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gazeovice
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:53 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:09 pm 
 

[quote="Foxx"]They're likely just making music they like that they feel doesn't offend their Christian values or whatever as most secular black metal bands would offend them.[/quote]

It's quite the opposite really, or at least that's the impression, I had in speaking to some bands. Sometimes I wonder if they are as rabidly fanatic in preaching Christianity, in some sort of bizarre mirrored paradigm of black metal. Suffice to say that is when they lose all credibility.

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Sathanas_BM
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:55 am
Posts: 276
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:21 pm 
 

Inkshooter wrote:
Yes, unblack metal is Christian black metal. Most of these bands use themes and lyrics from Revelations, which is EXTREMELY violent, gory, and sadistic. I'm guessing this guy just doesn't approve of violence in music, which is pretty much unavoidable in metal.

And if you're looking for good unblack stuff, try

Antestor (Kinda like Dissection, but more melodic)i
Crimson Moonlight (Death/black, probably the best Christian band out there.)
Evroklidon (A more agressive Burzum-esque band)

Even though I too haven't noticed any extremely violent lyrics in unblack metal, I haven't really looked that hard either. I think if there WAS violent lyrics in unblack metal, Inkshooter pretty much said the reason why

Also, Antestor is a kickass band :headbang:
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kampfplatz666
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Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:17 pm
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Location: Vatican City
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:37 pm 
 

I agree with Witcher, Winterkald and some others.
Do NOT support christian black metal acts! They are going against what black metal intended from the very beggining!
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heavyyield
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:27 pm
Posts: 312
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:47 pm 
 

It's funny that christian bands are being bashed way worse than NSBM bands, while the latter can be considered the total opposite of black metal: herd mentality, praising a single race etc. But then again, NS is 'rebellious', so I guess it doesn't matter.

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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
Posts: 4417
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:50 pm 
 

Interesting thoughts. Just getting back to the original post for a moment, I guess we've more or less agreed that no, unblack metal is not a gore-obsessed genre full of sadistic lyrical themes, and that that element is relatively fringe. Which answers my initial question, at least.

I don't really have much of a problem with the idea of unblack metal, I just find it a bit off-kilter and confused. It smacks a bit of closet anti-Christianity, or at the very least betrays a certain dissatisfaction with the lack of "power" available to some Christian believers through more mainstream forms of Christian art. I can understand that. Whether or not you agree with the messages of black metal, the visceral/psychological intensity of it is kind of hard to deny. Doesn't surprise me that some Christians would covet the force they see there and try and co-opt it for the expression of their own spirituality.

Whatever definition we put on black metal––Satanic, anti-Christian, atheistic, have have you––I think we can agree it's an art form that feeds an individualist spirit, and in a way that will always be at odds with Christian belief. Though if what individualism comes down to a celebration of the will, the individual will can certainly be directed in all sorts of ways... and if it is truly an artist's single-minded, independently forged devotion to be a soldier of Christ or to unwaveringly seek out the truth of Chrisitian belief, there's certainly a spiritual intensity there to be recognized.

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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1624
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:54 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Witcher wrote:
BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
circleofdestruction wrote:
Geshy wrote:
Satan is a Christian character. As far as I'm concerned singing about Satan qualifies as Christian music. Just, perverse Christian music.

Erm, no, not necessarily. Singing about Orcs or dragons doesn't mean you actually worship orcs or dragons or hobbits, or believe in them at all. Likewise, having lyrics that reference Satan doesn't make you a devil-worshipper, or mean that you believe in god or the devil.

On the other hand, it is pretty safe to assume people who make unblack metal are actually christians.


Most bands don't actually believe in or worship Satan, it's mostly just an image. Dissection and Therion have some occult beliefs but I don't know if they involve Satan.

Quote:
Indeed, black metal is the only metal genre, that is defined also by the lyrics.


What? No it isn't. Not every black metal band sings about the occult or butchering Christ. Lyrics don't define a genre, man.

In this case, they do. Why do you think it was called "black metal"?



What are you on? Even second wave veterans say it's about the music. Black metal just means that -dark, sinister metal. That's like saying NSBM bands aren't black metal.

