Stuff like this? It's by the Polish band Hate

Personally, "overdone" lyrics don't bother me. It's come to be an accepted part of the style, I'd have to say. For my own part, good lyrics can make a song better, but bad lyrics can't make a song worse. e.g. Most black metal lyrics, if I'm honest, are pretty embarrassing, but they work well with the style.

All musical genres has overdone lyrics. People into pop, romantic stuff, hard rock, reggae/ska, electronica, etc... all those styles talks about the same issues over and over. Metal in fact it's quite diverse.

End thread.

Well, that question could be asked not only for metal, but for every other genre of music out there.
If you think about it, there's more songs about love than any other subject, and they keep being written.
To me, it doesn't really matter the subject of the lyrics but how it's done.
When it comes to metal, hell, satan and the like are really overdone topics. But there are bands that write really good songs about hell and others that don't.

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't really the originality of the chosen subject of the lyrics but the originality in writing them.

I agree with this. And the fact that all genres have "overdone" lyrical themes. Metal can get cheesy at times with all the gore and satan and glory of metal stuff, but a skilled band can put a new twist on it.

That said, I think there is a lot of unexplored literature that could be used in metal. On the topic of overdone lyrics, I think Tolkein, Howard, and Lovecraft have been done to death already, and there is plenty of other "metal-compatible" fantasy and sci-fi out there. I would personally like to see more George R.R. Martin (A Song of Ice and Fire, AKA Game of Thrones) in metal. There is some pretty metal shit that goes on in those books, a lot of it more realistic and much less flowery than Lord of the Rings. The Witcher novels by Andrzej Sapkowski would make a good inspiration for some dark fantasy lyrics as well. These are some books that could work for power metal, epic doom, or even death, black or thrash metal. Martin's novels have been used a couple times to my knowledge, but I find it to be underutilized (Seven Kingdoms, a pretty mediocre melodic death/power metal band had an entire album dedicated to the novels, and Lich King and Blind Guardian had a couple songs). To my knowledge Sapkowski hasn't been used at all.

As far as Sci Fi goes, the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons is metal as fuck. Themes dealing with religion and religious corruption, secret overlords which control humanity, death and resurrection, torture, universal warfare and armageddon... oh, and the Shrike is totally The Painkiller. These are themes that metal is already so infatuated with, it's amazing to me that only Manticora has thus far really attempted to tackle it.

Every old Italian painting is a generic portrayal of the Virgin Birth, which is why I don't bother looking at Michelangelo.

Everything about metal is overdone, but hey, that's why we love it!
don't know about you, but I've never really appreciated hyperrealism anyway...

It's not necessarily what the lyrics are as much as how they are said. Same goes with subject matter.

If that's why you really "love" metal I would guess you're young, retarded, and love impressing your buddies with your brutal taste in music.

Metal by nature is over the top and brazenly open about that fact. It's certainly not known for its subtlety or intellectual aspects, though those can be found in some bands. Mostly the best things about metal (well aside from the great riffs and the adventurous songwriting, etc) are how earnest and seriously it takes itself despite being so over the top and overdone. What would you say is a good reason for "loving" metal?

I don't like to use the word ignore, but rather overlook. I presume there are some worth while lyrics to look up. However, I generally only focus on the music. I can't really understand what most bands are saying anyways. I would say that lyrics aren't really necessary to me. However I like the fact that they're there, if that makes any sense. If I find myself listening to an album over and over again, I do generally start to want to know what the lyrics are so I can piece the song together more and find more meaning and fulfillment. I generally just am not big on lyrics, and I don't know if I should or shouldn't be.

1: Genuinely appreciating the music and the musical value a band/artist holds.
2: Genuinely admiring the culture and believing in the ideologies that make it up as well as ones a band may represent.

The idea that someone "loves" because it's "overdone" is just plain stupid and sounds like something a 13 year-old Cannibal Corpse fanboy would wear on a wife beater. There are a myriad of bands for intellectuals, look at the bands that have mastered elements of classical. folk and ambient. Metal's not about being "overdone" by any means.

Of course it can be overdone in the sense that it becomes stereotypical and cheesy, running the gamut from Cannibal Corpse (and probably more obvious with the brutal death metal bands) and Manowar (both in the original post), to the satanic black metal and vampire gothic mentioned in other posts, to even stuff like Steel Panther (I don't want to get into if they are metal or not, just want to point out the kitsch/stereotypical aspects).

