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Peccociel
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Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:20 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:57 pm 
 

I have a few friends who, rather than merely pointing out bands that have classical *influences*, assert that metal (death metal in particular) has its origins not only as a form of rock music but as a sort of perverse modern "classical" music. This because of the somewhat "ascetic" nature of the aesthetic: there is little room for love songs or party songs in death metal, despite that the sociocultural sphere of death metal is imbued with an undeniable urge to celebrate (usually with lots of beer and little pretension, that is to say: a great time). The death metal format lends itself to seeming more like a "composition" than a rock-out session, I mean there could be (and are) many death metal songs that do not use the verse-chorus-verse-chorus pattern but rather a subtle meditation on an existential, metaphysical, or sheerly fantastic theme.

It is somewhat more obvious in certain black metal bands that explicitly incorporate even the form of classical music into their songs (albeit electronically, in the vast majority of cases). Some of the nastier, raunchier black metal would not seem to qualify however, relying more on repetition of chords and phrases in order to generate an almost "primitive" music. See Velvet Cacoon, some Darkthrone, Paysage d'Hiver...

So does anyone have an opinion on any relationships between metal and classical music...that is, if you think that such a relationship exists? I would love to hear your opinion on this topic.

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awm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:11 pm 
 

If John Zorn can take grindcore and call it free jazz, I guess there's no stopping your friend from taking death metal and calling it classical.

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Peccociel
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:15 pm 
 

Hahaha I like that

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iAm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:51 am 
 

I agree 100% that there is Classical influence in Metal. Just listen to Sleep Terror.
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Ribos
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:28 am 
 

Here I be the thread's asshole in my nitpicking correction:

classical, not Classical.

Classical (with the capital C) implies a connection to the musical era that belonged to Mozart and company. If it's just "classical," though, you're referring to the whole art music field as a whole, which is far more accurate.

I've actually seen/heard very few metal bands that feature real Classical influences, but many that include Baroque-style counterpoint and Romantic and post-Romantic tendencies for bombast and emotion. In fact, if not Baroque, then the leading classical influence on metal would probably come from the early 20th century modernism movement (see: Stravinsky, etc.). There, you've got a heavier emphasis on rhythm and bold, sometimes jarring harmonic choices with a dissolving of the smoother melodic lines that were so beloved during the Classical period.

That said, when you're talking about Paysage d'Hiver, I can very much see a very contemporary classical influence. Some pieces sound like a cross between George Crumb and Philip Glass with distorted guitars.

Of course, the next person who says bands like Cryptopsy are "jazzy" is getting decapitated by a Miles Davis album. It's probably my biggest pet peeve after this whole "neoclassical" bullshit. I swear, some people wouldn't know jazz if Louie Armstrong rose from his grave and shat on their heads.
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mtlzr
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:12 am 
 

There are quite some bands with Classical influences, and even straight 'borrowing' isn't too rare... For example Symphony X's song "Death of Balance" features Mozart's Lacrimosa from his Requiem.

But yeah, Baroque would seem to be the number 1 influence in metal (with Bach being often heralded as the greatest composer of all time), guitarists often adding a bit "romantic shredding" à la Paganini. :)

More progressive stuff seems to bear a lot of debt to the more recent russian composers, for example Mussorgsky, Shostakovich and Rimsky-Korsakov.

With metal being predominantly dark, it's no wonder that these sources of inspiration are mostly in minor, either tragically melodic or more chaotic and brooding.

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Bow_to_your_Master
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:21 am 
 

"Musical tastes and personality type are closely related, according to a study of more than 36,000 people from around the world.

The research, which was carried out by Professor Adrian North of Heriot-Watt University, is said to be the largest such study ever undertaken.

It suggested classical music fans were shy, while heavy metal aficionados were gentle and at ease with themselves.

"One of the most surprising things is the similarities between fans of classical music and heavy metal. They're both creative and at ease but not outgoing."

