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Trve_Kawaii
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:15 am
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:40 pm 
 

When do think the Second Wave of Black Metal (especially the Norwegian Scene) ended ? Yeah I know it never really ended and there is still a lot of bands and albums being released today (even more than in the 90's). But I'd like to talk about the movement in the Norwegian Scene that took place in the early 90's with the creation of all these cult bands as Mayhem, Burzum, Immortal, Emperor etc... and all the cult albums they released before a lot of them went in other directions or spilt-up. Personally, I would say it "ended" around 1999, but what do you think about it and why ?

Thank you for the answers and sorry if my english is bad, I'm form France.

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Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:46 pm
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Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:50 pm 
 

Why do you guys romanticize this crap so much?
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Norrmania
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:42 am
Posts: 827
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:52 pm 
 

Is it me or interest in the Norwegian scene suddenly spiked again? Feels like there are threads/discussions popping up every other week suddenly

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Trve_Kawaii
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:15 am
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:56 pm 
 

Diamhea --> I don't think it's really "romanticized", it's a fascinating period in extreme metal history (like the early thrash scene or the early death from Florida and Sweden), and, music history is a cool thing to debate around because it's really interesting and it can explain a lot of stuff in the music and its evolution.

Norrmania --> Maybe its beacause now, around 20 years later, we got more "retreat" (I don't even know if this mean anything) and we can understand it better

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Diamhea
Eats and Spits Corpses

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Location: At the Heat of Winter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:00 pm 
 

I think some black metal kiddies prop it up with their own imagination and give it more credence than it really deserves. Probably because the music itself is really nothing special. I mean how many times can we rehash the same events?

But anyway, carry on.
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Trve_Kawaii
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:15 am
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:04 pm 
 

I think that's more the guys who lived this period and that feel some kind of nostalgia, there are a lot of documentaries/books/etc made about it and it's obsviously not made by young people.

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BastardHead
Magic Mike

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:53 pm
Posts: 7417
Location: Elgin, Illinois
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:31 pm 
 

Old Man Dia has been extra grumpy lately, maybe somebody should start a Skyfire thread to ease him a bit.

As for the subject at hand, all told, I'd say it was over pretty quickly in the grand scheme of things. Look at something like the initial explosion of thrash metal, which didn't start making waves with full lengths until 1983, didn't really reach the golden years until a few years later, and continually released dozens of classics every year until about 1992. Black metal's undisputed classics were coming out a frequent pace from what, 92-98? Maybe you could stretch it to 99 (since off the top of my head I know At the Heart of Winter came out then), but the Burzums and Mayhems and Darkthrones and Gorgoroths of the world were pretty much done putting out those inarguable classics by the time the decade was over.

Keep in mind I could be way off and missing really obvious stuff since black metal isn't my usual stomping ground, but 98 sounds like as far as I'd be willing to go.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:41 pm 
 

Depends on how you define classics, as I'd put the end of those in thrash metal a lot earlier than 1992, and in Norwegian black metal the furthest I'd go for classics would be 1996.
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BastardHead
Magic Mike

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:49 pm 
 

Eh, 92 still had Tapping the Vein and Epidemic of Violence, so I stretched it that far.

As for BM, 96 was the first year I thought of, but then I remembered that I really liked Nightwing so I extended it a bit since I'm pretty sure that's a really popular one too. Though actually it's only now that I'm typing this sentence that I remember Marduk isn't even Norwegian, so it's probably best to ignore me :lol:
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TrooperEd
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:36 pm 
 

It ended when Anthems To The Welkin At Dusk came out.
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theposega
Mezla

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:42 pm
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Location: Yareth Ghanatan
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:41 pm 
 

Nattens Madrigal came out in 97, so we got at least one classic after 1996.
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schizoid
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:35 am
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Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:51 pm 
 

Yeah, it's tough. For the most part the "classic" releases from classic bands stopped somewhere around 1996, but that isn't to say to say there weren't any good or even classic in their own right releases after that. Just not in maybe the established style.
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Chaosmonger
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:59 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:09 am 
 

TrooperEd wrote:
It ended when Anthems To The Welkin At Dusk came out.


and Enthrone Darkness Triumphant. Yeah, '97's not a bad cut-off. And even that is being generous.

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Thoth Amon
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:34 pm
Posts: 106
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:20 am 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
TrooperEd wrote:
It ended when Anthems To The Welkin At Dusk came out.


and Enthrone Darkness Triumphant. Yeah, '97's not a bad cut-off. And even that is being generous.