On the other hand, there are a lot of metal bands, and just pointing out cheesy examples doesn't mean all metal is cheesy or stereotypical. Other types of music can be cheesy and stereotypical as well. Hip-hop or cheesy pop for example.

And I believe a band can be epic, perhaps even "theatrical" without being cheesy, using perhaps some clichés, maybe not
quite clichés if you know what I mean, and using them well with double meanings. Take this song, for example, "Medieval Steel" by Medieval Steel (with lyrics): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxOwM1csjRI I find this awesome and not cheesy.

Enjoying metal only for the intellectual reasons and for "the bands that have mastered elements of classical, folk and ambient" just makes you come off in exactly the opposite way - as someone who feels the need to justify metal as a "higher art form" above other music, to prove that it has merits to those who look down their noses as it. I can't really see enjoying metal for those reasons to be fully understanding it. Metal is what it is. It can be ridiculous and over the top and theatrical, but that doesn't automatically exclude it from also being something genuine and "real" to those who create it and those who love it. The key isn't to point to its ties to classical or ambient and go "look! I like intellectual music, too!" but to embrace its sort of paradoxical nature as something pulpy or comic-book-ish (or horror movie-ish, in the case of black or death metal), but also truly emotional and gritty as well. Fates Warning's "Guardian" or any number of Metal Church songs in the early 90s embodies this kind of trait. These bands could sing about fantasy themes and horror movie stuff one minute but also do serious, poignant stuff as well, and that's why I like metal. That kind of variety in even one sole album. It's real and genuine.

It also comes down to what genres you enjoy, I guess. I like traditional metal and what comes with that is a lot of great epic storytelling, some exuberant zeal and sometimes lyrics or themes that could be posed as nerdy by some people. More modern metal does get pretty serious and focuses more and more on philosophy, higher thought, etc., but that really is only one facet of metal, and at its core it isn't all like that.

EDIT: OK, I don't mean that "genuinely appreciating the culture/genuinely appreciating the music and values" is misunderstanding the point of metal. That's perfectly fine. But then again, for the genres I listen to, the culture and values of the music aren't that separate from what I've been talking about in this post.

No

sorry to dissapoint you, but I'm 41, not retarded (and even fairly well educated), and most of my buddies enjoy metal, HC, punk, progressive rock/metal, etc. now, please be a nice little boy and behave yourself, especially in the presence of your elders...

and now, in case you haven't understood the aforementioned statement, (and by your comment I can see that you haven't), I'll elaborate my remark on hyperrealism...

I happen to like SF & F, surrealism, and all over-the-top forms of human artistic expression. metal often concurs with that. In many aspects, metal as the music genre and sub-culture on the whole, IS overdone, and sometimes, I like it precisely because of that!
it makes me happy, some lyrics even make me giggle sometimes, and whether artists are aware of the fact they've overdone it or not, on purpose or not, is completely irrelevant.

I hope I've explained myself successfully this time...

It's nice and always a plus when a band either has good, original and/or unusual lyrics, but it's not a negative if they're the same old same old. What is frustrating is when they don't print them, but you know from the snippets you can understand that there's something else going on lyrics-wise (see Trap Them).

Metal lyrics are way overdone. Not that that is a bad thing. Many bands will say this themselves! In fact its the bands that take what they are doing super duper seriously that seem the most silly and overdone. When I hear a band droning on and on about Satan I usually get really bored. I love it when bands that have "overdone" lyrical themes (torture, Satan, ect...) find a way to make those themes seems original or different from other lyrics with the same theme.

Not at all.

I will never get tired of being able to go to a show and sing along about cheesy yet awesome things like violence, Satan, fighting dragons, and how awesome heavy metal is.

Lyrics about Violence, hate and war are realistic, maybe overdone yes, but because is something all, if not many of us, see all the day. Things about daily life are good. Sure, few things are not overdone, but that makes me think... is almost everything done?
Overdone lyrics are those of Satanism, Christ (i only tolerate both of these themes if they don't say the word Christ or Satan almost every 5 seconds... man, certain bands need to elaborate more their lyrics) Teenage love (i really hate these kind of lyrics)

initially i liked metal because it's over done. but that was when i was young. but now that i am older i like it for the two reasons Nhor mentioned.

