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wight_ghoul
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:44 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:55 am 
 

JCC wrote:
I don't know where you got that from, the only message I can see in his post is that the two are both important. An interesting musical experiment that falls flat on its face is redeemed by trying something different, and an excellent but predictable retro album is demeaned by its inability to create something new. I don't think that he's implying that every band has to get in touch with their inner Mike Patton and change direction on a whim, just that bands should strive for originality.

Thank you, this was the appropriate interpretation.

Zdan wrote:
What I am saying is this: the new thrash scene is a reflection of the old one.

Except the old one had new and exciting and ambitious and never-done-before metal albums being produced.

thomash wrote:
Saying that thrash revival bands are offering more of the same seems to me to be based on a superficial appraisal of the bands in question.

So what am I missing? I've seen Warbringer live, I've heard the 1980s thrash riffs, the 1980s thrash solos, seen the 1980s thrash outfits and stage mannerisms, heard such generic shout-along choruses as "war! to end all wars!"... if that's a superficial appraisal and I'm missing something it doesn't really bother me. There are so many bands around now that I love everything about that I don't feel the need to dig much deeper into retro-thrash.

Zdan wrote:
And yes I prefer to have a retro thrash scene where some bands are good and lots of them suck to a metalcore scene where all bands suck. Thank you.

Ritual_Suicide wrote:
Besides, the thrash revival trend is better than the modern metalcore trend.

Ribos wrote:
And honestly, would you rather see a retro-thrash movement... or a return to the groove/nu metal of the 90s?

"Stop complaining about cancer, at least you don't have AIDS!" I refuse to smile and tolerate something that sucks simply because there are other things that suck even more. It really looks like you're reaching when you defend something by comparing it to nu metal.

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Shawnathan_Mory
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 8:37 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:48 pm 
 

Nothing is killing metal, and there's no way that metal can move forward. Because everything has been done and done again. Metal has hit a creative brick wall and because of that, many fans are starting to discover older bands from the '70's and '80's

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Noktorn
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Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:31 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:51 pm 
 

Shawnathan_Mory wrote:
Nothing is killing metal, and there's no way that metal can move forward. Because everything has been done and done again. Metal has hit a creative brick wall and because of that, many fans are starting to discover older bands from the '70's and '80's


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Underkill
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Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:48 pm
Posts: 84
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:27 pm 
 

If modern death metal wasn't so crappy i would listen to it. Most modern dm bands are obsessed with being br00tal, Slammin' and Tech. The albums are also WAY OVERPRODUCED and as a result there is no atmosphere and they all sound alike. Plus the lyrics suck - In fact i'm pretty sure Carcass and Cannibal Corpse did the whole over the top gory/perverted lyrics thing ages ago. Don't get me started on the logos and cover art...

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thomash
Metal Philosopher

Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:31 pm
Posts: 1855
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:13 pm 
 

wight_ghoul wrote:
thomash wrote:
Saying that thrash revival bands are offering more of the same seems to me to be based on a superficial appraisal of the bands in question.

So what am I missing? I've seen Warbringer live, I've heard the 1980s thrash riffs, the 1980s thrash solos, seen the 1980s thrash outfits and stage mannerisms, heard such generic shout-along choruses as "war! to end all wars!"... if that's a superficial appraisal and I'm missing something it doesn't really bother me. There are so many bands around now that I love everything about that I don't feel the need to dig much deeper into retro-thrash.

I think you're missing a few things that indicate a different take on thrash. (I'll limit my discussion to Warbringer; I'm not saying that all retro thrash bands share the same qualities.)

1. The vocalist's style is clearly influenced by black metal. In fact, when I saw them live, he was wearing a Bathory shirt. His style seems to me to try to blend black and thrash styles of vocals.

2. The song structures aren't very similar to most 80s thrash. Warbringer seems to like to transition from riff to riff without returning to a main riff as often as is typical of 80s thrash. Indeed, I've even noticed that a couple of Warbringer songs have a couple of different chorus riffs. Some bands, such as Demolition Hammer, toward the tail end of the thrash movement had a similar style of songwriting and were clearly inspirational to Warbringer but I think that it was never really developed very much because bands started to play death metal instead of thrash.

