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NightmareLake
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 pm
Posts: 263
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 4:35 pm 
 

MaDTransilvanian wrote:
Maybe people can, you know, separate a man's work and his personal beliefs? Glorifying his realizations as a musician doesn't imply accepting his religious views for oneself or losing respect for his musical output because of those views.
My comment was directed at those with the attitude of "christians have no place in metal". So metal is limited to who can be involved with it? There are rules onbe must follow to be "in" metal? To me that sounds about as closed minded and idiotic than any religion. The hypocrisy within the metal scene in hilarious and laughable. No wonder alot of people cant take it seriously.

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MaDTransilvanian
Caravan Beyond Redemption

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:56 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 4:38 pm 
 

NightmareLake wrote:
MaDTransilvanian wrote:
Maybe people can, you know, separate a man's work and his personal beliefs? Glorifying his realizations as a musician doesn't imply accepting his religious views for oneself or losing respect for his musical output because of those views.
My comment was directed at those with the attitude of "christians have no place in metal". So metal is limited to who can be involved with it? There are rules onbe must follow to be "in" metal? To me that sounds about as closed minded and idiotic than any religion. The hypocrisy within the metal scene in hilarious and laughable. No wonder alot of people cant take it seriously.


Ok, you won't get any arguments from me there. Personal beliefs should have no incidence on someone being an acceptable metalhead except in extreme cases.
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NightmareLake
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 4:42 pm 
 

MaDTransilvanian wrote:
NightmareLake wrote:
MaDTransilvanian wrote:
Maybe people can, you know, separate a man's work and his personal beliefs? Glorifying his realizations as a musician doesn't imply accepting his religious views for oneself or losing respect for his musical output because of those views.
My comment was directed at those with the attitude of "christians have no place in metal". So metal is limited to who can be involved with it? There are rules onbe must follow to be "in" metal? To me that sounds about as closed minded and idiotic than any religion. The hypocrisy within the metal scene in hilarious and laughable. No wonder alot of people cant take it seriously.


Ok, you won't get any arguments from me there. Personal beliefs should have no incidence on someone being an acceptable metalhead except in extreme cases.
I agree. Back when I got into metal you were accepted no matter who you were or what your background was. Those who think a person of a specific religion isn't "welcome" to be in the metal scene are poser themselves. I don't care if you are white, black, christian, catholic, satanist, buddist or whatever. If you enjoy metal then more power to you.

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andersbang
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:28 am
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Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 4:56 pm 
 

Very well said. Some of the stupidity and hypocrisy expressed in this thread is stupefying.
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MetalHeadNorm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 10:57 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:04 pm 
 

NightmareLake wrote:
MaDTransilvanian wrote:
NightmareLake wrote:
MaDTransilvanian wrote:
Maybe people can, you know, separate a man's work and his personal beliefs? Glorifying his realizations as a musician doesn't imply accepting his religious views for oneself or losing respect for his musical output because of those views.
My comment was directed at those with the attitude of "christians have no place in metal". So metal is limited to who can be involved with it? There are rules onbe must follow to be "in" metal? To me that sounds about as closed minded and idiotic than any religion. The hypocrisy within the metal scene in hilarious and laughable. No wonder alot of people cant take it seriously.


Ok, you won't get any arguments from me there. Personal beliefs should have no incidence on someone being an acceptable metalhead except in extreme cases.
I agree. Back when I got into metal you were accepted no matter who you were or what your background was. Those who think a person of a specific religion isn't "welcome" to be in the metal scene are poser themselves. I don't care if you are white, black, christian, catholic, satanist, buddist or whatever. If you enjoy metal then more power to you.


This is true. I thought this was common knowledge...
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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:11 pm 
 

I'm not going to look back over the entire thread, but I don't think hardly anyone was declaring that Christians aren't allowed in the metal scene so much as that Christianity was categorically denied a rightful place in black metal due to its ideological underpinnings. That said, I agree with you, it's pretty much come one, come all in my view... though it is pretty clear that if you try to insert an ideology into a musical culture that is historically aligned against that ideology, you're going to be dealing with some issues, and most people aren't going to be taking you seriously anytime soon.