I love both of those records

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Jackoroth
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:23 am 
 

Honestly I think the real feeling of it ended around the time of Rebel Extravaganza coming out.
That would be one of a few albums that really put the nail into the coffin for it.
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TrooperEd
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:23 am 
 

Thoth Amon wrote:
Chaosmonger wrote:
and Enthrone Darkness Triumphant. Yeah, '97's not a bad cut-off. And even that is being generous.


I love both of those records


I'm not saying Anthems is a bad record (though it damn sure isn't legendary) but because it was so different and symphonic it effectively ended the second wave.
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Chaosmonger
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:59 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:36 am 
 

Thoth Amon wrote:
I love both of those records


that's fine, I still like Anthems, but both were emblematic of the Norse scene's being accepted and swallowed up by the mainstream metal machinery.

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Thoth Amon
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:34 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:40 am 
 

TrooperEd wrote:
I'm not saying Anthems is a bad record (though it damn sure isn't legendary) but because it was so different and symphonic it effectively ended the second wave.


Perhaps... I first got into black metal around 97 so for me albums like Anthems WERE what black metal was.

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Chaosmonger
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:59 pm
Posts: 936
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:44 am 
 

me too, Anthems was once my number one album of all time (now it's not even my fave Emperor). Hindsight is always 20/20, but looking back it's still a bit fuzzy.

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Thoth Amon
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:34 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:46 am 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
me too, Anthems was once my number one album of all time (now it's not even my fave Emperor). Hindsight is always 20/20, but looking back it's still a bit fuzzy.

Initially it was my fave Emperor album but that was supplanted by Nightside. I love both albums but each is quite a different beast from the other.

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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:27 am 
 

Jackoroth wrote:
Honestly I think the real feeling of it ended around the time of Rebel Extravaganza coming out.
That would be one of a few albums that really put the nail into the coffin for it.

The word "extravaganza" alone makes me want to think Satyricon wanted to distance themselves from the Norwegian scene. That is one of the least Norwegian black metal words ever.
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Chaosmonger
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:36 am 
 

I don't think it was about distancing themselves from the scene, just trying to do something new with the style. It's a decent album. I'm not looking at my collection right now but it's possible that DHG's 666 International is the last Norwegian BM masterpiece.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:30 am 
 

I disagree with Anthems, Enthrone and Rebel as cut off points because it follows the "X killed the genre"-logic (like "grunge killed thrash metal"), and for me the right logic is that it cuts off when the outstanding records stop, not when terrible records start. Like with that logic you'd have to put the end of NWOBHM at when Def Leppard making cockless cock rock regardless of the classics Maiden still put out.

Emperor and Dimmu Borgir in particular anyway serve little use as cut off points since they never had much to do with Norwegian black metal to begin with, it makes as much sense as "grunge killed metal", they lost their Norwegian BM sound long before their success. They were still some form of symphonic BM but completely removed from the classic Norwegian sound.

1996 we had Mysticum, Forgotten Woods and Sort Vokter putting out classics, and yeah, Ulver and Gorgoroth still had classic albums in 1997 that were the very latest. It's not just that Varg had removed two classic bands from the scene and Fenriz ended his creative peak, Infernus also lost his spark, Ulver their motivation, Demonaz his working hands, Ulver, DHG and Aeternus their taste for BM, Tunsberg his focus, Satyr his values, Mysticum their minds, and on top of that all the second tier bands from Isvind over Kampfar to Ragnarok just sort of fizzled out.
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Subrick
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:08 am 
 

To me, the last real undisputed classic of the original Norwegian black metal scene was At the Heart of Winter, and that came out in early 1999. That'd be the cutoff point for me.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:23 am 
 

At the Heart of Winter though is not really a classic in the black metal scene, it's more of a classic for heavy metal fans who like to dip into some easy-to-digest black metal on the side. Its big achievement is how palatable it made the genre to outsiders without needing any of the keyboard and circus extravaganza people thought was necessary to make the crowds get into it. Its solid for its ability to stomp out rocking anthems that most fans of Holy Diver or Into Glory Ride can get into, but only uses black metal elements to make it Immortal while being infinitely removed from what any dedicated black metal fan would look for to make black metal what it is and should be.
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Chaosmonger
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:59 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:24 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
I disagree with Anthems, Enthrone and Rebel as cut off points because it follows the "X killed the genre"-logic (like "grunge killed thrash metal"), and for me the right logic is that it cuts off when the outstanding records stop, not when terrible records start. Like with that logic you'd have to put the end of NWOBHM at when Def Leppard making cockless cock rock regardless of the classics Maiden still put out.

