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King_Hands
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:45 pm 
 

SomberSymphony wrote:
I really don't think that the entire black metal vs. Christian black metal debate will go anywhere. Why? Two components.

1.) Some people believe music is defined by the sound.
2.) Some people believe music is defined by the lyrics.

If you hold to 1.), then Christian black metal is really just black metal being played by Christians. Examples: Antestor, Slechtvalk, etc.

If you hold to 2.), then Christian black metal is a paradox. Norwegian black metal was largely a response to the opposition by Christians who hated black metallers. There was a huge amount of hatred between black metallers and Christians in Norway. Varg Vikernes has mentioned that burning churches was a strong reaction to the burning that the Christians did when they came to Norway. Norwegian black metal was built upon the hatred of Christianity, thus the lyrics are heavily anti-Christian and pro-Satan, even though none of the black metallers were Satanic. Thus, the origins of black metal cannot be understood and taken by Christian bands, because they would have to be Christian lyricists writing anti-Christian lyrics with an anti-Christian mindset. It doesn't work. FOR THIS REASON, Antestor took up the genre of "sorrow metal". That is what they called themselves. However, if you listen to their album, "The Forsaken", it's very much black metal. However, they wanted to stay with sorrow metal because they realized that there was too much opposition from people who hold onto component 2.).

Although in the end, it doesn't really matter. I view black metal as being defined by sorrow, grim, dark, and hopeless atmospheres. That is extremely possible for a Christian to write about, because being a Christian is a far cry from being easy. So if you think of black metal as darkness and sorrow, Christian black metal exists. If you think of black metal as anti-Christian darkness and sorrow, then just call it sorrow metal instead of something stupid like "white metal" or "unblack metal".

This is a very well written post.

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DrummingEdge133
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Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:48 pm
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 5:53 pm 
 

King_Hands wrote:
SomberSymphony wrote:
I really don't think that the entire black metal vs. Christian black metal debate will go anywhere. Why? Two components.

1.) Some people believe music is defined by the sound.
2.) Some people believe music is defined by the lyrics.

If you hold to 1.), then Christian black metal is really just black metal being played by Christians. Examples: Antestor, Slechtvalk, etc.

If you hold to 2.), then Christian black metal is a paradox. Norwegian black metal was largely a response to the opposition by Christians who hated black metallers. There was a huge amount of hatred between black metallers and Christians in Norway. Varg Vikernes has mentioned that burning churches was a strong reaction to the burning that the Christians did when they came to Norway. Norwegian black metal was built upon the hatred of Christianity, thus the lyrics are heavily anti-Christian and pro-Satan, even though none of the black metallers were Satanic. Thus, the origins of black metal cannot be understood and taken by Christian bands, because they would have to be Christian lyricists writing anti-Christian lyrics with an anti-Christian mindset. It doesn't work. FOR THIS REASON, Antestor took up the genre of "sorrow metal". That is what they called themselves. However, if you listen to their album, "The Forsaken", it's very much black metal. However, they wanted to stay with sorrow metal because they realized that there was too much opposition from people who hold onto component 2.).

Although in the end, it doesn't really matter. I view black metal as being defined by sorrow, grim, dark, and hopeless atmospheres. That is extremely possible for a Christian to write about, because being a Christian is a far cry from being easy. So if you think of black metal as darkness and sorrow, Christian black metal exists. If you think of black metal as anti-Christian darkness and sorrow, then just call it sorrow metal instead of something stupid like "white metal" or "unblack metal".

This is a very well written post.


It is also a classic and obvious example of a logical fallacy.

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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 7:03 pm 
 

DrummingEdge133 wrote:
King_Hands wrote:
SomberSymphony wrote:
I really don't think that the entire black metal vs. Christian black metal debate will go anywhere. Why? Two components.

1.) Some people believe music is defined by the sound.
2.) Some people believe music is defined by the lyrics.

If you hold to 1.), then Christian black metal is really just black metal being played by Christians. Examples: Antestor, Slechtvalk, etc.

If you hold to 2.), then Christian black metal is a paradox. Norwegian black metal was largely a response to the opposition by Christians who hated black metallers. There was a huge amount of hatred between black metallers and Christians in Norway. Varg Vikernes has mentioned that burning churches was a strong reaction to the burning that the Christians did when they came to Norway. Norwegian black metal was built upon the hatred of Christianity, thus the lyrics are heavily anti-Christian and pro-Satan, even though none of the black metallers were Satanic. Thus, the origins of black metal cannot be understood and taken by Christian bands, because they would have to be Christian lyricists writing anti-Christian lyrics with an anti-Christian mindset. It doesn't work. FOR THIS REASON, Antestor took up the genre of "sorrow metal". That is what they called themselves. However, if you listen to their album, "The Forsaken", it's very much black metal. However, they wanted to stay with sorrow metal because they realized that there was too much opposition from people who hold onto component 2.).

Although in the end, it doesn't really matter. I view black metal as being defined by sorrow, grim, dark, and hopeless atmospheres. That is extremely possible for a Christian to write about, because being a Christian is a far cry from being easy. So if you think of black metal as darkness and sorrow, Christian black metal exists. If you think of black metal as anti-Christian darkness and sorrow, then just call it sorrow metal instead of something stupid like "white metal" or "unblack metal".

This is a very well written post.


It is also a classic and obvious example of a logical fallacy.


Break it down for us, DrummingEdge.

For my own part, I do find a few off-kilter bits here that relate to some of the previous elements of the discussion:

SomberSymphony wrote:
Norwegian black metal was built upon the hatred of Christianity, thus the lyrics are heavily anti-Christian and pro-Satan, even though none of the black metallers were Satanic.