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NightmareLake
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:24 pm 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
I'm not going to look back over the entire thread, but I don't think hardly anyone was declaring that Christians aren't allowed in the metal scene so much as that Christianity was categorically denied a rightful place in black metal due to its ideological underpinnings. That said, I agree with you, it's pretty much come one, come all in my view... though it is pretty clear that if you try to insert an ideology into a musical culture that is historically aligned against that ideology, you're going to be dealing with some issues, and most people aren't going to be taking you seriously anytime soon.
I doubt the majority feel that way, but there are those who have stated on this very forum that there is no place in metal for christians. I just don't get it. I'm not a christian, but I will defend a christians right to enjoy and perform in a metal band. If people disagree with it then they can simply ignore the christian related metal bands. As for black metal, christians can be full of hatred and write lyrics that reflect their hatred for whatever topics piss them off. I'm just of the opinion that the ones with the "no christians allowed in metal" attitude are childish and want so bad to be a part of something.

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Nightgaunt
I'll Swallow Your Soul

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:50 pm
Posts: 6240
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:24 pm 
 

Yes, I was wondering when the Enlightenment Brigade was going to show up, brandishing its totems and reading from its scrolls. Of all the posters in this thread, you whelps are easily the ones who are being most purely emotional and baldly assertive. The notion that metal can't be taken as being 'against' things is the pinnacle of absurdity, and your dismissal of your peers as "stupefyingly stupid" underscores this. One can (and people have) argue along the lines that religion and spirituality cannot or should not be taken as a viable filter, and the same is true of many other things (gender, sexual preference, political bent, etc.), but don't start trying to smother the discussion with this Disneyland "come one come all/everything has as much a place in metal as everything else" horseshit, because you clearly don't believe it any more than those who you so readily belittle.
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NightmareLake
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:27 pm 
 

Nightgaunt wrote:
Yes, I was wondering when the Enlightenment Brigade was going to show up, brandishing its totems and reading from its scrolls. Of all the posters in this thread, you whelps are easily the ones who are being most purely emotional and baldly assertive. The notion that metal can't be taken as being 'against' things is the pinnacle of absurdity, and your dismissal of your peers as "stupefyingly stupid" underscores this. One can (and people have) argue along the lines that religion and spirituality cannot or should not be taken as a viable filter, and the same is true of many other things (gender, sexual preference, political bent, etc.), but don't start trying to smother the discussion with this Disneyland "come one come all/everything has as much a place in metal as everything else" horseshit, because you clearly don't believe it any more than those who you so readily belittle.
Metal is music, simple as that. It's open and available for anyone to enjoy it. Those who think it's limited to a select few are themselves living in a fantasy world.

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Nightgaunt
I'll Swallow Your Soul

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:32 pm 
 

This discussion is a matter of "shoulds", not a matter of "cans." Hiding behind a statement of physical accident in no way supports (or hinders) the point that you wish to make, and your evaluative treatment of those who do not accept this point indicates that you are susceptible to the same patterns of behavior as they.
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Winterkald
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:32 pm 
 

I don't know where you read that Christians have no place in metal (I don't feel like scrolling through four pages for this post by someone). I only stated that Christians have no place in BLACK metal. I'm not going to explain why for the 5th time. Christians are accepted among other genres I guess.
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NightmareLake
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:37 pm 
 

Winterkald wrote:
I don't know where you read that Christians have no place in metal (I don't feel like scrolling through four pages for this post by someone). I only stated that Christians have no place in BLACK metal. I'm not going to explain why for the 5th time. Christians are accepted among other genres I guess.
Guess what? This very website is host to many christian black metal bands. Are you going to boycott the metal archives? Black metal is full of christians, you are just too wrapped up in your fantasy world of myths and dragons to see it. I know it feels good to be a part of something, that's why many people turn to religion, but like it or not the very music you love is indeed inhabited by christians. You will never change that, so get used to it.

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NightmareLake
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:38 pm 
 

Nightgaunt wrote:
This discussion is a matter of "shoulds", not a matter of "cans." Hiding behind a statement of physical accident in no way supports (or hinders) the point that you wish to make, and your evaluative treatment of those who do not accept this point indicates that you are susceptible to the same patterns of behavior as they.
You don't see the irony in your very own words?

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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:44 pm 
 

NightmareLake wrote:
I doubt the majority feel that way, but there are those who have stated on this very forum that there is no place in metal for christians. I just don't get it. I'm not a christian, but I will defend a christians right to enjoy and perform in a metal band. If people disagree with it then they can simply ignore the christian related metal bands. As for black metal, christians can be full of hatred and write lyrics that reflect their hatred for whatever topics piss them off. I'm just of the opinion that the ones with the "no christians allowed in metal" attitude are childish and want so bad to be a part of something.