Do your lesson on metal history. The name was taken from Venom's album of the same name. It was named so because of the satanic, evil and occult lyrics .
It is both about the music as about the lyrics.


So I can make metal with the same same style of riffs and blast beats as Mayhem, but if I'm not singing about childish religious crap it's not black metal? Flawless logic, Witcher.

Edit: Yeah, I know where the name comes from, it doesn't mean shit, because it still doesn't change the fact that lyrics do not define a genre. If that were true, there's be tonnes of bands that were black metal by virtue of lyrical subject.

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Winterkald
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:08 pm 
 

Perhaps that lyrics do not define a genre. The point is that anti-christian, satanic and-/or occult lyrical subjects are in the very roots of black metal. It has always been that way and therefore Christians don't fit in the black metal scene and should never be tolerated.
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Witcher
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Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:11 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Witcher wrote:
BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Witcher wrote:
BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
circleofdestruction wrote:
Geshy wrote:
Satan is a Christian character. As far as I'm concerned singing about Satan qualifies as Christian music. Just, perverse Christian music.

Erm, no, not necessarily. Singing about Orcs or dragons doesn't mean you actually worship orcs or dragons or hobbits, or believe in them at all. Likewise, having lyrics that reference Satan doesn't make you a devil-worshipper, or mean that you believe in god or the devil.

On the other hand, it is pretty safe to assume people who make unblack metal are actually christians.


Most bands don't actually believe in or worship Satan, it's mostly just an image. Dissection and Therion have some occult beliefs but I don't know if they involve Satan.

Quote:
Indeed, black metal is the only metal genre, that is defined also by the lyrics.


What? No it isn't. Not every black metal band sings about the occult or butchering Christ. Lyrics don't define a genre, man.

In this case, they do. Why do you think it was called "black metal"?



What are you on? Even second wave veterans say it's about the music. Black metal just means that -dark, sinister metal. That's like saying NSBM bands aren't black metal.

Do your lesson on metal history. The name was taken from Venom's album of the same name. It was named so because of the satanic, evil and occult lyrics .
It is both about the music as about the lyrics.


So I can make metal with the same same style of riffs and blast beats as Mayhem, but if I'm not singing about childish religious crap it's not black metal? Flawless logic, Witcher.

Edit: Yeah, I know where the name comes from, it doesn't mean shit, because it still doesn't change the fact that lyrics do not define a genre. If that were true, there's be tonnes of bands that were black metal by virtue of lyrical subject.

It was actually originally so, since most of the satanic metal was dubbed black metal - see Mercyful Fate and similar.
It will be musically black metal, but not in spirit, which demands certain stance. That is why such bands are dubbed 'black metal' here, which also reflects the opinions of the owners.

Christians can emulate black metal in sound, but it will never be real black metal.


Last edited by Witcher on Sun May 16, 2010 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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enghell666
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:10 pm
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:14 pm 
 

Winterkald wrote:
Perhaps that lyrics do not define a genre. The point is that anti-christian, satanic and-/or occult lyrical subjects are in the very roots of black metal. It has always been that way and therefore Christians don't fit in the black metal scene and should never be tolerated.


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Under_Starmere
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:36 pm 
 

For the curious: a list of more unblack acts:

Agathothodion
Borgazur
Elgibbor
Flaskavsae
Glaciial
Light Shall Prevail
Njiqahdda
Offerblod

Almost all of these are released by E.E.E. Productions, and I think a good portion of them are all associated with the same person (the label owner).

Other E.E.E. projects include Drommer and Wrathful Plague, both of which are labeled as 'non-religious', though Wrathful Plague does have a track entitled "Castrate the Sodomites," so I guess they might've let the cat out of the bag there.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:47 pm 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
For the curious: a list of more unblack acts:

Agathothodion
Borgazur
Elgibbor
Flaskavsae
Glaciial
Light Shall Prevail
Njiqahdda
Offerblod

Almost all of these are released by E.E.E. Productions, and I think a good portion of them are all associated with the same person (the label owner).