This sits a little strangely with me, in light of what some people were saying previously about how an artistic movement is defined by the ideas of its creators. Here we have a group of people propounding anti-Christian/heavily Satanic themes in their lyrical content (and arguably in the sound, as well) and yet none of them, in their lives outside of art, really believe in the credo they supposedly endorse? Does that render the validity of basing the movement's identity on the thoughts of its creators null?

To that point, I would mention that in multiple interviews Ihsahn has discussed his personal Satanism, which is most definitely a real belief system, though one divorced entirely from anti-Christian reactionary devil-worship. This type of Satanism is what I personally see at the core of black metal, and it also happens to be one that allows for a much broader set of possible themes, while still being very much anti-Christian.

SomberSymphony wrote:
So if you think of black metal as darkness and sorrow, Christian black metal exists. If you think of black metal as anti-Christian darkness and sorrow, then just call it sorrow metal instead of something stupid like "white metal" or "unblack metal".


The problem with this is that black metal can be (and usually is) about more than darkness and sorrow. You could apply darkness and sorrow to a lot of different metal genres. Which would tend to render the term "black metal" abitrary and vague...maybe even moreso than "white metal." Plus, what if your sorrow metal doesn't have sorrowful lyrical themes? Oh no! More sub-categories are needed. Joyful sorrow metal.

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SomberSymphony
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:42 pm
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 7:12 pm 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:

This sits a little strangely with me, in light of what some people were saying previously about how an artistic movement is defined by the ideas of its creators. Here we have a group of people propounding anti-Christian/heavily Satanic themes in their lyrical content (and arguably in the sound, as well) and yet none of them, in their lives outside of art, really believe in the credo they supposedly endorse? Does that render the validity of basing the movement's identity on the thoughts of its creators null?

To that point, I would mention that in multiple interviews Ihsahn has discussed his personal Satanism, which is most definitely a real belief system, though one divorced entirely from anti-Christian reactionary devil-worship. This type of Satanism is what I personally see at the core of black metal, and it also happens to be one that allows for a much broader set of possible themes, while still being very much anti-Christian.

The problem with this is that black metal can be (and usually is) about more than darkness and sorrow. You could apply darkness and sorrow to a lot of different metal genres. Which would tend to render the term "black metal" abitrary and vague...maybe even moreso than "white metal." Plus, what if your sorrow metal doesn't have sorrowful lyrical themes? Oh no! More sub-categories are needed. Joyful sorrow metal.


Sorry, let me clarify. I shouldn't have said that Norwegian black metallers were lyrically Satanic. However, the image they created was one of darkness and evil [not that there's ANYTHING wrong with wanting to display this image, of course]. Whether or not they held to Satanism, and whether or not they were just being grossly satirical and sarcastic in light of the media opposition, a large amount of black metal is based on Satanic imagery. Inverted crosses, pentagrams, and goat skulls, to name a few. Some held onto Satanism, some didn't.

So back to my original point, basing genre solely off of the image doesn't allow for Christian black metal. Antestor and Slechtvalk all wore corpse paint, but never had pentagrams and inverted crosses, obviously because they're Christian. However, corpse paint helps have the grim mindset that black metal demands.


King_Hands, thanks man. I appreciate it. DrummingEdge, let me know how I screwed up, and I'll make sure not to do it again.
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DrummingEdge133
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:01 pm 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
Break it down for us, DrummingEdge.


It's so obvious I shouldn't have to, but whatever... I mean he makes it so obvious in the way he started out the post. However, type "false dilemma" into Wikipedia and you will clearly see what I mean.

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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:07 pm 
 

funeralbirth wrote:
And why are people so stuck up in applying this rule to Black metal and not other music forms? If a death metal band doesn't sing about death, gore or violence, no one says that it's not a real death metal band. And yet, when a black metal band is different, it causes this controversy. Unless people start applying this to different genres, and not just black metal, then i am resigned to my opinion.

It might help if you began comparing black metal to other artistic movements rather than other musical genres. Though analagous, death metal and black metal are different genres with different themes, philosophies, and standards. It's true they overlap heavily, but one should not be used as a measure for the other.

Also, your apple metaphor was clever but ill-conceived. For people like me, the argument--in apple terms--boils down to others trying to say red apples and green apples are exactly the same. It's true they are both kinds of apples, but even on the surface you can tell they are different.
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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:17 pm 
 

DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Under_Starmere wrote:
Break it down for us, DrummingEdge.


It's so obvious I shouldn't have to, but whatever... I mean he makes it so obvious in the way he started out the post. However, type "false dilemma" into Wikipedia and you will clearly see what I mean.

I see what you're getting at, but I don't think "false dilemma" necessarily applies here. Perhaps the two sides weren't described accurately, but I haven't noticed any more than two sides to the debate. Correct me if I'm wrong. In spite of a lot of modern drivel, sometimes things really are two-sided (it's within the realm of possibility, anyway).

Withholding information under the pretense that "it should be obvious" is pretty obnoxious, by the way. If there are other angles people aren't exploring, share them.
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DrummingEdge133
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:20 pm 
 

Cruciphage wrote:
DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Under_Starmere wrote:
Break it down for us, DrummingEdge.


It's so obvious I shouldn't have to, but whatever... I mean he makes it so obvious in the way he started out the post. However, type "false dilemma" into Wikipedia and you will clearly see what I mean.

I see what you're getting at, but I don't think "false dilemma" necessarily applies here. Perhaps the two sides weren't described accurately, but I haven't noticed any more than two sides to the debate. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, sometimes things really are two-sided.

Withholding information under the pretense that "it should be obvious" is pretty obnoxious, by the way.


Not at all is it obnoxious, read the definition. There is OBVIOUSLY a third option, which is the middle ground between his two choices... Of course it applies here...

"The presentation of a false choice often reflects a deliberate attempt to eliminate the middle ground on an issue" (Wikipedia).

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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:36 pm 
 

DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Cruciphage wrote:
DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Under_Starmere wrote:
Break it down for us, DrummingEdge.