Emperor and Dimmu Borgir in particular anyway serve little use as cut off points since they never had much to do with Norwegian black metal to begin with, it makes as much sense as "grunge killed metal", they lost their Norwegian BM sound long before their success.


hmm? Nightside is definitely true BM. I agree that while no album or albums 'killed' the scene, they were responsible (purposefully or not) for it just becoming another metal genre and losing what made it special. But it's nothing to bemoan, that would've happened anyway, like with all other genres.

And yeah, At the Heart of Winter is heavy metal that uses a little BM technique.

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Niklas Sanger
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:20 am 
 

You can't say classic Norwegian black metal "stopped" as if it were disco or some shit. The music just went in different directions, theres bands making everything from black n roll, to prog, to viking, to classic bm etc, just because its not the good ol days of church burnings and controversy doesn't mean it stopped becoming relevant.

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:56 am 
 

I don't think the Norwegian black metal scene ever ended, but there are some certain eras.

Most of the world-changing classics were out by 1994, though these bands did continue to put out significant albums after that year - Burzum, Darkthrone, Emperor, Enslaved, Gorgoroth, Immortal, Mayhem, Satyricon.

The era of experimentation started to come out around 1995, largely transforming by the tail-end of the era by 98-00 or so. Consider every progressive, post-, and experimental band here - ITW, VBE, Ulver, etc. Perhaps an appropriate endpoint for this would be Mayhem's GDOW, and around that time a lot of the experimenters started to settle down in a different style while still being productive. On second thought, the Thorns/Emperor split might've been the later peak. Prog-viking stuff seemed to emerge moreso in the early 00s.

The second second wave began around 98-00 - Taake, Gaahlgoroth, and Carpathian Forest all blossomed around this point.

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Expedience
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:22 am
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:04 am 
 

Here's my own personal theory: there was never any Norwegian black metal scene to begin with. Top that.

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Tezcat
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:39 am
Posts: 405
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:19 am 
 

Expedience wrote:
Here's my own personal theory: there was never any Norwegian black metal scene to begin with. Top that.


Besides the stories/fantasies we've read/heard about the so-called Inner Circle, there is plenty of evidence that these bands worked together: members of band A worked with guy B to form band C, or to help him out on his side/solo project; these guys helped each other with musical ideas, spreading the word via post mail, organized gigs to help each other out, shared rehearsal places and recording studios, had fanzines with certain credibility in the underground back then, or put up labels to release each other's albums, so yeah... that pretty much looks like a scene to me...
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:52 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
At the Heart of Winter though is not really a classic in the black metal scene, it's more of a classic for heavy metal fans who like to dip into some easy-to-digest black metal on the side. Its big achievement is how palatable it made the genre to outsiders without needing any of the keyboard and circus extravaganza people thought was necessary to make the crowds get into it. Its solid for its ability to stomp out rocking anthems that most fans of Holy Diver or Into Glory Ride can get into, but only uses black metal elements to make it Immortal while being infinitely removed from what any dedicated black metal fan would look for to make black metal what it is and should be.


What the high holy fuck are you talking about? Good lord this post is filled to the brim with stupid. This is the kind of idiocy that makes outsiders to M-A think we're all a bunch of elitist pricks.
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BastardHead
Magic Mike

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:30 pm 
 

While I always gag when mentions of "what black metal stands for" are thrown around, drone isn't wrong. I like At the Heart of Winter a lot but it's no coincidence that it was one of the first black metal albums I really liked, and you can see it all over this very site when it comes to how much it resonates with fans of more traditional metal. Solarfall is basically a rewritten Where Eagles Dare, and the raw, chilling atmosphere of basically all the classic albums is pretty much totally excised in favor of grand exciting riffage. I love the album and consider it a classic album, but not necessarily a classic of Norwegian BM. I don't care how much you like it, you've got to admit it's wholly different from Transilvanyian Hunger, Det Som Engang Var, DMDS, Pentagram, and even Immortal's own early albums like Call of the Wintermoon in approach, sound, riffs, atmosphere, basically everything.
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theposega
Mezla

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:46 pm 
 

I still think of it as black metal in the same way Summoning is, or Deathspell Omega. The parameters of black metal have grown. Had At the Heart of Winter or Dol Goldur or Fas been debut records that came out in 1993, they likely wouldn't be thought of as black metal. But the bands started out as more traditional acts and evolved into the style on those albums, stretching the genre's boundaries. It's because of albums like At the Heart of Winter that black metal is the most varied genre in metaldom. And that variety is a big reason why it's my favorite.
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:10 pm 
 

See, if you guys were talking about Sons of Northern Darkness*, I'd understand, because that album fits all those descriptions. There is NOTHING anthemic about Withstand The Fall of Time, Solarfall, At The Heart of Winter or whatever you consider the "big hit" of the album to be.

