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Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 2347
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:10 pm 
 

I've been trying to get my friend to listen to more metal bands these days, due to the fact that I discovered that he's a huge Manowar fan. I showed him a bunch of different bands, from thrash to grind, and his choice of music was interesting. As of lately, all he will listen to is bands like Turisas and other folk metal bands. Me thinking he was into the epic feeling (Manowar, Turisas, esc), I decided to show him Behemoth. They're obviously a band with a different kind of epic feeling to them compared to Folk Metal, and I thought he would enjoy it. But he turns to me saying "Dude, I can't understand what they're saying".

Now, I know many of you guys have heard someone say this to you, and we all approach this comment differently (I thought it was weird that it came from a Turisas fan because there’s some lyrics of theirs that I cant understand without reading them). Honestly, I hardly read the lyrics to most extreme metal because I think the lyric aspect of a song is a completely different art than the music, but at the same time I would think less of vocalist that's spewing out random garble than one screaming something with meaning. Not only that, but when I do read the lyrics the song almost gets taken to a whole new level for me. For example, I was listening to “Where Dead Angels Lie” by Dissection the other day and the fact that I could understand what he was saying in the lyrics made the atmosphere of the song almost come to life. I tried my friend that the lyrics don’t really matter, but as you can probably tell I was being a complete hypocrite for telling him that.

Lyrics in extreme metal are approached a bit differently than they are in most genres. If I want to understand the lyrics, I usually have to read them while listening to the song a few times to fully understand the lyrics. It’s different in most cases of music that people can just sing along to with no problem.

My question is this; what exactly do lyrics in extreme metal do for you? Do you mostly just ignore the lyrics, or are you one to open the booklet of your CD and memorize the entire set of lyrics for every song? It takes a bit more effort to understand the lyrics in metal, and I want to know if perhaps there’s people here that put in a good amount of effort to understand them.
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Last edited by Unorthodox on Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SRX
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:56 pm
Posts: 53
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:23 pm 
 

I frankly usually don't care much about the lyrics of any band in general, clean or harsh vocals. If I am interested enough in a song I might check out the lyrics but I usually have some trouble trying to make out what a person is trying to say even if they are singing clean.

So in that sense I never cared that I couldn't understand lyrics in extreme metal.

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kybernetic
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:48 pm
Posts: 2169
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:24 pm 
 

I can't understand singing vocals either, so for me I have to read all lyrics to understand what they are saying. Maybe my hearing just isn't quite good enough, but it has always been like this for me.

However, I do read along to death metal or black metal vocals at times as well. There are periods where I have actually been quite interested in the lyrics to some bands, such as Bal-Sagoth. So yeah, I will sometimes read the lyrics along with listening to the song, and it often does bring out more emotions and adds more depth to the song.

Concept albums like Pig Destroyer's Prowler in the Yard is also a good example of quality extreme metal lyrics. Reading these lyrics while listening is something I would recommend, it makes the whole experience that much more creepy.

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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:26 pm 
 

I always attend to the lyrics. Even poorly written ones tell you much about a band and how they consider their music. When people complain about extreme vocals in general, I usuallyy compare them to percussion instruments and ask them if they would prefer rock if the drumming were more akin to that of latin dance musicc or used tympanis. My folk-loving friend is usually the one who bitches about not being able to understand words, but he seems to look at everything from a folk music angle, where lyrics are sometimes more important than actual music.
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DrSeuss
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:23 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:52 pm 
 

I guess I'm a minority when it comes to this subject, but I feel the lyrics are a huge part of the music. At least, mindset for the overall atmosphere of an album or a band in general. If a band has poorly written lyrics, I find myself not as into the music as I should be. Well, there are exceptions, when a band is really good I tend to ignore the lyrics if they're terrible, and harsh vocals are an excellent mask for bad lyrics.

I can decipher death growls fairly easily, unless they're the Defeated Sanity blend of gurgle, ultra low brutal death metal vocals.