3. This is perhaps the most obvious point, but the drums play a different, faster beat in Warbringer than in most 80s thrash. Certainly, there were some bands that played very fast in the 80s, but I can't think of any that used blast beats. Most stuck very closely to the traditional rock beat, even if it was played much faster than usual. Now, it's true that Warbringer's drummer is a bit sloppy, but that's not unusual for thrash and he's playing more ambitious drum parts than in most 80s thrash.

Now, I'm not saying that you have to like Warbringer if you like thrash; my preference, despite what you may have inferred from my argument so far, is generally for the 80s material and I rarely listen to Warbringer. However, I do think that there are some 'retro' bands (including Warbringer) that have developed their own style and character. Even so, I will grant one thing: a lot of bands in the movement suck. However, I think that has more to do with the fact that most of them come from Los Angeles than with the idea of 'retro' thrash. (Seriously, L.A. may have a huge metal scene but it also tends to produce legions of shitty bands.)

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Zdan
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2027
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:20 pm 
 

I actually agree with thomash on the Warbringer issue and a similar argument could be made for Toxic Holocaust. Exmortus also has a fairly unique sound with their death/thrash, slight hinges of melodeath and almost Malmsteen-esque soloing.

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The_Orphanizer
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:13 am
Posts: 1431
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:14 pm 
 

Underkill wrote:
If modern death metal wasn't so crappy i would listen to it. Most modern dm bands are obsessed with being br00tal, Slammin' and Tech...

While the genre is stagnated a bit by bands like this, there are still plenty of fresh bands around. Check out Illogicist, for example. Technical? Definitely, but more in the vein of Symbolic-/Human-era Death rather than being the umpteenth spawn Necrophagist or Suffocation.

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The_Orphanizer
Metalhead

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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:19 pm 
 

Zdan wrote:
I actually agree with thomash on the Warbringer issue and a similar argument could be made for Toxic Holocaust. Exmortus also has a fairly unique sound with their death/thrash, slight hinges of melodeath and almost Malmsteen-esque soloing.

Exmortus is a tough call; depending on the song, they can be much more on the death metal side of the fence. Still, they're great and quite unique.

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wight_ghoul
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:44 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:20 pm 
 

thomash wrote:
I think you're missing a few things that indicate a different take on thrash...

Honestly, I think it looks even worse when you list the "innovations." My superficial appraisal had actually already registered that the vocals were a bit harsher (kind of like Sepultura or Kreator or Sodom); as for the rest... these slight modernizing tweaks don't really satisfy my thirst for artistic ambition. If the case for retro thrash has been presented to the satisfaction of the defenders, I think you folks can go back to enjoying it and I'll go back to calling it garbage when I feel the need to vent. I'm afraid I still do not recognize Warbringer's right to exist. ;)

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eViLbOrIs
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Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:15 am
Posts: 191
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:47 pm 
 

Noktorn wrote:
It seems that they'll go back and forth on whether it's simply another genre of music or a greater movement/lifestyle, generally when it's convenient for them. Someone challenging the validity of the art? Lifestyle. Someone talking about how Slayer made a kid commit suicide? "It's just music, man!"


I haven't bothered to read through all four pages of this topic, but I will say that this is one of the most sensible things I've ever read on this forum, and something that's troubled me for as long as I can remember.
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thomash
Metal Philosopher

Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:31 pm
Posts: 1855
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:29 pm 
 

wight_ghoul wrote:
thomash wrote:
I think you're missing a few things that indicate a different take on thrash...

Honestly, I think it looks even worse when you list the "innovations." My superficial appraisal had actually already registered that the vocals were a bit harsher (kind of like Sepultura or Kreator or Sodom); as for the rest... these slight modernizing tweaks don't really satisfy my thirst for artistic ambition. If the case for retro thrash has been presented to the satisfaction of the defenders, I think you folks can go back to enjoying it and I'll go back to calling it garbage when I feel the need to vent. I'm afraid I still do not recognize Warbringer's right to exist. ;)

Very well. However, I'm afraid I still feel that you're vastly overstating your case. You have every right to dislike Warbringer, but challenging their right to exist on grounds of lacking artistic ambition? :scratch:

eViLbOrIs wrote:
Noktorn wrote:
It seems that they'll go back and forth on whether it's simply another genre of music or a greater movement/lifestyle, generally when it's convenient for them. Someone challenging the validity of the art? Lifestyle. Someone talking about how Slayer made a kid commit suicide? "It's just music, man!"