I also call bullshit on the production of that album being more "appealing" because that production sound has been with black metal since The Somberlain (which came out in 1993, so posega's argument is invalid).

As for everything else, the album sounds like it does because there was a completely different musician writing the album and writing it in a different way because he didn't want to get tendonitis like the Demonaz did.


*which, aside from the grim production, has more in common with Pure Holocaust and Battles In The North than some of the purists want to admit.
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HeavenDuff
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Location: Quebec, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:23 pm 
 

Diamhea wrote:
Probably because the music itself is really nothing special.


*sigh*...

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Chaosmonger
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:59 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:27 pm 
 

like I said above, At the Heart of Winter still uses some of their black metal technique but the songs have a lot more to do with Maiden, Accept, even Running Wild. Dissection is a bad example because they have some BM in their sound but ultimately aren't really a BM band.

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ViF
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 1:22 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:29 pm 
 

for me it was..

borknagar - the olden domain

satyricon - nemesis divina

emperor - anthems to the welkin at dusk

limbonic art - moon in the scorpio

dimmu borgir - enthrone darkness triumphant
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t1337Dude
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:09 pm 
 

HeavenDuff wrote:
Diamhea wrote:
Probably because the music itself is really nothing special.


*sigh*...

The most inane thing I've read on this forum in recent memory. I noticed mods here like to stigmatize people for saying stupid shit but then occasionally say things that most people would probably say is stupid shit. Maybe it's just me but I feel like if you're going to at least say something inflammatory to be at odds with the thread, it's helpful to provide some train of logic to explain why you think it's nothing special. Otherwise it sounds like trolling. Similar to me going into a band thread I don't like, saying "band sucks", and not contributing anything to the thread other than negativity.

The end of second wave, I figured, was around 96/97. Things after that point started to take the black metal sound in different directions, but it's certainly debatable. I wouldn't classify ATHOW along with second wave classics, but I wouldn't tell anyone they're straight-up wrong if they thought it fit in. Surely people within the scene either would have differing opinions, or not give a shit (like Diamhea).

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into_the_pit
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 6:27 pm 
 

TrooperEd wrote:
droneriot wrote:
At the Heart of Winter though is not really a classic in the black metal scene, it's more of a classic for heavy metal fans who like to dip into some easy-to-digest black metal on the side. Its big achievement is how palatable it made the genre to outsiders without needing any of the keyboard and circus extravaganza people thought was necessary to make the crowds get into it. Its solid for its ability to stomp out rocking anthems that most fans of Holy Diver or Into Glory Ride can get into, but only uses black metal elements to make it Immortal while being infinitely removed from what any dedicated black metal fan would look for to make black metal what it is and should be.


What the high holy fuck are you talking about? Good lord this post is filled to the brim with stupid. This is the kind of idiocy that makes outsiders to M-A think we're all a bunch of elitist pricks.


droneriot is 100% spot on here. it's simply his (and my) opinion, and you can't really factually argue against it, no matter what some imagined "M-A outsider" thinks about it. ATHOW is a prime example of a (former) black metal band going heavy metal hymns. personally speaking, I fucking hate this album, but not for what it "did" or did not do to black metal. in my book immortal had lost their spark right after BITN. probably too much hanging around with morbid angel on tour.

anyway, as for the thread topic: zodijackyl really has a point here. the "core classics", or at least most of them, were out by 1994. imo going beyond 1997 (only for under the sign of hell and nattens madrigal) would be a bit of a stretch. what canonic TNBM classic you can't "objectively" do without came out in 1998/99? none I'd say, but feel free to correct me.
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 6:59 pm 
 

into_the_pit wrote:
TrooperEd wrote:
What the high holy fuck are you talking about? Good lord this post is filled to the brim with stupid. This is the kind of idiocy that makes outsiders to M-A think we're all a bunch of elitist pricks.


droneriot is 100% spot on here. it's simply his (and my) opinion, and you can't really factually argue against it, no matter what some imagined "M-A outsider" thinks about it. ATHOW is a prime example of a (former) black metal band going heavy metal hymns. personally speaking, I fucking hate this album, but not for what it "did" or did not do to black metal. in my book immortal had lost their spark right after BITN. probably too much hanging around with morbid angel on tour.

anyway, as for the thread topic: zodijackyl really has a point here. the "core classics", or at least most of them, were out by 1994. imo going beyond 1997 (only for under the sign of hell and nattens madrigal) would be a bit of a stretch. what canonic TNBM classic you can't "objectively" do without came out in 1998/99? none I'd say, but feel free to correct me.



Again, explain to me how Solarfall or Withstand the Fall of Time are "heavy metal hymns."
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