Other E.E.E. projects include Drommer and Wrathful Plague, both of which are labeled as 'non-religious', though Wrathful Plague does have a track entitled "Castrate the Sodomites," so I guess they might've let the cat out of the bag there.


Njiqahdda is not a christian band:


http://www.blackmetaldvds.com/artists/P ... CD_NJI.htm

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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
Posts: 4417
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:57 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
Under_Starmere wrote:
For the curious: a list of more unblack acts:

Agathothodion
Borgazur
Elgibbor
Flaskavsae
Glaciial
Light Shall Prevail
Njiqahdda
Offerblod

Almost all of these are released by E.E.E. Productions, and I think a good portion of them are all associated with the same person (the label owner).

Other E.E.E. projects include Drommer and Wrathful Plague, both of which are labeled as 'non-religious', though Wrathful Plague does have a track entitled "Castrate the Sodomites," so I guess they might've let the cat out of the bag there.


Njiqahdda is not a christian band:


http://www.blackmetaldvds.com/artists/P ... CD_NJI.htm


Well, here're some quotes from the website of Aquarius Records, who was carrying some of their discs:

We got these from E.E.E. one of our current favorite labels, home to all of the amazing unblack metal we've been raving about forever... so at first we assumed it was another unblack metal offshoot of one of the many E.E.E. bands, but the label assured us it wasn't. Later we discovered, it was actually a sort of experiment to see if folks reacted differently to stuff on E.E.E. if they thought it wasn't Christian. So, after all, it ends up, it is actually guys from Flaskavsae and Drommer...

This latest slab of abstract experimental UNblackness, comes courtesy of aQ faves Njiqahdda, which just so happens to be the work of the man behind a bunch of other aQ unblack faves including Light Shall Prevail, Agathothodion, Glaciial and others.

So I guess it's Christian, and at the very least Christian-related.

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Witcher
Metal freak

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Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 3:07 pm 
 

Aquarius Records do not know anything, they call Wrathful Plague an unblack metal band too.
Once again, it is important what the artist says, not the distro, which only carries it in its shop.
They also apparently consider unblack metal a distant genre of metal, which is different also musically from the rest of black metal :roll:
See the coments which they have for other EEE releases..
The guy behind EEE does not make things easy, though - DarkDark were apparenly originally regular black metal and became a christian bands later, then the Wrathful Plague project and so on.

But the lyrics in this project are not about christianity, which is what matters.

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Geshy
Butterfly Matron Gaia

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:52 pm
Posts: 625
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 3:43 pm 
 

circleofdestruction wrote:
Geshy wrote:
Satan is a Christian character. As far as I'm concerned singing about Satan qualifies as Christian music. Just, perverse Christian music.

Erm, no, not necessarily. Singing about Orcs or dragons doesn't mean you actually worship orcs or dragons or hobbits, or believe in them at all. Likewise, having lyrics that reference Satan doesn't make you a devil-worshipper, or mean that you believe in god or the devil.

On the other hand, it is pretty safe to assume people who make unblack metal are actually christians.


Well regardless of whether or not it is tongue-in-cheek, it is still what it is. Deicide are all about satan-worship yet they personally do not worship satan. But you can't tell me there aren't black metal bands that don't genuinely worship satan. If you believe that then you're foolish.
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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:25 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
Aquarius Records do not know anything, they call Wrathful Plague an unblack metal band too.
Once again, it is important what the artist says, not the distro, which only carries it in its shop.
They also apparently consider unblack metal a distant genre of metal, which is different also musically from the rest of black metal :roll:
See the coments which they have for other EEE releases..
The guy behind EEE does not make things easy, though - DarkDark were apparenly originally regular black metal and became a christian bands later, then the Wrathful Plague project and so on.

But the lyrics in this project are not about christianity, which is what matters.


Well they actually went out of their way to mention that Wrathful Plague supposedly aren't an unblack band, if you actually bothered to read the whole thing:

With a name like Wrathful Plague, and the fact that these guys are on E.E.E., you might assume that this is more unblack metal, but in fact, according to the label, the band is non-religious, not the first E.E.E. band to keep their convictions on the DL (Drommer is another)

There aren't any lyrics for their albums here on the Archives, so I can't really say myself, but with track titles like "Pissing on Satan" and "Castrate the Sodomites," you kind of get a sense of where their sympathies lie. Call me crazy.