I haven't bothered to read through all four pages of this topic, but I will say that this is one of the most sensible things I've ever read on this forum, and something that's troubled me for as long as I can remember.

Are you kidding me? Noktorn is blatantly stereotyping metalheads on the basis of what is, in my experience, a misguided, idiotic minority. Hell, why should we even accept that the same people who make one of the statements he's pointing out are the same people who make the other? The statement is about as ridiculous and misguided as Noktorn can manage, which is saying a lot.

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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
Posts: 9594
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:40 pm 
 

Noktorn wrote:
failsafeman wrote:
Noktorn also seems to have this silly notion that newer is always better, when many times that's clearly far from the case.

Define 'new'; I'm not saying that simply because a band is modern, they're good; far from it. But you can do novel spins on an older style of the genre without really being 'new'. Look at a band like Coffins; their particular style is very oldschool and certainly has large elements taken from various other oldschool death and thrash metal bands, but until they came around, no one really sounded QUITE like them. Not a 'new' style of music, but an interesting one.

Yes, but you've made comments to the effect that styles change for a reason, and what we have now changed from what we had then, because what we have now is better; not in this thread, but that seems an overall attitude of yours. Believe it or not, some people actually prefer oldschool because they think it's better, not because they're oldschool poseurs. Now, I would agree that attempting to clone an older band is a bad idea, but a scene's sound is just that: a sound, a general collection of shared musical ideas and concepts. I think the problem is that too many bands are attempting to sound too much like Entombed or Metallica or whoever. Every (good) band that played Swedeath, or Finnish death, or bay area thrash, or whatever, had their own stylistic take on that sound; they didn't all sound just like each other, and the ones that weren't really stylistically much different from each other were usually crap. If a band now can take Swedeath and write something interesting within that sound, then more power to them.

Noktorn wrote:
Doesn't the very idea of having a throwback metal band seem sort of foul to anyone but me?

No, it really doesn't. If they're poseurs and/or suck at it, then of course I wouldn't support a band, but if they succeed, why not? Art is art, and truly great art is timeless.
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Zdan
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:47 pm 
 

I'll support failsafe on this one and add an example to illustrate the point: there are some people (me for one) which would love a band a modern band try to write something in style of "Digital Dictator" by Vicious Rumors and remain true and faithful to that style. It would be be retro - true, but if done properly it could be awesome music and that is what matters here.

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ThrashingMad
Skanky

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:47 pm
Posts: 2353
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:44 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Noktorn wrote:
Doesn't the very idea of having a throwback metal band seem sort of foul to anyone but me?

No, it really doesn't. If they're poseurs and/or suck at it, then of course I wouldn't support a band, but if they succeed, why not? Art is art, and truly great art is timeless.


I definitely agree with this. I think some people are making this stuff to be a hell of a lot more commercially focused than it is. If a band sounds a lot like early Sodom they're probably not thinking "Sodom is popular, we can make money off this", but rather "Sodom's a great band, I want to make music like them". I think the bands' intentions with this stuff are far less rotten than some may think.

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wight_ghoul
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:44 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:24 pm 
 

ThrashingMad wrote:
I definitely agree with this. I think some people are making this stuff to be a hell of a lot more commercially focused than it is. If a band sounds a lot like early Sodom they're probably not thinking "Sodom is popular, we can make money off this", but rather "Sodom's a great band, I want to make music like them". I think the bands' intentions with this stuff are far less rotten than some may think.

I didn't really notice anyone accusing retro thrash of being commercial, I certainly wasn't trying to. The second quote you offer describes the more common criticism, I think. This just doesn't seem like a worthwhile idea for a band: "Hey guys, you know what was a good band? Sodom. Let's make a band like Sodom." Look, everyone has to start somewhere, I completely understand that many (even most?) bands start off with covers, then produce derivative originals before they gradually find their way into an identity. But with retro thrash the bands never seem to get past these early stages, instead these early stages are the goal and the final product. I'd be happy to see any of these bands grow into something greater (and I'm sure some will), I just wish they didn't have to dominate the scene in the mean time.

thomash wrote:
You have every right to dislike Warbringer, but challenging their right to exist on grounds of lacking artistic ambition?