BBC UK



One website for some time has been telling you about the relationship between metal and classical: ANUS.COM

Ever since we formulated our theories back in the formative years of 1988-1991, we wrote about the synchronicity between metal and classical in mood, in outlook, in music theory, in song structure, and most of all, in type of songwriting -- the narrative circular composition that is shared between both classical and metal.

Everyone else told us we were nuts. Then out of the woodwork, came help -- Bathory speaking of a classical influence, Burzum mentioning it, Celtic Frost speaking of it, and so on.

We've been right and everyone else has been looking in the wrong place. But as more evidence comes out, the position becomes clearer: it's heavy metal that inherits classical in the popular music realm, thanks in part to its prog and movie soundtrack heritage.

Keep spreading the word.

ANUS.com ----- Dark Legions Archive

http://www.anus.com/metal/

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Peccociel
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:11 pm 
 

Oh brother, not the ANUS people again. Sigh...well BTYM, can you give specific examples? I am not well-versed in classical music history or in music theory such as would permit me to see the links between the two worlds obviously. Are there particular bands or particular songs by bands wherein the link is obvious? I see the link for the reasons that I outlined in my first post, but I find it hard to swallow due to metal's rock origins: especially for bands in the early 1990s, the verse-chorus-verse-chorus repetition from pop/rock is fully preserved.

Ribos and mtlzr, am I correct in understanding baroque music as a pre-classical musical form? If so, what differentiates it from classical? So would Bach be considered baroque???

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Bow_to_your_Master
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:25 pm 
 

Peccociel wrote:
Oh brother, not the ANUS people again. Sigh...well BTYM, can you give specific examples? I am not well-versed in classical music history or in music theory such as would permit me to see the links between the two worlds obviously. Are there particular bands or particular songs by bands wherein the link is obvious? I see the link for the reasons that I outlined in my first post, but I find it hard to swallow due to metal's rock origins: especially for bands in the early 1990s, the verse-chorus-verse-chorus repetition from pop/rock is fully preserved.

Ribos and mtlzr, am I correct in understanding baroque music as a pre-classical musical form? If so, what differentiates it from classical? So would Bach be considered baroque???


what's the problem? you wanna know about metal and classical? that's why you posted, right? anus.com writes about it all the time. go there. read.

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Peccociel
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:17 pm 
 

Well, sorry if that offended you, I'm just a bit put off by how your post seemed to focus more on adulating the ANUS community rather than discussing the topic. I don't care about how great your site is, but I do want to learn more about the classical/baroque presence in metal, if such a presence can justifiably be said to exist. So if there is indeed a particular article on your site that would explicate what I want to know, kindly direct me to it. Preferably one with *specific* examples and references to specific composers/bands, as some other posters on this thread have done.

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Bow_to_your_Master
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:37 pm 
 

right. sorry man. no worries. I don't work for ANUS, I just read the site and the forum. I happen to think it's the best metal site out there, so I direct others to it. here's the deal - I don't know a lot about music on an academic level so I, personally, can't speak to any of this. but here's some links:

http://www.anus.com/metal/about/blog/pi ... .php?id=68
http://www.anus.com/metal/about/blog/pi ... .php?id=46
http://www.anus.com/metal/about/blog/pi ... .php?id=32



Sweden's At the Gates were among the seminal innovators of melodic death metal. The band's early releases - notably the Gardens of Grief EP and The Red in the Sky is Ours - were major landmarks in the incorporation of Classical/Romantic ideas in phrasal composition, dynamic sensibility and structural architecture...

http://wiki.hessian.org/index.php?title=At_The_Gates

The album, which demonstrates Attila's weirdly operatic vocal style, is darkly Romantic and perversely religious, beautiful in its vision and its profound effect on listeners to this day. It was recorded in the Edvard Grieg Memorial Hall, and demonstrates an obvious classical influence in its use of melody, harmony, and musical architecture...

