Hello guys. I am a fan of black metal for a very long time now, but I can not get around some bands, like burzum or satanic Warminster. Is this normal, or should I try to split them from their music?

Separating the art from the artist is not entirely possible, if at all. This is not just a naivistic painting of a clown:


Knowing who made it entirely changes the meaning and impact of it. Those who listen to music "just for the riffs" are always somehow intellectually and emotionally dishonest. "Just for the riffs" NSBM listeners wouldn't listen to a black metal band that looked like this. They see the symbols on the covers and they display them with pride in their "nice haul bro" threads. They, at the very least, find them edgy and cool. Listening to it makes them feel special. Then there are those who are just nazis, plain and simple, and dishonest about it.

You draw the line for yourself. Even if it's not always possible, try to be logically sound and at the very least be honest about it.

this must has been answered billions times, I guess, but... we all got limits, the objective ones are the law, then it's about morality. Your own morality is built from your culture, reading, psychology, philosophy, justice.... and this lead you to feel what's done and transmitted by any form of culture. Every artwork got his feeling, history, cultural heritage. If I'm listening to Carcass, to Mottley Crue, or to Agathocles, the feelings are completely different. That's where you should feel something of course, if you see no difference you're in lack of understanding. When I do listen to Immolation I feel something benevolent, friendly. When listening Malevolent creation I feel something a bit tougher, but still ok to me. When I listen to something that makes me feel bad I do check what's wrong and usually it's all about the intention, the cultural heritage and the feelings spreaded by the bands. Same, if you read Celine you'll notice some harshness, right? The same goes for music or anything. I'm reading with a distance. A distance I won't have reading any swedish proletrain writer, where I will feel good and safe. But opening Hitler's I will be totally unconfortable.
That's what you need to be able to feel with not only reading but music.
Then, i you do listen to something out of your range, you know it, you got distance. Or you can simply avoid. Noone told anyone to listen every bands in a genre just because it's ...(what?). That's where you fix your own limits.

and yes CD16 is right, people saying "it's only music" are 100% talking about right hand bands, they will never say that same listening obviously left hand bands, this is where hypocrisy is revealed

I'll generalize here (maybe overgeneralize for some people): Listen to your instinct, the "gut feeling", and follow that.

and be sure that you'll miss some, we all do mistakes (or got info later, who will blame him-herself for listening Saxon or Manowar?)

100% of statistics in topics like this are pulled out of people's buttholes.
You really think everybody who likes Minor Threat avoids alcohol and premarital sex? Napalm Death, GISM, and scores of other influential left-leaning/anarchist/etc bands in punk and grindcore are widely popular among people who don't care at all about politics, and among quite a few people who don't abstain from nationalist black metal/Burzum/Morrissey/insert scary artist here. You're just incorrect.

Left wing black metal is often dismissed, but basically for the same reason a MAGA hardcore punk band or a nazi rapper would be dismissed by everybody: there's an automatic assumption of cultural tourism, an assumption the artist is trying to artificially inject their worldview into a genre to make it palatable for people who are otherwise wary of the subculture. Basically there's an assumption the music is in service of agitprop, not vice-versa.

I think you can separate them, but only in the way that you can acknowledge that sometimes terrible people can make great music. Nothing wrong with it. Rosemary's Baby still holds up, The Smiths make good stuff, a lot of these black metal acts have quality material...

It's lame to be one of these guys who just turns on something as soon as it's revealed that the artists did something awful - "I never liked them," OK then, sure. That said, it also sucks that all of these debates will have some bad faith actors pretending to be neutral while really just trying to assert some of their own politics or whatever in there. The "I just like the riffs" thing - when they continually keep downplaying it...

I was pretty hardline about all this for a long time, but really there became too many instances and too many different things to keep watching out for. New scandals and bigotries coming out all the time. Eventually I think I just learned to stop being insecure about my own politics. Especially with all the free time during Covid, I started to see art in new ways and it was obvious that it was limiting to bring too much politics into the pure enjoyment of it. I like music and there's something to be said for just letting it affect you for a while, doesn't mean you have to apologize for the creators.

I finally had to listen to Inquisition again after years of not doing it, and they still hold up as well as they used to - it's just that now there is this unfortunate kinda queasiness to it. But the music doesn't become worthless.

