Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives
https://forum.metal-archives.com/

Why can't people judge Heartwork on Melodeath standards?
https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49751		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  ScratchMyBack [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Why can't people judge Heartwork on Melodeath standards?
I see that a lot of people hates Carcass because of Heartwork. The common reason why they hate Heartwork was because it isn't gore-grind like they did before. However, the point here is that it isn't a gore-grind album so why judge it with a gore grind mind set. It's melodeath and it's good, enjoyable melodeath. I don't see what's so horrible about it. It's catchy, it's still metal and it's still hard hittin' music that I can fucking headbang to.
Author:  HowDisgusting [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's not that great an album regardless. Far too formulaic, and most of the slower songs are garbage.
Author:  _Aargh [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
You can judge it with a Carcass mind set, and by those standards the album is really boring and way too polished.
Author:  ~Guest 3496 [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
Is there really such a thing as a "Carcass mindset"? No two of their albums are alike. It's not like there was ever a firmly established "Carcass sound" that they pursued for a long period of time. And what are "melodeath" standards? There are several different strains of "melodeath" (I dislike using the term anyway).

Heartwork is actually my favorite Carcass album, though I enjoy all of them (not equally of course). I think it's got a great heavy sound and really catchy tunes. The strangest criticism I've heard of it is calling it sterile. It's not "filthy" (whatever that means), but if sterile is meant to suggest it's kinda bland or unenergetic, I think parts of Symphonies of Sickness and much of Swansong are way more sterile than Heartwork.
Author:  Callum_Carcass [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well for one, Bill Steer is no where near a mic...
Author:  _Aargh [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
PhantomOTO wrote:
Is there really such a thing as a "Carcass mindset"?

You can look at the album as a continuation to their earlier albums.
Author:  ~Guest 3496 [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
_Aargh wrote:
PhantomOTO wrote:
Is there really such a thing as a "Carcass mindset"?

You can look at the album as a continuation to their earlier albums.

Yeah, but there's not much continuity among the albums preceding it. Each one was a pretty big change. One could just as easily portray Heartwork as a logical progression as one could portray it as an aberration.
Author:  Shadoeking [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
I like Heartwork actually, but I don't really care all that much for their grind days. I still like Necroticism the best though.
Author:  _Aargh [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
PhantomOTO wrote:
Yeah, but there's not much continuity among the albums preceding it. Each one was a pretty big change. One could just as easily portray Heartwork as a logical progression as one could portray it as an aberration.

I'd say Carcass' progression has always been logical. It's just that on Heartwork they finally lost everything that made the band good in the first place, even though I'm not a huge fan of Necroticism either.
Author:  ~Guest 3496 [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ah, that's sensible.
Author:  obZen [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
HowDisgusting wrote:
It's not that great an album regardless. Far too formulaic, and most of the slower songs are garbage.


Some of you act like being formulaic is a bad thing. Yes, being formulaic is limiting. But you sacrifice free structure for good flow. And while I don't listen to Heartwork much (or perhaps at all) nowadays, by no means is it bad.

At the very least, no other record sounds like it. And for those who hate Heartwork, I would take it that you could easily compare it to a turd. That just because it's a different color than usual doesn't make it worthwhile and doesn't mean you should put it in a frame and hang it on your wall.
Author:  zervyx [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
I listen to melodic death metal and... from Carcass I only like Heartwork, still some of the songs there have boring slow parts that I can't stand, take the songs "This mortal coil" or "Heartwork" as example, very cool songs that have "boring as hell" slow pieces in the middle. thats my personal opinion. I dont see that album as great melodic death metal.
Author:  Crick [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Heartwork is a horrible, boring and terribly generic album. It's not that it isn't goregrind, it's that the band didn't seem to care and I KNOW they can do better. Its a bloody awful dissapointment of a release with maybe one or two catchy songs on it followed by a long stream of pointless bullshit and political leanings.

Fuck off, Carcass.
Author:  Abominatrix [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
HowDisgusting wrote:
It's not that great an album regardless. Far too formulaic, and most of the slower songs are garbage.


Precisely. I don't think you'll find that most people judge the album "by goregrind standards" .. that'd just be foolish, and you'll notice that "Necroticism" doesn't get nearly as much flack, even from people whoo fellate "Reek of Putrefaction". "Heartwork" has its moments (mostly the title track and "Death Certificate") but you can't tell me that a song like "No Love Lost" isn't incredibly fucking lazy for this band.
Author:  red_blood_inside [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
PhantomOTO wrote:
Is there really such a thing as a "Carcass mindset"? No two of their albums are alike. It's not like there was ever a firmly established "Carcass sound" that they pursued for a long period of time. And what are "melodeath" standards? There are several different strains of "melodeath" (I dislike using the term anyway).