Why not? An analogy comes to mind that might help to illustrate my feelings, I can't really speak for anyone else:

1980s Thrash Metal vs. Retro Thrash Metal

Feel free to substitute a film example more suitable to your tastes. It's not meant to be a directly equivalent comparison, but I have a similar reaction to both: why??? Can't these people spend their time trying to make something new?

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Noktorn
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:33 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Yes, but you've made comments to the effect that styles change for a reason, and what we have now changed from what we had then, because what we have now is better; not in this thread, but that seems an overall attitude of yours.


Not necessarily because the new stuff is better; just that the old ideas have been mostly exhausted in their current form and it's time to move on to different things. Progression isn't a straight line.

ThrashingMad wrote:
I definitely agree with this. I think some people are making this stuff to be a hell of a lot more commercially focused than it is. If a band sounds a lot like early Sodom they're probably not thinking "Sodom is popular, we can make money off this", but rather "Sodom's a great band, I want to make music like them". I think the bands' intentions with this stuff are far less rotten than some may think.


The retro thrash bands being discussed certainly aren't the ones who sound like Sodom.
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ENKC
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:28 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:35 pm 
 

List of things that aren't killing metal:

Everything

List of things that are literally killing metal:
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thomash
Metal Philosopher

Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:31 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:37 pm 
 

Running with the movie analogies, I've been arguing that the difference between the retro movement and old movement might be comparable to these cases:

1980s vs. Retro

Or even:

Old School vs. New School

I don't see how you can categorically rule these types of cases out. Anyway, I think we've done this to death. I think I've made my case well enough.

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ThrashingMad
Skanky

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:47 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:45 pm 
 

Noktorn wrote:
failsafeman wrote:
Yes, but you've made comments to the effect that styles change for a reason, and what we have now changed from what we had then, because what we have now is better; not in this thread, but that seems an overall attitude of yours.


Not necessarily because the new stuff is better; just that the old ideas have been mostly exhausted in their current form and it's time to move on to different things. Progression isn't a straight line.

ThrashingMad wrote:
I definitely agree with this. I think some people are making this stuff to be a hell of a lot more commercially focused than it is. If a band sounds a lot like early Sodom they're probably not thinking "Sodom is popular, we can make money off this", but rather "Sodom's a great band, I want to make music like them". I think the bands' intentions with this stuff are far less rotten than some may think.


The retro thrash bands being discussed certainly aren't the ones who sound like Sodom.


Toxic Holocaust have been brought up a few times, but regardless, that was just an example. Put Exodus in the place of Sodom if you like.

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ThrashingMad
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Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:47 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:51 pm 
 

wight_ghoul wrote:
ThrashingMad wrote:
I definitely agree with this. I think some people are making this stuff to be a hell of a lot more commercially focused than it is. If a band sounds a lot like early Sodom they're probably not thinking "Sodom is popular, we can make money off this", but rather "Sodom's a great band, I want to make music like them". I think the bands' intentions with this stuff are far less rotten than some may think.

I didn't really notice anyone accusing retro thrash of being commercial, I certainly wasn't trying to. The second quote you offer describes the more common criticism, I think. This just doesn't seem like a worthwhile idea for a band: "Hey guys, you know what was a good band? Sodom. Let's make a band like Sodom." Look, everyone has to start somewhere, I completely understand that many (even most?) bands start off with covers, then produce derivative originals before they gradually find their way into an identity. But with retro thrash the bands never seem to get past these early stages, instead these early stages are the goal and the final product. I'd be happy to see any of these bands grow into something greater (and I'm sure some will), I just wish they didn't have to dominate the scene in the mean time.


Not so much in this thread, but I think that's a pretty common opinion of detractors of retro movements.

You also have to remember that a band doesn't begin and end at what style they choose to play. What if a band, say, really liked early Kreator but thought the playing was slightly too sloppy, an felt that they could do a better job with the sound. Or they thought the style was great but in the end the band just didn't write memorable songs. I think people are putting too much weight on what a band is playing, and not how well they are playing it.