—Friedrich Nietzsche, On the Genealogy of Morals

Why wouldn't it be possible? If you ask me, it's basically self-evident that it is entirely possible (have you not come across any people who just don't care?).

There are two overarching issues that tend to get conflated in discussions like this one.

1) Separate the art from the artist - when the artist has done or said things that a person finds unacceptable or whatever. The thing here is that factors outside the music itself are the focal point; as I said, this is a pretty common thing for people to be uninterested in, albeit in varying degrees. For example, I don't care all that much about such things; as long as the lyrics don't present crap that gets my blood boiling, or as long as stage aesthetics made me retch for one reason or another, I'm fine with listening to stuff. This is how I engage with music most of the time; truth be told, there are instances when the association was simply too strong, but in most cases I simply don't associate a specific, flesh-and-blood person with what I am listening to. I'm listening to swathes of guitar, drums pounding away, rumbling bass and inhuman vocalization, as an example. Lyrics are absolutely a part of the deal for me, but most of the time there's no personal association centered on the people behind the instruments. When I listen to Incantation's debut, I don't ever think of, not even for a second, either John McEntee or Craig Pillard.

As a personal aside, I have absolutely no qualms with people who'd think of Pillard the moment "Golgotha" begins, and say "fuck this shit I'm out". Or people who do make this kind of connection when listening to music. That's entirely subjective in the most meaningful sense of the term. However, once you get to adopting this position as the only viable one, either in terms of morals or in other terms (I could see someone arguing that failing to take this into account also constitutes shallow engagement with music, more on which below), then things get a bit tricky. Long story short, I disagree with that.

2) Separate the lyrics from the music - this happens constantly too, but it something I cannot really understand. It's a shallow approach to engaging with music that simply discards one aspect, puts it aside. It's not that I generally think metal lyrics are very significant in themselves, but they simply are a part of the whole deal, sometimes a really significant one at that. There's absolutely no chance in hell I'll be able to listen to stuff like Fanisk and not be antagonized beyond belief.

Those aspects need separating themselves.

Oh yeah, OP asks should they do this separation. Giving the benefit of the doubt, assuming its not a troll thread, I'd say this is a very misleading question because it presupposes that it is an option just like either buying a Coke or a Pepsi at the store is. For one thing, lifelong Pepsi admirers (take a swing at me, c'mon) are predisposed in a specific way that framing this situation in terms of completely free choice is very simplistic and not that useful. This holds true I think even more for this specific issue. If you're constantly reminded about Kristian Vikernes when listening to Burzum, what could you even do to begin separating the music from the Vikernes?

Not much, I'd say.

well, before claiming that amount of certainty you could think twice or ask for details.... First of all your comparison with Minor threat is out of purpose, we don't mean here to follow blindly all sort of lyrics. The fact is I often see people saying "that's only music" when talking of rightwing bands lyrics. Maybe these people could listen ND or any other "whdaisaid???" band you could tell. But there's tons of bands claiming leftwing ideas all around, just shitty bands like Rage against the machine, and a bunch of french punk is clearly sung with antifa lyrics. Give me one guy who will sing "no pasaran" or "Porcherie" while claiming nazi shit ?

correct/incorrect is far too much absolute certitude imho

oh boy your nickname I can't tell for my english's shit but for skrewdriver in your preference I now you're not innocent here, typical example of what I'm saying, ridiculous "only music matter (as long it's rightside)" hidden behind a thin pilar

Should we separate all products from it's creators? Does it apply to clothes, food, games, gas, smartphones etc?



What does Saxon and Manowar have to do with this?

welll... morality maybe ?

this is the kind of thing you alone decide. Nobody's gonna handfeed you your ethics. It's only gonna get more complicated from here and there isn't a rule book on this stuff. You're gonna have to make choices on what you believe using your values and judgement therefrom.

Of course. Enjoy the music, that's all there is to it.

I do. I don't follow artists, I follow music. I don't care about these people in the least let alone their views on issues or politics. Many of them are assholes. Others put on an asshole persona. There's some genuinely cool and nice guys. But that doesn't mean I'm interested into digging into their lives, it won't be long till you find something disagreeable.

I know we all need and look for leaders, or exemplars but take it for what it is. So-and-so is a great guitarist/drummer/songwriter/frontman. But that's it. It doesn't make it him a great person or human being or someone to be emulated, or someone whose views should determine yours.