http://wiki.hessian.org/index.php?title=Mayhem

Aesthetically, Burzum's music has echoes of both classical and medieval music - deliberate, and at times extremely rhythmically simple, riffs are presented almost as would a string quartet, given an intimate, though near-orchestral presence through layers of distorted guitar and bass lines...

http://wiki.hessian.org/index.php?title=Burzum



In this sense, heavy metal is the inheritor of the technique of
Romantic, ecclesiastical modernists like Anton Bruckner, fused with
the technique of hardcore punk musicians that stripped aside the
preconceptions and scales of rock music to write in pure modal
stripes of 3-4 notes within the context of a chromatic scale...

http://www.anus.com/metal/about/faq/

Part II, in particular, of the FAQ touches on classical



Metal for Classical listeners:

At the Gates "The Red in the Sky is Ours" (w/violin, natch)
Deicide "Legion"
Morbid Angel "Blessed Are the Sick"
Demilich "Nespithe"
Burzum "Det Som Engang Var"
Gorguts "Obscura"
Sacramentum "Far Away From the Sun"
Gorgoroth "Antichrist"
Enslaved "Vikinglgr Veldi"

http://www.anus.com/metal/hall/index.ph ... l#msg24396



other threads in the forum:
http://www.anus.com/metal/hall/index.ph ... 548.0.html
http://www.anus.com/metal/hall/index.ph ... l#msg16935

peace out!

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diabolikon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:10 pm 
 

Rhapsody Of Fire is very classically inspired. They're influenced by Vivaldi.

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666head
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:12 pm 
 

I think its a pretty shaky subject. Classical music, from Baroque to the Post-Modern period, has changed. A lot. While it is true that many metal bands claim influence from composers such Mozart or Beethoven, very actually show it in their music. However, there have been many metal bands using 2, 3 or even 4 melodies at once, not unlike Back or Mozart themselves. And indeed, some bands actually copy (quite literally) pieces from many composers.

Sadly, however, most of this influence is sound based, not theory based. And that's where death metal clearly shows its rock n roll roots. Not bad, but it isn't the deepest thing out there. Sadly, the deepest most metal bands ever go is melody and the occasional start-stop motions.

The influence is there, but its just that most of the time, it has a hard time shinning through. Truth be told, death metal and black metal bands are midway between classical music and pop music. It does indeed take a more experienced ear to pick out the melody, the rhythims, etc. But it doesn't take a genius to figure it out either. Of course, that is not to say Trey or Evil Chuck didn't add a truckload of complexity. Mozart and Beethoven would be proud. And seriously, those guys did (are doing) a lot, with no education in music whatsoever.
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Bow_to_your_Master
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:21 pm 
 

one more link:

http://www.anus.com/metal/about/metal/c ... etal-fans/

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raveneyeslikemirrors
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:30 am
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:28 pm 
 

Bow_to_your_Master wrote:
Peccociel wrote:
Oh brother, not the ANUS people again. Sigh...well BTYM, can you give specific examples? I am not well-versed in classical music history or in music theory such as would permit me to see the links between the two worlds obviously. Are there particular bands or particular songs by bands wherein the link is obvious? I see the link for the reasons that I outlined in my first post, but I find it hard to swallow due to metal's rock origins: especially for bands in the early 1990s, the verse-chorus-verse-chorus repetition from pop/rock is fully preserved.

Ribos and mtlzr, am I correct in understanding baroque music as a pre-classical musical form? If so, what differentiates it from classical? So would Bach be considered baroque???


what's the problem? you wanna know about metal and classical? that's why you posted, right? anus.com writes about it all the time. go there. read.


The problem with anus is that they are so wrappedu up in their right-wing, white-supremacist philosophy and idea of sheer self importance that they are just unacceptable for anyone who even in the least disagrees with their ideals. I've never seen a more larger ego in my entire life than the individuals who mod that website. Plus I have also seen them do stupid shit. I remembre tha they published an article on an American black metal band that they claimed to be written by the bands leader which described him jerking off to shitting himself and experimenting with other men. And having read part of it, they really seem to be trying to make this not a joke, but an actual attemt to make readers believe this was really written by the band leader.

