I've yet to hear a 'post-metal' band that I like. The fanbase is usually annoying as well.

All I can say is, after I ordered Through Silver in Blood from the Relapse sale, I have been obsessed with it. I just got it less than a week ago and have played it half a dozen times. That is a lot considering how long it is.

Some of the sections in Through Silver in Blood are absolutely fantastic, while others I do admit are a little bit slow and dull, but I still love this album a great deal. I'm glad I got it.

I haven't delved into post-metal that much really, aside from Isis - Panopticon. I did like this album though, when I'm in the mood for something slower and more subtle.

I also have listened to a few albums that could be considered "black metal/post-rock" or whatever you want to call it, and I didn't really like these as much.

I like some of it, but overly, I'm not too keen. I love bands like Pelican, Neurosis and Russian Circles, but I also find bands like Isis really tame. In my eyes, I don't really think it says much. Not in a literal way, since most of it is instrumental, but I mean in a way that it seems like it's been done before. Once you've listened to a few of the more trippy and experimental Melvins albums, or any Neurosis album after their punk years, nothing in post-metal will really surprise you. That said, though, I still think that Pelican's Drought is one of the most awesome tracks you can listen to- in terms of riffs.

If you like TSIB then be sure to check out Cult Of Luna-S/T and Cult Of Luna-The Beyond. Heavy stuff right there.

Being a fan of Post-Rock and Metal, naturally, I enjoy this genre quite a bit.

The genre bickering is completely ridiculous though.

I do like this genre- at least the giants of it anyway, as the rest seem to basically follow in the footsteps of Isis, Neurosis, CoL and maybe Pelican. Admittedly, the whole thing peaked a while ago, but whatever, there's still some great releases. Capricorns are pretty fun too, but to be honest outside of the big 4 things go downhill extremely quickly.

Regarding the "is it metal" thing, I would say yes. It does borrow very liberally from post-rock and hardcore, sure, but there's enough of a doom and industrial influence here that I think it crosses the line comfortably. I mean damn, listen to isis's "the red sea" and "celestial (the tower)" and tell me there's not a massive godflesh influence there, likewise, give "Hym" and "false light" a go and tell me that there's not a big debt to Sleep. Same with early pelican (drummer sounds one hell of a lot like a drum machine).

Regarding hte fanbase, yes they are fairly annoying but that peaked a few years ago, I think, and if we're being really honest what fanbase isn't annoying? Every genre has it's share of pretentious fuckhead fans, and post-metal isn't any different.

fuck that is gay. anyone who uses that term is gay. pft 'post metal' don't flatter yourselves fairys.

although I could see that beeing a good term for a gutless fuck who doesn't have the balls to stand alone a fan of metal... good cop out for a coward/ former poser in disguise.

You bumped up this thread to say that?

yeah, cause anyone with creativity is gay

Forgive me, but I'm going to have to assume your misunderstanding what is meant by the term "Post-Metal". Now, I'm not too invested into the debate either way (I highlighted on this above). But if it's ok with you, I'd like to ask a couple of questions. Just for the sake of curiosity.

-What would you suppose is a better term for the genre?
-Why do you think the term "Post-Metal" is offensive and a cop out?
-What are your thoughts on the term "Progressive Metal"?

Post-rock/Sludge is probably the most descriptive term. I tend to use post-metal though because everyone knows what you're talking about, while Atmospheric sludge only really gets understood around here.

I like the genre, there are some really good bands. There are some freaking boring bands too. It's like any genre.

I think Bottom Feeder sort of misunderstands the genre name.. It's not meant to be a "we've transcended metal" sort of moniker, but a post rock + metal sort of thing.

Also I hate to go all WoP-y here, but I don't really see much or any sludge influence in the riffs, it's definitely more of a stoner and industrial thing.

*Industrial metal.

How pedantic do you want to be? Of course I know the difference between Godflesh and Throbbing Gristle. Nothing wrong with writing in shorthand, ffs

What can I say, its a pet peeve of mine.

Both genre names pretty much make sense.