Witcher wrote:
They also apparently consider unblack metal a distant genre of metal, which is different also musically from the rest of black metal


Distant genre of metal...please, they're just nerds given to hyperbolic description. Anyway, none of this changes the fact that these bands are of the unblack variety or have ties to unblack artists.

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Inkshooter
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:55 pm
Posts: 363
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:47 pm 
 

enghell666 wrote:
Yes, because it is pro-christianity and has christian lyrics. christianity has absolutely no place in metal and no place in modern society what so ever, so do NOT support!


Oh look, I'm donating money to the church and buying unblack metal bands! I'm SUCH AN IDIOT!

<_<

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Winterkald
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 10:43 am
Posts: 1346
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:19 pm 
 

Inkshooter wrote:
enghell666 wrote:
Yes, because it is pro-christianity and has christian lyrics. christianity has absolutely no place in metal and no place in modern society what so ever, so do NOT support!


Oh look, I'm donating money to the church and buying unblack metal bands! I'm SUCH AN IDIOT!

<_<


Quit trolling and post a more serious reaction please. But you are right though ;) .
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1624
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:40 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
It was actually originally so, since most of the satanic metal was dubbed black metal - see Mercyful Fate and similar.
It will be musically black metal, but not in spirit, which demands certain stance. That is why such bands are dubbed 'black metal' here, which also reflects the opinions of the owners.

Christians can emulate black metal in sound, but it will never be real black metal.


Look man, I know your idea of trve kvlt black metal is important to you, but the first wave of black metal were bands that simply took thrash to another level, like Bathory and Celtic Frost. The lyrics were occult but the music was also harsher, more aggressive. Christian lyrics are every bit as stupid as the Satanic rubbish, possibly more so since they're generally serious and more preachy. But if the music is dark and foreboding, who cares? If you don't like it, fine, I don't. But nothing you can say will change the fact that playing harsh-as-fuck tremelo riffs, raspy rotten vocals and (insert suitable simile for drums) drums equals black metal. What difference does it make since you can't hear the lyrics anyway?

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:45 pm 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
Witcher wrote:
Aquarius Records do not know anything, they call Wrathful Plague an unblack metal band too.
Once again, it is important what the artist says, not the distro, which only carries it in its shop.
They also apparently consider unblack metal a distant genre of metal, which is different also musically from the rest of black metal :roll:
See the coments which they have for other EEE releases..
The guy behind EEE does not make things easy, though - DarkDark were apparenly originally regular black metal and became a christian bands later, then the Wrathful Plague project and so on.

But the lyrics in this project are not about christianity, which is what matters.


Well they actually went out of their way to mention that Wrathful Plague supposedly aren't an unblack band, if you actually bothered to read the whole thing:

With a name like Wrathful Plague, and the fact that these guys are on E.E.E., you might assume that this is more unblack metal, but in fact, according to the label, the band is non-religious, not the first E.E.E. band to keep their convictions on the DL (Drommer is another)

There aren't any lyrics for their albums here on the Archives, so I can't really say myself, but with track titles like "Pissing on Satan" and "Castrate the Sodomites," you kind of get a sense of where their sympathies lie. Call me crazy.

Witcher wrote:
They also apparently consider unblack metal a distant genre of metal, which is different also musically from the rest of black metal



http://www.myspace.com/wrathfulplague
Read the statement on the page above, see the image of Nostaun.
"Sodomites" are apparently child molesters.
He also explained the strange history of his band on the Sand Q forum about two yeras ago.


Distant genre of metal...please, they're just nerds given to hyperbolic description. Anyway, none of this changes the fact that these bands are of the unblack variety or have ties to unblack artists.

