Sorry if this topic has already been discussed to death. I'm just curious because it seems that bands with NS/supremacist ideas seem to have arisen all over the world very early on in black metal, all independently. Like, sure, the Norwegian scene was a bunch of close bands that could've shared similar ideas due to proximity, but then you have the stuff stuff arising from mainland Europe all the way to Australia. And this is in like, the 90's, all the stuff about the Norwegian scene wasn't that widespread yet, likely.

So how come so many bands that had these ideas arose more or less at the same time? And also, why in black metal specifically? Fascist hardcore notwithstanding, I can't think of another genre with such prevalence of nazi bands. Or maybe it's just a bias because NSBM bands tend to get the spotlight more often?

This is all strictly as a way to understand the historical development of black metal. I'm not trying to promote any ideologies.

You may have a noble intent but expect lock inside one page.

I think that is because black metal tends to revolve around the darkest themes of humanity like satanism, evilness, depressive and suicidal thoughts, etc. so is no surprise that some bands came to the conclusion that fascism, nazism, racism and extreme right-wing politics are part of what black metal is portraying.

That's the explanation people give all the time, but you look at death metal, which deals with equally dark themes like murder, cannibalism, mysoginy or necrophilia, and yet nazism/white supremacy never seems to catch on in that scene (there are bands of course, but it's nowhere near as prevalent as in black metal). There has to be something else then.

A gross misinterpretation of Slayer's Angel of Death. Their nazi-baiting also didn't help.

/thread

It's aggressive anti-mainstream music, so it attracts a lot of radical personalities in a lot of ways. And I think the heavy focus on ancient ways and traditions appeals to Nazis unfortunately.

The main difference, at least for me, is that death metal revolves about violence as a theme, not necessarily evil per se. That's why it has a more cartoony way of depicting gore, serial killers and horror movies while black metal takes itself a lot more seriously, dealing with the "darkness" of humanity. Death metal is a lot less political too, black metal has always said something about religion, Christianity, paganism, occultism, etc. Death metal is more about having fun with that kind of rhetoric, like watching a horror movie.

Came to post something similar to this.

There's a significant difference between in mindset between the 2. Comic book/horror movie vs actual nihilism, apathy, and sadism. Of course there are people in the first category that can take things too far or have genuine bad intentions, but it isn't as common.

Going back to movies, think of the difference in tone between an over the top 80's splatter gore flick and some of the more serious and cruel offerings out there (that were never as popular or successful as their counterparts for the same reason as black metal compared to death metal).

I don't know about you but when I listen to black metal it doesn't bring to mind the imagery of cute puppies and rainbows. As for how it became widespread, it only takes a spark to start a fire.

A more interesting question would be: why do certain metal fans seem to ignore the aggressive/hateful/negative nature of their favored music?

What exactly do you mean by this? If the point is that of all the black metal bands out there a large percentage is NS I don't think this is true in the grand scheme of things, of course there are many such bands but if we were to reduce it to a meta percentage I don't think it would be very high (obviously it would be much higher than most other musical genres).
If the point is that you can't think of other musical genres that have so many nazis around I'm sorry to tell you that it's not something exclusive to black metal, there are an abundant amount of nazis in genres like power electronics and punk, not in vain there are genres like RAC and Hatecore to gather these bands. And, not that I know personally but from friends, the Oi! scene is also infested with Nazi bands. Black metal is far from being the musical genre where nazis purulate, but it is, for some reason, where more attention is given to it, both by supremacists and detractors.

Answering your question, the most obvious answer is the understanding of black metal as anti-establishment music, with the second wave of black metal and the Norwegian scene the music was seen more as a means to transmit a message that went beyond an artistic expression. The crimes of the Inner Circle were treated as terrorism attacks against the fundamental pillars of society such as the government and the church. This also happens in the historical period in which the Cold War ends, and therefore communism disappears from the collective imagination as the main enemy. In that context there is no political ideology more anti-establishment than Nazism. Put those two currents together and you get a pretty strong connection between them. There are many more aspects to take into account and it is more complicated than what I have said, but it is a first step to understanding it.

