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Negru_Voda
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:37 pm
Posts: 327
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:18 pm 
 

It's pretty much tautological that the first metal band (or the first band you accept as "metal") wouldn't be influenced by another metal band, I really wouldn't hope that I'd have to point that out too when I'm making a statement like that...

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Ribos
Radioactive Man

Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:10 pm
Posts: 3020
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:59 am 
 

Negru_Voda wrote:
It's pretty much tautological that the first metal band (or the first band you accept as "metal") wouldn't be influenced by another metal band, I really wouldn't hope that I'd have to point that out too when I'm making a statement like that...

Actually, you should, because it's a direct contradiction to your argument. If there is one counterexample that is not accounted for, who is to say that there are not others? For example, what if some group of people with no prior knowledge about the existence of metal decided to make some music that happened to be metal? It happened once in history, there's no rule saying it couldn't happen again.

My point in all this is not to point out specific examples all day, but rather that you are making a blanket generalization without any justification for doing so. You are, as I've mentioned to others before, talking out your ass.
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Negru_Voda
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:37 pm
Posts: 327
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:45 am 
 

Ribos wrote:
Actually, you should, because it's a direct contradiction to your argument. If there is one counterexample that is not accounted for, who is to say that there are not others? For example, what if some group of people with no prior knowledge about the existence of metal decided to make some music that happened to be metal? It happened once in history, there's no rule saying it couldn't happen again.

My point in all this is not to point out specific examples all day, but rather that you are making a blanket generalization without any justification for doing so. You are, as I've mentioned to others before, talking out your ass.


And you're as terrible a troll as you are a logician. If you're going to provide a counterexample, at least make it a valid one. Simply saying "first metal band" and patting yourself on the back isn't going to work. It should be self-evident that the first metal band couldn't be influenced by another metal band and are thus the exception, but somehow you managed to miss this from inside your rut of pedantic faggotry.

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Ribos
Radioactive Man

Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:10 pm
Posts: 3020
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:02 am 
 

Negru_Voda wrote:
And you're as terrible a troll as you are a logician. If you're going to provide a counterexample, at least make it a valid one. Simply saying "first metal band" and patting yourself on the back isn't going to work. It should be self-evident that the first metal band couldn't be influenced by another metal band and are thus the exception, but somehow you managed to miss this from inside your rut of pedantic faggotry.

Actually, if you had bothered to read my post, you would have seen that my point wasn't just "HURR FIRST BAND HURR", but rather that you didn't have any basis for making the sweeping generalization that you did. You effectively said that since you don't know of any counterexamples, the blanket rule must be true. Never mind that you had no concrete proof to back it up. It's the same sort of logic I've seen being peddled by Intelligent Design proponents.
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biohazard the band is not is when you want to add it to tell you that there is

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darkeningday
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 1772
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:44 am 
 

I have never heard genuine counterpoint in a single metal song. Sure, there's more aesthetic influences in the genre than you can shake a guitar pick at, but asserting that metal adheres to the compositional exigencies of art music is just absurd.

Elend is probably the closest thing I have ever heard to semi-art music that also shares similar traits to metal. Though it would definitely be considered "bad" art music by most musicologists.

Understand, however, that just because Heavy Metal does not descend from the erudite lineage, that it is somehow inferior to art music. They're just apples and oranges. Or Bach or Quorthon. Whatever.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6332
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:08 am 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Elend is probably the closest thing I have ever heard to semi-art music that also shares similar traits to metal. Though it would definitely be considered "bad" art music by most musicologists.
Many definitions of art music include great amounts of metal, so it might be of use to clarify what you consider to be art music. The term should definitely not be used interchangeably with the term classical music. Nowadays art music seems to be an umbrella term with an extremely bloated and an often misunderstood definition.

Negru_Voda wrote:
It's pretty much tautological that the first metal band (or the first band you accept as "metal") wouldn't be influenced by another metal band, I really wouldn't hope that I'd have to point that out too when I'm making a statement like that...
Stop arguing for the sake of arguing.
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mtlzr
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:40 am
Posts: 35
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:10 am 
 

I don't think anyone is claiming that metal music in any form would be a descendant of Classical, or classical, music, it's clear that the roots are in rock music. The point is, that there are many influences from classical music in metal, what exactly the manifestation is depends on the band in question.

As we are talking about creative arts, a forced and nerdish example: Tolkien was influenced by the finnish language when creating his elven language, yet the elven language is not a derivative of nor linguistically related to the finnish language.
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