It's so obvious I shouldn't have to, but whatever... I mean he makes it so obvious in the way he started out the post. However, type "false dilemma" into Wikipedia and you will clearly see what I mean.

I see what you're getting at, but I don't think "false dilemma" necessarily applies here. Perhaps the two sides weren't described accurately, but I haven't noticed any more than two sides to the debate. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, sometimes things really are two-sided.

Withholding information under the pretense that "it should be obvious" is pretty obnoxious, by the way.


Not at all is it obnoxious, read the definition. There is OBVIOUSLY a third option, which is the middle ground between his two choices... Of course it applies here...

"The presentation of a false choice often reflects a deliberate attempt to eliminate the middle ground on an issue" (Wikipedia).

Look, you're not a teacher and this is not a classroom. If you have a point about the discussion, explain it. All you're doing is discussing rhetorical theory, which this thread isn't about.

Sorry if I'm being daft, but on this forum there's too much pointing out of logical fallacies without explanation. It's like noticing that a building is on fire and then not calling the fire department. All it leads to is bitchfights and pointless tangents.

Call me thick, but I don't agree with the notion that there is always a middle ground. What is the middle ground here?
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BloodandDope
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:39 pm 
 

Defining Black Metal by both the lyrics and the sound and how they create an atmosphere of darkness, misanthropy, and hate and other "dark" emotions.

Having Christian lyrics most definitely ruins the atmopshere and the aesthetic of black metal.

Theres your middle ground.
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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:51 pm 
 

BloodandDope wrote:
Defining Black Metal by both the lyrics and the sound and how they create an atmosphere of darkness, misanthropy, and hate and other "dark" emotions.

Having Christian lyrics most definitely ruins the atmopshere and the aesthetic of black metal.

Theres your middle ground.

?

Unless I've completely misinterpreted the nature of the debate--that is, whether Christian bands playing in the musical style of black metal should be included in that genre--then that sounds like only one side.
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DrummingEdge133
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:57 pm 
 

Cruciphage wrote:
BloodandDope wrote:
Defining Black Metal by both the lyrics and the sound and how they create an atmosphere of darkness, misanthropy, and hate and other "dark" emotions.

Having Christian lyrics most definitely ruins the atmopshere and the aesthetic of black metal.

Theres your middle ground.

?

Unless I've completely misinterpreted the nature of the debate--that is, whether Christian bands playing in the musical style of black metal should be included in that genre--then that sounds like only one side.


I wouldn't call a Lady Gaga song with satanic lyrics black metal, the same way I wouldn't call a Christian band parodying the style of the black metal sound black metal. Both lyrics and sound are important in black metal to me and a lot of other black metal fans.

I don't know if I can spell it out anymore than I have now. Sorry that I didn't initially, I agree that it would have saved a lot of confusion. I guess I just expected that people would be able to think about it and figure it out with a little effort.

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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:05 pm 
 

DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Cruciphage wrote:
BloodandDope wrote:
Defining Black Metal by both the lyrics and the sound and how they create an atmosphere of darkness, misanthropy, and hate and other "dark" emotions.

Having Christian lyrics most definitely ruins the atmopshere and the aesthetic of black metal.

Theres your middle ground.

?

Unless I've completely misinterpreted the nature of the debate--that is, whether Christian bands playing in the musical style of black metal should be included in that genre--then that sounds like only one side.


I wouldn't call a Lady Gaga song with satanic lyrics black metal, the same way I wouldn't call a Christian band parodying the style of the black metal sound black metal. Both lyrics and sound are important in black metal to me and a lot of other black metal fans.

I don't know if I can spell it out anymore than I have now. Sorry that I didn't initially, I agree that it would have saved a lot of confusion. I guess I just expected that people would be able to think about it and figure it out with a little effort.

Thank you, but I just don't see how that's a middle ground. That's exactly what me, Abominatrix, and several others have been trying to explain to the inclusiveness-happy bunch on the other end.

Maybe it's just because I've been awake since 7:00 AM yesterday. Shoot me.
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Under_Starmere
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:05 pm 
 

DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Cruciphage wrote:
BloodandDope wrote:
Defining Black Metal by both the lyrics and the sound and how they create an atmosphere of darkness, misanthropy, and hate and other "dark" emotions.

Having Christian lyrics most definitely ruins the atmopshere and the aesthetic of black metal.

Theres your middle ground.

?

Unless I've completely misinterpreted the nature of the debate--that is, whether Christian bands playing in the musical style of black metal should be included in that genre--then that sounds like only one side.


I wouldn't call a Lady Gaga song with satanic lyrics black metal, the same way I wouldn't call a Christian band parodying the style of the black metal sound black metal. Both lyrics and sound are important in black metal to me and a lot of other black metal fans.

I don't know if I can spell it out anymore than I have now. Sorry that I didn't initially, I agree that it would have saved a lot of confusion. I guess I just expected that people would be able to think about it and figure it out with a little effort.


True enough... I was actually going to bring up something related to your point earlier but forgot. And yes, it would've clarified things to just lay it out, as there were several things in that post that were a bit confusing and I wasn't sure to which part you were even referring.

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DrummingEdge133
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:11 pm 
 

Cruciphage wrote:
DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Cruciphage wrote:
BloodandDope wrote:
Defining Black Metal by both the lyrics and the sound and how they create an atmosphere of darkness, misanthropy, and hate and other "dark" emotions.

Having Christian lyrics most definitely ruins the atmopshere and the aesthetic of black metal.

Theres your middle ground.

?

Unless I've completely misinterpreted the nature of the debate--that is, whether Christian bands playing in the musical style of black metal should be included in that genre--then that sounds like only one side.


I wouldn't call a Lady Gaga song with satanic lyrics black metal, the same way I wouldn't call a Christian band parodying the style of the black metal sound black metal. Both lyrics and sound are important in black metal to me and a lot of other black metal fans.