Heartwork is actually my favorite Carcass album, though I enjoy all of them (not equally of course). I think it's got a great heavy sound and really catchy tunes. The strangest criticism I've heard of it is calling it sterile. It's not "filthy" (whatever that means), but if sterile is meant to suggest it's kinda bland or unenergetic, I think parts of Symphonies of Sickness and much of Swansong are way more sterile than Heartwork.


My thoughts exactly, Heartwork is a great album, Carcass has always been innovative and original, they, along with bands as Napal Death were pioneers of gore/grind, were solid when it came to DM (Necroticism.. isa good example) and once again got tired of playing the same thing, so they "invented" Melodeath. After that, tons of bands included melody to their stuff. SO, I guess Heartwork is not just a great album (my Carcass fave) but is also groundbreaking and as every Carcass release, is innovative.
Author:  ~Guest 3496 [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Crick wrote:
generic

Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?
Author:  Crick [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
PhantomOTO wrote:
Crick wrote:
generic

Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?


When I say generic, I don't take into account the time period. I may in fact be using the word incorrectly. I just find some music (or indeed any creation) can instantly give off a generic feeling, regardless of whether or not it's been done before.
Author:  ~Guest 3496 [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
That makes sense, but it should be taken into account that Heartwork was one of, if not the, first album(s) of its kind when considering what adjectives to throw out at it.
Author:  Crick [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
I suppose you're right. Still, the album isn't really mind-numbing (though it does get boring at points), and it isn't really completely bad per-say. Like others have said, the title track is good for example. But it just feels generic and inoffensive. Passive almost. Regardless of being one (or the first) of its kind, its influence can be heard in the equally if not more generic and inoffensive melodeath work of today.
Author:  obZen [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Is it just me or was Heartwork considered a classic metal album just 5 years ago, and every year since then, more and more people on forums seem to have unanimously agreed that Heartwork isn't good or influential anymore?

It's hard not to feel like a lot of forumgoers seem to have stolen their opinion from a rather convincing and vocal minority and treated it like it was the "right" opinion.
Author:  Abominatrix [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
obZen wrote:
Is it just me or was Heartwork considered a classic metal album just 5 years ago, and every year since then, more and more people on forums seem to have unanimously agreed that Heartwork isn't good or influential anymore?

It's hard not to feel like a lot of forumgoers seem to have stolen their opinion from a rather convincing and vocal minority and treated it like it was the "right" opinion.


It's just you. :lol: This kind of thing always crops up.
Author:  HowDisgusting [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
PhantomOTO wrote:
Crick wrote:
generic

Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?
Can't tell you that, but Kreator released a very similar album just 3 years earlier.
Author:  obZen [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Perhaps you're right :p However, you can never underestimate the level of conformity that permeates the seemingly free-thinker veil of any metal community. Once some veteran with 10,000 posts proclaims that Abbath's balls are sacred, every 2nd person starts believing it. Just varies from board to board. Thanks to one guy, people start to idolize that band.


Anyways, I actually happen to find Heartwork stale these days. But, it had a plethora of good, memorable riffs. Unfortunately, most of those memorable riffs are essentially leads. And if you remove the melody in Heartwork, I think it'd fall apart. The rhythm is unfortunately dull.
Author:  Abominatrix [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
HowDisgusting wrote:
PhantomOTO wrote:
Crick wrote:
generic

Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?
Can't tell you that, but Kreator released a very similar album just 3 years earlier.


Hah .. and I thought I was the only one who noticed how similar the title track sounded to "People of the Lie".
Author:  HowDisgusting [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Abominatrix wrote:
HowDisgusting wrote:
PhantomOTO wrote:
Crick wrote:
generic

Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?
Can't tell you that, but Kreator released a very similar album just 3 years earlier.


Hah .. and I thought I was the only one who noticed how similar the title track sounded to "People of the Lie".
Absolutely not.
Author:  brightfield [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why can't people judge Heartwork on Melodeath standards?
ScratchMyBack wrote:
I see that a lot of people hates Carcass because of Heartwork. The common reason why they hate Heartwork was because it isn't gore-grind like they did before. However, the point here is that it isn't a gore-grind album so why judge it with a gore grind mind set. It's melodeath and it's good, enjoyable melodeath. I don't see what's so horrible about it. It's catchy, it's still metal and it's still hard hittin' music that I can fucking headbang to.


