Well, that's a twofold issue, really.

1) Should a re-recorded version be considered a full-length?
I think YES. I don't know if anyone else noticed that, but some re-recorded versions of albums are listed on MA as "full-lengths" (with mention of the re-recording in the additional notes), while others are listed as "best of/compilations". I think the latter is frankly misleading, and even false. It's not a "best of" because it's only tracks originally from one album, and more importantly it's certainly not a compilation, because it's a new recording. If a band does a cover version of a song, it's still new material, not original from a songwriting point of view, but it's previously unreleased material nonetheless. What will never be worthy of any name other than revisionism are remastered, remixed or partially re-recorded versions, though. But there's no trick with a complete re-recording: it's just cover versions of the band's own songs.

2) Should you care for it as if it were a brand new album?
That's a much more subjective question, and I personally go on a case by case basis to answer it for myself. In a vast majority of cases I know of, the original is immensely superior, so my answer is nope. This includes 'Stormblast', as well as 'Fistful of Anthrax' and of course the blasphemous 'Let There be Blood', among many others. However, 'The Savage Poetry' is a clean cut case of the exact opposite: you could probably convince me to sell you my copy of the original at a good price, whereas you'll only ever be able to get your paws on my copy of the 2000 version from my cold, dead fingers' kung fu grip. So yeah! By all means, it's its own album, and their best one to boot.


Dude! I didn't mean to shame you into editing your own overview, there!


Cool! I'll do just that, then. Thanks.

Edit: Sorry for the long digression and double-post. I'll be quiet now.

Okay here's the better version.

1. Speed Metal Era 1984-1986: This was when Kai Hansen was the guitarist/singer and sounded nothing like Helloween did later. Despite being a short lived lineup, they managed to release a great debut album in Walls Of Jericho. Lyrically the focuses were mainly on drugs, poverty, war, and the like though the humorous approach was evident from the start with "Gorgar" although it's debatable as to whether the lyrics are metaphorical or not. The music to me sounded like a cross between Iron Maiden and Accept(especially R&W-MH era) but a bit heavier and faster. The rhythm section was also a little more straightforward in this era.

2. Power Metal Era 1986-1990: After getting Michael Kiske they basically re thought their sound. It's hard to pinpoint why exactly they made such a change after only a few months(considering they started recording at the end of '86, which means the songs had to have been written earlier in the Jericho era), but they did. With the Keeper Of The Seven Keys albums they had a much cleaner, melodic sound that was taking speed metal like Agent Steel with the melodic sensibilities and clean production that Queensryche were doing at the time(Rage For Order era). The guitar work was more thought out and far less frantic in soloing then before. Lyrically the humor became more prevalent thanks to Weikath, but the social commentary remained but with more of a fantasy tinge.

3. Pop "Experimental" Era 1990-1994: People often blame Michael Kiske for causing this change, but it's again hard to say. In '91 they did "Pink Bubbles" which was a good album but it definitely had a poppier sound and a few throwaway tracks. Lyrically, the got more emotional and even a little whiny(especially on "Chameleon") and the singing seemed to reflect that. Even though I think Michael Kiske gives his most soulful performance on "Chameleon" overall the album is hated with very good reason. We also the addition of guitar god Roland Grapow to the band(a good move IMO) who composed what are probably the best songs on "Bubbles" but probably the worst on "Chameleon".

4. Heavy/Power Metal Era 1994-2000: This for me is when they really hit their stride. Though they had made 3 great albums in the past and 1 very good one, it wasn't until here that they really start to blow me away. Andi was more then a suitable replacement for Kiske as he is extremely different and more aggressive, but seems to have similar melodic tendencies. We also got Uli Kusch who I prefer over Ingo(no offense, I love his playing too), and they made "Master Of The Rings". Which was an okay album, it just didn't leave a very strong impression. But each album got better and heavier, personally hitting their opus on "Better Than Raw" VERY closely followed by "The Dark Ride". The three they did from '96 to '00 for me had the best balance of experimentation, varied vocals, virtuosic lead guitar, explosive drumming, great riffs and as always with Marko very consistent yet technical bass playing. Lyrically they took a darker approach with more real life themes but with still some similarities with the "Keeper" era.