Now of course we all may have some red line, that we won't tolerate crossing. And if so-and-so starts spewing vile stuff or has committed heinous acts, then sure, divorce yourself, so to speak, and move on.

If you do it, you are left only with the ist. If you still play Diablo II, that's fine but otherwise pretty useless.

Can you explain what the fuck you are on about?!

You can be critical with society while still interacting with it. You can denounce child labour and own an iPhone. You can listen to music made by sketchy or terrible/complicated people and criticize them while having their albums. Absolutes are just not feasible because we are complex creatures capable of critical thinking and paradoxical behaviour, two or more things can be true at one time, Jon Nodveidt can be a pos and create classic albums. David Bowie can be a borderline pedo while being a pop icon…. People contain multitudes.

Separating the art from the artist only goes so far when the art in question directly pulls from the artist’s life experiences, beliefs, personal tastes, etc. If somebody’s racist beliefs or shitty personal attitudes are reflected in their music, then it’s a little harder to separate them just because people want their riffs guilt-free.

You cannot measure all artists by the same standard and always separate art from the artist. But you can live with certain things.

Yeah if it's literally an out-and-proud racist or whatever, using the art to promote racism that is affecting society somehow, then that's for sure a different thing.

^This is why I refuse to listen to Arghoslent and Grand Belial's Key, even if I may be missing out on some sweet riffs or whatever. They're just outwardly racist and antisemitic. At least with Burzum the music doesn't contain Varg's worst ideologies so it's easier to separate the two. Hell, I still think "Burnt Offerings" by Iced Earth is a great album even if Jon Schaffer is a fucking idiot, lol.

Possibly the conviction of Manowar guitarist Karl Logan for possession of child pornography (Wikipedia summary). The dude was booted from the band as soon as this became public news, and as far as we know, the other band members didn't know about this.
I still enjoy my Manowar, even the albums with Logan, because Logan never was the main man and it didn't seep into the music. The line 'May your sword stay wet like a young girl in her prime' was written before he joined, so it doesn't count...



Same. Iced Earth sees some regular rotation here. Would I ever buy tickets to go see IE again? Likely not: listening to a recorded album is different from cheering a person on in real life.

I'm a bit baffled by this stance as well. I mean I get it, this is how you separare the art from the artist but knowing that you are listening to a nazi murderer, or a nazi pedophile (Inquisition) or some obscure BlazeBirth Hall band that has no obvious nsbm stuff in their albums but you know they are members of the Pagan Front or something, it's suddenly way easier to digest because it isn't written out for you in the liner notes?

How are you going to keep track of an artist's actions/beliefs, do you have a special scanner of that?

I feel a lot has to do with social pressure at a given time. When Leaving Neverland was just released everyone was like... "Wait Michael Jackson can we even play that?" I feel (at least in my country) this vibe has faded, everyone is crowning him as the king of pop again. Besides how many people still boycot Chuck Berry (actually convicted for pedophelia) or Herbert von Karajan (actually had a NS membership)?

Also, how many people have given up on Neurosis simply (and only) because of this?
"In August 2022, Kelly admitted to engaging in "emotional, financial, verbal, and physical abuse" on his wife and children, and that he was retiring from music because of it. Neurosis had previously stopped communications with him since 2019 in relation to said abuse. "

Only if you like art.

This is no different from following sports teams, or having some other hobby that involves personalities, like tv and film.

About a decade ago, the football team that I follow was involved with a racism controversy involving their star player at the time, and as far as I can tell, just about everyone that followed the team supported the player and club in question. I won't name the club or player, as I don't want this to get too off topic, but a quick Google search will bring it up.

Something I have observed is the rise of MAGA, and the musicians that seems to align themselves with that movement, and the fan backlash to this. I don't live in America, and do not care about American politics, so this so-called controversy has no effect on me. There's politics and issues in my own country which I'm far more interested in, and this takes precedence for me.

So many musicians have done stupid and even evil things. If you were to turn off of every musician or band for doing or saying something stupid, your list of available artists would be very small indeed. The line is going to be different for everyone. For some, Blake Judd ripping off his fans to get his fix was too much. For others, the murders involving Faust and Vikernes was too much (though with this example they were so long ago, time seems to forgive these two, and the bigger crime Vikernes seems to have committed in the eyes of the internet are his very strange social and religious views). Perhaps you had tickets to a Megadeth gig, and Dave decided that the sound wasn't right, and he cancelled his gig at the last minute, leaving you with expensive tickets that you couldn't get a refund for?