As for your friend though, I never got the whole "I can't understand what they're saying" reason that people who don't listen to metal bring up when explaining why they don't like the music. While I'm a huge lyric buff, I feel the tone and feeling in which the vocals are executed are slightly more important than understanding what they vocalists are saying. I can't understand what some clean vocalists say all the time, doesn't make me like them any less.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:06 pm 
 

I don't usually care much about the lyrics. More often than not the lyrics are pretty cheesy and seem to detract from the power of the music. Not to mention that you can't really understand the lyrics most of the time anyway, so it seems strange that I need to look at the booklet in order to figure out what's going on.

There are lyricists I do enjoy, but I can really only do that when I can hear the lyrics well without having to refer to the booklet.

Not to mention that the genre I was most into before getting into metal was post-rock, so I'm used to no vocals at all. It's not difficult for me to just regard the vocals in metal as another instrument and disregard the lyrics.

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Karnstein_Records
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Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:12 pm 
 

Well written decipherable lyrics are a good added bonus, but not mandatory by any means.

The problem is, a lot of my favourite extreme metal vocalist would have to simplify their style for me to be able to interpret what they're saying, which would ruin it.
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KMW01
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:19 am
Posts: 83
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:34 pm 
 

Heh oh god the dreaded "wtf i don't know what they're saying this sucks" statement we've all heard from a fair amount of friends and family >_>.

But yes I think metalheads generally tend to percieve vocals as an instrument foremost, and secondly a lyrical contribution to the song. The first hint of that being that the majority of us usually refer to the person using their vocal chords as being the vocalist instead of calling them the singer, although that might just be me but the word singer makes me think of people telling stories through sung words. On the other hand the word vocals/vocalist, in my opinion, puts more emphasis on using the voice box as an instrument.

This is a great thing to our benefit however because once we view vocals as another instrument all barriers based off language are destroyed, which is part of why I think you can go pretty much anywhere in the (non-tribal) world and find a metal fanbase.

I will usually look up the lyrics of a song if I particularly like it and want to be able to scream along to it. Also if I actually buy the CD i'll always listen to the CD while reading through the lyric booklet all the way through a few times, I like to get my moneys worth =)

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Pornogrind_is_genius
Not Pornogrind (Obviously)

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:42 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:04 pm 
 

Only times when I don't care about the lyrics is when the singer is so indecipherable that no one can understand a fuck he says (all slam death and most goregrind & pornogrind etc.)
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samekh
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:36 am
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:06 pm 
 

I don't care much about being able to understand the lyrics (most of what I listen to is in languages other than my own anyway), but I generally only listen to pagan-themed bands despite often not knowing the lyrics unless they're translated.

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HexagonSunn
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:28 am
Posts: 99
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:22 pm 
 

Be like Darkspace- sing in a language "even unknown to them". :D

edit: Lyrics for Behemoth are almost as important as the music. They create the atmosphere ov weirdness that I love from Behemoth....I can understand Nergal pretty well, lyric sheet or not...

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JohnnyRebel
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:59 am
Posts: 242
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:25 pm 
 

They make me wanna kill.

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RegularK
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:24 pm
Posts: 543
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:27 pm 
 

To sum it up, lyrics in extreme metal are usually just there for image. But it depends on the band.

Dissection, yes, Cannibal Corpse, no


DrSeuss wrote:
As for your friend though, I never got the whole "I can't understand what they're saying" reason that people who don't listen to metal bring up when explaining why they don't like the music. While I'm a huge lyric buff, I feel the tone and feeling in which the vocals are executed are slightly more important than understanding what they vocalists are saying. I can't understand what some clean vocalists say all the time, doesn't make me like them any less.


I think it's because they don't understand the role of vocals in extreme metal. The vocals are more of a dynamic instrument (instead of a riff that repeat 4x, its a vocal line that has a catchy rhythm or even no repeating rhythm) that suits the music better than a vocal style that's intelligible.

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Unorthodox
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
Posts: 2347
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:36 pm 
 

samekh wrote:
I don't care much about being able to understand the lyrics (most of what I listen to is in languages other than my own anyway), but I generally only listen to pagan-themed bands despite often not knowing the lyrics unless they're translated.