5. Attempted "Return To Roots" era 2001-2006: I was personally very disappointed when they kicked Uli and Roland, and honestly questioned if they would be able to return with a solid album. Well to be quite frank they didn't. "Rabbit Don't Come Easy" may have been more similar to their early material(which was their goal) but without the inspiration and it just sounds like a tired band trying to regain lost fans(which is ironic . because most people I know like "The Dark Ride" anyways but whatever). The third Keeper was a terrible idea especially considering they only had two of the members from that album. The songs overall weren't that great and although Sascha Gerstner and Daniel Loble are decent replacements, they can't compete with their predecessors despite still being pretty good. They just sound like studio musicians to me.

6. Heavy/Power Metal Era 2 2006-: Here they did the last thing I thought they would do and that's come back with one of the top albums of their career. "Gambling With The Devil" proves that there is life in Helloween without Hansen, Kiske, Grapow, Schwichtenberg, or Kusch. Andi sounds the best he has since 2000, and is perhaps even more varied in style. The riffs are sometimes even better then the old songs so I have to say they basically won on this one. Lyrically they touch upon pretty much every era of the band a little bit, and Sascha and Daniel sound more inspired and unique then they did before. I know they recently did that much hated "Unarmed" album but I can't really count that because it's basically one of those albums where they do every song in a different style but from what I've heard it's okay.

So there you go. And of course this is all opinion based.

EDIT: Legendmaker, I didn't redo this because of you, it's actually something I've wanted to do for awhile.

Don't worry, topics like this sometimes deserve double posts, and indeed they can make the posts simpler to read. For example, if someone does a band overview and, at the same time, they comment on some previous overviews/other posts.

I actually have NOT heard the original Savage Poetry yet, which makes it even sillier as to why I did not include both versions, but really I guess I just wasn't thinking straight.

Whackooyzero, I pretty much agree with all of that, except I still kinda like "Chameleon." It's really different but a lot of the songs are still kind of enjoyable.

To be honest I like some stuff off of Chameleon as well, but I can see why people hate it. It's maybe my least favorite of theirs but I do like a fair amount of songs on it though. Especially Giants, Longing, Windmill and I Believe.

It was the first album I heard and... well, my review pretty much says it all. There are some things about it I really like, but overall the rerecording is just better.

How do you go about finding the original? Download?

I thought it'd be pretty simple to figure out, but yes.

Not necessarily. The first edition of the 2000 version came with a bonus CD that contains the original 1995 version (which hasn't been remastered, remixed or otherwise altered). The only thing you'll be missing is the original cover artwork, if you buy that. That's what I have, and it's pretty nice, with a lot of info in the booklet. Hmpf... I've checked on both eBay and MusicStack, and apparently that too became a collector's item, with people selling it at no less than $50.00 these days. It sucks, they really should have made all editions complete.

As for the original 1995 release itself, of course download is the only way to get it (well, either that or selling a couple of vital organs in order to get the cash necessary to buy the actual collector's item—and that's if you find a collector willing to sell it). It's basically a full-length demo: only a few hundred copies were ever issued, and self-released. Its unavailability was the main incentive for the band to do the 2000 version in the first place (and since the double-edition became scarce as well, I'd say they failed). That said, nowadays it'd be pretty hard to tell whether what you're getting is a direct rip of the original, or a rip of the 2000 bonus CD.

Exactly why I asked the question above. I guess I might get this album, especially since I'm interested in mid-era Edguy a lot. Something about songs I heard from Mandrake and Vain Glory Opera makes the period rather attractive musically. So much music, so little time (not to mention finite amounts of money).

I liked this period overall but it's rather hard to get into fully, the who performance seems a bit... too mellow, watered-down (especially the vocals, way too cheery... and I like some Sonata Arctica). Still some very catchy stuff, but Keeper Part 1 just seems like a fluffier kind of Iron Maiden more than anything else. Will have to get Part 2 soon though, perhaps it'll give me a more balanced idea of the whole thing.

I guess I’ll do another one, this time of one of my favorite bands, Ensiferum.

The most obvious way to divide up their career is a straightforward Jari Mäenpää/Petri Lindroos comparison, but it can be a little more complex than that. First of all, there’s the (1) demo phase, consisting of the band’s three demos, all conveniently re-released as the 1997-1999 compilation, which I’ve had to download on account of the unforgivably tiny number pressed. The stuff here is basically a mix between songs which would later appear on the S/T album (about 2/3) and four “original” songs, two of which would get re-recorded for the Dragonheads EP later on. This is an Ensiferum still learning their stuff, having a very raw, primordial sound to the songs which would later be perfected on the S/T. That said, this stuff is excellent and very enjoyable to listen to, unlike many other bands’ demo eras.