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Witcher
Metal freak

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:27 am
Posts: 6077
Location: Czech Republic
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:50 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Witcher wrote:
It was actually originally so, since most of the satanic metal was dubbed black metal - see Mercyful Fate and similar.
It will be musically black metal, but not in spirit, which demands certain stance. That is why such bands are dubbed 'black metal' here, which also reflects the opinions of the owners.

Christians can emulate black metal in sound, but it will never be real black metal.


Look man, I know your idea of trve kvlt black metal is important to you, but the first wave of black metal were bands that simply took thrash to another level, like Bathory and Celtic Frost. The lyrics were occult but the music was also harsher, more aggressive. Christian lyrics are every bit as stupid as the Satanic rubbish, possibly more so since they're generally serious and more preachy. But if the music is dark and foreboding, who cares? If you don't like it, fine, I don't. But nothing you can say will change the fact that playing harsh-as-fuck tremelo riffs, raspy rotten vocals and (insert suitable simile for drums) drums equals black metal. What difference does it make since you can't hear the lyrics anyway?

I do not care about any true kult black metal, I explain to you the history of the genre and how it was considered in the beginng. If it is different today, then there is something wrong in the scene.
For the last time, they can emulate it musically, but it will never be the real thing.

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EntilZha
Retired

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:04 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
but the first wave of black metal were bands that simply took thrash to another level,

Hmm. Venom's "Welcome to Hell" was released in January of 1981 (and their demo in 1980). The earliest recordings generally considered thrash were released around 1982-83. So, what you are saying is that a band that started releasing stuff around 1980-81 took a genre that emerged in 1982-83 to the next level before it even existed. Makes a lot of sense.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:05 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Witcher wrote:
It was actually originally so, since most of the satanic metal was dubbed black metal - see Mercyful Fate and similar.
It will be musically black metal, but not in spirit, which demands certain stance. That is why such bands are dubbed 'black metal' here, which also reflects the opinions of the owners.

Christians can emulate black metal in sound, but it will never be real black metal.


Look man, I know your idea of trve kvlt black metal is important to you, but the first wave of black metal were bands that simply took thrash to another level, like Bathory and Celtic Frost. The lyrics were occult but the music was also harsher, more aggressive. Christian lyrics are every bit as stupid as the Satanic rubbish, possibly more so since they're generally serious and more preachy. But if the music is dark and foreboding, who cares? If you don't like it, fine, I don't. But nothing you can say will change the fact that playing harsh-as-fuck tremelo riffs, raspy rotten vocals and (insert suitable simile for drums) drums equals black metal. What difference does it make since you can't hear the lyrics anyway?


The fact that you even use the term "trve kvlt" is a sign you have no idea what you're talking about and should not be taken seriously.
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Whackooyzero
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:07 pm 
 

You guys are all sounding real childish you know? What you don't like Christianity so thus they can't sing about it? That poor Euronymous definition of BM having to have satanic lyrics is pretty much gone nowadays anyways. I mean look at Summoning, Immortal, and Drudkh, we have so many bands who don't sing about satan, that you're just sounding like "I HATE CHRISTIANITY SO NO BAND CAN SING ABOUT IT BECAUSE THAT'S NOT METAL!" bullshit.

I never call these bands unblack, because if they are musically black metal, they are black metal so whether you like their ideology or not that doesn't change the genre. I don't see why BM is the only genre where the ideology is so important, especially considering nobody gets mad when a death metal band sings about a topic other than gore, stop acting like teenagers trying to rebel.
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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:09 pm 
 

Witcher wrote:
http://www.myspace.com/wrathfulplague
Read the statement on the page above, see the image of Nostaun.
"Sodomites" are apparently child molesters.
He also explained the strange history of his band on the Sand Q forum about two yeras ago.


Meanwhile his personal MySpace, under the user name "Lord of Hypocrisy," begins with a quote from the Bible. The whole thing actually seems like some odd joke to me now. But whatever, I never said this band was technically an unblack band in the first place, only that it stood to reason that people might be led to believe that, given certain circumstances. Let's just cross this one off the list as "undetermined" and get on with our lives, shall we?