That's another about my friend and anyone that says this crap about not understanding lyrics; a lot of them will listen to bands like Dir En Grey or Rammstein who I know they cannot understand any of what they are saying and don't mind one bit! It's illogical in my eyes.
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Cynical_Misanthropy
Sect of Sorrow

Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:24 am
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Location: Bay Area, California
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:24 pm 
 

almost all gore soaked lyrics i will never read just because i view it as a waste of my time (carcass and cryptopsy are the only exceptions), but besides that i will at least try to read a couple lyrics from most bands that i try out.
i'm rather found of ORIGIN's lyrics and nile's are an interesting read, almost like a history book.

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MetalHearted
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:46 pm 
 

When I'm listening to stuff like Mercyful Fate and Blind Guardian (i.e. stuff that can be understood) I take note of the lyrics at times, but I don't make a point of taking out the lyrics and following along. I just don't care that much.

With black metal I usually sorta follow along the same way I do with clean vocals, unless its something like Gorgoroth's Pentagram and I can't understand even if I try.

With death metal... No. I don't try at all. More so if its something like Cumbeast. I don't really relate to gore or anti christian lyrics, so I don't make an attempt to listen for them. I don't care if they are there so long as the music is good, I just don't really bother.
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Ina_Dingir_Xul
Metalhead

Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 8:44 am
Posts: 444
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:00 pm 
 

I like to know what the vocalist is actually saying, so whenever I get a new album I pop the CD in the player and get out the lyrical booklet. Then I read along, and somehow my mind eventually becomes conditioned such that whenever I hear the song, I can decipher perfectly what the vocalist is saying. The only band I have had a real problem doing so is the band Nafrat. The vocals on that album is so damn low and guttural that I can't tell a single thing. Other than that I like to know the lyrics so it "completes" the feel of the song, rather than indecipherable growling.

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MOTGLchris
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:08 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:47 pm 
 

Since I started listening to metal, I tend to get the "You can't understand anything they're saying!" response.
I always say one thing:
If music's only purpose was to listen to what the lyricist is saying, music would consist of people speaking. Nothing more.

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AngelofDeath777
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:16 pm
Posts: 73
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:47 am 
 

The fact that the lyrics are not understandable is what most of the adults I know complain about with regards to metal. Many of them say that the lyrics are the most important part of a song and it makes no sense if you can't understand them.

The only extreme metal musician I have ever heard say that the music is there to support the lyrics and not vice versa was Mille Petroza, and I have to say I agree with him, as far as my own songwriting goes. But I understand some bands are not trying to get any sort of message across, but are simply creating a picture with the music, which is just as valid and enjoyable.

Poor lyrics usually can and do ruin songs for me.

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ripper_of_reaper
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:30 am
Posts: 61
Location: Bangladesh
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:16 am 
 

I read along with the lyrics of every song I listen for the first time. As I don't listen to clean vocals much, I mostly listen to melodic death metal I can understand 80% of what they are singing after reading the lyrics once. If I really love the lyrics I read along a few more times and I can understand the full song then. If I don't like it, I let it go. I think lyrics are as important as any other instrument used in a song. Lyrics play a major role to express the song. I listen to metal because I find the lyrics very interesting and they do cover a lot of different topics and themes through their lyrics. I think every song has an emotion or a message and without lyrics it's impossible to express it. So, I do read along the lyrics. I have been able to know many new things by reading lyrics as well. Except of brutal death and goregrind I think every band gives a lot of emphasis on their lyrics and they shoul be read at least once.

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DeathOfSeasons_1221
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:05 am
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:09 am 
 

I don't really care about the lyrics since most bands have terrible lyrics. However, if the lyrics are good (I really like Virgin Black and Cradle Of Filth's lyrics) then I'll read them and pay attention to them.
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screamingstatue
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:06 am
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:54 am 
 

Sometimes indecipherable vocals can get annoying, but I always find when you DO take the time to look up and follow the lyrics of those type of songs, it's more rewarding. Listening to the music and the rhythm of the vocals first, and then once you've really begun to enjoy the song *then* realising what the lyrics are all about is a very enjoyable experience for me.

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ripper_of_reaper
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Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:30 am
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:30 am 
 

DeathOfSeasons_1221 wrote:
I don't really care about the lyrics since most bands have terrible lyrics. However, if the lyrics are good (I really like Virgin Black and Cradle Of Filth's lyrics) then I'll read them and pay attention to them.

That means you like goth lyrics.