I don't know if I can spell it out anymore than I have now. Sorry that I didn't initially, I agree that it would have saved a lot of confusion. I guess I just expected that people would be able to think about it and figure it out with a little effort.

Thank you, but I just don't see how that's a middle ground. That's exactly what me, Abominatrix, and several others have been trying to explain to the inclusiveness-happy bunch on the other end.

Maybe it's just because I've been awake since 7:00 AM yesterday. Shoot me.


SomberSymphony wrote:
1.) Some people believe music is defined by the sound.
2.) Some people believe music is defined by the lyrics.

The Middle Ground:
1.5) Some people believe music is defined by both sound and lyrics into one whole... which to me makes black metal. Not one or the other... but the combination of BOTH. That is very obviously a middle ground between his two options, is it not?

This is another way of putting what I just said about Lady Gaga...etc.

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EntilZha
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:14 pm 
 

People in this thread focus too much on lyrics and too little on delivery. It's not that christian lyrics are incompatible with some ominous genre rules like NightmareLake would have you believe, it's more about an incongruence in emotional delivery and content. Just imagine a song like Darkthrone's "Under A Funeral Moon" with lyrics about turning the other cheek. The emotional delivery of the songs does not match up with the subject matter.
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CrushedRevelation
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:27 pm 
 

EntilZha wrote:
People in this thread focus too much on lyrics and too little on delivery. It's not that christian lyrics are incompatible with some ominous genre rules like NightmareLake would have you believe, it's more about an incongruence in emotional delivery and content. Just imagine a song like Darkthrone's "Under A Funeral Moon" with lyrics about turning the other cheek. The emotional delivery of the songs does not match up with the subject matter.


Correct. The very fundaments of Black Metal alone (ie rage, hatred, intolerance etc) are geared towards an aggressive delivery and tone, coming from the basest of human emotions - one which would be in direct opposition to those upholding "unblack" or "white" virtues. Correct me if I am mistaken, but my belief of those purveyors of such values should find this far beneath their enlightened selves to engage in. To do so would be hypocritical, almost a blasphemy. It would also have no impact, no matter how raw or well written etc - it would feel false.
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Under_Starmere
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:35 pm 
 

EntilZha wrote:
People in this thread focus too much on lyrics and too little on delivery. It's not that christian lyrics are incompatible with some ominous genre rules like NightmareLake would have you believe, it's more about an incongruence in emotional delivery and content. Just imagine a song like Darkthrone's "Under A Funeral Moon" with lyrics about turning the other cheek. The emotional delivery of the songs does not match up with the subject matter.


Necro-screamed recountings of Christ washing people's feet.

But there's so much wretched slaughter and lurking horror to plumb, on the flip side! Genocide, apocalypse, blood guilt, draconian punishment, merciless destruction... it's all there.

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:25 am 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
EntilZha wrote:
People in this thread focus too much on lyrics and too little on delivery. It's not that christian lyrics are incompatible with some ominous genre rules like NightmareLake would have you believe, it's more about an incongruence in emotional delivery and content. Just imagine a song like Darkthrone's "Under A Funeral Moon" with lyrics about turning the other cheek. The emotional delivery of the songs does not match up with the subject matter.


Necro-screamed recountings of Christ washing people's feet.

But there's so much wretched slaughter and lurking horror to plumb, on the flip side! Genocide, apocalypse, blood guilt, draconian punishment, merciless destruction... it's all there.


It's all there, but are you a christian if you really venerate these things? I certainly agree that the notion of hateful christian crusaders isn't anything new, but it seems like a twisted version of the message Jesus attempted to convey, and ultimately more the product of blind herd mentality and xenophobic bloodlust than supposed christian teachings. Ultimately, you could spread this kind of perversion around; everybody knows there are enough militant religious folks around to actually take to it. Wasn't there some jokey band a while ago that claimed to be "jihad black metal"?
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Under_Starmere
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:49 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
Under_Starmere wrote:
EntilZha wrote:
People in this thread focus too much on lyrics and too little on delivery. It's not that christian lyrics are incompatible with some ominous genre rules like NightmareLake would have you believe, it's more about an incongruence in emotional delivery and content. Just imagine a song like Darkthrone's "Under A Funeral Moon" with lyrics about turning the other cheek. The emotional delivery of the songs does not match up with the subject matter.


Necro-screamed recountings of Christ washing people's feet.

But there's so much wretched slaughter and lurking horror to plumb, on the flip side! Genocide, apocalypse, blood guilt, draconian punishment, merciless destruction... it's all there.


It's all there, but are you a christian if you really venerate these things? I certainly agree that the notion of hateful christian crusaders isn't anything new, but it seems like a twisted version of the message Jesus attempted to convey, and ultimately more the product of blind herd mentality and xenophobic bloodlust than supposed christian teachings. Ultimately, you could spread this kind of perversion around; everybody knows there are enough militant religious folks around to actually take to it. Wasn't there some jokey band a while ago that claimed to be "jihad black metal"?


Hehe.. ehhhhh.... no I totally agree with you. The irony is inherent. And the hypocrisy is not without its thousands of years of perpetration. Though with people talking about how black metal is all about evil and intolerance, I don't see how this sort of thing would be out of place at all. The spewings of a hateful mind. The devil working in mysterious (or not so mysterious) ways. Still, that's far away from my own idea of what black metal is "all about." Let's just not forget that Christianity, for all its messages of light, is also rife with dark and bloody-minded elements. Through Christian eyes, the world of humanity is a sick, tormented hellscape, far more than in the pagan view, and Christian music that reflects that could at least be respected for not wallowing in denial of that.