I don't hate Carcass because of Heartwork. I just hate Heartwork and everything after it. I love pre-Heartwork Carcass.
Author:  Noktorn [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's very easy to judge Heartwork in melodeath terms and dislike it. I find it pretty boring.
Author:  Children_Of_The_Sea [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
I enjoy heartwork very much, but Necroticism is my favorite. I think that reek of putrefaction sucks tbh.
Author:  Eurnonymous [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
it's not a bad album if you like more than just grindcore
Author:  Noktorn [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Eurnonymous wrote:
it's not a bad album if you like more than just grindcore


Pfffft, do you say that about every album people like? So if I dislike Hammerheart, would I think it's a good album if I liked more than just black metal?
Author:  ~Guest 3496 [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
HowDisgusting wrote:
Abominatrix wrote:
HowDisgusting wrote:
PhantomOTO wrote:
Crick wrote:
generic

Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?
Can't tell you that, but Kreator released a very similar album just 3 years earlier.


Hah .. and I thought I was the only one who noticed how similar the title track sounded to "People of the Lie".
Absolutely not.

Pssh, yeah, there's that one riff.
Author:  spectreofdeath [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
the band stopped being relevant after Necroticism, but thats just me

then again, I don't like 95% of melo-death, so what do I know?
Author:  Uncolored [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
PhantomOTO wrote:
Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?


if you mean death metal+iron maiden dark tranquillity beat carcass. if I'm not mistaken skydancer came out before heartwork
Author:  spectreofdeath [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Children_Of_The_Sea wrote:
I think that reek of putrefaction sucks tbh.


its an acquired taste, I like it, but its not for everybody.
Author:  ~Guest 3496 [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Uncolored wrote:
PhantomOTO wrote:
Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?


if you mean death metal+iron maiden dark tranquillity beat carcass. if I'm not mistaken skydancer came out before heartwork

Yeah, but come on. Skydancer (which I also like a lot) and Heartwork are very different approaches.
Author:  obZen [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
spectreofdeath wrote:
the band stopped being relevant after Necroticism, but thats just me

then again, I don't like 95% of melo-death, so what do I know?


What do you mean by relevant? I've always been a little confused by that term. Is it implying that a band's sound is outdated? Uninspired? Not as good as other bands after a certain album? If that's the case, then that's douchnozzlery of the highest degree.
Author:  spectreofdeath [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
obZen wrote:
spectreofdeath wrote:
the band stopped being relevant after Necroticism, but thats just me

then again, I don't like 95% of melo-death, so what do I know?


What do you mean by relevant? I've always been a little confused by that term. Is it implying that a band's sound is outdated? Uninspired? Not as good as other bands after a certain album? If that's the case, then that's douchnozzlery of the highest degree.


they signed with Columbia and started making half-assed death metal is what I mean. Reek was too primitive for its own good, but on Symphonies and Necroticism they really shined as songwriters and players. Heartwork is just boring by the book death metal, nothing special at all.
Author:  LordGothic [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Heartwork doesnt even sound like a Melodeath album to me, sounds like a watered down melodic thrash album, BUT i do still like it, title track has some awesome riffage
Author:  obZen [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
spectreofdeath wrote:
obZen wrote:
spectreofdeath wrote:
the band stopped being relevant after Necroticism, but thats just me

then again, I don't like 95% of melo-death, so what do I know?


What do you mean by relevant? I've always been a little confused by that term. Is it implying that a band's sound is outdated? Uninspired? Not as good as other bands after a certain album? If that's the case, then that's douchnozzlery of the highest degree.


they signed with Columbia and started making half-assed death metal is what I mean. Reek was too primitive for its own good, but on Symphonies and Necroticism they really shined as songwriters and players. Heartwork is just boring by the book death metal, nothing special at all.


I thought people would have the decency not to go by the death metal book with Heartwork. It's melodeath. ololol.

But, really. What I'm really trying to say is that you may call the black homeless man who's stealing your garbage crazy, but he may think that he's got ahold of some treasure that you carelessly left on your front lawn. Music is personal anyways. One man's boring is another man's genius.

Take Warning for example. Some people think that Robert Lowe is a vocal genius. Others find everything about the band bland. And there are many bands like this where we are either in their defense or their support, and the opposing side looks like the crazy homeless black man.
Author:  Wrath_Of_War [ Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm not going to lie....I've only heard the title track, and I think it's pretty awesome. It's nothing like classic Carcass, but I still find it enjoyable. If I enjoy the title track, is the rest of the album worth checking out?
Page 1 of 3 All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/