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DeathOfSeasons_1221
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:05 am
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:55 am 
 

ripper_of_reaper wrote:
DeathOfSeasons_1221 wrote:
I don't really care about the lyrics since most bands have terrible lyrics. However, if the lyrics are good (I really like Virgin Black and Cradle Of Filth's lyrics) then I'll read them and pay attention to them.

That means you like goth lyrics.


Better than liking over-dramatic, everyone hates me, I'm so angry Metalcore lyrics so I'm happy.
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Nintendevil
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:52 am 
 

Lyrics are filler. They are different to keep the song interesting. I view vocals as an instrument and nothing else. Do you think bands really make money for the lyrics they sell? That's what rap is for (it being much the opposite.)
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kybernetic
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:48 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:05 pm 
 

Nintendevil wrote:
Lyrics are filler. They are different to keep the song interesting. I view vocals as an instrument and nothing else. Do you think bands really make money for the lyrics they sell? That's what rap is for (it being much the opposite.)


Funny how most of rap lyrics are terrible, and thats all the music is in rap.

And bands like Disembowelment probably could get money for their lyrics, as well as Bal-Sagoth. Even Lord Worm lyrics are very entertaining. There are plenty of good lyrics in metal, even death and black metal.

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Nintendevil
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:27 pm 
 

DrummingEdge133 wrote:
Nintendevil wrote:
Lyrics are filler. They are different to keep the song interesting. I view vocals as an instrument and nothing else. Do you think bands really make money for the lyrics they sell? That's what rap is for (it being much the opposite.)


Funny how most of rap lyrics are terrible, and thats all the music is in rap.

And bands like Disembowelment probably could get money for their lyrics, as well as Bal-Sagoth. Even Lord Worm lyrics are very entertaining. There are plenty of good lyrics in metal, even death and black metal.


Some of them are. The Jamie fox or whatever crap with blame it on the alcohol is just failure (along with other commercialised garbage), but there are things lyrically you just wont hear in metal.
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DrSeuss
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:11 pm 
 

Nintendevil wrote:
Lyrics are filler. They are different to keep the song interesting. I view vocals as an instrument and nothing else. Do you think bands really make money for the lyrics they sell? That's what rap is for (it being much the opposite.)


Wrong.

Language is derived from vocal music that ancient man once used to convey messages, much in the same way primates use vocals in different pitches to convey meaning. Despite how percussive extreme metal vocals are, language (ie; lyrics) still are a huge part of the music when vocals are involved.

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Biedrik
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:21 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:50 pm 
 

In extreme metal I generally don't care too much about lyrics. If they're cheesy or stupid I won't care. I can't really understand them anyways. However, I always like it if there are good lyrics, along to good music. It's not necessary, but it is nice.

In metal where the vocals are actual singing, lyrics matter a bit more. I'll almost never turn away a band for their lyrics (I wouldn't be able to listen Rhapsody if I did), but like with extreme metal, I do prefer to have good lyrics. Simply, I view the music like a prime cut of meat, and good lyrics like the spices. Without the spices, it's still very good meat (music), and will taste delicious. But, with the spices (lyrics), it can taste even better.

However, since in extreme metal, lyrics are hard to understand anyways, they don't matter as much to me. Extreme vocals have their own strength that is wholly independent from the lyrics. For example, in Decade of Therion by Behemoth, I HAVE NO IDEA what Nergal is talking about in the beginning, but I love the way his voice sounds. The best thing that I can guess at is "LAPO, PROTOSS, GOGO LEMONA." Somehow, I don't think that's quite right.

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Rottenrectum
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:41 pm
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:55 pm 
 

I rarely care for lyrics unless they tell a story, criticize an element of society (without being bitchy) or if I find it poetic. If they're generic violence, gore or satanic, the three most common subjects in extreme metal, I don't care. I would never bother reading a Cannibal Corpse booklet for instance.
Good lyrics for me gives vivid pictures in my head. Even if I don't really understand the meaning behind the lyrics, it gives the songs a greater depth. Like Thorns Of Crimson Death by Dissection, I like the lyrics in that song but I don't understand the meaning.
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heavymetalbackwards
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:49 am
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:09 pm 
 

The problem with not being able to hear the lyrics in extreme metal is why the band I am in is considering changing genres from death to heavy/thrash. Indeed, this is a relevant issue.