The key part here is "obviously it would be much higher than most other musical genres". That's exactly what propmted me to ask the question in the first place: why?

As for the second paragraph, I clearly said "fascist hardcore notwithstanding". I'm talking about how it became widespread in this specific metal genre, though if the RAC or fascist oi! scene has anything to do with it, feel free to elaborate on it.

When I say this I mean compared to popular music genres like jazz, blues or pop, I think it's pretty obvious why it's easier to introduce white supremacism in black metal than in the previously mentioned genres. Still the point was only that the percentage of NSBM bands in relation to the amount of black metal bands is not that big.


I have explained that in a second message. Maybe there is also a connection with RAC and Oi!, not in vain Absurd is one of the first NSBM bands and their music is strongly linked to those styles, but personally I don't know if there is something deeper there.

Thanks, this helps quite a bit. I was wondering if the historical context helped a bit in helping those movements.

It's worth noting black metal, which didn't exist before the 80s, is barely a blip in history. The Brazilian band Mystifier didn't take very long to flirt with black supremacy/black nationalism in the 90s. Years later (after black metal's notoriety died down) we started seeing some American bands popping up viewing nationalism through a 'native American'/'indigenous' lens, with even a few bizarre "national socialist + native American" bands popping up. The fact is black metal in general got a head start among white audiences in the cultural west, which means alternatiive historical narratives outside the racial pluralism of the Christian worldview (and its secular ideological descendent, secular humanism) started forming quicker in "white" bands.

It's a bit like asking why five percent ideology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-Percent_Nation) is more common in 90s hip-hop than white nationalism.

You might find more insight in this previous thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=134873

The difference is that the vast majority of black metal bands take themselves way too seriously, whereas the kind of death metal lyrics you refer to always felt very tongue-in-cheek to me.

Black Metal is following XIXth century esoterism, as so the occult side of it is about controling superior beings & forces, this is leading to a certain self superiority compared to "normal" humans. You can notice this aristocratic side of BM aswell of occult esoterism, aristocratic is individual free mind, really not leftist social concern.

Death Metal is loser side, it's about dead & death, about horror, sickness, nothing to do with a glorious evil mind.

So, following aristocratic way, superiority, you'll conclude that human is not so important. and if you think why is it that my ideology is not supported anywhere you got an answer such as "christianity is a prison of fake". They also have truth in the fact that people usually don't think twice or not even once. Tribal way is terrestrial, nothing transcendatl, christianity and others monotheism is also a medium inbetween transcendance and materialism, it's not pure transcendance.

All of this means BM is based on something some people really think is truth. Where in DeathMetal it's all fictionnal, nothing you can really believe in.

You could find same in Oï punk, because it's protective for the neighborhood, family, friends, and because it's calling for being strong, fighting back and so on. Both BM and OÏ can be supremacist stuff, aswell as maybe some industrial music (mecanical martial art) and in opposition to social concern or any modest meanings

Thanks! There's a lot of interesting stuff to read there, but I didn't get close to what I wanted to know specifically until page 3: bands like Absurd or Graveland were releasing stuff independently and simultaneously to the the Norwegian scene, yet they seemingly knew it was a "safe" option to spread nazi ideologies in black metal. It doesn't delve much into the why (there's an endless list of factors), other than Absurd bringing in the RAC/Oi! elements into black metal, so at least that explains their case.

This is something I've actually not seen mentioned often that definitely carries weight in the context of black metal. A lot of occultism peddled in BM is taken directly from the intellectual climate of the 19th century, which was itself the breeding ground of fucked up grand narrative ideologies like fascism. Its base of hyperindividualism, no doubt spawned from the then fresh alienation of the industrial revolution, still fits well with the outsider mentality of many people attracted to movements like black metal, offering an easy alleviation of inferiority complex through an authoritarian and elitist validation of their sense of self-worth, usually in stark contrast with perceived mainstream values.

Which also explains why many BM bands take themselves so seriously, as they're not just practicing an artform, but carrying out necessary maintenance to uphold a world view that otherwise clearly contrasts with reality. This isn't bad per se, but inevitably bands have adopted this more in style than substance, which has given way for a messed up, chauvinistic culture with which fascism seems to go hand-in-hand. Ironically, the Nietzschean brand of philosophy many of these individuals claim to espouse is very clear on the (lack of) necessity of social validation, and yet strong, social culture phenomena like gatekeeping and elitism is especially prevalent in black metal circles.

