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ScratchMyBack
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:04 am
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Location: Malaysia
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:32 pm 
 

I see that a lot of people hates Carcass because of Heartwork. The common reason why they hate Heartwork was because it isn't gore-grind like they did before. However, the point here is that it isn't a gore-grind album so why judge it with a gore grind mind set. It's melodeath and it's good, enjoyable melodeath. I don't see what's so horrible about it. It's catchy, it's still metal and it's still hard hittin' music that I can fucking headbang to.
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HowDisgusting
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:33 pm 
 

It's not that great an album regardless. Far too formulaic, and most of the slower songs are garbage.
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_Aargh
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:11 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:35 pm 
 

You can judge it with a Carcass mind set, and by those standards the album is really boring and way too polished.

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PhantomOTO
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:19 am
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:41 pm 
 

Is there really such a thing as a "Carcass mindset"? No two of their albums are alike. It's not like there was ever a firmly established "Carcass sound" that they pursued for a long period of time. And what are "melodeath" standards? There are several different strains of "melodeath" (I dislike using the term anyway).

Heartwork is actually my favorite Carcass album, though I enjoy all of them (not equally of course). I think it's got a great heavy sound and really catchy tunes. The strangest criticism I've heard of it is calling it sterile. It's not "filthy" (whatever that means), but if sterile is meant to suggest it's kinda bland or unenergetic, I think parts of Symphonies of Sickness and much of Swansong are way more sterile than Heartwork.

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Callum_Carcass
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:27 am
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:48 pm 
 

Well for one, Bill Steer is no where near a mic...

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_Aargh
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:11 pm
Posts: 499
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:49 pm 
 

PhantomOTO wrote:
Is there really such a thing as a "Carcass mindset"?

You can look at the album as a continuation to their earlier albums.

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PhantomOTO
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:19 am
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:56 pm 
 

_Aargh wrote:
PhantomOTO wrote:
Is there really such a thing as a "Carcass mindset"?

You can look at the album as a continuation to their earlier albums.

Yeah, but there's not much continuity among the albums preceding it. Each one was a pretty big change. One could just as easily portray Heartwork as a logical progression as one could portray it as an aberration.

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Shadoeking
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:34 am
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:07 pm 
 

I like Heartwork actually, but I don't really care all that much for their grind days. I still like Necroticism the best though.

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_Aargh
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:11 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:29 pm 
 

PhantomOTO wrote:
Yeah, but there's not much continuity among the albums preceding it. Each one was a pretty big change. One could just as easily portray Heartwork as a logical progression as one could portray it as an aberration.

I'd say Carcass' progression has always been logical. It's just that on Heartwork they finally lost everything that made the band good in the first place, even though I'm not a huge fan of Necroticism either.

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PhantomOTO
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:32 pm 
 

Ah, that's sensible.

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obZen
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 3:32 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:23 pm 
 

HowDisgusting wrote:
It's not that great an album regardless. Far too formulaic, and most of the slower songs are garbage.


Some of you act like being formulaic is a bad thing. Yes, being formulaic is limiting. But you sacrifice free structure for good flow. And while I don't listen to Heartwork much (or perhaps at all) nowadays, by no means is it bad.

At the very least, no other record sounds like it. And for those who hate Heartwork, I would take it that you could easily compare it to a turd. That just because it's a different color than usual doesn't make it worthwhile and doesn't mean you should put it in a frame and hang it on your wall.

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zervyx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:21 pm
Posts: 172
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:33 pm 
 

I listen to melodic death metal and... from Carcass I only like Heartwork, still some of the songs there have boring slow parts that I can't stand, take the songs "This mortal coil" or "Heartwork" as example, very cool songs that have "boring as hell" slow pieces in the middle. thats my personal opinion. I dont see that album as great melodic death metal.

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Crick
Despised by 17 Corners of the Universe

Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:11 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:35 pm 
 

Heartwork is a horrible, boring and terribly generic album. It's not that it isn't goregrind, it's that the band didn't seem to care and I KNOW they can do better. Its a bloody awful dissapointment of a release with maybe one or two catchy songs on it followed by a long stream of pointless bullshit and political leanings.

Fuck off, Carcass.
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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:37 pm 
 

HowDisgusting wrote:
It's not that great an album regardless. Far too formulaic, and most of the slower songs are garbage.


Precisely. I don't think you'll find that most people judge the album "by goregrind standards" .. that'd just be foolish, and you'll notice that "Necroticism" doesn't get nearly as much flack, even from people whoo fellate "Reek of Putrefaction". "Heartwork" has its moments (mostly the title track and "Death Certificate") but you can't tell me that a song like "No Love Lost" isn't incredibly fucking lazy for this band.
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red_blood_inside
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:20 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:46 pm 
 

PhantomOTO wrote:
Is there really such a thing as a "Carcass mindset"? No two of their albums are alike. It's not like there was ever a firmly established "Carcass sound" that they pursued for a long period of time. And what are "melodeath" standards? There are several different strains of "melodeath" (I dislike using the term anyway).

