I was also going to include 'influential' but was restricted by the stingey character length of the title.

I've been thinking about this for the last couple of hours and am sure someone here could enlighten me. When I was listening to metal in the mid 90s I was into stuff like Type O Negative and Paradise Lost. Two pretty influential bands, but what I'm trying to address here is female-fronted bands. Here are the three albums in question.

The 3rd and the Mortal - Tears Laid In Earth [1994]
The Gathering - Mandylion [1995]
Theatre of Tragedy - Theatre of Tragedy [1995]

These are my thoughts, please agree or disagree as appropriate.

"Tears Laid In Earth" - sounds to me not like a straight metal album but more some kind of experimental doom album. This was probably the first metal album of any kind featuring all female vocals, but I rarely see it cited as being that influential unless someone can tell me otherwise.

"Mandylion" - we're definitely into metal territory now, but is it Gothic? I'd say it was - just by the feel of the music which is quite ethereal and dreamy in places and any heavy sections are softened by Anneke's [excellent] vocals. Also take a look at the melancholy lyrics -

Kill me with your thoughts
Use your mind
Hand me over to this world
Into death... [in motion #1]

My dear, you're losing me now
This will be my last hour
Hear my voice, see my face
See how sick I am
How I long for your embrace [Sand and Mercury]

This blood in my body runs for you
Drink my tears as I cry
My heart and my mind crave for you
Drink my tears as I cry
It is sad how the rain falls down [in motion #2]

How influential and important has this album been? Did it pave the way of the female-fronted/Gothic explosion or was it -

"Theatre of Tragedy" - predating Mandylion only by a couple of months, this was the first 'beauty and the beast' album with baroque keys, romantic interludes, soft sultry vocals, medieval English lyrics and romantic deathly imagery.

So which of these three was the most important one and which started the ball rolling not only for a new take on the Gothic metal sound but for females in metal?

I can't really help you out because I don't know the genre inside out; but I would also like to know what band(s) pioneered the female vocals/gothic style n the early 90s.

What I can say is that Paradise Lost's Gothic predates all three of those albums and utilises female vocals in what could be an early 'beauty and the beast' style, so wouldn't they be the key here?

I definitely wouldn't cite The Gathering as anything near Gothic - that album is progressive and branches off into other genres than metal, but doesn't have the doomy atmosphere required.

Gothic as an adjective is so bloody ambigous, so that's a stumbling block from the outset, but i'm sure the genre has its roots in doom ala The Peaceville Trinity.

First of all - great name - one of my favourite novels.

Secondly - this shouldn't necessarily turn into a genre debate. I included the word "Gothic" in the title to steer people into the topic who would be interested. And here you are, for starters.

It's pretty much well known that the first metal album in a similar style to this to include any female vocals was Celtic Frost's Into the Pandemonium. You had stuff before that like Warlock but that was a very different style.

I think Theatre of Tragedy were far more influential in the 'Gothic' sounding style, but I'm wondering whether Mandylion was influential in metal overall. I just have no idea.

I think there have been very few influential female-fronted metal bands, but I think you could cite Nightwish and Within Temptation pretty much as having a big influence within the genre. Possibly After Forever who added more of a bombastic element. Then you have Tristania who came along and did it better than anyone else [for a couple of albums, at least].

I wouldn't cite Lacuna Coil as being influential at all though. Their early stuff is pretty unoriginal and their first EP is a straight Paradise Lost rip off in a lot of places.

Theatre of Tragedy really cannoned female fronted metal gothic metal and the beauty and the beast style of singing into popularity. I find they're generally credited with being the first gothic metal band in that regard. The problem with Mandylion is that it's perhaps the only Gathering album that could be considered gothic, but even then it's sort of a stretch.

The Paradise Lost bit is right also. The gothic metal sound ultimately originated from Paradise Lost and My Dying Bride, although you probably wouldn't have called them that back then.

Melmoth hit it on the head though; gothic is way too ambiguous; however, if you're looking for the beginnings of femme-gothic metal then look no further than Theatre of Tragedy.

Edit: And I'd be careful dropping Nightwish's name here. They aren't even remotely gothic. If anything, all they helped achieve was people labeling anything with a female frontwoman as gothic. Within Temptation maybe, but they weren't exactly influential either. In fact, I'd struggle to call ANY of those Dutch femme-outfits as gothic; none of them fit.