Christians with intense spiritual convictions and emotions that also happen to be musicians are in a bit of a bind here. Aesthetics transmitting a feeling of intensity usually tend to be predictably dark, chaotic and aggressive, because we as physical creatures respond viscerally to that sort of thing, while an aesthetic for an intense portrayal of feelings of light or rapture is far more difficult to capture. In this I can't blame Christians who want to paint an intense picture of their faith for coveting and admiring the sense of spiritual power and intensity suffused in the best metal. I just think they need to think about it more and develop a new sonic vocabulary for the particular perspective they want to express. Christian lore is full of epic visionary states and grandiose soul-journeys... I think all that could make for some excellent metal, if an original aesthetic for it could be developed.

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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:24 pm 
 

DrummingEdge133 wrote:
SomberSymphony wrote:
1.) Some people believe music is defined by the sound.
2.) Some people believe music is defined by the lyrics.

The Middle Ground:
1.5) Some people believe music is defined by both sound and lyrics into one whole... which to me makes black metal. Not one or the other... but the combination of BOTH. That is very obviously a middle ground between his two options, is it not?

This is another way of putting what I just said about Lady Gaga...etc.

I realized this while I was at work today, after actually getting some sleep, that you were referring specifically to his dichotomy. My apologies for being a twit.
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Geshy
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:32 pm 
 

I honestly don't see why unblack, or white metal, should be unaccepted. The Bible was pretty brutal. You could write goregrind songs about some of the crazy shit that happened. Also, the brutality of it is what turned the main character of A Clockwork Orange onto Christianity.

Also, the movie Dogma makes a very good tongue-in-cheek point about the brutality of the Christian symbol itself:

Image
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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:39 pm 
 

CrushedRevelation wrote:
EntilZha wrote:
People in this thread focus too much on lyrics and too little on delivery. It's not that christian lyrics are incompatible with some ominous genre rules like NightmareLake would have you believe, it's more about an incongruence in emotional delivery and content. Just imagine a song like Darkthrone's "Under A Funeral Moon" with lyrics about turning the other cheek. The emotional delivery of the songs does not match up with the subject matter.


Correct. The very fundaments of Black Metal alone (ie rage, hatred, intolerance etc) are geared towards an aggressive delivery and tone, coming from the basest of human emotions - one which would be in direct opposition to those upholding "unblack" or "white" virtues. Correct me if I am mistaken, but my belief of those purveyors of such values should find this far beneath their enlightened selves to engage in. To do so would be hypocritical, almost a blasphemy. It would also have no impact, no matter how raw or well written etc - it would feel false.

Well, the qualities listed aren't exactly peculiar to black metal, but this is a very good point to mention all the same. Christian death metal is equally ill-conceived for many of the same reasons "Christian black" metal is an exercise in philosophical failure. It's yet another integral aspect which makes black metal the unique genre it is.
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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:10 pm 
 

Geshy wrote:
I honestly don't see why unblack, or white metal, should be unaccepted. The Bible was pretty brutal. You could write goregrind songs about some of the crazy shit that happened. Also, the brutality of it is what turned the main character of A Clockwork Orange onto Christianity.

Either you haven't read the whole thread or you're being willfully ignorant.

Other than the death worship of Christ's impaled effigy and the cannibalistic doctrine of eating his body and drinking his blood, Christianity is not a brutal religion by design. It was and is the fanaticism of insecure hypocrites which has made it that way in practice.

As unreliable as it is, the Bible is an attempt at a historical text as well as a religious one. The presence of bloody and horrific events in the "good" book doesn't necessarily reflect religious doctrine. If you're referring mainly to the Old Testament, remember that Christians decided to lighten God up a bit in their writings.
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Under_Starmere
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:50 pm 
 

Cruciphage wrote:
Geshy wrote:
I honestly don't see why unblack, or white metal, should be unaccepted. The Bible was pretty brutal. You could write goregrind songs about some of the crazy shit that happened. Also, the brutality of it is what turned the main character of A Clockwork Orange onto Christianity.

Either you haven't read the whole thread or you're being willfully ignorant.

Other than the death worship of Christ's impaled effigy and the cannibalistic doctrine of eating his body and drinking his blood, Christianity is not a brutal religion by design. It was and is the fanaticism of insecure hypocrites which has made it that way in practice.

As unreliable as it is, the Bible is an attempt at a historical text as well as a religious one. The presence of bloody and horrific events in the "good" book doesn't necessarily reflect religious doctrine. If you're referring mainly to the Old Testament, remember that Christians decided to lighten God up a bit in their writings.


I'm no Christian historian, but I disagree with you on a few points here. Yes, the Christian conception of God is that of a savior and redeemer, and yes, Christ's purported message was one of pacifism and love. But while Christianity is perhaps not a brutal religion by design, it does revolve entirely around a good cop/bad cop blueprint. Essentially it declares: love unconditionally, lay your allegiance at the feet of a loving God, OR ELSE. Behind the diaphanous promise of enlightenment and heaven lies the eternal, sadistic prison of Hell - the ultimate punishment promised to they who choose an alternative path. Who created that prison? Here we have another false dichotomy (one far more serious and wide-reaching than whether or not we judge black metal by its lyrics or by its sound :)) that has completely moulded the shape of global civilization, sometimes for good, sometimes in the form of repulsive and needless holocaust.

I don't think Christianity was designed to be harmful, but the spectre of fear it raised in the minds of so many generations just opened the door that much wider for the devil.

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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:27 pm 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
I'm no Christian historian, but I disagree with you on a few points here. Yes, the Christian conception of God is that of a savior and redeemer, and yes, Christ's purported message was one of pacifism and love. But while Christianity is perhaps not a brutal religion by design, it does revolve entirely around a good cop/bad cop blueprint. Essentially it declares: love unconditionally, lay your allegiance at the feet of a loving God, OR ELSE. Behind the diaphanous promise of enlightenment and heaven lies the eternal, sadistic prison of Hell - the ultimate punishment promised to they who choose an alternative path. Who created that prison? Here we have another false dichotomy (one far more serious and wide-reaching than whether or not we judge black metal by its lyrics or by its sound :)) that has completely moulded the shape of global civilization, sometimes for good, sometimes in the form of repulsive and needless holocaust.