After this comes the obligatory (2) Jari Mäenpää phase, also known as classic Ensiferum. This of course consists of the first two albums and is the basis of Ensiferum’s popularity and acclaim among the mainline metal world. The S/T is one of the truest, purest, most well-fused examples of folk metal in the world, taking elements of death, black, folk with some Viking aesthetics and mixing them into a perfectly coherent result. This has absolutely nothing to do with the pathetic “folk metal” trite of bands such as Finntroll, Blackguard and Korpiklaani. Iron is a more varied album, mixing a larger quantity of different elements (female vocals, more chanting, more folk instruments) into a still excellent whole. However, it simply can’t surpass its illustrious predecessor.

Finally, and this will probably break into more distinctive portions as the years go by, is the (3) Petri Lindroos, or neo-Ensiferum, phase. It started with the well-made Dragonheads EP and continued with the two newest albums. Victory Songs is a good album, excellent even for folk metal standards. However, compared to the previous two it lacks something. It’s much more tame, like the band got comfortable with a new, less ambitious sound and decided to remain there. It’s also less original, less Ensiferum than its predecessors, including Dragonheads. Fortunately, last year’s From Afar annihilated all fears of the band losing their signature sound and excellent, returning to a level of originality and awesomeness which rivals the Jari era. The structures, the lyrics, the artwork, they’re back and kicking strong. After this, I have no doubts that they can keep on making great music in the future.

Yeah it is kind of a fluffier Iron Maiden but I still love the era. I love Kiske's vocals more then most people I know but it's definitely not my favorite era of the band even though it was pretty good. The songs just don't seem totally complete sometimes and other times just don't leave a big impression. Despite a few exceptions like Halloween, Twilight Of The Gods, and Save Us.

Having not read the whole thread, I would say Behemoth- I loved Grom, was a bit thrown by Pandemonic Incantations, but fucking love everything from Satanica on. All Behemoth have done is gotten better and better.

Catamenia have also progressed from pretty simple melodic black, then adding some kinda viking/power metal elements, and then with their latest, basically heavy metal with some black/death elements. That said, I do not like the latest at all....

Hmm,I think the 1986-90 would be the heavy/power era.Really,I don't see a big difference between the Keepers and most traditional metal.Yes,it has influenced the later power metal bands,but song such as I'm Alive,Future World,or I want Out sound more like heavy metal than power metal.

They sound like Power Metal to me. 1993-2000 was the Heavy/Power Metal era because to me personally the elements of traditional metal were more prominent even though it was still power metal.

I can understand how you'd claim this with I Want Out, it's a true heavy metal classic with almost every characteristic of what makes one, but Future World and especially I'm Alive both scream power metal. The vocals are dead-on PM and so is the general structure. Still, the line between the two subgenres isn't the clearest in the world, mostly a question of feeling within the music.

I always thought that if you'd squeesh the keepers together as one album and cut out some of the fat you'd have a real killer. There's lots of MEH moments for me especially on part II.

to me ensiferum is mostly running wild tribute

The influence is certainly there, both both are awesome bands. All the better that Jari & Markus listened to Running Wild.

Which songs would you keep if you were the one to create such a real killer album? And why those?

Am I the only one that prefers "Part II?" They're both great albums but I find the second one to have more consistent songwriting.

Quoting most of the post simply because I missed it on page 3 and I have a few thoughts:



I only have Vain Glory Opera from these but I can definitely see how his vocals developed quickly. He sounds like he's trying to sing in a really epic way and while it is good, his vocals would improve soon. Definitely a great album, but nowhere near Edguy's peak.


I've seen this opinion before and I just don't get it. Theater of Salvation is by far my favorite Edguy release. Mandrake is kind of fun, but it seems like it really drags on by the end. ToS had so many great tracks; Babylon, The Headless Game, Arrows Fly, Holy Shadows, etc. Still, both albums are definitely worth hearing.

As for Avantasia during this time, I only have Part II and I just really don't enjoy it.