I was looking at this genre on Last FM and some people seemed to think that at the time the actual genre was beginning to come into popular focus, there was also alot of rising 'female-fronted' bands such as Within Temptation coming out, so the marketing geniuses at the record labels lumped them together... and we're still suffering for it!

I was just listening to that PL album, and I'm wondering when the whole gothic synthonics started coming into metal. That album is pretty raw, and could pass for a old-skool DM album at times, yet in '91 they are creating some inspired fusion of genres and styles. I'm guessing this is Celtic Frost's influence at work again.

I'm off to check out that ToT album again!

Tuomas from Nightwish was actually influenced by the 3rd and the Mortal, hence they are sometimes cited as gothic, although they were never very doomy, maybe the closest to doom is "The Carpenter" from the first album, but a lot of their early stuff was atmospheric verging on non-metal. Songs like "Angels Fall First" and "Sleeping Sun" could be considered gothic, not so metal though. I guess some of the stuff from the Oceanborn album, for example the song "Sacrement of Wilderness" could also be considered gothic, but it's a different type of gothic, not doomy or slow.

But I would say most of the stuff mentioned was influential: Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, The 3rd and the Mortal, and Theatre of Tragedy. Then after that came Tristania's "Widow's Weeds". They don't all belong to the same period of time though, it's more like a progression.

I've recently heard another gothic doom band with a female singer from Norway and around the same time as the 3rd and the Mortal, a band called Paradigma. I have no idea how influential they were, but I would guess not as much as the others because I haven't seen them being cited much.

This is sort of an offshoot, but have you ever noticed how radically different actual gothic music is from it's metal deviation? While one may be a fan of gothic metal, that doesn't guarantee the same person would like gothic music of the non-metal variety.

Anyway, in regards to Paradigma, I've actually heard Mare Veris before. I'm not quite sure why they aren't cited more; I suspect it has to do with something as simple as they were skipped over during that time period, or maybe just never made that push for publicity. They were around well before Tristania, which would rule out competition.

Yeah, have fun figuring out the differences between gothic and atmospheric death/doom. It's only a little more undefined, opinionated, and up in the air as the differences between thrash and speed metal.

You may want to add Spain's Elbereth to the list of fairly early, female-fronted, 'gothic' doom. Melancholy, somewhat barren, and musically kinda simple, but was there with TOT and The Gathering in '95.
http://www.metal-archives.com/release.php?id=8433

Paramaecium - their first from '93, as well as being a female-fronted (part-time) doom/death band, was also a Christian offering, but was probably more doom/death than anything.
http://www.metal-archives.com/release.php?id=4096

Even though Neolithic's The Personal Fragment of Life was initially a demo, it was released by Adipocere in '95 and had many of these elements, though I can't remember how much female-fronted atmosphere it had. http://www.metal-archives.com/release.php?id=108769

As for the beginning of the whole enchilada, like Lysander said, it'd be Celtic Frost's Into the Pandemonium. Woefully underrated and misunderstood at the time. Try "Rex Irae" if you're unsure.

I've wondered about that alot. My mate is what you'd call a goth and when we chat about Gothic Metal he's like "Who? What?! Oh I like 'X-band-with-drum-machines". Its two different planets.

What's worse is that in an effort to explore the metal side of the equation, he started looking at bands like Within Temptation etc. so now there are three genres in the pot!

Luckily I redirected him back to Draconian who, incidentally are a) Gothic b) Doom c) Symponic d) Female Fronted and e) Influenced by the old-skool forefathers of the genres in a way that respects the legacy. In fact they were going to cover Gothic but they couldn't do it justice.

Surely there is more to go than Theatre of Tragedy and 3rd and the Mortal though?

That "Tears Laid In Earth" is certainly influential to other women in the genre but I am sure they got the idea from Paradise Lost's "Icon" or "Gothic" (3rd and the mortal formed around the same time "Icon" came out).

I can't think of any early (pre 1993) gothic band with female vocals besides those Paradise Lost albums.

