as blunt force trauma as that one though.

Oh, yum yum on that teaser. More Secret Sudaria is always a good thing in my book! :nods:
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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:55 pm 
 

Yeah, that could be my favourite from them. 'Wandering Spirits' in particular, is maybe their best track; but then again they're the masters of occult black metal.
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XcKyle93
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:48 pm 
 

The Swedish sound has always been my favorite. Dissection, Dawn, Sacramentum, Vinterland, Midvinter, Abyssos, etc. And that's not even including hybrid death/black bands like The Everdawn, Gates of Ishtar, The Moaning, etc. I like a lot of the classic black metal bands from Norway, but I'm honestly not that familiar with many black metal bands from Finland.
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waiguoren
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:28 pm 
 

Well the problem for most people is that you had these really unique albums from Finland like Drawing Down The Moon and Ugra Karma, then hark! The Finnish 'standard' now is a slight variation of the Norwegian stuff, so yeah it's hard to see an actual Finnish style of black metal, which is a pity but it's only a half-pity as Finland is only half-Scandinavian in any case so it works out well for everyone in the end is what I am saying, if you know what I am saying (and I think you do).

As Acrobat alluded to the older stuff is better in any case, except he should've given toots to the first Varathron album and the second Master's Hammer album, with a dash of Samael but whatevs Trevs what was said was said.
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