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Pratl1971
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:21 am
Posts: 179
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:54 pm 
 

Tezcat wrote:
Yeah... mainstream bands are and always have been "opening gates" for many people. Back in the 80's I was introduced into Meta via bon Jovi, then Maiden and Metallica, then Slayer and Destruction and then I got a hold of the underground, and well... 20 years later, here I am...

@Pratl1971: Wimps, posers and fad-junpers always come and eventually go away after two or three years. Water seeks its own loevel. Those who stand the heat, stay. Those who are just because its cool, eventually disappear. Being into the underground for almost 20 years give gives you this feeling of "well, all these kids are just a bunch of posers, few will stand the test of time, then we will see who stays and who doesn't"... don't you think?

In the meantime we get bands that aren't metal like Limp Biskit, Sun 41 (nominated for a Grammy this year...for METAL!), Marilyn Manson and a slew of other bands representative of metal that are only there because posers and wannbes become the target audience and thereby set the commercial standard. I don't care if they're there five minutes; the fact is their presence pollutes the gene pool and that to me is a disgrace.
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androdion
Metal freak

Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
Posts: 4691
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:07 pm 
 

Dude, that's reality calling to see if your still there. The mainstream will always exist as much as "trve kvltists" if you know what I mean, so no need to get your head spinning about that, it's normal. The fact that good metal usually stays underground is the most important factor here, because let's face it, how many mainstream fans gone metal will loose hours/days/weeks/etc checking out the great stuff? Only those who care enough for good music, and those are the chosen few that will stick to their guns and ditch the mainstream. The rest are, and will always be, just passing by!

Who even cares about so called "metal artists" that get mainstream nominations? I don't! Sure it sometimes strikes me as unnerving at the time I see it mentioned, but I hardly loose any sleep because of it.

I've seen both AHJ and GM from Sam a few times each, and I can say that I understand what he tried to do there. He's just another fan trying to show how and why he loves metal so much, even though some points of view are personally skewed. But let's face it, given the same opportunity how many of us would do the exact same thing? Interview our legendary idols? Check. Travel through the world? Check. Attend shows and festivals to show some part of their importance in the metal culture? Check again. Some people are hasty in criticising but they have to think that not everyone was in the eighties nor the nineties. Hell some people don't even know that metal exists! And if these type of documentaries and series make someone wary of the greatness of the metal world then I'm happy for that. Posers will always tag along but the fact that they don't enjoy music per se will make them shy away eventually.

I can deal with poseurs if it gives a small percentage of people who actually care for metal a chance to discover it. Fuck the rest.
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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:15 pm 
 

I'll have to agree. Even if he doesn't fully cover the gambit, there's a lot of passion in his work.
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death234
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:28 pm
Posts: 241
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:38 pm 
 

The whole reason I listen to metal is because I don't want it to be main stream, I really don't give a fuck if they put it on VH1.

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celt14
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:23 pm
Posts: 587
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:43 pm 
 

How many episodes has there been?

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Nolan_B
In League With Nolan

Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 4365
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:39 pm 
 

Tezcat wrote:
A friend of mine -a guitar player- told me once that while Slayer's Reign in Blood was considered one of the best Thrash Metal albums ever recorded, most of the riffs were vbasically Death Metal. I don't know shit about music theory or guitar playing, so I wanted to ask you guys: How "deathmetallish" are the riffs in Reign In Blood?


"From there on, that was death metal to us, and it’s easy to hear... you know of course the “Reign in Blood” album, I’d say that the vocalist, when he does his part, the riffs underneath are totally thrash. But the riffs that are under the leads there, those are death metal riffs. Total death metal riffs. You can take those riffs, play them slower on a synthesizer, and you would have, like, totally horror."

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Slag
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:56 am
Posts: 2303
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:36 am 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
I'll have to agree. Even if he doesn't fully cover the gambit, there's a lot of passion in his work.
So much passion that he can't get his facts straight. Curious.

death234 wrote:
The whole reason I listen to metal is because I don't want it to be main stream, I really don't give a fuck if they put it on VH1.

Cool to see that anti-conformity is still a fad.. Bravo.
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Young_Metalhead
Saanut kerran. Todistetusti.

