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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4796
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:56 am 
 

Post all inquiries about explanation of and ambiguity in genre labels here.

Do not waste time asking about:
-Things that one band obviously made up that nobody else uses, i.e. "love metal"
-Ridiculous sub-subgenres from grindcore youtube channels, i.e. vomitnoise, frognoise, toadcore (these are sort of apparent anyway)
-Intentionally stupid questions, i.e. "Is mayonnaise a genre?"

At some point I'll compile some of the better explanations about some of the common questions/ambiguous labels. Here are two
-Viking metal: Bathory's Hammerheart and Falkenbach are good examples. Usually a mix of black metal and epic heavy/thrash metal with Nordic folk mixed in. Varies quite a bit so it's hard to write a one-line explanation.
-Dark metal: some hard-to-categorize combination gothic-tinged black/doom/death often with folk passages that sounds "dark" and - Bethlehem's album "Dark Metal" and old Agalloch are usually referenced. Not used much on MA because we can usually find a less ambiguous genre to use.

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Hebidoku
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:11 pm
Posts: 51
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:54 pm 
 

Is blackco-

Nah, but seriously, is blues metal a genre or just another name for an existing one?
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DarkWhatever
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:12 am
Posts: 42
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:20 pm 
 

Blackgaze... what the fuck

It seems interchangeable with post-black metal but the origin of the term shoegaze comes from the guitar player having so many effects pedals that they spend the entire show looking down at them.

Can a black metal band that uses a ton of effects be considered blackgaze but not be post-black?

Fuck that, I refuse to use the term blackgaze regardless. It seems like one of those sub genre names that's gonna become a derogatory term just like all the 'core' genres.

"Oh, that band is terrible. I don't listen to that cockgaze stuff."

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 4796
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:43 pm 
 

Blackgaze generally has the aesthetics of black metal - the lo-fi distorted sound, the same type of vocals, sometimes tremolo riffs, but it doesn't have the metal riffing. It might sound like wussy third-wave black stuff where the drums are a ticking timekeeper and the guitars are a tremolo storm, but the influence of heavy metal is lost - you won't hear riffs like old Gorgoroth, Grand Belial's Key, or Hellhammer in it.

I never thought of shoegaze as staring at effects pedals, I thought of it as boring, mopey rock.

Hebidoku wrote:
Nah, but seriously, is blues metal a genre or just another name for an existing one?


Not really, blues and metal are both very broad, expansive styles, but there is hardly any uniform overlap that is referred to that way. Considering the first heavy metal band was a very heavy bluesy rock band, most of the blues/metal stuff is defined by pointing to Sabbath as the milestone.

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Folkemon_
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:43 pm
Posts: 2062
Location: England
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:04 pm 
 

Are we considering black n roll a real genre these days? If so it should probably be added to Satyricons genre.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 7441
Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:12 pm 
 

DarkWhatever wrote:
Blackgaze... what the fuck

It seems interchangeable with post-black metal but the origin of the term shoegaze comes from the guitar player having so many effects pedals that they spend the entire show looking down at them.

Can a black metal band that uses a ton of effects be considered blackgaze but not be post-black?

Fuck that, I refuse to use the term blackgaze regardless. It seems like one of those sub genre names that's gonna become a derogatory term just like all the 'core' genres.

"Oh, that band is terrible. I don't listen to that cockgaze stuff."


It's not so much the need to have lots of effects, though the early shoegaze bands did tend to have lots of them. It's more just part of the aesthetic of those bands - unassuming looking musicians playing pretty, spacey but supremely loud rock music and who tended to have a a similarly lackadaisical stage presence (shy, concentrating on the music rather than running around, showing off, interacting with the audience, etc.).

I guess I would say it's a real genre, but in my experience there aren't really that many of these bands playing anything that sounds genuinely influenced by actual shoegaze. Instead it tends to be boring post-rock with the big noisy climaxes replaced with really wimpy black metal.
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DarkWolfXV
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:08 pm
Posts: 200
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:15 pm 
 

Is deathstep a genre?

People mixing dubstep with deathcore/death metal

(lol)
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Helvede
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:28 pm
Posts: 1417
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:39 am 
 

Please don't invent new 'funny' genres just to come to this thread to have them tested, okay?