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innerbeing
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:11 pm 
 

I only pay attention to the lyrics if they're worth paying attention to.

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Nintendevil
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 3:57 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:51 pm 
 

DrSeuss wrote:
Nintendevil wrote:
Lyrics are filler. They are different to keep the song interesting. I view vocals as an instrument and nothing else. Do you think bands really make money for the lyrics they sell? That's what rap is for (it being much the opposite.)


Wrong.

Language is derived from vocal music that ancient man once used to convey messages, much in the same way primates use vocals in different pitches to convey meaning. Despite how percussive extreme metal vocals are, language (ie; lyrics) still are a huge part of the music when vocals are involved.


Anaal Nathrakh never published their lyrics, and regardless, a lot of people love them. Further, People have chosen to like or dislike them because of their vocal styles. I for one, dislike the core-ish style, but the lyrics might be brutal as hell. Opprobrium is a Christian band, with lyrical themes like "massacre of the Unborn". I laughed my ass off when I read the lyrics, but I think it's a pure classic and criminally under-ratedsong as I did before I knew them.
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Eurnonymous
Streetcleaner

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:02 am 
 

i always prefer a band i'm listening to to have lyrics about things interesting to me, and that are well thought out. usually i can't understand them, but if something peaks my interest then i will check the lyrics out.

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Dante2006
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:19 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:54 am 
 

I personally enjoy not being able to understand the lyrics easily. It makes the song a lot more interesting the more you listen to it, as you slowly decipher each piece of the song. It makes it kinda like a puzzle, and adds a certain level of personal progression to the music. That's just my thoughts though.

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ngwoo
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:10 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:11 am 
 

Bad lyrics won't ruin a great song, and great lyrics won't save a bad song. I think most of us can agree on this, correct?

Even people who say "I hate metal because I can't understand it" will agree with this, use it to trap them.

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Wretchedspirit
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:57 pm
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Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:56 am 
 

I like to know what the lyrics are to the song I am listening to and if the lyrics are deep and meaningful they add a whole 'nother dimension to the music. They make you view the band in a different light, as though they really take what they do seriously and that is important.

Nintendevil wrote:
Lyrics are filler. They are different to keep the song interesting. I view vocals as an instrument and nothing else. Do you think bands really make money for the lyrics they sell? That's what rap is for (it being much the opposite.)


You have no idea what you are talking about.

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TheUglySoldier
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 3:44 am
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:09 am 
 

I think lyrics are quite important, and find that there is more room to move around with growls/shrieks.

What I do find is there is more freedom with growled vocals, at least in my opinion. More melodic vocals often seem to need to make more "sense" in structure (If that makes sense) whereas with extreme vocals seem to be able to have a more disconnected feeling and still work. I'm not sure if I've worded that right at all, but hopefully you understand what I mean.
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heavymetalbackwards
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:49 am
Posts: 1940
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:32 am 
 

TheUglySoldier wrote:
I think lyrics are quite important, and find that there is more room to move around with growls/shrieks.

What I do find is there is more freedom with growled vocals, at least in my opinion. More melodic vocals often seem to need to make more "sense" in structure (If that makes sense) whereas with extreme vocals seem to be able to have a more disconnected feeling and still work. I'm not sure if I've worded that right at all, but hopefully you understand what I mean.



I think I know what you're saying, and it applies not only to extreme vocals but also aggressive or shouted vocals as well (like most thrash, and also a lot of speed metal.)

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symbolic1188
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:02 pm
Posts: 94
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:04 am 
 

Lyrics are whatever the band makes of them. Chuck Schuldiner not only made brilliant music, but wrote some very nice lyrics as well. ("Perennial Quest" and "A Moment of Clarity" are great) Others, like Martyr, make really great music but don't put as much into the vocals. They are both comprehensive, but have different approaches. It often depends what the individual has to say. As long as the lyrics aren't incredibly stupid, it should not detract from the music. (Children of Bodom write lyrics that bad) The point of metal is obviously the music over the lyrics as stated before, but that doesn't mean that they can't be important too.

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