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:17 pm
Posts: 1524
Location: México, DF
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:23 am 
 

p0wnn00b wrote:
OneSizeFitzpatrick wrote:
...not to mention adding grunge in there is totally false metal.

That's funny because Soundgarden, Alice in Chains and the Melvins are listed here on MA.

I did not know that... I had to check for Soundgarden in the search box...
It's hard to believe that...

In any case, Sam Dunn is fun, because if you didn't like the part where he interviews Mirai from Sigh asking why is metal better than visual kei... And Mirai saying: "because metal is something cool"... Then you can't appreciate funnyness... :lol:
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MortalScum
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:13 pm
Posts: 1590
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:24 am 
 

Deathwish77 wrote:
DemonHellSpawn wrote:
I don't even know who Sam Dunn is.

He's the geek that listed Sodom under death metal on his metal genre chart. :durr:
That's all you need to know about Dunn's knowledge of metal.

That's not even the worst part, he had Opeth under stoner metal :lol:
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OneRodeToAsaBay
The Doll With the Hideous Spirit

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:49 pm
Posts: 2078
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:38 am 
 

Tezcat wrote:
OneRodeToAsaBay wrote:
I don't see that as a particularly good thing.

Why not? Please elaborate on the subject...
Because I don't consider this type of promotion beneficial to metal at all. It's oversimplified commercialized pandering to vh1's skewed idea of metal that is rife with factual mistakes and it'll merely contribute to the growing trend of people who are 'passing through' so to speak.

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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7741
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:06 am 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
I'll have to agree. Even if he doesn't fully cover the gambit, there's a lot of passion in his work.

I don't think you know what "gambit" means.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:23 am 
 

I believe he meant "gamut".
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
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Location: Fortress Northallerton, North Yorkshire
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:42 am 
 

Fuck, this guy pisses me off. He gets paid to research metal and he can't even be arsed. Stupid twunt.
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metal_reaper678
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:52 am
Posts: 51
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:47 am 
 

I think it is not right to whine just because your favorite metal subgenre is not discussed in Sam Dunn's documentary.
I'm fuckin pissed to those who stick to one or two subgenres and think that others which differ from what they are listening sucks.
Metalheads are supposed to be open-minded individuals.

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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7741
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:03 am 
 

Except that's not what people are complaining about; people are complaining that he really doesn't seem to know much about metal. His infamous chart has places for shock rock, hard rock, grunge, hard alternative and other unrelated things, as well as some non-genres like pop metal and NWOAM, yet does not have doom metal, one of the major styles of metal. And that's not even getting into how bizarre his placement of bands within styles is; from Cradle of Filth in Norwegian black metal to Children of Bodom in thrash metal. The guy just doesn't really know metal.
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Shalk
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:09 am
Posts: 420
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:01 am 
 

metal_reaper678 wrote:
I think it is not right to whine just because your favorite metal subgenre is not discussed in Sam Dunn's documentary.
I'm fuckin pissed to those who stick to one or two subgenres and think that others which differ from what they are listening sucks.
Metalheads are supposed to be open-minded individuals.


Completely wrong.

If this guy wants to do a metal docu as a whole movement, he MUST study and show every single major subgenre, covering heavy, thrash, power, doom, death and black (not sure if progressive is that relevant in this matter).

Metalheads open minded by definition? LOL.

The problem with Dunn is this guy doesn't know a shit about metal, throwing a bunch of non metal stuff into it. The other problem is covering just the more known and surviving acts, while many other less known and short lived bands were the ones that did the 'scene' or were the originators of most styles.

In a weird way, this guy reminds me to Beavis and Butthead with an Astral Doors - Metal DJ attitude.

Oh, and B&B trashed Death and Cannibal Corpse, among other extreme metal acts.
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Louie CK
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:29 am
Posts: 59
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:14 pm 
 

metal_reaper678 wrote:
I think it is not right to whine just because your favorite metal subgenre is not discussed in Sam Dunn's documentary.
I'm fuckin pissed to those who stick to one or two subgenres and think that others which differ from what they are listening sucks.
Metalheads are supposed to be open-minded individuals.


hmm a metal documentary that's supposed to cover all metal that doesn't cover all metal...

whoever heard of a metalhead that only listens to 2 subgenres

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ObservationSlave
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:27 pm
Posts: 379
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:31 pm 
 

OneRodeToAsaBay wrote:
ObservationSlave wrote:
I would be happy that the show is around, because it is at least getting metal further out there.
I don't see that as a particularly good thing.