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Yayattasa
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 am
Posts: 513
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:23 am 
 

Deathstep is certainly not invented, but it's not Dubstep + Deathcore, it is Brostep ( or Post-Dubstep, a subgenre of Dubstep) + Deathcore.
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inhumanist wrote:
Arkhane wrote:
Damn, I thought this thread was headed for closure. Good save, whoever saved it but I'm too lazy to scroll up right now.

oh my god people disagreed on something for several pages stop the presses

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tomcat_ha
Veteran

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 2637
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:00 am 
 

while i like the idea of this thread, you did complete kill the death/doom discussion with this.

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Vamos
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:55 am
Posts: 97
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:20 am 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
while i like the idea of this thread, you did complete kill the death/doom discussion with this.


Seeing this thread started very much right afterwards kind of made me feel bad/guilty of having started the death/doom thread, as if it was stupid or something... :scratch:

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AcidWorm
Veteran

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:45 am 
 

So I have heard thrashcore referred to as fast hardcore punk but less metallic than grindcore. Of course there is more to it than that since grindcore isn't on this site unless it is metal enough and there is plenty of thrashcore bands here. I have heard some thrashcore and it sounded nothing like thrash metal so why does it share the same name? Can anyone explain all this to me?
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In reference to Baby Metal
tanabata wrote:
I heard one of the moderators blacklisted them because of his subjective opinion. Well If that is the case, you sir have shit taste and you ain't my nigga!

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Yayattasa
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 am
Posts: 513
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:54 am 
 

AcidWorm wrote:
So I have heard thrashcore referred to as fast hardcore punk but less metallic than grindcore. Of course there is more to it than that since grindcore isn't on this site unless it is metal enough and there is plenty of thrashcore bands here. I have heard some thrashcore and it sounded nothing like thrash metal so why does it share the same name? Can anyone explain all this to me?


Thrashcore (also knows as Fastcore), I knew Rateyourmusic genre profile explained that:
Quote:
The "thrash" in thrashcore is derived from an obsolete term for what is now commonly known as hardcore punk.


Looking in wikipedia I got this:
Quote:
Thrashcore is often confused with crossover thrash and sometimes thrash metal. Further confusion is added by the fact that many crossover bands, such as D.R.I., began as influential thrashcore bands. The term thrashcore is of recent vintage but dates from at least 1993. Throughout the '80s, the term "thrash" was in use as a synonym for hardcore punk (as in the New York Thrash compilation of 1982). It eventually came to be used for the faster, more intense style pioneered by D.R.I., just before their crossover period. The "-core" suffix is necessary to distinguish it from the thrash metal scene, which is also referred to as "thrash" by fans. Still more confusingly, the term "thrashcore" is occasionally used by the music press to refer to thrash metal-inflected metalcore.
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inhumanist wrote:
Arkhane wrote:
Damn, I thought this thread was headed for closure. Good save, whoever saved it but I'm too lazy to scroll up right now.

oh my god people disagreed on something for several pages stop the presses

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AcidWorm
Veteran

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:08 pm 
 

So basically it is metallic sounding hardcore punk that is very fast? How does that differ from grindcore though?
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In reference to Baby Metal
tanabata wrote:
I heard one of the moderators blacklisted them because of his subjective opinion. Well If that is the case, you sir have shit taste and you ain't my nigga!

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tomcat_ha
Veteran

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 2637
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:21 pm 
 

Thrashcore is older, less extreme and derived from 80's american hardcore. It is a predecessor to powerviolence which took the thrashcore sound but made it more violent and extreme.
Grindcore is derived from european hardcore like Discharge, anti cimex and what not. It's got a lot more crust punk influence and other random influences like industrial.

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AcidWorm
Veteran

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:43 pm 
 

Thanks guys. That does make more sense to me now.
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In reference to Baby Metal
tanabata wrote:
I heard one of the moderators blacklisted them because of his subjective opinion. Well If that is the case, you sir have shit taste and you ain't my nigga!

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The Infamous Bastard
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:47 am
Posts: 250
Location: Lair of the Yaks and Yetis
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:44 am 
 

Folkemon_ wrote:
Are we considering black n roll a real genre these days? If so it should probably be added to Satyricons genre.

Haven't heard any Satyricon, but is it something like the later Darkthrone albums?