Heartwork is actually my favorite Carcass album, though I enjoy all of them (not equally of course). I think it's got a great heavy sound and really catchy tunes. The strangest criticism I've heard of it is calling it sterile. It's not "filthy" (whatever that means), but if sterile is meant to suggest it's kinda bland or unenergetic, I think parts of Symphonies of Sickness and much of Swansong are way more sterile than Heartwork.


My thoughts exactly, Heartwork is a great album, Carcass has always been innovative and original, they, along with bands as Napal Death were pioneers of gore/grind, were solid when it came to DM (Necroticism.. isa good example) and once again got tired of playing the same thing, so they "invented" Melodeath. After that, tons of bands included melody to their stuff. SO, I guess Heartwork is not just a great album (my Carcass fave) but is also groundbreaking and as every Carcass release, is innovative.
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PhantomOTO
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:48 pm 
 

Crick wrote:
generic

Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?

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Crick
Despised by 17 Corners of the Universe

Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:11 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:50 pm 
 

PhantomOTO wrote:
Crick wrote:
generic

Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?


When I say generic, I don't take into account the time period. I may in fact be using the word incorrectly. I just find some music (or indeed any creation) can instantly give off a generic feeling, regardless of whether or not it's been done before.
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PhantomOTO
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:51 pm 
 

That makes sense, but it should be taken into account that Heartwork was one of, if not the, first album(s) of its kind when considering what adjectives to throw out at it.

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Crick
Despised by 17 Corners of the Universe

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:55 pm 
 

I suppose you're right. Still, the album isn't really mind-numbing (though it does get boring at points), and it isn't really completely bad per-say. Like others have said, the title track is good for example. But it just feels generic and inoffensive. Passive almost. Regardless of being one (or the first) of its kind, its influence can be heard in the equally if not more generic and inoffensive melodeath work of today.
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obZen
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 3:32 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:57 pm 
 

Is it just me or was Heartwork considered a classic metal album just 5 years ago, and every year since then, more and more people on forums seem to have unanimously agreed that Heartwork isn't good or influential anymore?

It's hard not to feel like a lot of forumgoers seem to have stolen their opinion from a rather convincing and vocal minority and treated it like it was the "right" opinion.

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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:01 pm 
 

obZen wrote:
Is it just me or was Heartwork considered a classic metal album just 5 years ago, and every year since then, more and more people on forums seem to have unanimously agreed that Heartwork isn't good or influential anymore?

It's hard not to feel like a lot of forumgoers seem to have stolen their opinion from a rather convincing and vocal minority and treated it like it was the "right" opinion.


It's just you. :lol: This kind of thing always crops up.
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HowDisgusting
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Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:39 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:02 pm 
 

PhantomOTO wrote:
Crick wrote:
generic

Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?
Can't tell you that, but Kreator released a very similar album just 3 years earlier.
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obZen
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 3:32 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:06 pm 
 

Perhaps you're right :p However, you can never underestimate the level of conformity that permeates the seemingly free-thinker veil of any metal community. Once some veteran with 10,000 posts proclaims that Abbath's balls are sacred, every 2nd person starts believing it. Just varies from board to board. Thanks to one guy, people start to idolize that band.


Anyways, I actually happen to find Heartwork stale these days. But, it had a plethora of good, memorable riffs. Unfortunately, most of those memorable riffs are essentially leads. And if you remove the melody in Heartwork, I think it'd fall apart. The rhythm is unfortunately dull.

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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:10 pm 
 

HowDisgusting wrote:
PhantomOTO wrote:
Crick wrote:
generic

Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?
Can't tell you that, but Kreator released a very similar album just 3 years earlier.


Hah .. and I thought I was the only one who noticed how similar the title track sounded to "People of the Lie".
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HowDisgusting
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:39 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:11 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
HowDisgusting wrote:
PhantomOTO wrote:
Crick wrote:
generic

Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?
Can't tell you that, but Kreator released a very similar album just 3 years earlier.


Hah .. and I thought I was the only one who noticed how similar the title track sounded to "People of the Lie".
Absolutely not.
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brightfield
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:47 pm
Posts: 541
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:14 pm 
 

ScratchMyBack wrote:
I see that a lot of people hates Carcass because of Heartwork. The common reason why they hate Heartwork was because it isn't gore-grind like they did before. However, the point here is that it isn't a gore-grind album so why judge it with a gore grind mind set. It's melodeath and it's good, enjoyable melodeath. I don't see what's so horrible about it. It's catchy, it's still metal and it's still hard hittin' music that I can fucking headbang to.