I don't think Christianity was designed to be harmful, but the spectre of fear it raised in the minds of so many generations just opened the door that much wider for the devil.

Perhaps my word choice was wrong. I agree with you that in many ways it is a brutal and severe religion (try telling that to a Christian, though!), but these things I feel are, at best, glossed over extensively and, at worst, simply not discussed. It was designed to be a good and loving way of life, but even in the early days it was a far cry from what "Christ" supposedly had in mind. As I said, it's the fanatical, insecure types who mostly ruined it. Like Communism, it was yet another good idea completely spoiled by zealots and opportunists. Oh yes, and idiots who don't understand the historical precedent for notions such as "Obey your masters unquestioningly."

It's a highly ironic religion in that it's supposed to uplift you while it shackles you to guilt and shame. In fact, I've never encountered another religion which is so focused on making you feel guilty simply for being alive.
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kampfplatz666
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:58 pm 
 

Cruciphage wrote:
It's a highly ironic religion in that it's supposed to uplift you while it shackles you to guilt and shame. In fact, I've never encountered another religion which is so focused on making you feel guilty simply for being alive.

Maybe you should check this out:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16201730/Walt ... s-Religion
Or here:
http://www.kollectiv.co.uk/Capitalism%20As%20Cult.html
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Geshy
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 11:34 pm 
 

I admit I haven't read the ENTIRE thread but I'm just saying. Also, God has done things that can be considered brutal in a different sense of the word, like drowning most of the world, and fucking Job's life up just because Satan was egging him on (more or less, it's been a while since I've read it but that's my interpretation.) A large part of it's brutality is in the action's of it's fervent followers though. Burning witches at stakes, war (which, needless to say, is rife with brutality), etc.

Also, Islam obviously has very radical followers, even though essentially it's just a different side of the same coin. Other than Mohammed, Jesus was the most quoted prophet in the Q'uran.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 11:46 pm 
 

That whole "oh the bible was BRUTAL so it fits metal" argument is so retarded. Can you possibly take it out of context any more? I mean I know those things are in there but...seriously, it's a stupid argument. Christianity as a religion is still one that is opposite to the values of metal, for better or for worse, and metal was founded on the kind of rebelliousness against the conformity that religion and other things of that nature bring. I'm not even saying you can't have Christian themes in metal, even if I personally don't agree with them. But don't try to justify it by trying to make it look more 'metal' than it really is.
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Geshy
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:08 am 
 

Honestly I just wanted an excuse to post the "buddy christ" picture :lol: My argument was more or less tongue-in-cheek.

Carry on.
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Winterkald
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 4:24 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
That whole "oh the bible was BRUTAL so it fits metal" argument is so retarded. Can you possibly take it out of context any more? I mean I know those things are in there but...seriously, it's a stupid argument. Christianity as a religion is still one that is opposite to the values of metal, for better or for worse, and metal was founded on the kind of rebelliousness against the conformity that religion and other things of that nature bring. I'm not even saying you can't have Christian themes in metal, even if I personally don't agree with them. But don't try to justify it by trying to make it look more 'metal' than it really is.


I highly agree with this. And also, this thread has a focus on black metal, not metal in general. Which makes the whole brutality argument even more dumb.
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Snarf
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 11:41 am 
 

To all the people who say that Christians have no place in black metal... fine.

You say that Christians can attempt to mimic the black metal sound, but can never create true black metal.

That's why there's a separate genre, however stupid you want to think it is. Unblack metal is a term for Christian bands who play in the black metal style.

There are no Christians in black metal. Only Christians, playing in a largely black metal style, calling themselves unblack metal.

What's the problem?

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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 11:54 am 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
Under_Starmere wrote:
EntilZha wrote:
People in this thread focus too much on lyrics and too little on delivery. It's not that christian lyrics are incompatible with some ominous genre rules like NightmareLake would have you believe, it's more about an incongruence in emotional delivery and content. Just imagine a song like Darkthrone's "Under A Funeral Moon" with lyrics about turning the other cheek. The emotional delivery of the songs does not match up with the subject matter.


Necro-screamed recountings of Christ washing people's feet.

But there's so much wretched slaughter and lurking horror to plumb, on the flip side! Genocide, apocalypse, blood guilt, draconian punishment, merciless destruction... it's all there.


It's all there, but are you a christian if you really venerate these things? I certainly agree that the notion of hateful christian crusaders isn't anything new, but it seems like a twisted version of the message Jesus attempted to convey, and ultimately more the product of blind herd mentality and xenophobic bloodlust than supposed christian teachings. Ultimately, you could spread this kind of perversion around; everybody knows there are enough militant religious folks around to actually take to it. Wasn't there some jokey band a while ago that claimed to be "jihad black metal"?


"I have not come to bring peace, but a sword". (Matthew 10:34)

Not to be spliting hairs, but if you look at the early 2nd wave, many adherents actually did carry out the stuff in their lyrics (Church Burnings, suicide, assault, murder, et cetera), so I'm not really sure where this "militant groups around to actually take to it" comes into play if this is asserted in regards to religious people alone. I am not currently aware of any fans of Unblack Metal bands going out and attacking people with tatoos of the runes or pentacle pendants on (doesn't mean that it does not occur).

Many of the Christian bands in the death metal scene utilize the apocalpytic side of the New Testament for purposes of storytelling, not so much for the "I'm going to do A or B", and I think the same would generally hold true with unblack metal groups trying to focus on the violent aspects of scripture. One thing is clear if you take all of the NT into account, and it is that while Christians are specifically commanded to behave a certain way, there is a lot of talk about the destruction of wicked peoples and a final conflict specifically noted in Revelation.