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Bow_to_your_Master
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:18 pm 
 

raveneyeslikemirrors wrote:
I remembre tha they published an article on an American black metal band that they claimed to be written by the bands leader which described him jerking off to shitting himself and experimenting with other men. And having read part of it, they really seem to be trying to make this not a joke, but an actual attemt to make readers believe this was really written by the band leader.


that's hilarious!

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Peccociel
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:47 pm 
 

raveneyeslikemirrors wrote:
I've never seen a more larger ego in my entire life than the individuals who mod that website.


Amen to that.

Anyhow, back to stuff that matters. So far the following bands have been brought up:

Rhapsody of Fire
9 Bands listed by BTYM
Symphony X
Sleep Terror

I agree that the link between classical and metal is exaggerated by some. Metal is a rock-music derivative first; this is most obvious. Again, many bands use the verse/chorus/verse/chorus model which seems like a total counterpoint to any sort of classical perspective.

I had a friend who put it this way: "When I listen to the piece, 'Flight of the Bumblebee,' it makes me think of an actual bumblebee buzzing around. Death metal is the same concept." Like, if a song is about going to Hell, I want it to sound like going to Hell---consider Suffocation's "Despise the Sun," which is a specific example of this whole "going to Hell note by note" thing.

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Peccociel
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:51 pm 
 

Just for the record, the article about an American black metal band, which you seem to be referencing, was about Black Witchery. I am certain it was intended as a joke, albeit a sick and uncreative one.

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Bow_to_your_Master
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:45 pm 
 

Peccociel wrote:
Anyhow, back to stuff that matters. So far the following bands have been brought up:

Rhapsody of Fire
9 Bands listed by BTYM
Symphony X
Sleep Terror



At the Gates
Mayhem
Burzum
Demilich
Gorguts
Sacramentum
Gorgoroth
Enslaved

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Ribos
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:51 pm 
 

Bow_to_your_Master wrote:
At the Gates
Mayhem
Burzum
Demilich
Gorguts
Sacramentum
Gorgoroth
Enslaved

What.

Since when are any of those bands at all influenced by Classical composers? I don't care what they say, I have yet to hear anything that sounds remotely like Mozart in Mayhem's material.

Quote:
I had a friend who put it this way: "When I listen to the piece, 'Flight of the Bumblebee,' it makes me think of an actual bumblebee buzzing around. Death metal is the same concept." Like, if a song is about going to Hell, I want it to sound like going to Hell---consider Suffocation's "Despise the Sun," which is a specific example of this whole "going to Hell note by note" thing.

This sort of symbolism is not exclusive to classical/Western art music. You'll find this sort of thing all over the globe. This means Suffocation is no more influenced by classical music than it is Javanese Gamelan.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:52 pm 
 

Peccociel wrote:
Death metal is the same concept." Like, if a song is about going to Hell, I want it to sound like going to Hell---consider Suffocation's "Despise the Sun," which is a specific example of this whole "going to Hell note by note" thing.


Exactly why I don't like In Flames, Dark Tranquillity, At the Gates, et cetera. None of them sound like...well, anything to me.

Virgin Steele for classical influence, though. :metal:
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Mezentus
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:06 pm 
 

Ribos wrote:
Bow_to_your_Master wrote:
At the Gates
Mayhem
Burzum
Demilich
Gorguts
Sacramentum
Gorgoroth
Enslaved

What.

Since when are any of those bands at all influenced by Classical composers? I don't care what they say, I have yet to hear anything that sounds remotely like Mozart in Mayhem's material.

Quote:
I had a friend who put it this way: "When I listen to the piece, 'Flight of the Bumblebee,' it makes me think of an actual bumblebee buzzing around. Death metal is the same concept." Like, if a song is about going to Hell, I want it to sound like going to Hell---consider Suffocation's "Despise the Sun," which is a specific example of this whole "going to Hell note by note" thing.