Looks like Sam Dunn is still another sad 30something who never dug deeper than Fisherprice's My First Metal Band(TM).


I understand your point, but I feel a start is a start. Most metalheads begin with the popular bands and will eventually dig their way deeper into more genres and find a lot of bands that they like. Its possible that viewers of this show will dig deeper into bands mentioned in the show and will eventually find themselves listening to all sorts of metal. My first exposure to anything metal-related was in the early Madden games, and since I have grown away from bands like Disturbed and Godsmack (I know not considered metal), and have found myself listening to Power/Folk/Thrash/Death metal. I believe the show can do nothing harmful, but only possibly introduce metal to future fans.

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Louie CK
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:29 am
Posts: 59
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:46 pm 
 

anyone that learns about metal via sam dunn will be more confused than the average bi curious scenekid

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waiguoren
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:23 am
Posts: 2145
Location: Make a kiss to her
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:19 pm 
 

I downloaded the first three episodes yesterday and went through them last night, skipping a lot of parts, not so much because of the content (which was boring and very similar to A Headbanger's Journey) but also because his annoying voice was driving me around the bend, especially the stress he puts on certain syllables - I'd mimic it here but I'd rather not get his voice stuck in my head if I can help it.

Sam Dunn is really obsessed with letting us know that all forms of rock come from the blues, which is nice and all, but does anyone here that listens to metal like the blues, or listen to it regularly, or even have an interest in it? God knows I don't. And who is that old Jewish psychologist with the overwhelming Brooklyn accent that he's always interviewing? Is this woman even into metal?

I'll probably watch the later episodes, where he schools us on thrash and black metal, and explains how Candlemass is stoner metal, and as always I'm curious to learn about the New Wave Of American Metal, because apparently Sam Dunn is the only person that knows about that genre, seeing as how it's news to everyone else.
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lord_ghengis
Metal freak

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:31 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:21 pm 
 

Wasn't the New Wave of American Metal just metalcore and half thrash?
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OneRodeToAsaBay
The Doll With the Hideous Spirit

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:49 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:44 pm 
 

ObservationSlave wrote:
I understand your point, but I feel a start is a start. Most metalheads begin with the popular bands and will eventually dig their way deeper into more genres and find a lot of bands that they like. Its possible that viewers of this show will dig deeper into bands mentioned in the show and will eventually find themselves listening to all sorts of metal. My first exposure to anything metal-related was in the early Madden games, and since I have grown away from bands like Disturbed and Godsmack (I know not considered metal), and have found myself listening to Power/Folk/Thrash/Death metal. I believe the show can do nothing harmful, but only possibly introduce metal to future fans.
I think you missed part of my point. In my response to Tezcat, I noted the trend of people 'passing through'. I don't know how old you are but I'm in my early 20s and at this age I feel like I know of more people who 'grew out' of metal than I know that are still into it and I think part of it is a result of misguided 'outreach'. There's lots of Emperor-to-Brenoritvrezorkre-in-the-span-of-two-weeks-and-the-next-month-self-proclaimed-dubstep-DJs fans out there and I personally would prefer if they weren't so numerous. I'm not interested in metal evangelism.

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Louie CK
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:29 am
Posts: 59
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:18 pm 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
Wasn't the New Wave of American Metal just metalcore and half thrash?


I'm guessing it's just thrash influenced buttcore and djent bands

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Ritual_Suicide
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:39 am
Posts: 379
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:32 am 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
Wasn't the New Wave of American Metal just metalcore and half thrash?


Yes.

EDIT: Machine Head was in that box btw.

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Zelkiiro
Pounding the world with a fish of steel

Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:41 am 
 

I'd be amused to see where he'd put groups like Epica and Nightwish.