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Morsay
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:03 am
Posts: 64
Location: France
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:32 am 
 

Black grind ? Is it real ?

There is deathgrind so why not.

I've heard a few people mention it when talking about bands like Circle of dead Children and Phantom.

Examples :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T5KIPDwrr8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGUzA4cewOU

are these deathgrind ? grindcore ? black metal ?
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TheOldSkull
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:24 pm
Posts: 64
Location: Brittany
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:28 pm 
 

The Infamous Bastard wrote:
Folkemon_ wrote:
Are we considering black n roll a real genre these days? If so it should probably be added to Satyricons genre.

Haven't heard any Satyricon, but is it something like the later Darkthrone albums?



Not at all. Late Darkthrone mixes a lot of genres, including punk, speed and heavy metal with more extreme black or death metal.

Satyricon, well... if you're not familiar with them, in the beginning they played "traditional" black metal, with some viking influences now and then. They got a more modern sound and feel from "rebel extravaganza" onwards. Their music became more groovy, I'd say, simpler on some aspects, probably aiming for more direct efficiency; at some point they got labelled black n roll...which can mean anything, really.

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AcidWorm
Veteran

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:06 pm 
 

Here is an article about black n' roll that is worth a read if you are wondering about the niche.
http://www.invisibleoranges.com/2011/12 ... ck-n-roll/
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In reference to Baby Metal
tanabata wrote:
I heard one of the moderators blacklisted them because of his subjective opinion. Well If that is the case, you sir have shit taste and you ain't my nigga!

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vengefulgoat
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:15 am
Posts: 977
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:05 pm 
 

Why is black'n'roll considered something more than a joke along the lines of blackcore, bluegrass black metal etc?

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Ohrwurm
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:47 am
Posts: 412
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:53 pm 
 

Morsay wrote:
Black grind ? Is it real ?

There is deathgrind so why not.

I've heard a few people mention it when talking about bands like Circle of dead Children and Phantom.

Examples :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T5KIPDwrr8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGUzA4cewOU

are these deathgrind ? grindcore ? black metal ?


Phantom:

What the... I would have a hard time even calling that music at all. And I guess the moderators agree, since the band has an album out and isn't in the Archives. I hope I won't ever have to let my ears go through that again.

Circle of Dead Children:

This is deathgrind with some black metal influences.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2bb_EGjcAI

I guess this would just be black metal, done by a deathgrind band and not really blackgrind. (talking about the first half of the song ofcourse)
And even if it would be, half a song wouldn't really make something a genre.
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tomcat_ha
Veteran

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 2637
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:01 pm 
 

i dont agree with all bands that are called black and roll being called black and roll. More than a few of them are just more extreme motorhead soundwise. I call this style of metal motorbastard metal myself.

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AcidWorm
Veteran

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:34 pm 
 

vengefulgoat wrote:
Why is black'n'roll considered something more than a joke along the lines of blackcore, bluegrass black metal etc?

Maybe cause rock and roll is the only other genre out of those that hasn't had a stigma attached by metalheads.
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tanabata wrote:
I heard one of the moderators blacklisted them because of his subjective opinion. Well If that is the case, you sir have shit taste and you ain't my nigga!

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JerryLeeEx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:12 pm
Posts: 82
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:35 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
i dont agree with all bands that are called black and roll being called black and roll. More than a few of them are just more extreme motorhead soundwise. I call this style of metal motorbastard metal myself.


Motorbastard metal! That's an awesome moniker. I wouldn't mind playing some of that!

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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 4219
Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:55 am 
 

The Infamous Bastard wrote:
Folkemon_ wrote:
Are we considering black n roll a real genre these days? If so it should probably be added to Satyricons genre.

Haven't heard any Satyricon, but is it something like the later Darkthrone albums?

Satyricon make black metal flavoured commercial heavy rock. Late Darkthrone strays between speed metal, heavy metal, hardcore punk and lately power metal.

Black'n'roll is just a catch all term for bands that apply aspects of the black metal sound to earlier forms of heavy music.
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Last edited by inhumanist on Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:59 am 
 

Can someone describe "post-metal" for me and maybe give an example?
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TheDefiniteArticle
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:50 am
Posts: 392
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:44 pm 
 

Is Motorpunk a real genre? The bands that describe themselves as it tend to seem like metalpunk with heavier Motorhead influence than usual.