I think it is just some individuals who were active early on who got into black metal and from there on it spread. If you look at black metal like around 1990 there is no reason to think that 10 years later there would be any link with far right extremism. Maybe if Bathory never went viking it would never have happened.

WAT

"/thread" indeed, because this is fucking stupid.

I don't know if I would go that far but NSBM as a whole definitely has a fondness for Viking Bathory.

You may have a point. Because Bathory wasn't "historical" Viking stuff, it was 19th century romantic nationalism type of Viking-aesthetic, so that might have helped revive those type of sentiments a bit, or at least put them back in a metal zeitgeist.

... But then again Manowar also used that type of imagery and it didn't really develop into a pro-fascist movement (then again Manowar are as cartoony as death metal, as other have pointed out).

This is probably the most accurate answer of the whole thread.

So does my dog what the fuck does that say

Hitler's upper echelon were steeped in a lot strange esoteric and almost cult like organizations devoted to Nordic Mythology and ancient Germanic history like the Vril Society. Of course a lot of black metal is Northern Mythology themed so it would only be natural for it to attract those assholes that think its their duty to continue to misuse those ancient symbols as modern symbols of hate.

I was a correctional office for 16 years and specifically worked with the gang unit since I have a normal, non racist affinity towards Nordic Mythology. The White Supremacist element were tying to get "Odinism" approved as a legit religion. I was able to learn a lot about that "culture." Being a metalhead during that same time I realized that the Nazi element in Europe were inclined to use the same Northern European imagery to infiltrate black metal. Some of it may have started as "shock" value but things like that usually take on a life of their own.

Black metal is a pretty conducive vector for feelings and concepts of hate, so if you espouse a hateful ideology it's probably an obvious choice as an artistic outlet or propaganda medium. And like mjollnir said, the existing Nordic themes and symbolism that are laced through the genre lay the necessary groundwork for certain people to be radicalized. There are always going to be those who are fascinated by the "extreme" aspects of the scene, and will be continually looking for the most evil, most perverse, most shocking, etc, and apparently that road for a lot of people ends at Hitler.

There's a recurring theme of tyrants and tyranny that you find in black metal, starting from a kind of spiritual self-absorption or Satanic self-worship that can then be transposed onto the image of a tyrant, and Hitler and the Third Reich are the most prominent example of that type of spirit that we have to work with in Western society. Kind of a "Satan made flesh" to hold up as an ideal or role model. Evil, tyranny, death, supremacy, it all adds up to NS stuff if you want it to. Plenty of irony there since joining the ranks of a brainwashed mob under a dictator is exactly the opposite of self-rule, but then neo-Nazis aren't usually noted for their intelligence.

One of the first bands to openly espouse white power/nazi ideals was Absurd. This was at a time when a lot of people were being drawn to black metal because of the drama, edge-lord posturing, and "True" black evil, etc. imagery that was such a part of the early 1990s scene. All of that stuff sucked a lot of young impressionable people, so here was this band that was in prison for murder, and sang about and used nazi imagery and spouted off nazi ideas, and some impressionable kids latched onto it. Black metal was exploding in popularity then, as the next-level underground big thing.

Burzum to a lesser extent as well was a factor, but Varg's lyrics didn't really reflect explicit nazi/Hitler worship to the same degree as Absurd did. Same with Graveland, whose members made some pretty far-right statements in interviews but they weren't as explicitly racist in the lyrics. But the later bands were probably inspired by Absurd's lyrics and these far-right statements of the other two, and capitalized on it.

I had more of a historical concern when I first asked this question, because it seemed interesting that all these bands would appear at the same time, playing the same style of music, and spouting the same beliefs. Considering they appeared in entirely different scenes and didn't know of each other (the other 2 at least knew of Burzum, likely, but not Varg's ideologies), it always seemed a bit uncanny to me.