Considering they're among the highest-grossing metal bands in Europe (if not THE), I'm doubtful that he's never heard of them.
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elf48687789
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:03 pm
Posts: 1618
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:49 am 
 

I just wish he wouldn't try to make evolution theories/categories for metal. He can be a good filmmaker though, I did enjoy Global Metal.

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Pratl1971
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:21 am
Posts: 179
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:21 pm 
 

waiguoren wrote:
And who is that old Jewish psychologist with the overwhelming Brooklyn accent that he's always interviewing? Is this woman even into metal?


Supposedly she's a professor at DePaul University here in Chicago and has been at every Manowar show since 1985...as a non-Manowar fan I don't know and don't care, but the woman knows her stuff.
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Pratl1971
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:21 am
Posts: 179
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:31 pm 
 

OneRodeToAsaBay wrote:
ObservationSlave wrote:
I understand your point, but I feel a start is a start. Most metalheads begin with the popular bands and will eventually dig their way deeper into more genres and find a lot of bands that they like. Its possible that viewers of this show will dig deeper into bands mentioned in the show and will eventually find themselves listening to all sorts of metal. My first exposure to anything metal-related was in the early Madden games, and since I have grown away from bands like Disturbed and Godsmack (I know not considered metal), and have found myself listening to Power/Folk/Thrash/Death metal. I believe the show can do nothing harmful, but only possibly introduce metal to future fans.
I think you missed part of my point. In my response to Tezcat, I noted the trend of people 'passing through'. I don't know how old you are but I'm in my early 20s and at this age I feel like I know of more people who 'grew out' of metal than I know that are still into it and I think part of it is a result of misguided 'outreach'. There's lots of Emperor-to-Brenoritvrezorkre-in-the-span-of-two-weeks-and-the-next-month-self-proclaimed-dubstep-DJs fans out there and I personally would prefer if they weren't so numerous. I'm not interested in metal evangelism.

I've been listening to metal music since 1976 and it has been my literal lifestyle since around 1982. I just turned 40 and this music has NEVER left my psyche or my life in any facet at any time. Our movement is special because WE real fans, longtime fans make it special. I have never seen a music class so dedicated and true as TRUE metal fans, save for classical, blues or opera. It takes a real understanding and love of the medium to stick around, through the dreaded MTV implosion, hair rock, glam rock, shit bands like Disturbed and other crap I don't even care to mention, and find the underground by sheer will to want to dive in deeper as opposed to being a surface dweller. The generation I was in is STILL into the music and I see a lot of these guys in the record stores and at shows.

Again, I don't want assholes coming in and polluting my waters, I don't care what their motivation is. You can sniff out the idiots and posers real easily today. It's all well and good what Sam Dunn is doing, though I think he needs more of an education about the REAL history and that means going deeper underground than Gaahl, Lemmy, Dio or some pseudo-satanist spouting off rhetorical crap and calling himself a metal fan; these are important people, sure, but start interviewing and seeking out bands like Witchfinder General, Autopsy, Nevermore, bands that sit on the scar side of the stomach and try and dig deeper from there. In my eyes it's a HUGE responsibility to take on a movement that big, and Dunn's casual approach is both boring and rudimentary.
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SkullGod
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:16 am
Posts: 4
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:51 pm 
 

Aurone wrote:
Persionally, I love his work so I'll keep watching.


+1. I've really enjoyed his output whether I agree 100% with all his ideas/opinions or not. I think he's contrubuted to a better undertsanding of the metal genre and subculture, particulary to non-metal folks like my family.

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ObservationSlave
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:27 pm
Posts: 379
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:48 pm 
 

OneRodeToAsaBay wrote:
ObservationSlave wrote:
I understand your point, but I feel a start is a start. Most metalheads begin with the popular bands and will eventually dig their way deeper into more genres and find a lot of bands that they like. Its possible that viewers of this show will dig deeper into bands mentioned in the show and will eventually find themselves listening to all sorts of metal. My first exposure to anything metal-related was in the early Madden games, and since I have grown away from bands like Disturbed and Godsmack (I know not considered metal), and have found myself listening to Power/Folk/Thrash/Death metal. I believe the show can do nothing harmful, but only possibly introduce metal to future fans.
I think you missed part of my point. In my response to Tezcat, I noted the trend of people 'passing through'. I don't know how old you are but I'm in my early 20s and at this age I feel like I know of more people who 'grew out' of metal than I know that are still into it and I think part of it is a result of misguided 'outreach'. There's lots of Emperor-to-Brenoritvrezorkre-in-the-span-of-two-weeks-and-the-next-month-self-proclaimed-dubstep-DJs fans out there and I personally would prefer if they weren't so numerous. I'm not interested in metal evangelism.