And for the record, I'm not really advocating that anyone need consider unblack metal to be synonymous with black metal, because ideologically they are as separate as you can get. I'm just throwing out some facts about Christian belief that is compatible with extreme styles of metal.
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Delduwath
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 3:01 pm 
 

I haven't read all of this thread, so forgive me if I'm addressing a point which has already been settled. I'm not trying to trot out an old argument that has little relevance to the subject at hand.

I'm somewhat confused by the idea put forth by some in the first two pages of this thread that black metal was, in origin, defined by certain characteristics and therefore must stay true to those characteristics. If anything, asserting that a genre must adhere to a certain set of rules seems in direct opposition with certain ideologies prevalent and ubiquitous throughout all of black metal; insofar as I'm concerned, the ideology being betrayed by such rigid assertions is individualism.

In disallowing any deviance from a prescribed "formula" of components that is necessary to create black metal as it was defined by the rather arbitrary standards of a set of individuals more than 20 years ago, it would seem to me that the genre is indeed dead at worst and stagnant at best. Certainly, we can all agree that there are boundaries to genres, and that those boundaries can broadly define what it is the separates the genre from or otherwise renders it identifiable in contrast to playing other styles of music. However, I think it's important to recognize the need for dynamic movement of those boundaries and in the expansion of the horizons for the genre as a whole. It appears to me that the hardening of those boundaries in attempts to define or otherwise make impermeable the boundaries of black metal, there is limited space for growth, and puts the definitions set forth by those who had the good fortune of being in the right place at the right time with like-minded associations surrounding them on a pedestal. In turn, black metal begins to have its own "altar" to worship at, and its own set of "scriptures" by which one must follow if one wishes to be a part of the black metal scene. Therefore, in rigidly defining what black metal is (and is not) based upon the testimony of a handful of individuals, black metal betrays that very same definition those individuals issued forth.

That said, I don't like unblack metal for its connections to Christianity in general. I am not fond of many tenets of Christianity as a whole, and am especially not fond of its call to fall in line and bow before a certain set of rules. Black metal, for me, has an aim (though it may not be its sole aim) in encouraging one to create his or her own principles to follow, or to follow no principles at all should one choose to do so. I don't believe in idols and therefore put no more stock into the declarations and beliefs of Euronymous or Varg or any other celebrated black metaller than I do anyone that is relatively knowledgeable in the genre's works.

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Putting black metal on a pedestal as a rigidly-defined genre seems counterproductive to the movement's individualistic slant.

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DocNoc
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 4:22 pm 
 

DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Abominatrix wrote:
Yes, and I'm not sure why this is so difficult for some folks, who adopt a pompous demeanour about how this is "Just music", as if we should engage with art in precisely the same surface-scratching manner that they do, to comprehend. It's not as if precedent in music was invented with black metal. If you heard something that sounded like Gregorian chant or bore the cadences of church hymns, yet discovered that what you were listening to was actually singing the praises of Satan and speaking about disemboweling infants, they wouldn't be Gregorian chants or church hymns, would they? They would be parodies...a novelty, at best, and an obscene blasphemy at worst.


This is kind of what I said, except without the fantastic analogy of the Gregorian chants. I've always felt this way about unblack metal, as if they are trying to mock black metal, just as it would be a mocking of Gregorian chats if using satanic lyrics and themes. I don't want to support bands trying to mock black metal.

Also, as for the death metal thing not focusing on gore, correct me if I'm wrong, but death metal was never founded on gore lyrics as a core fundamental part of its art. Does Morbid Angel have vocals about cutting off heads and raping dead bodies? I don't know, I haven't studied their lyrics that closely, but judging by the lyrical themes, it doesn't appear to be the case. Same with Napalm Death, they don't really have gore lyrics at all. Same with Possessed, they are more akin to black metal lyrical themes than gore. I guess my point is, death metal was much more varied in lyrical themes to begin with and gore lyrics were just one approach to death metal.


This I find amusing. Most black metal bands, you could say, thrive on insulting christianity but hate it when they themselves are mocked.
Honestly I think this more a problem that the fans have rather than the bands themselves, who for the most part, don't really care about christians playing black metal (ironically CBM is way more underground than the supposed "true" black metal bands).

Personally I am indifferent towards CBM and for the record art can be interpreted in many different ways, that's why it's called art. It's kinda like saying that how you interpret a poem wrong because you not giving the same answer as everyone else.

There was an article about CBM and BM in an old issue of Zero Tolerance magazine (it had interviews with Watain, Abigor and Horde from what I can remember).
Anyway, well Erik Danielson anywho, put it as "I worship my god and they worship theirs" (or something like that).

Also to quote Alice Cooper "The devil does not play in a rock 'n' roll band. The devil is the best car salesman".
I've always liked that quote.

Edit: fixed my n00bed up BBCode

Edit 2: +1 for what the dude above me put.

Edit 3: My writing articulation is not great today (is it ever o_O) I have had close to no sleep and am having trouble thinking straight, however I do think I managed to at least get the basis of what I wanted to put.
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FrigidGround
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 4:44 pm 
 

Kind of relevant: the mini-documentary "Light in Darkness: Nemesis Divina" is now available for viewing on youtube. It does seem rather low-budget and has some unintentionally funny parts (the youtube comments), but as someone who is familiar with the scene and met about half the people interviewed, it's rather interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPOaxWjF ... re=related

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ELAN
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:52 pm 
 

I rarely ever even go on these boards due to the immature and pointless fighting that seems to plague it, but I figure I will just weigh in on my opinions here, as someone familiar with the majority of the 'unblack' scene.