This sort of symbolism is not exclusive to classical/Western art music. You'll find this sort of thing all over the globe. This means Suffocation is no more influenced by classical music than it is Javanese Gamelan.


Mayhem's "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas" lyrically was classically influenced. Dead's lyrics were very dark, gothic like in a classical literature sense.

I'm somewhat curious about Gorgoroth however..

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Sadness_for_Life
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:18 pm 
 

There's more to classical influences on De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas than just the lyrics.
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Hjorlejf
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:53 pm 
 

I prefer baroque over real classical anyway

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Thorr
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:46 am 
 

Hjorlejf wrote:
I prefer baroque over real classical anyway


Bach > Beethoven

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mtlzr
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:34 am 
 

Peccociel wrote:
Ribos and mtlzr, am I correct in understanding baroque music as a pre-classical musical form? If so, what differentiates it from classical? So would Bach be considered baroque???


Yes, the predominant musical style before the classical aera is called Baroque. Here's the wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque_music
There's also a nice timeline chart :)
The most notable difference to Classical music is the greater complexity of harmony and the use of counterpoint and other complex structures, whereas Classical music favoured simpler arrangements and clearer melodic treatment.

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Ribos
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:08 am 
 

Sadness_for_Life wrote:
There's more to classical influences on De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas than just the lyrics.

Burden of proof is on you. Where is this influence?

And I don't care if the lyrics are "dark, gothic like in a classical literature sense." First of all: classical music =/= classic literature, which is what this thread is discussing. Second, to say that because Mayhem features the same dark and gothic lyrical themes found in classic literature is like saying that since some of their songs are in E Minor, and Mozart wrote some music in E Minor, therefore they are Classically influenced.

"Dark, gothic" themes were not a defining trait of classic literature. Therefore, you cannot say anything exhibiting those traits must be influenced by classic literature.
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Bow_to_your_Master
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:28 pm 
 

Mezentus wrote:
Ribos wrote:
Bow_to_your_Master wrote:
At the Gates
Mayhem
Burzum
Demilich
Gorguts
Sacramentum
Gorgoroth
Enslaved

What.

Since when are any of those bands at all influenced by Classical composers? I don't care what they say, I have yet to hear anything that sounds remotely like Mozart in Mayhem's material.

Quote:
I had a friend who put it this way: "When I listen to the piece, 'Flight of the Bumblebee,' it makes me think of an actual bumblebee buzzing around. Death metal is the same concept." Like, if a song is about going to Hell, I want it to sound like going to Hell---consider Suffocation's "Despise the Sun," which is a specific example of this whole "going to Hell note by note" thing.

This sort of symbolism is not exclusive to classical/Western art music. You'll find this sort of thing all over the globe. This means Suffocation is no more influenced by classical music than it is Javanese Gamelan.


Mayhem's "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas" lyrically was classically influenced. Dead's lyrics were very dark, gothic like in a classical literature sense.

I'm somewhat curious about Gorgoroth however..


In terms of Gorgoroth I am speaking specifically of "Antichrist." And with Mayhem, as some people figured out, I am ONLY speaking specifically of "DMDS." The same goes for all those bands, I wouldn't say look at their entire output, but specific albums - "The Red in the Sky is Ours," "Far Away from the Sun," "Vikinglr Veldi."

As far as these albums being influenced by classical, it comes in terms of composition. I don't think that these bands were literally "influenced by" some specific composer, in that they are going to sound "like" Mozart, but they were ASPIRING to be a "new kind" of classical. I'm not saying they were EXTREMELY succesful, but I believe they aspired. They were probably only mildly succesful.

The albums that I mentioned coincide with classical in terms of mood, outlook, song structure, and album composition - a "narrative type" of songwriting and composing. The albums sound like "journeys." The albums are trying to be "organic wholes," much like classical. It's subtle. And I totally understand people's skepticism, but I believe it's there.