Yea I got you now.

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StevenWright
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:28 pm
Posts: 192
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:56 pm 
 

I agree, if you're going to do a metal show you can't

-Call cradle of filth trv
-Do it in 1 season (idk if this is the case but it's why I'm not jumping to conclusions on how little he's going to cover)
-Not mention Gwydion...because I like them
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PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:58 pm 
 

DAMN IT WRIGHT YOU'RE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT.

It's been said before, and it's worth mentioning again that honestly, it doesn't matter how passionate he may seem, or how popularity works into it, the guy just ultimately doesn't know his stuff.
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StevenWright
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:28 pm
Posts: 192
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:01 pm 
 

wot
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Slag
Metalhead

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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:01 pm 
 

Really, Gwydion? I thought their debut stank and I think I heard their latest. I don't recall being particularly impressed, though better then the debut.
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StevenWright
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:02 pm 
 

Well I like them so idgaf
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I have no idea why any white man would listen to this "gangster drone" bullshit.

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Slag
Metalhead

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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:04 pm 
 

Well yea, cool that they were even brought up. I didn't think they had much popularity.
Also I don't know what idgaf means.
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DemonHellSpawn
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:06 am
Posts: 595
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:06 pm 
 

He doesn't give a fuck.
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StevenWright
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:15 pm 
 

Can't say I'm surprised

I remember seeing highlights for tms and he goes 'I'm lucky to have survived it all'

Words can't even describe how much that disgusts me

...as if interviewing metal musicans puts your life on the line or some shit
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Tezcat
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:39 am
Posts: 333
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:59 pm 
 

Shalk wrote:
metal_reaper678 wrote:
I think it is not right to whine just because your favorite metal subgenre is not discussed in Sam Dunn's documentary.
I'm fuckin pissed to those who stick to one or two subgenres and think that others which differ from what they are listening sucks.
Metalheads are supposed to be open-minded individuals.


Completely wrong.

If this guy wants to do a metal docu as a whole movement, he MUST study and show every single major subgenre, covering heavy, thrash, power, doom, death and black (not sure if progressive is that relevant in this matter).

Metalheads open minded by definition? LOL.

The problem with Dunn is this guy doesn't know a shit about metal, throwing a bunch of non metal stuff into it. The other problem is covering just the more known and surviving acts, while many other less known and short lived bands were the ones that did the 'scene' or were the originators of most styles.

In a weird way, this guy reminds me to Beavis and Butthead with an Astral Doors - Metal DJ attitude.

Oh, and B&B trashed Death and Cannibal Corpse, among other extreme metal acts.


If he were doing a documentary targeted to metalheads, sure, he should do his work well; I wonder if he had in mind the underground metal community as his main target, which I don't think that was his intention in the first place.

I've always thought that his docu is oriented to people who don't understand a shit about what their kids are listening to but somehow want a fast-food version of "what is this noise my kids keep listening too?" Interviews with sociologists and journalists helped him to give his documentary some kind of validation in front of an audience that doesn't give a shit either about details and technicalities of the Metal Universe.

On the other hand, the guys from the british Zero Tolerance Magazine are doing some documentaries focused on real underground bands. Would be nice to see the final result.
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Tezcat
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:39 am
Posts: 333
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:00 am 
 

waiguoren wrote:
I downloaded the first three episodes yesterday...

Just out of curiosity... where did you downloaded them from?

I've searched in torrents and TPB and no luck yet. Since I'm not in the US, I can't watch them on the VH1 website... Would you care to give me some clues?

EDIT: Nevermind, just found it ;)
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Last edited by Tezcat on Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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