These bands pretty much started that gothic sound mixed with doom or metal influences and I am sure influenced the females one way or another, hope this helps somehow:

Opera ix
Seigmen
Furbowl
Necromance
Saviour Machine

The 3rd and the mortal are one of the most underrated bands I can think of.
Not a lot of people seem to know of how well Kari sings and that the band even existed for that matter.
Kudos for actually bringing them up

All of the albums are good ones, but only one of them has something to do with gothic is Theatre of Tragedy - Theatre of Tragedy [1995]

I would say that the most important gothic metal albums are Paradise Lost's "Gothic" and Type O Negative's "Bloody Kisses". Perhaps even more important album is Stillborn's (Swe): Necrospirituals from 1989. That album influenced Paradise Lost and could have influenced T.O.N as well. "Necrospirituals" is probably the most pure "gothic metal" album ever released, when it comes to the ability to combine the influence of both genres - gothic and metal - in a very pure way. Unfortunately that album is quite hard to get.

I have never even heard of any of those three. Comparing their relevance to Type O or Paradise Lost seems far fetched.

You mean the three albums in the OP? Really? With the exception of Tears Laid in Earth, the other two are extremely well known in their field...

But how would you say it's far-fetched? The underlying styles of Type O Negative and Paradise lost aren't far away at all from the three albums mentioned in the OP. If you read the thread, it was stated multiple times that, at least with Paradise Lost, they heavily influenced the aforementioned three. Or does it go deeper, perhaps the idea that female vocals are used negates any similarities they might have had?

I for one think that gothic metal was inevitable.

For one thing, you had bands with female singers which sang about fear and depression and similar themes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rg5H5KYZ ... re=related
not that the music is gothic, it's late period NWOBHM, the vocals are kind of different. I have the album, despite the band name and album title, most of the songs have lyrics like this.

Then there's Sacrilege's 3rd album, which is doom mixed with thrash, maybe this isn't the best example, but there aren't many songs up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh9vji_1yI8
and check out the lyrics to the next song on the album, "Soul Search", in the Archives.

Other than that, despite many old time goths hating metal, a lot of the early gothic bands sometimes used metal-type riffs, although with a different guitar tone than metal. Here's one from Bauhaus's first album:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbec24p2 ... re=related

and the intro to the Mission song "Sacrilege":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrDy81Y8Cfk
the song is actually from the 1980s, the album version sounds similar

Sacrmemnt of Wilderness is Power Metal. Hell the whole Oceanborn CD is Power Metal. The first three Nightwish CDs all fall into the Power Metal sound. From CC to DPP is moved into Symphonic Power Metal.

There is nothing in the music that is Gothic. After Forever, Epica, Within Temptation, Delain, Leaves' Eyes, Edenbridge are not even close to what Gothic Metal is they are either playing Power Metal, Prog Metal, or Symphonic Metal with power or prog metal elements thrown into there music

The only female fronted Gothic Metal bands out there are Trail of Tears, Theatre of Tragedy, The Sins of Thy Beloved, The Gathering, Sirenia.

I dislike ever metal band with a female singer having the Gothic tag placed on them when they are not even playing Gothic metal.

Let me put it to people this why if I say what other bands are like Theatre of Tragedy and you give me Stream of Passion I'm going to slap you up side you're head. Stream of Passion is Prog symphonic metal. Where the hell is the gothic sound? Oh they have a female singer. To bad it sounds nothing like Theatre of Tragedy.



Well yeah because they could not tell that at the time that bands such as Nightwish, Within Temptation, and After Forever were playing music more a long the lines of Power and Prog Metal.

Hell most Power and Prog metal bands have been adding a Symphonic sound to there music some such as Kamelot are really going with it. It's only normal that a band like Epica or Delain would be better suited as Symphonic metal because that's what the sound really is. Hell the so called Symphonic sound in Gothic Metal is not even really Symphonic.

I can kind of see what you mean, there is part of "Sacrement of Wilderness" which sounds a lot like power metal, but I was thinking the somewhat darker sound of the rest of the song, keyboard sounds and lyrical content.

Then again I don't see why you insist the Gathering and Sirenia are some of the few gothic metal bands, maybe about half of Sirenia's output is not very gothic, not to mention the Gathering. And it's absurd to say only 5 bands ever played gothic metal to begin with.

darker sound? The keyboards in Oceanborn sound just like the kind that you would find in Rhapsody of Fire cheesey as hell. And lyrical content really means nothing. Take Kamelot, Iced Earth, and Dark Tranquillity they have dark lryical content does that make them Gothic?