First off... black metal was not just begat by people who decided to invent an anti-Christian genre. For those crediting Venom for supposedly doing so, Cronos-erm... CONRAD himself refuted this in interviews I have read.
If so, then try filtering out all of the satanic or anti-Christian bands on the archives. You are still left with legions of legitimately-named black metal artists who have influenced the genre and made a name for themselves as black metal artists in most every trusted eye.

Now, here we come to the Christian bands themselves. Every band has its own agenda. Horde was anti-Satanism, yes, as many of the Christian bands still are, but there are many others with a completely different approach. Reverence of nature, romanticism, and other things that are still noteworthy in most 'secular' black metal circles are still prevalent in their music as well. It really depends on the band, as it does with every band of every style of music. Should the Blues Brothers movies be forced to change their name due to Akroyd and Belushi not being black? Whatever. Black, unblack, whatever.... these bands are playing what they play, so take them as face value. If bands like Enbilulugugal and Striborg can be considered black metal and Christian bands like Evroklidon and Admonish not be, then call me Miles Davis.

Now one thing I have noticed about black metal, as well as much of metal in general, is its opposition toward a 'herd mentality'. Not many of you could argue with that. However, consider this... no matter what you think of Christians playing black metal, think about the fact that any Christian going into this will know that about 80 percent of black metal fans and artists, including their musical influences, will hate their very existences. Yet they still do what they do. All the while, legions of black metal bands have started as kiss-ass bands to, say, Darkthrone or Beherit, or whomever else, singing about Satanic or anti-Christian lyrics just because it was 'the thing to do'. In that sense, who are the herd or sheep in this aspect? These people also get persecuted from their Christian contemporaries for even associating with the metal scene, so they must have damn good reasoning and motivation for even doing this in the first place. I don't think that a response to this saying 'well that's because they're stupid, dur dur' could properly explain every single band even if one of them were.

The way I personally see it, is that the original black metal scene have mostly died. Some bands still pay tribute to it and try to keep the flame burning, and do a wonderful job, but quite frankly, the scene has moved on. What was once a coinciental genre beginning from a bunch of rebellious Norwegian teenagers has now been a very appropriately-revered, and overtly-reproduced phenomenon. Darkthrone, Satyricon, Ulver, Immortal, Emperor, ALL of those bands have progressed, ideologically AND musically... even Mayhem. That being said, Christian black metal musicians should not have much to actually worry about in this sense, because the scene has spread wide enough open to incorporate new ideas. GET OVER IT, just because you got into black metal after the 90s and missed the boat does not mean that you can't enjoy or respect what it began as, but it DOES mean that you do not live in the same subculture, times, or expectations anymore.

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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:37 pm 
 

The argument boils down to genre classification, which has standards. If there aren't qualities which make things fit into categories then there is no point in classifying anything, which humans do simply for ease of reference. It's really not a big deal, which is why it's odd that people keep insisting--often heatedly--on shoehorning Christian bands into the black metal genre. It's silly and makes no sense. These are the people who need to get over it.
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DocNoc
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:06 am 
 

ELAN wrote:
I rarely ever even go on these boards due to the immature and pointless fighting that seems to plague it, but I figure I will just weigh in on my opinions here, as someone familiar with the majority of the 'unblack' scene.

First off... black metal was not just begat by people who decided to invent an anti-Christian genre. For those crediting Venom for supposedly doing so, Cronos-erm... CONRAD himself refuted this in interviews I have read.
If so, then try filtering out all of the satanic or anti-Christian bands on the archives. You are still left with legions of legitimately-named black metal artists who have influenced the genre and made a name for themselves as black metal artists in most every trusted eye.

Now, here we come to the Christian bands themselves. Every band has its own agenda. Horde was anti-Satanism, yes, as many of the Christian bands still are, but there are many others with a completely different approach. Reverence of nature, romanticism, and other things that are still noteworthy in most 'secular' black metal circles are still prevalent in their music as well. It really depends on the band, as it does with every band of every style of music. Should the Blues Brothers movies be forced to change their name due to Akroyd and Belushi not being black? Whatever. Black, unblack, whatever.... these bands are playing what they play, so take them as face value. If bands like Enbilulugugal and Striborg can be considered black metal and Christian bands like Evroklidon and Admonish not be, then call me Miles Davis.

Now one thing I have noticed about black metal, as well as much of metal in general, is its opposition toward a 'herd mentality'. Not many of you could argue with that. However, consider this... no matter what you think of Christians playing black metal, think about the fact that any Christian going into this will know that about 80 percent of black metal fans and artists, including their musical influences, will hate their very existences. Yet they still do what they do. All the while, legions of black metal bands have started as kiss-ass bands to, say, Darkthrone or Beherit, or whomever else, singing about Satanic or anti-Christian lyrics just because it was 'the thing to do'. In that sense, who are the herd or sheep in this aspect? These people also get persecuted from their Christian contemporaries for even associating with the metal scene, so they must have damn good reasoning and motivation for even doing this in the first place. I don't think that a response to this saying 'well that's because they're stupid, dur dur' could properly explain every single band even if one of them were.

The way I personally see it, is that the original black metal scene have mostly died. Some bands still pay tribute to it and try to keep the flame burning, and do a wonderful job, but quite frankly, the scene has moved on. What was once a coinciental genre beginning from a bunch of rebellious Norwegian teenagers has now been a very appropriately-revered, and overtly-reproduced phenomenon. Darkthrone, Satyricon, Ulver, Immortal, Emperor, ALL of those bands have progressed, ideologically AND musically... even Mayhem. That being said, Christian black metal musicians should not have much to actually worry about in this sense, because the scene has spread wide enough open to incorporate new ideas. GET OVER IT, just because you got into black metal after the 90s and missed the boat does not mean that you can't enjoy or respect what it began as, but it DOES mean that you do not live in the same subculture, times, or expectations anymore.


This is the most articulate post I've read in this thread and, more or less, is what I am thinking about this subject.
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