These bands that sound more literally like they were influenced by classical, or some specific composer, come across as bands that just want you to know that they were OBVIOUSLY influenced by classical. I prefer something more subtle.

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Ribos
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:57 pm 
 

Bow_to_your_Master wrote:
In terms of Gorgoroth I am speaking specifically of "Antichrist." And with Mayhem, as some people figured out, I am ONLY speaking specifically of "DMDS." The same goes for all those bands, I wouldn't say look at their entire output, but specific albums - "The Red in the Sky is Ours," "Far Away from the Sun," "Vikinglr Veldi."

As far as these albums being influenced by classical, it comes in terms of composition. I don't think that these bands were literally "influenced by" some specific composer, in that they are going to sound "like" Mozart, but they were ASPIRING to be a "new kind" of classical. I'm not saying they were EXTREMELY succesful, but I believe they aspired. They were probably only mildly succesful.

The albums that I mentioned coincide with classical in terms of mood, outlook, song structure, and album composition - a "narrative type" of songwriting and composing. The albums sound like "journeys." The albums are trying to be "organic wholes," much like classical. It's subtle. And I totally understand people's skepticism, but I believe it's there.

These bands that sound more literally like they were influenced by classical, or some specific composer, come across as bands that just want you to know that they were OBVIOUSLY influenced by classical. I prefer something more subtle.

"It comes in terms of composition." Congratulations! This sentence is so vague I was almost not sure you were bullshitting!

"Narrative-type" songwriting is not classical. Yes, it exists in classical, but is not a defining trait of it. Perhaps you'd best look at some of Vivaldi's ritornello-form concertos and then try to convince me that AC/DC is classically influenced. Organic wholes? You may as well call Journey (or any other ALBUM-ORIENTED rock group) classically-influenced, for that matter. Also, way to ignore the entire existence of the madrigal genre in classical music.

And where is your proof that Mayhem were aspiring to be the new classical? Where/when did they ever say that they were the new form of art music? You are pulling words out of your ass as far as I can tell.

You call it "subtle," I call it wishful thinking. You believe "it's there," I believe you don't actually know what you're talking about. I'm sorry if I'm coming across a bit harsh here, but it frustrates me to no end when people with only a glancing knowledge of a topic pretend they actually know something about it.
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Noktorn
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:22 pm 
 

The amount of classical influence in metal is incredibly overblown.
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Bow_to_your_Master
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:27 pm 
 

Ribos wrote:
Bow_to_your_Master wrote:
In terms of Gorgoroth I am speaking specifically of "Antichrist." And with Mayhem, as some people figured out, I am ONLY speaking specifically of "DMDS." The same goes for all those bands, I wouldn't say look at their entire output, but specific albums - "The Red in the Sky is Ours," "Far Away from the Sun," "Vikinglr Veldi."

As far as these albums being influenced by classical, it comes in terms of composition. I don't think that these bands were literally "influenced by" some specific composer, in that they are going to sound "like" Mozart, but they were ASPIRING to be a "new kind" of classical. I'm not saying they were EXTREMELY succesful, but I believe they aspired. They were probably only mildly succesful.

The albums that I mentioned coincide with classical in terms of mood, outlook, song structure, and album composition - a "narrative type" of songwriting and composing. The albums sound like "journeys." The albums are trying to be "organic wholes," much like classical. It's subtle. And I totally understand people's skepticism, but I believe it's there.

These bands that sound more literally like they were influenced by classical, or some specific composer, come across as bands that just want you to know that they were OBVIOUSLY influenced by classical. I prefer something more subtle.

"It comes in terms of composition." Congratulations! This sentence is so vague I was almost not sure you were bullshitting!

"Narrative-type" songwriting is not classical. Yes, it exists in classical, but is not a defining trait of it. Perhaps you'd best look at some of Vivaldi's ritornello-form concertos and then try to convince me that AC/DC is classically influenced. Organic wholes? You may as well call Journey (or any other ALBUM-ORIENTED rock group) classically-influenced, for that matter. Also, way to ignore the entire existence of the madrigal genre in classical music.