I don't hate Carcass because of Heartwork. I just hate Heartwork and everything after it. I love pre-Heartwork Carcass.
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Noktorn
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:34 pm 
 

It's very easy to judge Heartwork in melodeath terms and dislike it. I find it pretty boring.
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Children_Of_The_Sea
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Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:26 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:36 pm 
 

I enjoy heartwork very much, but Necroticism is my favorite. I think that reek of putrefaction sucks tbh.

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Eurnonymous
Streetcleaner

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:40 pm 
 

it's not a bad album if you like more than just grindcore

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Noktorn
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:45 pm 
 

Eurnonymous wrote:
it's not a bad album if you like more than just grindcore


Pfffft, do you say that about every album people like? So if I dislike Hammerheart, would I think it's a good album if I liked more than just black metal?
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PhantomOTO
Exterminator 666 Does Not Answer

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:19 am
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:18 pm 
 

HowDisgusting wrote:
Abominatrix wrote:
HowDisgusting wrote:
PhantomOTO wrote:
Crick wrote:
generic

Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?
Can't tell you that, but Kreator released a very similar album just 3 years earlier.


Hah .. and I thought I was the only one who noticed how similar the title track sounded to "People of the Lie".
Absolutely not.

Pssh, yeah, there's that one riff.

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spectreofdeath
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:38 pm
Posts: 346
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:57 pm 
 

the band stopped being relevant after Necroticism, but thats just me

then again, I don't like 95% of melo-death, so what do I know?

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Uncolored
Death Metal Fundamentalist

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:19 am
Posts: 755
Location: Cagliari/Italy
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:02 pm 
 

PhantomOTO wrote:
Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?


if you mean death metal+iron maiden dark tranquillity beat carcass. if I'm not mistaken skydancer came out before heartwork
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spectreofdeath
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:02 pm 
 

Children_Of_The_Sea wrote:
I think that reek of putrefaction sucks tbh.


its an acquired taste, I like it, but its not for everybody.

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PhantomOTO
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:33 pm 
 

Uncolored wrote:
PhantomOTO wrote:
Who else really sounded like that in 1993/94?


if you mean death metal+iron maiden dark tranquillity beat carcass. if I'm not mistaken skydancer came out before heartwork

Yeah, but come on. Skydancer (which I also like a lot) and Heartwork are very different approaches.

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obZen
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 3:32 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:47 pm 
 

spectreofdeath wrote:
the band stopped being relevant after Necroticism, but thats just me

then again, I don't like 95% of melo-death, so what do I know?


What do you mean by relevant? I've always been a little confused by that term. Is it implying that a band's sound is outdated? Uninspired? Not as good as other bands after a certain album? If that's the case, then that's douchnozzlery of the highest degree.

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spectreofdeath
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Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:38 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:05 pm 
 

obZen wrote:
spectreofdeath wrote:
the band stopped being relevant after Necroticism, but thats just me

then again, I don't like 95% of melo-death, so what do I know?


What do you mean by relevant? I've always been a little confused by that term. Is it implying that a band's sound is outdated? Uninspired? Not as good as other bands after a certain album? If that's the case, then that's douchnozzlery of the highest degree.


they signed with Columbia and started making half-assed death metal is what I mean. Reek was too primitive for its own good, but on Symphonies and Necroticism they really shined as songwriters and players. Heartwork is just boring by the book death metal, nothing special at all.

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LordGothic
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:21 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:31 pm 
 

Heartwork doesnt even sound like a Melodeath album to me, sounds like a watered down melodic thrash album, BUT i do still like it, title track has some awesome riffage

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obZen
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 3:32 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:35 pm 
 

spectreofdeath wrote:
obZen wrote:
spectreofdeath wrote:
the band stopped being relevant after Necroticism, but thats just me

then again, I don't like 95% of melo-death, so what do I know?


What do you mean by relevant? I've always been a little confused by that term. Is it implying that a band's sound is outdated? Uninspired? Not as good as other bands after a certain album? If that's the case, then that's douchnozzlery of the highest degree.


they signed with Columbia and started making half-assed death metal is what I mean. Reek was too primitive for its own good, but on Symphonies and Necroticism they really shined as songwriters and players. Heartwork is just boring by the book death metal, nothing special at all.


I thought people would have the decency not to go by the death metal book with Heartwork. It's melodeath. ololol.

But, really. What I'm really trying to say is that you may call the black homeless man who's stealing your garbage crazy, but he may think that he's got ahold of some treasure that you carelessly left on your front lawn. Music is personal anyways. One man's boring is another man's genius.

Take Warning for example. Some people think that Robert Lowe is a vocal genius. Others find everything about the band bland. And there are many bands like this where we are either in their defense or their support, and the opposing side looks like the crazy homeless black man.

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Wrath_Of_War
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:56 pm 
 

I'm not going to lie....I've only heard the title track, and I think it's pretty awesome. It's nothing like classic Carcass, but I still find it enjoyable. If I enjoy the title track, is the rest of the album worth checking out?
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