Yeah, I mean the main point is to make some kick-ass metal. Whatever your ideology is, go right ahead... the people who are into what you do will enjoy it, those who aren't will decry it. This unblack metal situation is a slightly more complicated case just because of the ideological conflict particular to the genre. Christians can make whatever kind of metal they want, as far as I'm concerned, but it doesn't surprise me that people are taking exception to it in this case.

I do think it's kind of funny how seriously people are taking this. A few Christian artists trying to get in on the black metal scene doesn't really change anything, and for a genre spawned under an ideology of rebellion and blasphemy, you'd think black metal could withstand a little subversion. Satan's doing just fine, people. And besides, isn't the Prince of Lies supposed to fuck with you once in a while? ;)

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NightmareLake
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:48 pm 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
NightmareLake wrote:
I doubt the majority feel that way, but there are those who have stated on this very forum that there is no place in metal for christians. I just don't get it. I'm not a christian, but I will defend a christians right to enjoy and perform in a metal band. If people disagree with it then they can simply ignore the christian related metal bands. As for black metal, christians can be full of hatred and write lyrics that reflect their hatred for whatever topics piss them off. I'm just of the opinion that the ones with the "no christians allowed in metal" attitude are childish and want so bad to be a part of something.


Yeah, I mean the main point is to make some kick-ass metal. Whatever your ideology is, go right ahead... the people who are into what you do will enjoy it, those who aren't will decry it. This unblack metal situation is a slightly more complicated case just because of the ideological conflict particular to the genre. Christians can make whatever kind of metal they want, as far as I'm concerned, but it doesn't surprise me that people are taking exception to it in this case.

I do think it's kind of funny how seriously people are taking this. A few Christian artists trying to get in on the black metal scene doesn't really change anything, and for a genre spawned under an ideology of rebellion and blasphemy, you'd think black metal could withstand a little subversion. Satan's doing just fine, people. And besides, isn't the Prince of Lies supposed to fuck with you once in a while? ;)
I think people take black metal way too seriously. The people that are taking it so seriously are just as laughable as the christians they despise.

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Nightgaunt
I'll Swallow Your Soul

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:50 pm
Posts: 6240
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:51 pm 
 

Once again, you demonstrate, via your comments to Winterkald, that you are unable or unwilling to look your chosen opponent in the face, instead preferring to hide behind ad hominems, statements of blatantly clear and utterly irrelevant fact, and smug amateur psychologizing.

As for me, there is no irony to what I am saying. The very point I have been making is that metal, as a countercultural entity, is naturally predisposed towards opposition to some things (though which specific things these are, writ large, is a topic of debate). Commensurately, its participants will naturally evince sentiments of this sort, though along what specific lines may be as varied as metal fans are numerous. This is certainly true of me, and I make absolutely no bones about it. It is obviously equally true of you, as well, but you (and others) seem to prefer to delude yourself into believing that you are equally accepting of all possible outlooks, because this is "clearly" the only way things can be, and if others do not see it, they are simply blind fools.

Irony indeed.
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NightmareLake
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 pm
Posts: 263
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:56 pm 
 

Nightgaunt wrote:

As for me, there is no irony to what I am saying. The very point I have been making is that metal, as a countercultural entity, is naturally predisposed towards opposition to some things

I oppose the idiocy in this thread. That makes me "king metal". Seriously, it's just music. Gotta go.

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Under_Starmere
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:56 pm 
 

Nightgaunt wrote:
...don't start trying to smother the discussion with this Disneyland "come one come all/everything has as much a place in metal as everything else" horseshit, because you clearly don't believe it any more than those who you so readily belittle.


Who are you to say what strangers on a forum believe or don't believe? Come on now. If they're directly contradicting themselves, that's one thing...

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NightmareLake
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 pm
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:58 pm 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
Nightgaunt wrote:
...don't start trying to smother the discussion with this Disneyland "come one come all/everything has as much a place in metal as everything else" horseshit, because you clearly don't believe it any more than those who you so readily belittle.


Who are you to say what strangers on a forum believe or don't believe? Come on now. If they're directly contradicting themselves, that's one thing...
I will be back in a few hours to catch up on the hilarity. I'm hoping for some classic material!

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EntilZha
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:00 pm 
 

Under_Starmere wrote:
Nightgaunt wrote:
...don't start trying to smother the discussion with this Disneyland "come one come all/everything has as much a place in metal as everything else" horseshit, because you clearly don't believe it any more than those who you so readily belittle.