Much of Sirenia's old sound was still with in the relam of Tristania until Morten Veland went nuts and total lost it.

Even though The Gathering has changed there sound a hell of a lot of there years they still had a lot more elements of a gothic sound in there music. And I did not say only five bands. I was pointing out that Trail of Tears, Theatre of Tragedy, The Sins of Thy Beloved, The Gathering, Sirenia, and Tristania are female fronted Gothic metal bands. Where as bands such as After Forever, Epica, Within Temptation, Delain, Leaves' Eyes, Edenbridge have nothing to do with Gothic metal. They are all called Gothic metal because the have a lead female singer.

Hell I bet there are people that think the band The Project Hate MCMXCIX is Gothic Metal even though they are Melodic Death metal. You then have bands such as To-Mera Prog metal, and Amberian Dawn Power metal neither one of the bands play Gothic Metal but people will still lump them in there.

Hell 90% of the band under the lable of Gothic metal should not even be there and have a darker sound, keyboard, and lyrical content mean nothing. If it was all based on a darker sound then ever Black metal band could be thrown under the Gothic tag. If it was based on the keboard then I vote we give Children of Bodom that tag of Gothic Metal to go along with there Melo Death/Power/whatever they are. If it it's lyrical content then hell that ever metal band you can think of. Yeah even the cheese ball power metal music has dark lyrical content from time to time.

Gothic Metal is the must miss used of all the genres.

o.k., fine, I agree with you for the most part.

What about Novembers Doom? It seems like they were around a long time.

And as far as the Mission goes, not that they are metal, but I can hear a lot of their sound in many gothic metal bands. Has anyone ever seen them mentioned in interviews as an influence?

It is an illusion that female vocalists would have something to do with gothic metal. This illusion was created by the music industry around mid 90'ies, after it realised that real gothic influenced metal ala Paradise Lost, Type O Negative, Moonspell and so on were starting to get popular. Some of the labels had signed bands like The Gathering and they thought that they could sell these bands under the gothic metal tag. Altough they were not gothic metal at all. At those times they (The Gathering and so on) were labeled as atmospheric metal. Sadly the media bought the idea of starting to call these bands as gothic as well, ever more sadly the people who buy records bought it too. The ones who like that kind of music and the ones who deeply hate that kind of music, they all bought it and didn't want to know any better. This has almost totally killed the real gothic metal scene, all that there is left is a false illusion and a only a handful of real gothic metal bands. Go and make an interview with The Gathering and Moonspell and ask them a question - are you a gothic metal band? And you will get the answer from themselves.

Gothic metal tag should come as a result for being a metal band with dark and decadent gothic influences (ala Bauhaus, Joy Division, The Sisters of Mercy and so on), not for the reason that you just happen to be a little bit atmospheric, smile on stage and have a nice dress to wear.

Paradise Lost, after "Lost Paradise" in 1990. Finnish Isten Magazine.

OK, we've clearly decided that Theatre of Tragedy was the album to start the Gothic/BnB ball rolling but I don't think we've come to a conclusion on which of those three albums was the most influential overall?

To be really honest I'm not a very big fan of Theatre of Tragedy.

yes, I like this band a lot, and they always seemed much more honest and genuine-sounding than many of their contemporaries. I'm not sure how gothic they really are...nor how metal, as even the early stuff only has occasional outbursts of heavy guitars. Still, I definitely prfer them to a band like Theatre of Tragedy, who have definitely had a huge influence in recent years but who have always been a totally shit band, in my view, despite commendable attempts at writing lyrics influenced by classic English tragedians. TOT probably has the most "gothic" feeling out of all bands talked about here. The Gathering seem more influenced by 70s psychedelia and, later, trip-hop and such, than by gothic music, and their feeling to me has always been much more modernistic and outward-looking.

Orchid by Opeth.

I think it is very important for everyone here to check out the "Musaeum Heremeticum" EP from criminally forgotten Italian group Monumentum. This cd is of a demo they released in 1989 and it makes use of keyboards, violins, and some female vocals. They were doing gothic metal before Paradise Lost.




I know this is gloating, but I wanted to add that I am the happy owner of a longsleeve tourshirt of their first album!

This album was like the 4th real metal CD I ever bought. Very special to me.

Bloody Kisses