Hellfire Club: This was my first Edguy album and I see it as Power/Heavy Metal. It really is a great album. My only problem is that a couple of tracks should have been switched for those found on the King of Fools EP.

Rocket Ride was unbelievably mediocre and boring. Superheroes and the title track are fun songs, but I can't listen to anything else from that album. And though I love Metal, I don't mind bands evolving or listening to Hard Rock. Unfortunately this album just isn't that enjoyable for me. For the same reason, I chose not to by Tinnitus Sanctus even though I've had several opportunities.

The Scarecrow, is a masterpiece. Despite the numerous genres, every track is classic. The more I listen to it, the more I realize songs like Lost in Space and Shelter from the Rain are completely genius. The fact that Edguy was going downhill made me worried for the two that came out this year but I was not surprised or disappointed.

The Wicked Symphony is by far the superior record for me, but both of them have a lot of great tracks. My only complaint is the attempt at having another Alice Cooper type song, which just failed, and Crestfallen, because it's chorus is really weird. Both good albums and a bit better than what I was expecting.

I don't agree with most of what you just said. Theater of Salvation has some amazing songs, but too many that just don't match up. The only real classics on it are the first three and the title track - although "Wake Up the King" is fun too. A lot of songs are like that. Fun but not really...essential, or not up to Edguy standard.

The King of Fools EP? Again, decent but really not as good as anything on the album.

I know what you mean about The Scarecrow. It's a funny, polarizing album, but I don't know, I really do get a sense of wholesome completion from it. It's like an album a guy writes when he's afraid he won't be able to make another one. But he did, and the two new ones I find a little more entertaining in the long run. I don't really rate this band like other bands. They're just something I really find enjoyable and gratifying.

My main problem with what you said about that era is that Mandrake is better. I find after the first 5 or so tracks it really gets boring, whereas I can listen to all of Theater of Salvation without ever getting bored.



You can honestly say you prefer Lavatory Love Machine and the Spirit Will Remain to New Age Messiah and the Savage Union?


That's what was so great about it. It doesn't matter that he made other ones because he really put a full effort into this one. I hate poppy stuff but What Kind of Love was actually awesome. I don't think an album should have 3-4 softer songs, and yet, Cry Just a Little and Lost in Space were some of my favorites. Everything about that album just worked so well.

I feel like the new albums are fun for a while, but because they are two separate discs, they won't have the same staying power that the Scarecrow has. I'm not saying that he should have released just one album, because both are great, but I think it would have been better to release them separately, maybe a year apart.

Yes. Those songs just feel like weaker versions of the heavy songs on the album like Down to the Devil and Children of Steel respectively. I like Lavatory Love Machine and The Spirit Will Remain more in the end; I've played them more.

What is Children of Steel? My copy of the album doesn't have that...

Really, I've had it ever since the first time I heard it:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... 92QesRobxU

It's among the selection of downloaded Edguy songs I have (roughly 50-66% of their music). So I guess that it must appear on quite a portion of their Hellfire Club versions. Also, from the Archive page:

Destroyer 666:

Album 1: Violence Is The Prince Of This World (I know it's an EP but it's long enough to be full length)

Speed metal. Medicore production.

2: Unchain The Wolves
More melodic death and thrash. More fluid guitars.

3. Rising Pheonix
Harsher vocals

4. Cold Steel
Getting blacker in the guitars and vocals, but losing lyrical diversity.

5. Defiance
Almost black metal. Best production.

It doesn't seem to be a very highly appreciated album. I have it myself and, after a few listens, I'm not exactly won over for either it or the band (first release I have of them).

I just got the idea to do a little overview of a band with whom I'm quite familiar: Blinded by Faith.

They're a rather unproductive bunch (two albums and and EP since their formation in 1996) who have created some pretty fun music (well... once). The different phases of their existence are pretty easy to divide up:

First comes the (1) early era of Blinded by Faith, which only consists of their debut EP, Veiled Hideousness. It's a rather unremarkable beginning for a band, consisting in boring Cradle of Filth worship, complete with almost-as-shitty vocals and go-nowhere symphonic "black metal", or, put more accurately, extreme metal. Not exactly where to begin with the band unless you want to be disappointed.

Then comes the real deal: the (2) classic phase of Blinded by Faith, made up of the very strong Under an Occult Sun, the debut album. This drops the pitiful CoF worship of before for a much more original and enjoyable type of melodic black metal which sounds authentic as hell. The music here is brilliantly crafted and deserves its spot right up there with the best of Dimmu Borgir and Old Man's Child, among others. This was their musical peak, no question about it.