Who are you to say what strangers on a forum believe or don't believe? Come on now. If they're directly contradicting themselves, that's one thing...

There is a clear contradiction in saying "everyone has a place in metal, but people who disagree with that don't have a place in metal!"
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andersbang
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:28 am
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Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:27 pm 
 

Nightgaunt wrote:
One can (and people have) argue along the lines that religion and spirituality cannot or should not be taken as a viable filter, and the same is true of many other things (gender, sexual preference, political bent, etc.), but don't start trying to smother the discussion with this Disneyland "come one come all/everything has as much a place in metal as everything else" horseshit, because you clearly don't believe it any more than those who you so readily belittle.


Thank you for telling me what I believe and don't believe.
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Nightgaunt
I'll Swallow Your Soul

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:50 pm
Posts: 6240
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:36 pm 
 

Very well NightmareLake, run along.

Under_Starmere wrote:
Who are you to say what strangers on a forum believe or don't believe? Come on now. If they're directly contradicting themselves, that's one thing...


That is indeed just what I'm getting at. Consider the proposition that all outlooks on metal and what it can/cannot/should/should not be are equally beautiful, appropriate, sensible, valid, or whatever term of approval one might prefer. This proposition has been used by some here (though not necessarily everyone who disagrees with the notion that Christianity has no place in black metal), coupled with the statement or implication that those that do no accept it (the proposition) are "stupid", or "idiots", or "living in a fantasy world", or a "source of hilarity." These judgements--whether they can be reasonably argued to be correct or incorrect is largely irrelevant--indicate that those making them feel that at least one kind of mindset (e.g. that some types of metal/philosophical combinations are questionable) is foolish, groundless, and in an ideal world (which this is not, as many statements of fact could exemplify), would not be present amongst the metal fandom, which, in broad form, is analogous to the exception that some people take against the presence of Christianity within black metal (to name but one example).

The reason that I take exception to this is not even so much the dissonance in the proposition itself as the fact that the way it was introduced--and the way it has historically tended to be introduced by those that hold it--set this thread on a downhill course. As you may or may not know, this is a rather common topic of discussion here (I would estimate that it occurs roughly twice a month, sometimes less, sometimes more), and typically ends very badly. For whatever reason--perhaps just coincidence, perhaps as a result of your personal attempts to marshall it a bit better, or any number of other things--this thread, at 4/5 pages now, is doing quite a bit better than its predecessors have tended. As such, I feel that the presence here of things like 'idiocy' or 'hypocrisy' has been asserted more than it has been demonstrated, and sought to either preclude these things from dragging the thread too far into a flamewar, or at least prolong its productivity a bit more by subjecting a popular view to some closer examination. Perhaps this view really could argued to have a great degree of merit, but again, thus far it has been clumsily and aggressively asserted more than it has been demonstrated.
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NightmareLake
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 pm
Posts: 263
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:36 pm 
 

andersbang wrote:
Nightgaunt wrote:
One can (and people have) argue along the lines that religion and spirituality cannot or should not be taken as a viable filter, and the same is true of many other things (gender, sexual preference, political bent, etc.), but don't start trying to smother the discussion with this Disneyland "come one come all/everything has as much a place in metal as everything else" horseshit, because you clearly don't believe it any more than those who you so readily belittle.


Thank you for telling me what I believe and don't believe.

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I think I have been trolled.

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Whackooyzero
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 10:57 pm
Posts: 833
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:36 pm 
 

andersbang wrote:
Nightgaunt wrote:
One can (and people have) argue along the lines that religion and spirituality cannot or should not be taken as a viable filter, and the same is true of many other things (gender, sexual preference, political bent, etc.), but don't start trying to smother the discussion with this Disneyland "come one come all/everything has as much a place in metal as everything else" horseshit, because you clearly don't believe it any more than those who you so readily belittle.


Thank you for telling me what I believe and don't believe.


Yeah, seriously don't be putting words in people's mouths. How do you know we don't believe everyone has an equal place in metal just because you don't?
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EntilZha
Retired

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:42 pm 
 

Yeah NightmareLake, keep the ad hominems coming, they greatly demonstrate how everyone but you is an idiot.
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NightmareLake
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:46 pm 
 

EntilZha wrote:
Yeah NightmareLake, keep the ad hominems coming, they greatly demonstrate how everyone but you is an idiot.
Are you reading this thread? I have never said that certain people are not allowed in the metal scene. I'm saying the opposite! I'm not the one putting words in people mouths and putting my own foot in my mouth. I don't think anyone here is an idiot. I think some are silly, but that's what I see in everyday life. Hell, I do dilly things myself, but saying certain people cant be into metal takes the cake.