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:18 pm 
 

Whackooyzero wrote:
You guys are all sounding real childish you know? What you don't like Christianity so thus they can't sing about it? That poor Euronymous definition of BM having to have satanic lyrics is pretty much gone nowadays anyways. I mean look at Summoning, Immortal, and Drudkh, we have so many bands who don't sing about satan, that you're just sounding like "I HATE CHRISTIANITY SO NO BAND CAN SING ABOUT IT BECAUSE THAT'S NOT METAL!" bullshit.

I never call these bands unblack, because if they are musically black metal, they are black metal so whether you like their ideology or not that doesn't change the genre. I don't see why BM is the only genre where the ideology is so important, especially considering nobody gets mad when a death metal band sings about a topic other than gore, stop acting like teenagers trying to rebel.


Who ever said BM can't sing about ANYTHING but satan? There's a difference between that and the fact that the genre as a whole is inherently evil in nature. If a black metal band wants to sing about christianity, they can go ahead, but it defies all logic why anyone would form a black metal band to do that in the first place. Why would you start a band in a genre that DIRECTLY OPPOSES YOUR BELIEFS? It's like if a Jew walked around wearing a swastika, or if a black guy put on a KKK uniform. Not as drastic, but that's pretty much what the idea is. You are not understanding what we're saying here.
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caspian
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:20 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Who ever said BM can't sing about ANYTHING but satan? There's a difference between that and the fact that the genre as a whole is inherently evil in nature. If a black metal band wants to sing about christianity, they can go ahead, but it defies all logic why anyone would form a black metal band to do that in the first place. You are not understanding what we're saying here.


Hate to repeat myself here, but a lot of the fruitier black (Bergtatt) doesn't really sound evil by any stretch of the imagination. Likewise, stuff like WITTR (don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is amazing BM or anything) could be made christian without any major problems. Black Metal is a big genre. A lot of it doesn't fit, some of it would.
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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:55 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
You are not understanding what we're saying here.

I'm going to generalize a lot here for the sake of brevity, so bear with me. The impressions of Christianity here are my own and may not be factually representative of each religion, sect, and cult swearing allegiance to the fictional character of Christ. (Yes, Christ is a fictional character who probably was based on a real person named Yhshwh, which probably wasn't even his real name since it means "teacher" and "messiah.")

One of the key components of black metal is embracing the aspects of human nature which much of Christian dogma seeks to subvert. Strong emotions and desires must be tamed utterly rather than moderately indulged or fully explored. Negative emotions such as anger and depression, while understood clearly by Christians, are things to bottle up and ignore whilst assuring yourself that you're ace if Christ is your homeboy. The Gnostic view of this world as the filthy and despicable offspring of a flawed demiurge crept into mainstream Christian thought in mostly subtle ways, and I suspect that a majority of Christians, evangelical or otherwise, can't wait to die and get the fuck out of here. Black metal--and "Satanism," coincidentally--prefer to revel in this existence, however illusory it may be. Life is a theater of learning and growth rather than a cage to suffer in for evils no greater than being human. Before anyone mentions DSBM: if they don't kill themselves, trust me, they enjoy being here.

The philosophies of art endorsed by Susanne K. Langer apply directly to this discussion. For one, art is a symbolic expression of human feeling (experiences and the emotions connected to them). Since Christianity isn't supposed to endorse or explore violence, revenge--that was the Old Testament God, the demiurge and the deity of the Jews--hedonism, depression, and all the other bad shit that makes for a well-rounded person, it is philosophically opposed to what the originators of black metal were expressing. That's even before we shuffle Old Scratch onto the stage. Langer also felt that works of art must be viewed in Gestalt rather than element by element. It's the whole, complete piece which makes a work of art what it is. In this light, you CAN NOT remove lyrics from the equation when discussing musical genres.