And where is your proof that Mayhem were aspiring to be the new classical? Where/when did they ever say that they were the new form of art music? You are pulling words out of your ass as far as I can tell.

You call it "subtle," I call it wishful thinking. You believe "it's there," I believe you don't actually know what you're talking about. I'm sorry if I'm coming across a bit harsh here, but it frustrates me to no end when people with only a glancing knowledge of a topic pretend they actually know something about it.


No problem. I'll admit it: you know more about music than me.

Why do you need actual quotes from Mayhem?

All I know is that Paganini - 24 Caprices sounds like heavy metal, and if you combine Schubert's unfinished, Beethoven 1,3,7 and Bruckner 4,5,7,8 and you have basically metal.

Mozart says his symphonies are a child's melody, wrapped in the organic machine of a great mind. Even Beethoven is several simple themes developed in a complex way, a new journey. That's how metal is written.

My theory is that every generation reinvents the SAME archetypes. Think about it like that.

Metal is the "INHERITOR" of the classical ARCHETYPE, or at least aspires to be, how's that? I know that might be a little broad for you. But actually, I thank you because you've helped me formulate my own thoughts better. Perhaps I WAS overstating things and I like this claim better: Metal is/aspires to be the inherior of the classical archetype.

Or, if you want, we could just say classical is classical, metal is metal, and not try to connect the dots at all, and call it a day.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6374
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:39 pm 
 

Bow_to_your_Master wrote:
Or, if you want, we could just say classical is classical, metal is metal, and not try to connect the dots at all, and call it a day.
As someone who listens to and understands classical music and metal (though when it comes to theory, I know very little), that makes much more sense. As Ribos stated, the fact that you have noticed similar traits in both styles of music doesn't meant that one was influenced by another.
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Bow_to_your_Master
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:52 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Bow_to_your_Master wrote:
Or, if you want, we could just say classical is classical, metal is metal, and not try to connect the dots at all, and call it a day.
As someone who listens to and understands classical music and metal (though when it comes to theory, I know very little), that makes much more sense. As Ribos stated, the fact that you have noticed similar traits in both styles of music doesn't meant that one was influenced by another.


fair enough, but that's a zero-sum game, so to speak. where's the creativity? where's the risk? any jag-bag can say X is X and Y is Y. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I see enough potential there to continue to try to be creative. when the potential is zero, I'll give up.

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Ribos
Radioactive Man

Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:10 pm
Posts: 3027
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:38 pm 
 

Bow_to_your_Master wrote:
Or, if you want, we could just say classical is classical, metal is metal, and not try to connect the dots at all, and call it a day.

To say that one field of music that showed up in the same spot as another field of music a couple hundred years before is totally unrelated would be ignorant. Music is a reflection of society, and often society is a reflection of the music. Since we have a continuous yet evolving culture from one point in the timeline to the next, it would make sense that the music likewise follows a continuous yet evolving path.

That being said, there ARE a couple hundred years in between the two. The influences should NOT be overstated. Modern death metal is quite noticeably different from the early proto-metal bands (Led Zeppelin, Blue Oyster Cult, etc.), and that's just over a course of 40 years. You take that interval five times over (as to connect to Mozart), and even if you can connect the dots... is it actually useful to do so?

Quote:
Why do you need actual quotes from Mayhem?

It would indicate what their true intentions are best if they ever told us. Any two-bit hack can say "Oh, X was trying to do Y, but may or may not have succeeded." To make such claims in the academic field of history, one must have proof if you want the claims to hold water.

Quote:
Mozart says his symphonies are a child's melody, wrapped in the organic machine of a great mind. Even Beethoven is several simple themes developed in a complex way, a new journey. That's how metal is written.

That's also how any riff-based blues music is written. Hell, that's also how Javanese Gamelan is written. It's not a unique concept to Western art music.