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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:52 pm 
 

EntilZha wrote:
Under_Starmere wrote:
Nightgaunt wrote:
...don't start trying to smother the discussion with this Disneyland "come one come all/everything has as much a place in metal as everything else" horseshit, because you clearly don't believe it any more than those who you so readily belittle.


Who are you to say what strangers on a forum believe or don't believe? Come on now. If they're directly contradicting themselves, that's one thing...

There is a clear contradiction in saying "everyone has a place in metal, but people who disagree with that don't have a place in metal!"


I agree with that. But who here was saying that, exactly?

My own take on this whole thing is pretty much in line with Winterkald's here:

Winterkald wrote:
The music surely is very important, but it's not JUST about the music. There are no 'rules' here. If you are a Christian and you want to persuade making black metal? Fine, go ahead. I won't understand why and you will never gain my support and I'm pretty sure that 99% of the black metal scene will laugh at you and kick you in the balls after that.


I don't think it has to be much more complicated than that.

It's entirely possible for metal to be "against" things. People who jump into a milieu that is historically opposed to their ideology should just recognize what they're in for.

As to this:

Nightgaunt wrote:
This discussion is a matter of "shoulds", not a matter of "cans."


True... but who gets to decide the "shoulds" when it comes to art? The "cans" we can answer. As for the "shoulds," we don't have any real moral/ethical parameters to dictate that sort of thing outside of completely individual, subjective viewpoints. So it's doubtful any agreement might ever be reached on that score.


Last edited by Under_Starmere on Mon May 17, 2010 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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EntilZha
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:54 pm 
 

@NightmareLake
First of all, you seem to have missed this post:
Winterkald wrote:
I don't know where you read that Christians have no place in metal (I don't feel like scrolling through four pages for this post by someone). I only stated that Christians have no place in BLACK metal. I'm not going to explain why for the 5th time. Christians are accepted among other genres I guess.

And, to clarify the above post, here's another quote:
Venom wrote:
Black is the night, metal we fight
Power amps set to explode
Energy screams, magic and dreams
Satan records their first note.
We chime the bell, chaos and hell
Metal for maniacs pure.
Fast melting steel, fortune on wheels
Brain hemmorage is the cure

Freaking so wild, nobody's mild
Giving it all that you've got.
Wild is so right, metal tonight
Faster than over the top.
Open the core enter hells door
Black is the code for tonight
Atomic force, feel no remorse
Crank up the amps now it's night

...now read the New Testament to find out how it is incompatible with what SpyreWorks calls "epic poetry" above.
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Under_Starmere
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:47 pm 
 

Nightgaunt wrote:
That is indeed just what I'm getting at. Consider the proposition that all outlooks on metal and what it can/cannot/should/should not be are equally beautiful, appropriate, sensible, valid, or whatever term of approval one might prefer. This proposition has been used by some here (though not necessarily everyone who disagrees with the notion that Christianity has no place in black metal), coupled with the statement or implication that those that do no accept it (the proposition) are "stupid", or "idiots", or "living in a fantasy world", or a "source of hilarity." These judgements--whether they can be reasonably argued to be correct or incorrect is largely irrelevant--indicate that those making them feel that at least one kind of mindset (e.g. that some types of metal/philosophical combinations are questionable) is foolish, groundless, and in an ideal world (which this is not, as many statements of fact could exemplify), would not be present amongst the metal fandom, which, in broad form, is analogous to the exception that some people take against the presence of Christianity within black metal (to name but one example).


Agree with you here. Though regarding people as "stupid", or "idiots", or "living in a fantasy world", or a "source of hilarity," hyperbolic as it might be, isn't really denying those people a place in metal, per se, which is what I took to be the issue at hand.

Nightgaunt wrote:
The reason that I take exception to this is not even so much the dissonance in the proposition itself as the fact that the way it was introduced--and the way it has historically tended to be introduced by those that hold it--set this thread on a downhill course. As you may or may not know, this is a rather common topic of discussion here (I would estimate that it occurs roughly twice a month, sometimes less, sometimes more), and typically ends very badly. For whatever reason--perhaps just coincidence, perhaps as a result of your personal attempts to marshall it a bit better, or any number of other things--this thread, at 4/5 pages now, is doing quite a bit better than its predecessors have tended. As such, I feel that the presence here of things like 'idiocy' or 'hypocrisy' has been asserted more than it has been demonstrated, and sought to either preclude these things from dragging the thread too far into a flamewar, or at least prolong its productivity a bit more by subjecting a popular view to some closer examination. Perhaps this view really could argued to have a great degree of merit, but again, thus far it has been clumsily and aggressively asserted more than it has been demonstrated.