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Manic Maniac
Grammaritically Challengated

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:58 pm
Posts: 179
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:57 pm 
 

None of the Black 'N' Roll bands I've listened to sound like Motorhead. I have no clue what all of you are talking about.
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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 258714 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
Posts: 8605
Location: Québec
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:39 pm 
 

Manic Maniac wrote:
None of the Black 'N' Roll bands I've listened to sound like Motorhead. I have no clue what all of you are talking about.

Come on, dude.
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Manic Maniac
Grammaritically Challengated

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:58 pm
Posts: 179
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:41 pm 
 

But they sound nothing like Kvelertak nor do they sound like Blood Cult.
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dystopia4
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:47 pm
Posts: 3498
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:21 pm 
 

infinitenexus wrote:
Can someone describe "post-metal" for me and maybe give an example?

It usually is a term for the whole atmospheric sludge sub-gernre pioneered by bands like Neurosis and Isis. However, more recently it has also been used to describe bands such as Giant Squid and Bloodiest.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 7441
Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:43 pm 
 

Manic Maniac wrote:
But they sound nothing like Kvelertak nor do they sound like Blood Cult.


I'm not 100% sure what your point is.
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Ohrwurm
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:47 am
Posts: 412
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:31 am 
 

There's also a band that call themselves post-grind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGI9oGHjS4M
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AcidWorm
Veteran

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:58 am 
 

Manic Maniac wrote:
But they sound nothing like Kvelertak nor do they sound like Blood Cult.

Except your point was that no black n' roll you have heard sounded like Motorhead. He did not imply that all black n' roll sounded like Motorhead.
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In reference to Baby Metal
tanabata wrote:
I heard one of the moderators blacklisted them because of his subjective opinion. Well If that is the case, you sir have shit taste and you ain't my nigga!

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Exigence
Age: 28 (Wait, what?!)

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:42 pm
Posts: 753
Location: New Orleans
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:48 pm 
 

We can go around in circles forever about Motorhead-influenced bands. If you have rock riffs played sloppily fast and a singer who's voice isn't clean...apparently you're inspired by Motorhead. No mention of the fantastic lyrics, attitude or hooks. Listen to a band like Sodom (who does their own style perfectly fine) attempt to cover "Bomber".

That's why shit like Chrome Division fails. No charisma. No magic.

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Manic Maniac
Grammaritically Challengated

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:58 pm
Posts: 179
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:09 pm 
 

Well according to the forums, Midnight is labeled as Black/Speed Metal, not Black 'N' Roll. Blood Cult, however is labeled as Black Metal(Early)/Black 'N' Roll(Later).
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LeMiserable
Milhouse van Houten

Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:42 am
Posts: 343
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:03 pm 
 

Why are Schizophrenia/BtR/Arise called Death Metal albums? I can't help but hear mainly Thrash Metal in them? :ugh:
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infinitenexus
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:35 am
Posts: 1939
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:08 pm 
 

dystopia4 wrote:
infinitenexus wrote:
Can someone describe "post-metal" for me and maybe give an example?

It usually is a term for the whole atmospheric sludge sub-gernre pioneered by bands like Neurosis and Isis. However, more recently it has also been used to describe bands such as Giant Squid and Bloodiest.


Thanks, checking it out now.
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Yayattasa
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 am
Posts: 513
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:33 pm 
 

infinitenexus wrote:
Can someone describe "post-metal" for me and maybe give an example?


The idea behind the name was the same as in post-punk and post-rock (breaking away from genre conventions), but the thing is, it wasn't as post as initially thought, and everything got eventually retagged as Atmospheric Sludge Metal.
"Sludge" because the pioneers of post-metal played plain sludge. But then, Sludge pretty much lost any relations with Doom metal and became a thing of it's own.

I actually prefer the term Post-metal better, because Isis and later Neurosis don't sound like 'conventional' metal to me at all: you hear lot's of crescendos and climaxes in their tracks, and sometimes there's pretty much no rhythm, the songs are bass heavy, etc...
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inhumanist wrote:
Arkhane wrote:
Damn, I thought this thread was headed for closure. Good save, whoever saved it but I'm too lazy to scroll up right now.

oh my god people disagreed on something for several pages stop the presses

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