If I had to guess, and it is just a guess, I'd say it really is as simple as, "A few controversial names happened to be involved, and it grew". Considering the sheer amount of dogwhistling techniques they employ* they clearly know this isn't actually a safe haven for them. They treat it more like a recruiting ground. They prowl around subtly and put out feelers under the guise of things like paganism or patriotism, only breaking out the swastikas and the "I really really really wanna punch Israeli babies" rhetoric on super limited-edition releases confined to their own secret clubs. (eg, You'll never see Absurd or Graveland doing things like that, but one-demo bands featuring all anonymous people absolutely will.) They probably caught wind of "this new trend" like everyone else was starting to, noticed the dark angry medieval aesthetic along with the fact people like Varg were involved, and saw it as a new place to branch out at a time when they (rightfully) didn't have many other options.

Additionally, some "dark angry medieval" types were probably already involved in the Nazi movement and just so happened to be metal fans, but again, considering all the dogwhistling, I'm absolutely banking on the majority being outsider Nazis trying to carefully get their foot in an otherwise non-Nazist door. This doesn't just happen in black metal. For instance, thanks to a certain band and their dogwhistling bullshit, I'm aware of Hoelzer Reich, a clothing brand associated with MMA, using the EXACT same techniques used by NSBM musicians. The fact these underground bands, and a once-mainstream clothing brand would both use the exact same symbolism, exact same subtlety, exact same talking points ("we're just interested in history", "we're just proud of our heritage"), etc, tells me this is part of a larger planned-out, conscious, organized effort on their part, and less of the random anomaly it first appears to be.


* I don't want to rant, but just as one example, all of these are 100% proven Nazi symbols. They use these (and more) in place of swastikas.

I was never a Nazi, but I was absolutely a victim of defending these "just proud of my heritage" jackasses in good faith, believing they really were just misunderstood. I genuinely hope this post helps open somebody else's eyes to these manipulative tactics.

Music being an effective medium for both shock value and protest seems like the starting point. It immediately attracts those who are uncomfortably serious about their views and intent on imposing them on others. The most extreme views and the most extreme form of metal seem to fit naturally hand in hand. Similar to how the most abrasive industrial & power electronics music explored such extreme themes.

how evil was black metal really in 1987 or even in 1991? There is a big gap between Tormentor, Sabbat, Master's Hammer and Samael and what the state of the scene was like around 1995 when you got Absurd, Dark Funeral or Burzum.

Greece as a black metal scene was also really into Bathory and also had/has strong ties with nazism with bands such as Necromantia and Legion of Doom also before Absurd was really as well known.

What if those couple of influential people like Varg and such never became as influential? Then maybe it would have stayed more like LLN? Remember that there was a strong push against politics with the late period of the first wave and early 2nd wave. In a somewhat different world fascists would also have gotten pushed out of the scene.

til Necromantia were nazis, what terrible news.

Honestly I'm starting to doubt how big Burzum was in first launching all those hateful ideologies into its own scene, considering the music never had any explicitly NS themes in it, and the knowledge of Varg's ideologies and their influence might have been only limited to the Norwegian scene (of which he seemed to be the only/most serious one about it, apparently).

It's strange how it almost entirely seems to be in black metal and not so much in other subgenres of metal. If you look up "White nationalism", "white supremacy", "National Socialism", "Nazism", or "Neo-Nazism" as lyrical topics, more than 90% of those bands are black metal.

My friend and I discussed something somewhat similar about metalcore and Christianity. Ever since metalcore become a genre of prominence in heavier music about 25 years ago or so, metalcore seems to be by far the genre of heavier music with the most Christian bands. Sure, there are Christian doom metal bands, Christian power metal bands, Christian death metal bands, etc., but metalcore is the genre with by far the best ratio of Christian bands to secular bands. Even in secular bands, there is a higher number of bands with openly Christian members than in other genres (thrash metal, doom metal, etc.).

it is very weird. i hung around churches in my teen years and Christians LOVE(D) metalcore. even people who otherwise didnt listen to heavy stuff would have a few metalcore bands they liked. something about that aesthetic markers of the genre really resonates with that demographic. i didnt understand it all and i still dont.