Post-metal: portmanteau of "post-rock" and "metal." If you can't hear the metal riffs in actual post-metal releases, you're deaf. The post-rock influences are usually pretty prominent as well, although "post-rock" itself is a pretty retarded genre name.

Atmospheric sludge: "Regular" sludge tends to be a hell of a lot less atmospheric than its cousin stoner metal, so it makes sense to call sludge with post-rock influences atmospheric so that there's a distinction. Denying that it's sludge is pretty stupid as well. Pretty much all of these bands ape either Neurosis or one of their direct followers, such as Isis. Neurosis clearly started as a hardcore band and incorporated doom influences over time. Hardcore + doom = sludge.

I like the genre, but I don't love it. I really like Neurosis and think they have a really unique sound that hasn't really been adequately copied by any of the bands they've influenced. I'm a big post-rock geek, but honestly the genre has exploded into a million Explosions in the Sky clones (and Mogwai clones, to a lesser extent, as Mogwai have a much more varied sound than EITS). Nearly all of the post-metal I've heard has post-rock influences along these lines as well, which was already played out for me by the time I discovered a lot of it.

It would be really interesting to hear a band that combines what Mogwai actually sound like with metal. Or a band that even attempts to combine GY!BE with metal.

Post-black metal is just black metal with post-rock influences and is a completely separate kind of phenomenon from things like post-thrash (which is just a fancy name for groove metal).

I also get endlessly frustrated with people (metalheads seem especially guilty of this) that can't tell the difference between shoegaze and post-rock. Listen to "Only Shallow" and then listen to "Like Herod" and tell me that they're anything alike.

"Pure" sludge creates a wonderful oppressive atmosphere as well. Just saying.

Difference of definition, I guess. Makes sense as "atmospheric" is a pretty nebulous term, anyway (pun intended).

When I think atmospheric, I think tend to picture stuff that's less aggressive and more conducive to "getting lost" in the music. For me, "regular" sludge is a more focused-attention kind of sound rather than an atmospheric one, as the riffs are the main focus and are so direct. It's definitely aggressive, too, which can't be said for a lot of post-metal (or a lot of stoner metal, for that matter).

Are you fucking kidding me?

Are YOU fucking kidding ME?

First Album

Second Album

Third Album

How is this not the gradual injection of doom into a hardcore mold?

First song was straight up hardcore. Second track was hardcore with post rock and post punk influence, no doom (still!). Third track had no doom, just some experimental pieces, post rock riffs and structures, and slowed down hardcore riffs.

I hate mentioning them all of the time, but it is the best example of the formula that YOU provided me with

Funny enough, your formula is 100% correct! Too bad none of your examples supported your claim about Neurosis and neurISIS being sludge.

How did you extract that from his post? Seems as though you're a bit butt hurt

Seems as though you and Crick are catching on!

don't get me wrong, I still think it's quite metal. I just think the slow and heavy component (I'm generally going by Isis here.. been ages since I've regularly listened to post metal) is primarily stoner, not sludge. there's no eyehategod but there's definitely some sabbath and sleep sort of influences.

Also, saying that 2nd song had post-rock influences is a bit silly, considering the genre wasn't even invented yet

Ah well, fair enough. Swans+hardcore.

Do you actually know what post-rock is? Have you ever listened to any?

It didn't even exist as a genre until the mid 90's so I don't see how albums in 1991 or 1992 could have post-rock influences.

Maybe the folk and Swans influence are somehow causing you to completely ignore the Sabbathian riffs? 1:40 into the second sample? 4:30 to about 5:40 in the third sample, for example?

Those aren't Sabbath riffs nor doom riffs.

Let's clarify something though: what do you mean by doom?

An yeah, I confused the influence, my apologies.

Did you listen to the sample I gave you?

while we're on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHz2ORchJHc

intro: big, triumphant riff, of a stoner persuasion. Would you hear anything like this in a post-rock song? no.

2:29- another big stoner riff. Undeniably doomy.

3:15- another big fuckin' riff. Again, doomy as hell.

last two or so minutes of the song is another massive stoner riff.

and another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLCEYZTsgjA
Opener: clearly a huge doom riff. Big and heavy. Electric Wizard have used the same chord progression a bunch of times. Clearly a lot of sleep influence there.