What I think a lot of people are forgetting is that Christianity isn't just against Satanism (which isn't even a century old as a cohesive dogma) but against all other religions. I read some of the lyrics from Frost Like Ashes and stumbled upon "Shattered Idols," which lumps Odin and Osiris (noble and good deities) with Belial and Lilith so they can all be cast away "like a menstrual rag." Compelling symbolism, faggots. Black metal has always been about pagan religions and their ideals as well as evil and Satanism, which in its various forms is simply an amalgamation of myriad pagan beliefs (note that many of the names attributed to the Devil are distinct deities from dead religions). Atavistic, I believe, is the best word.
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kampfplatz666
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:02 pm 
 

Unfortunately for you ('BM is just music' guys), BM is not just a form of playing music, it's ask for certain views that are neccesary to assume.
You can play the same as the founders but if you do not share the some of the key ideology you're doing something else like just 'extreme christian metal' or something alike.
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Thorr
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:30 pm 
 

This topic is really played out and totally idiotic. Hellhammer did the session drumming on two of Antestor's releases. If he can not only tolerate Christian black metal, but actually support it, then I really have no problems.

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Rild
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:06 am 
 

So you have no problem with Dimmu Borgir either?

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King_Hands
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:02 am 
 

kampfplatz666 wrote:
I agree with Witcher, Winterkald and some others.
Do NOT support christian black metal acts! They are going against what black metal intended from the very beggining!

Why should I, or anyone else, give a fuck about what black metal intended from the very beginning? Black metal goes against what metal in general intended from the very beginning.

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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:55 am 
 

Thorr wrote:
This topic is really played out and totally idiotic. Hellhammer did the session drumming on two of Antestor's releases. If he can not only tolerate Christian black metal, but actually support it, then I really have no problems.

This topic is played out, but not idiotic. It becomes so when people use this type of logic to support their perspectives. Hellhammer is a hired-gun drummer who will play in any band and was part of black metal in its formative years simply by accident of location.
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circleofdestruction
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:58 am 
 

Geshy wrote:
Well regardless of whether or not it is tongue-in-cheek, it is still what it is. Deicide are all about satan-worship yet they personally do not worship satan. But you can't tell me there aren't black metal bands that don't genuinely worship satan. If you believe that then you're foolish.

I never said it was tongue in cheek, nor did I mean to imply that it was. I meant that many of them are not actually worshiping the devil, because they are against religion. Many of them with a more blasphemous stance and "satanic" lyrics are using that as a way to express that they are against religion (including devil worship).

I also never said that some bands don't worship the devil (I was only pointing out that many DO NOT, because it seemed like people here were saying that if they talk about the devil, they must be religious and worship the devil literally). Some do, but I think they are just as much non-black metal as any unblack band. (Because I consider unblack to just be metal bands, I can't seriously consider them to be black metal.)

Quote:
Why should I, or anyone else, give a fuck about what black metal intended from the very beginning? Black metal goes against what metal in general intended from the very beginning.

What did metal in general intend from the beginning?
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King_Hands
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:19 am 
 

circleofdestruction wrote:
Quote:
Why should I, or anyone else, give a fuck about what black metal intended from the very beginning? Black metal goes against what metal in general intended from the very beginning.

What did metal in general intend from the beginning?

It did not intend to be anti-christian/satanic/whatever from the beginning.

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circleofdestruction
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:35 am 
 

King_Hands wrote:
circleofdestruction wrote:
Quote:
Why should I, or anyone else, give a fuck about what black metal intended from the very beginning? Black metal goes against what metal in general intended from the very beginning.

What did metal in general intend from the beginning?

It did not intend to be anti-christian/satanic/whatever from the beginning.

That's sort of assuming that metal has a mind of its own and can say what it did or did not intend. Sure, nobody set out to say "We're gonna make a music style called metal and it's not antichristian!" but people DID make a subset of metal, namely BM, and say it should be a certain way. So it doesn't really matter that the original metal bands had no such thing in mind.

That's like the people who argue that extreme metal isn't metal because it doesn't sound like traditional metal and is therefore false.

I don't think you, personally, necessarily need to give a damn about what BM intended originally, however, a lot of people do, and that's why they are explaining it here.

But on the topic, I haven't heard much unblack, and what i did hear has not been violent. Now i'm curious though, because I think violent unblack metal must be hilarious.
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AngelofDeath777
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:16 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:37 am 
 

King_Hands wrote:
circleofdestruction wrote:
Quote:
Why should I, or anyone else, give a fuck about what black metal intended from the very beginning? Black metal goes against what metal in general intended from the very beginning.