Quote:
My theory is that every generation reinvents the SAME archetypes. Think about it like that.

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it," yada yada yada. But what are these "archetypes?" You're introducing new, undefined terminology into the debate, and I call bullshit until you define your terms.
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marktheviktor
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:41 am
Posts: 6888
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:46 pm 
 

Yngwie Malmsteen brings alot of glorious classical influences to his music. I also read that Randy Rhodes was self taught and studies classical music more than anything to inspire his playing.

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Omnivore
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 317
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:07 pm 
 

Bow_to_your_Master wrote:

I still can't understand why you people have My Bloody Valentine in your archives on metal. Really. It's a big black fucking sheep along with the rest of those misplacements like The Doors in the middle of an acceptable display of metal bands. You can't be taken seriously while you classify the Doors as "death rock". Give me a break.

Sorry if I slightly derailed the conversation, hopefully this small discussion will end soon.

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invoked
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:54 pm
Posts: 1699
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:15 pm 
 

I think Ribos and mtlzr really hit the nail on the head with their first posts here, as far as the aesthetic influence of classical music on metal goes. For example, At the Gates' The Red in the Sky is Ours features counterpoint harmonies and sudden time changes that suggest influence from Romantic and 20th century composers. Now you can't necessarily prove that the music of something like Morbid Angel is related to Mozart unless they literally use a motif from one of his pieces, but in various interviews several metal musicians such as Trey Azagthoth, Tom Warrior, and Quorthon have claimed to be heavily inspired by classical music.

And Omnivore, please take your whining to a separate topic. Just because you don't like the thread doesn't mean you have to derail it any further.
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Negru_Voda
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:37 pm
Posts: 327
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:23 pm 
 

Enough of this silliness. Metal is a form of rock music. Metal derives from blues and rock, not classical. It can be influenced by classical in the case of "neo-classical" shred type metal, it can have interesting song structures, but fundamentally metal is percussive, riff-based, and has nothing to do with classical music. If metal derives from classical music then Joanna Newsom must be Bach's posthumous prodigy. Furthermore, if Paganini sounds like metal to you then you must be listening more to prozak than Paganini.

I'd be more inclined to say that prog rock, which is musically leagues beyond metal, is the spiritual the successor of classical music in rock music rather than metal because rather than keeping it to short simple riffs it took a more involved approach to melodic development, but saying that would not only be utterly pretentious but also probably false. Gryphon's music resembles and takes more cues from music of the renaissance than any metal ever did from classical music. You're welcome to try and prove me wrong, but if you'll cite extreme metal (especially black metal) as examples I warn you ahead of time that I'll probably laugh.

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Negru_Voda
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:37 pm
Posts: 327
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:50 pm 
 

As a final note I'll say that all metal bands play metal because another metal band inspired them to, but I can't think of a single metal artist that started playing metal because he listened to classical music. And before you quip about Quorthon being influenced by Wagner for his viking albums, he was probably more influenced by Manowar, punk bands, Uriah Heep and KISS. In fact, I can hear more of KISS's God of Thunder in those albums than I can any Wagner.

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Ribos
Radioactive Man

Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:10 pm
Posts: 3027
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:06 pm 
 

Negru_Voda wrote:
As a final note I'll say that all metal bands play metal because another metal band inspired them to, but I can't think of a single metal artist that started playing metal because he listened to classical music. And before you quip about Quorthon being influenced by Wagner for his viking albums, he was probably more influenced by Manowar, punk bands, Uriah Heep and KISS. In fact, I can hear more of KISS's God of Thunder in those albums than I can any Wagner.

Bad generalization: Black Sabbath disproves that, provided you accept Black Sabbath to be the first metal band.

Point is: there was an originator of metal, as proven by the fact that at one point, there was not metal but now there is. This originator could not have been influenced by other metal bands, as there were no other metal bands to be influenced by.

That being said, I will not make the (ludicrous) claim that Black Sabbath was influenced by classical music.
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