1:37- damn, is that another slow, lethargic stoner doom riff? seems like it.

3:48- actually this does sound somewhat sludgy. Pray tell, where are the major differences between a riff like this and the one at 1:06 on your sample?

Another big riff again, at the 5:40. I'm again interested as to where the major differences are between this riff and the more upbeat ones in that EHG song.

I can go on like this for days..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tEhy_bMX7I
Not stoner stuff but is triumphant

Also, to say it can't have post-rock influences may not be exactly right either. They could have been influenced by the same post-rock influences such as Talk Talk's Spirit of Eden and ambient which has been running for a while.

I don't need to listen to it. I'm familiar with Eyehategod's material. I like the early material with more hardcore sound vocals better than the later stuff, but it's all pretty decent (although I do think there are better bands that play

Usually when I say "doom influence" I'm talking specifically about Sabbath-derived music (traditional doom, stoner metal, sludge). When I'm talking about "doom" as a genre I'll include other stuff as well (death/doom and funeral doom) that's not really bluesy but otherwise pretty much impossible to classify elsewhere.

But yeah, here's a mammoth doom riff in a Neurosis song, starting at about 3:20:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDn-8Rj7pAI

Part of the reason I like Neurosis so much is because they had so many influences that worked their way into the music, apart from just hardcore and doom. Folk, industrial, other sludge bands like Melvins that had their own weird influences, even stuff like Voivod. Every Neurosis song sounds like Neurosis, though.

Bands influenced by Neurosis tend to focus on or at least emphasize only certain parts of Neurosis' sound, as evidenced by caspian's Isis samples (although Isis themselves have evolved over time from essentially Neurosis clones to pretty much a post-rock band with some metal elements).

I was arguing with WoP over MSN a few hours ago (dude went to bed) and I pointed out that exact same riff. It's true though, it's a crushing damn riff, although it seems to have almost a death/doom feel. Still undeniably doom though, and undeniably metal; he's definitely completely lost his "it's not metal" argument.



Makes no sense; being influenced by the things that influenced early post rock doesn't make it post rock-ish. Besides, there's basically no post-rock in any of those three samples batman gave.

If Neurosis are a good representative, then I can't stand this shit.

Neurosis are more experimental doom metal/hardcore than they are post-metal. That's not to say they didn't influence the genre, they most certainly did, but I think it would be unfair to call Neurosis a post-metal band.

Post-metal as most know it is stuff like ISIS, Cult of Luna and Pelican. Gloomy sludge metal that's very atmospheric, more or less. "post-rock played by sludge bands" is the description I often hear for this genre.

You sir, have gone too far

Yeah Neurosis are one of the better bands in any genre. I wish they'd tour Aus.

Does anyone else besides me like Jesu?

I most certainly do. I have yet to dislike even one of their releases. Silver is probably my favorite release by them. They seem to be good at making quality EP's without fail.

People always mention Talk Talk as one of the early proto-post-rock bands but I just don't see their influence on the early bits of the genre. I think post-rock pretty much starts with Slint, as the bands they directly influenced (Rodan, for example) started taking things in a decidedly modern post-rock direction. David Pajo of Slint then went on to join Tortoise and push their jazz-prog into post-rock territory, which would set the groundwork for the more subdued, proggy side of the genre less focused on the massive guitar crescendo.

Karnstein, Neurosis aren't really a good representative either because they're lacking the important post-rock influence. Isis are probably the best "this is what post-metal sounds like" band, I'd say.

Maybe this is more true for Souls at Zero and parts of Enemy of the Sun, but definitely not their whole discography.




And HOW do Neurosis NOT fit this description?




You, sir, have baffled me!

Neurosis have zero post-rock in their sound. Their non-metal influences (other than hardcore, obviously) come more from stuff like folk, industrial, progressive rock and "tribal" music (especially in the drumming).

Atmospheric? Yes. Post-rock? No.

Maybe Dirty Three as well? They started quite early.