I get you, no argument there. I'm trying to keep it civil! Though the goddamn flamewar always seems so inevitable in every post. Why can't it just be about ideas? Fuck.

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NightmareLake
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:13 pm 
 

People tend to get defensive when dealing with subject matter they hold dear to their heart. Sadly the way some folks deal with it reminds me of the same way religious nuts defend their beliefs. Metal to me has no rules. Sheep mentality has no place in metal.

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EntilZha
Retired

Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 2222
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:14 pm 
 

NightmareLake wrote:
Metal to me has no rules. Sheep mentality has no place in metal.

:durr:
Under_Starmere, is the contradiction glaring enough for you now?
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Nightgaunt
I'll Swallow Your Soul

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:50 pm
Posts: 6240
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:19 pm 
 

I rest my case.



From here on, any participation from me here will be strictly administrative. To start, I must require that users make an effort to treat their peers with a modicum of respect and dialectic charity if they expect to receive any from me or other staff.
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King_Hands
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:46 am
Posts: 629
Location: Indiana
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:24 pm 
 

I agree with Nightmarelake in that metal has no rules, but sheep mentality is in my opinion all too common in metal.

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:29 pm 
 

Anything that is classified must obey the terms of said classification, that is inherent. Of course metal has rules or else it wouldn't be called metal... or anything for that matter.

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EntilZha
Retired

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:33 pm 
 

What people seem unable or unwilling to understand is that these rules aren't about what artists can or cannot do, but about what it will or will not be called after they've done it. The rules do not come into play during the creative process, they are applied afterwards when it comes to classifying what category the result of the creative process is to be sorted in.
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Under_Starmere
Abhorrent Fish-Man

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:00 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:37 pm 
 

EntilZha wrote:
NightmareLake wrote:
Metal to me has no rules. Sheep mentality has no place in metal.

:durr:
Under_Starmere, is the contradiction glaring enough for you now?


Eheh....ehhhh..... yeah, where are my sunglasses. It's not that I didn't get your point before, but that just kind of solidified it.

NightmareLake, I understand where you're coming from, but you have to admit there's a fundamental contradiction in terms here.

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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:39 pm 
 

Yeah, I'm going to record ragtime for the piano and call it metal. Metal has no rules, so you can't say it isn't metal, right?

Also, people really need to get over the fact that metal is rebellious. I mean it is, but it's not so rebellious that it also has to rebel against itself; it's rebelling against, to grossly generalize, modern society/consumerism/money worship/organized religion. It is not about rebelling against everything, but about rebelling against those general but nonetheless largely defined sets of values through a certain style of music. You can't just say metal stands for nothing at all, simply because you don't agree with everything it stands for. Artistic movements stand for things; this has been and always will be true. Otherwise they wouldn't be worth anything.
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NightmareLake
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 pm
Posts: 263
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:47 pm 
 

EntilZha wrote:
NightmareLake wrote:
Metal to me has no rules. Sheep mentality has no place in metal.

:durr:
Under_Starmere, is the contradiction glaring enough for you now?
Sheep mentality is what creates these rules. I see it and thats all that matters. I'm going to go play my non evil drums now.

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Lippyass Major
Mens Mentis Minor

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:57 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:50 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:

Also, people really need to get over the fact that metal is rebellious. I mean it is, but it's not so rebellious that it also has to rebel against itself;


Yeah, leave that to punk.

I care a lot about emotion in music, and musical aesthetics that are crafted through lyrics. I would have an impossible time enjoying black metal with pro-Christian lyrics very much, not that I'm very into black metal at all. But, on the rare occasion I listen to some, I want it to be powerful and convincing. That means, it can't be any of this pro-Christian stuff.

I can tolerate pro-Christian lyrics of certain varieties in other genres of metal, but it really needs to be done correctly and not in a preachy way. I mean, there are certain very liberal denominations of Christianity whose messages I find minimally contradictory to my beliefs.

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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1623
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:56 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Yeah, I'm going to record ragtime for the piano and call it metal. Metal has no rules, so you can't say it isn't metal, right?



He was obviously referring to lyrical themes, not musical style.

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