In more recent years, Saxon, Judas Priest and Manowar have both been caught up in child sex offence cases. In all of these cases, I do not believe either band had any knowledge of what the band members in question were involved in. In two of these cases, the incidents for which the band member was convicted was years after they parted ways with the band. While my thoughts towards these individuals are absolutely deplorable, their individual actions have not changed my views on the bands, nor the music they wrote and recorded with these former band members.

Yeah, and that is absolutely senseless! No one can live like that, other than to base their lives on a holier than thou attitude.

Can music be racist though? I'm not seeing how a riff can reflect racist beliefs.

Metal usually isn't instrumental music. Anyone can disregard the lyrics, but that's an integral part of it all.

This describes me as well - I draw the line at unambiguous, explicit hate. (Toward persecuted minorities and such. So, "Kill the Christian" and "Conservative Shithead" don't count.) But you make a good point for sure...

A hypothetical I'll often consider is, "What would other people think if they listened to this?" Or, "What conclusions might someone be tempted to draw about my character/values/beliefs if they saw this in my collection?" (Generally without already knowing the background and extracurriculars of the musicians involved.) - This is somewhat different from the angle where I imagine myself handing a few bucks to Roman Saenko in exchange for the latest Drudkh album.

But overall, when it comes to these things, I'm at least halfway on the way to throwing up my hands - particularly on the "financial enablement" issue. The fact is, I'm far from perfect when it comes to being conscientious with my money, both on essentials and inessentials. Occasionally I make an effort to do better, but often I shrug or rationalize away my responsibility instead. ("It's a drop in the ocean, and even if it isn't, there are too many complicating factors to be certain that the world would be a better place if Roman Saenko had less money.") It doesn't sound great when stated this baldly, but I think this describes most people to some degree, for what it's worth (i.e. nothing).

Still, I do tend to place weight on the question, "What sort of person can listen to 'They Breed' without cringing?"

And that's really only important because of personal dislike of the content. "I don't want to listen to music about hating Jews and Black people" is a pretty reasonable thing to say. I wouldn't want to spend my time watching a movie that's just unambiguously hateful, bigoted, small-minded etc either. That's just about the art itself, is the difference, not just the artist.



On the flip side, this was one of the stories that convinced me you can't really get too in the weeds of trying to be pure with your listening - like, throwing on Souls at Zero or whatever isn't supporting family abuse or anything...

If their music was erased this instant, nothing of value would be lost.

It's not about being hyper aware, it's about at least making an effort at being aware. This argument always just seems to me like it's meant as primer for not giving a shit at all. It's okay to not know things at first, nobody's going to belittle you for listening to an artist and not knowing that they shat on a baby once. It's quite literally very normal to go "oh fuck, my bad, I didn't know this was NSBM, I'm gonna stop listening" and to not be degraded for that.

If you feel guilty in listening to them then you probably shouldn't cause there is some sorta impact mentally for you.

This. Also I'm not suggesting (as some people do) that you instantly go to check on six degrees of guilt-by-association on some band if it's ok to listen to. I'm saying that once you have been made aware, one way or another, it's a total cop out of an excuse that "it wasn't in the lyrics". No one listens to Burzum actively without knowing that the man behind it is a fascist-propaganda spewing murdering bigot.

This was an easy fix for me. Took that song out and replaced it with the three originals on the "Joe Black" EP. They're all better, anyway.

ahah you can separate Burzum of his speech because it's not into the lyrics is untrue - first because it is into the lyrics as soon as you can see "Thulé" somewhere - Second because you do separate when listening him but not for Iced Eaarth, where speech is not into the lyrics - that's a bit confusing

so, why Iced Earth is banned, Gary Glitter can't be sold anymore, when Burzum is still appreciated ?^^

I want to add: no, Manowar or Saxon are not to blame, but it's an example of what can be a cultural context and it's not anew, both bands are from the beginning subject to question - to me they are masculine bands, claiming strong and muscle - nothing to be really blamed but still can be a discussion & make some difference depending which human you are - here's difference with let's say Twisted Sister, and listening this or that CAN BE subject of questioning & choices

I would argue it isn't. The experience of someone who isn't fluent in the language the racist lyrics are written in won't decode the sounds they're hearing as racist.