Finally there's (3) modern Blinded by Faith, a.k.a. Weapons of Mass Distraction. Readily apparent from the first few songs off the album, which started sneaking their way into live shows before its release (see Imperial Collapse: Live In Quebec City ), is that this stuff is inferior to the first album. The authentic melodic black metal sound has been traded away for a more modern, well-produced "slick" sound which frankly goes nowhere and is only slightly better than the stuff from the first EP. A major disappointment, this album pretty much killed my hopes for this band's future.

I got one

Iced earth

- pre horror show- decent heavy aggressive U.S. style power metal.

- post horror show- epically anal sonic douchebaggery

Please put in just a tiny bit more effort in your posts.

I want to add Catamenia on here, but I'm just really lazy. I've already reviewed half their full-lengths, and will plan on finishing them up at least before summer. I just have so many papers due every friggen' week because of writing class, and then I have drill this weekend and don't feel like doing it. Hopefully I'll get the motivation to at least write an evolution post for Catamenia before the end of the month (if the thread lasts that long).

Well it has been here for over a month and a half, so another three weeks will hopefully not kill it, assuming there is at least minimal participation from the population.

I would advise you to put a little more effort in your trolling but you seem to have it down to a T. and I'm sure the majority or people on here agree with my very insightful breakdown of IE. (that would what we normal people refer to as humor btw mr Transilvanian)

Ok, very amusing, but now it's time for this thread to return to its previous state of only normal, non-trolls replying in it. Gentlemen...

I have to say that while I do consider Stormblast MMV to be a new album compared to the original, it still obviously lacks the feel of a true new album. And yeah the original beats it by a considerable margin, especially in terms of atmosphere.

A more interesting example is Hypocrisy's Catch 22 - V.2.0.08 (weird title). It's only partly re-done, and thus the sound is unfortunately similar to its mediocre original version, but all in all I'd say I prefer the re-recording (by a rather small margin). Essentially everything was re-mixed and Peter Tägtgren re-recorded his own vocals. Kind of a huge missed opportunity if you ask me, since he had Horgh of all people in the band with him.

I find this title to be a rather clever/funny wordplay: the original was released in 2(00)2, and the revision in 2008, so he "upgraded" the very light original pun by mocking the whole "web 2.0" myth that was already going strong in 2008 and/or his own partial re-working of the album. Working in the field of online services myself, and watching the evolution and trends of the digital world closely, I'm fully aware that what most professionals and end-users alike boldly dubbed "web 2.0" isn't quite worthy of the name: it is still the same web by any and all means, and any and all of the "2.0" technologies and functionalities were already available and put to good use long before FaceBitch, MyCrap, Twister and all those "socialist networks" simplified, spoiled and marketed them as revolutionary for the retarded general public. Somehow, giving the blatant rise of online communism a cute and capitalist-sounding name like "2.0" was enough to make the sheeple swallow the pill, and give out any and all of their formerly fiercely guarded online freedom and privacy to a handful of Orwelian monsters. It is possible that Tägtgreen cynically called his half-assed retouching of the album "version 2.0.08" as both a means of sending brain-equipped fans a "feel free to ignore that one, bro" message and fooling the rest of the bunch into thinking it was a tremendously "upgraded" version. His band is, after all, called Hypocrisy. At least that's how I read (maybe too much) into it.

Additonal note on Edguy: personally, I was quite disappointed by both 'Mandrake' and 'Hellfire Club'. The former is uninspired songwriting wise and to me it shows that after having given their all to some of Tobias' (and to a far lesser extent, Jens') best compositions on 'The Savage Poetry', it was rather tough to get the songwriting ball rolling again. The latter was just the band on autopilot and it mostly comes across as a whole album of fillers on par only with the weaker tracks of 'Theater of Salvation' or 'Vain Glory Opera' (which both had some killers and stinkers); the only song I truly enjoyed was one of the bonus tracks: the alternate (and much improved) version of "Mysteria" featuring Petrozza's additional lead vocals.

Also, I've been meaning to write some overviews for this thread, but I haven't found myself with the appropriate amounts of time and inspiration for that lately. But I sure wouldn't like to see this thread wither away.