I don't care for lyrics that are "important" but I fucking love stupid shit like this:

We come from different countries
With metal and with might
We drink a lot of beers
And play our metal loud at night
Fly the flag of metal
Brothers all the same
Born to live for metal
It ain’t no game
Never gonna change our style
Gonna play tonight for quite a while
In heavy metal we believe
If you don’t like it time to leave
Manowarriors raise your hands
We fight for metal
Manowarriors raise your hands
Our fight is real

Hell, yes!

What's not to like?, awesome lyrics right there, I don't know, I don't understand how someone can be a metalhead and not liking Manowar.

I agree with Empyreal and Littlewolf, by the way.

Sometimes the lyrics are good and sometimes they aren't.

My first instinct is to point at Death Metal, particularly brutal death metal for its cheesiness, but when you look at black metal and its constant references to suicide and satan, its really no better. There are bands of all genres who do it well, but most are completely lacking creativity. Folk Metal and Power Metal are totally lacking in any authenticity lyrically speaking, but hey, if you like that, do it. It doesn't usually bother me when a band has shitty lyrics, but I'll always enjoy it more if they are offensive or insightful in some way.

They are often overdone by bands trying to write lyrics that are deep and abstract. The result is often a bunch of gibberish with no meaning.

those are awesome lyrics! though i tend to listen to music with darker subject matter.

My response to that is that metal lyrics are no more overdone than the metal guitar riffs, vocals, bass or drums.


I don't either to be honest. If you truly, wholeheartedly feel the passion and the spirit of heavy metal, you will no doubt relate to Manowar's music 100%. You can't be a true metalhead and bash Manowar, you just can't.

i've heard of Manowar but didn't listen to them until yesterday. so much metal out there to listen to. and more that i've yet to discover. there is so much shitty metal out there it's a task to weed out the crap from the good. the journey continues...

If by "not understanding how someone can be a metalhead and not like Manowar," you mean "Battle Hymns" only, then yes, I would agree. Otherwise it's easy not to like them.

I'd extend that up until and including Sign of the Hammer. Beyond that, though? Fuck off, Manowar.

Those other early albums are good, and I like them, but they're not untouchable like BH is and they're really not even close to the best 80s metal albums either like some people claim...pretty good though in spots, like "Kill With Power" and "Bridge of Death."

And Guyana (Cult of the Damned)

Yeah, not saying they're completely spotless efforts (there is some filler to be found in each of them), but they easily beat the crap out of anything they released later.

How can you honestly think that? I mean, I love all of their albums, but there's no way their early albums beat the crap out of their later albums. Louder than Hell just completely kicks total ass on a level that is beyond comprehension. Dawn of Battle, released as a single in 2002, is easily more powerful than any Manowar song I've ever heard, and of course the title track Warriors of the World is also at an equal level of power and might.

I like Dawn of Battle, and a couple of songs from their latter stuff, but beyond that, yes, I honestly believe that their earlier records are by far superior. Just a matter of consistency and better songwriting, in my opinion.

The songwriting may have been better in the early days, but the recording quality and the overall sound of the band improved drastically after Sign of the Hammer. Live performances have just been getting better and better. I've seen footage of live shows from their early days, and they are laughable compared to the level of absolute ass kickery that the band delivers nowadays.

I don't see how Battle Hymns is an album every metalhead should seeing as it's more predominately hard rock than metal. It's not bad though it suffers from predictable songwriting. I prefer the three after that but they have a healthy dose of filler too. Anything after that gets progressively facepalm worthy.

But putting opinions aside, I don't think any band is a necessity to be liked in order to be called a metalhead because there's too much variety. Also in response to the title, yes. Certainly some phrases and subjects have been done to death but that doesn't necessarily mean they are bad. There are obviously ways to do metal lyrics unconventionally and they can be found, but as a whole it is less common.

It is hard rockish but then again, metal itself has many roots in hard rock and people who try to distance themselves from that or act like they're worlds apart are missing out on tons of great stuff. And I don't know how it's predictable. Songwriting is fine to me.

If I had started out with Manowar's early albums, I might have been more inclined to dislike the later albums, because they would sound as though they were painfully repetitive and unoriginal by following the early ones. But the thing is, I started Manowar by listening to Louder than Hell and Fighting the World, and for me it was a complete brand new thing and very original for me at that point.


For the same reason every metalhead should have Black Sabbath's debut album, which is predominately more blues rock than metal. The same could be said about Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, etc. The point is to pay respect to your roots. Know where your music came from because without the bluesy hard rock stuff metal today wouldn't exist AT ALL.