What did metal in general intend from the beginning?

It did not intend to be anti-christian/satanic/whatever from the beginning.


In fact Black Sabbath sang some Christian lyrics so maybe the whole Genre should be in strict adherance to those same ideas.

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Under_Starmere
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:50 am 
 

caspian wrote:
Hate to repeat myself here, but a lot of the fruitier black (Bergtatt) doesn't really sound evil by any stretch of the imagination.


Though, interestingly, the content of Bergtatt actually is pretty fucking dark. I received a quite trustworthy translation of the lyrics a while back, and it's rather bleak, bloodthirsty-forces-of-pagan-nature-destroy-the-innocent-Christian-child material. Albeit delivered in a rather fairy tale-esque way.

King_Hands wrote:
Why should I, or anyone else, give a fuck about what black metal intended from the very beginning?


I sort of agree with this. Styles evolve. Every genre of art has its variations. The originators of a style don't embody some sacred writ of what shall happen to the style, or how people shall interpret it. Their particular lyrical/philosophical inclinations don't necessarily throw down some cage around how that same style can be used in the future. As long as there are a multiplicity of possible themes being explored here from the get-go (e.g. Satanism, anti-religion, nature, death, the occult), there's already room for interpretation built in. And I'm not sure if "evil" has to factor in, either. I think occult themes, nature themes, anti-religion themes are all fairly accepted for "true" black metal, which, in and of themselves, aren't objectively "evil". Just because some people see them that way doesn't make it impossible to interpret them otherwise.

All that said, do I think Christian themes have any place in black metal? No, they seem pretty ideologically opposed. I don't think black metal has to be explicitly about Satan, but I do feel the whole outlook of black metal as a whole to be very non-Judeo-Christian, to say the least. The very concept of unblack metal just seems silly to me just because it appears so bizarrely hypocritical on the part of the musicians themselves, as has been mentioned earlier. It's like the ACLU wearing Nazi uniforms at protests because it gives their message more oomph.

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Winterkald
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Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 10:43 am
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 4:45 am 
 

circleofdestruction wrote:
Geshy wrote:
Well regardless of whether or not it is tongue-in-cheek, it is still what it is. Deicide are all about satan-worship yet they personally do not worship satan. But you can't tell me there aren't black metal bands that don't genuinely worship satan. If you believe that then you're foolish.

I never said it was tongue in cheek, nor did I mean to imply that it was. I meant that many of them are not actually worshiping the devil, because they are against religion. Many of them with a more blasphemous stance and "satanic" lyrics are using that as a way to express that they are against religion (including devil worship).

I also never said that some bands don't worship the devil (I was only pointing out that many DO NOT, because it seemed like people here were saying that if they talk about the devil, they must be religious and worship the devil literally). Some do, but I think they are just as much non-black metal as any unblack band. (Because I consider unblack to just be metal bands, I can't seriously consider them to be black metal.)



Satanic lyrics are another way to provoke and-/or anti-Christian symphaties.

And also, black metal does not have to be about Satanism by any means. But keep in mind that Pagan themes are also anti-Christian. I can pretty much guarantee you all that pretty much every black metal band that does not have lyrics about Satanism (and Christianity, obviously) or so has anti-Christian symphaties and does not approve of Christianity.

Also, black metal does not have to have Satanic
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circleofdestruction
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:49 am 
 

Winterkald wrote:
Satanic lyrics are another way to provoke and-/or anti-Christian symphaties.

And also, black metal does not have to be about Satanism by any means. But keep in mind that Pagan themes are also anti-Christian. I can pretty much guarantee you all that pretty much every black metal band that does not have lyrics about Satanism (and Christianity, obviously) or so has anti-Christian symphaties and does not approve of Christianity.

Also, black metal does not have to have Satanic

I know.

My post was in response to the posts implying that all BMers are devil worshipers.
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NightmareLake
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:56 am 
 

I thought lyrics didn't matter? HA!

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