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failsafeman
Digital Dictator

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:45 am
Posts: 9594
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:00 am 
 

Noktorn wrote:
failsafeman wrote:
Yes, but you've made comments to the effect that styles change for a reason, and what we have now changed from what we had then, because what we have now is better; not in this thread, but that seems an overall attitude of yours.

Not necessarily because the new stuff is better; just that the old ideas have been mostly exhausted in their current form and it's time to move on to different things. Progression isn't a straight line.

Says who? You? I haven't heard many "new ideas" that I didn't think were shit. If all you're saying is "metal musicians need to come up with stuff that's new and exciting and good!" well what a shocking goddamn pronouncement that is. The problem is, most new ideas suck balls, new ideas that don't are really, really hard to come up with. People say "hey, these other guys had good ideas back then, let's try to do something with them!" They don't often succeed in making good music that way, true, but neither does anyone.
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wight_ghoul
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:44 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:01 am 
 

thomash wrote:

You're crazy. I mean, I asked for the innovations Warbringer brings to the table and you give me a bunch of stuff that had already been done with regularity by 1980s thrash and faster drumming?

And who said "new school"? If this was a new school of thrash then it wouldn't be retro... retro = trying to look, sound, and act like the 1980s bands to the extent where it becomes a dominant part of your identity. I mean, the whole movement is built around the avoidance of things like innovation.

ThrashingMad wrote:
You also have to remember that a band doesn't begin and end at what style they choose to play. What if a band, say, really liked early Kreator but thought the playing was slightly too sloppy, an felt that they could do a better job with the sound. Or they thought the style was great but in the end the band just didn't write memorable songs. I think people are putting too much weight on what a band is playing, and not how well they are playing it.

Well that's fair enough if it works for you guess, but it seems I look for completely different things in my metal than you do... Personally "Kreator with less sloppy playing" sounds like something I would put much effort into avoiding.

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ThrashingMad
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:05 am 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Noktorn wrote:
failsafeman wrote:
Yes, but you've made comments to the effect that styles change for a reason, and what we have now changed from what we had then, because what we have now is better; not in this thread, but that seems an overall attitude of yours.

Not necessarily because the new stuff is better; just that the old ideas have been mostly exhausted in their current form and it's time to move on to different things. Progression isn't a straight line.

Says who? You? I haven't heard many "new ideas" that I didn't think were shit. If all you're saying is "metal musicians need to come up with stuff that's new and exciting and good!" well what a shocking goddamn pronouncement that is. The problem is, most new ideas suck balls, new ideas that don't are really, really hard to come up with. People say "hey, these other guys had good ideas back then, let's try to do something with them!" They don't often succeed in making good music that way, true, but neither does anyone.


While I mostly agree with you, remember, Noktorn isn't talking about creating whole new genres from scratch, but rather bands putting unique twists on sounds/aesthetics.

Also, Noktorn, whether or not a certain genre is "played out" is obviously entirely subjective.

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thomash
Metal Philosopher

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:12 am 
 

wight_ghoul wrote:
thomash wrote:

You're crazy. I mean, I asked for the innovations Warbringer brings to the table and you give me a bunch of stuff that had already been done with regularity by 1980s thrash and faster drumming?

I thought we were no longer speaking specifically about Warbringer. Rather, I'm saying that there might be a band in the current movement that might make that a valid analogy. I haven't heard every 'retro' thrash band out there, so I leave my options open, so to speak.

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wight_ghoul
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:44 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:17 am 
 

thomash wrote:
wight_ghoul wrote:
thomash wrote:

You're crazy. I mean, I asked for the innovations Warbringer brings to the table and you give me a bunch of stuff that had already been done with regularity by 1980s thrash and faster drumming?

I thought we were no longer speaking specifically about Warbringer. Rather, I'm saying that there might be a band in the current movement that might make that a valid analogy. I haven't heard every 'retro' thrash band out there, so I leave my options open, so to speak.

Well, I wouldn't entirely disagree with that. Although I would suggest the radical reimagining of thrash metal which would make that analogy apt would have to move beyond the concept of "retro."

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NecroFile
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:20 am 
 

Quote:
It seems that they'll go back and forth on whether it's simply another genre of music or a greater movement/lifestyle, generally when it's convenient for them. Someone challenging the validity of the art? Lifestyle. Someone talking about how Slayer made a kid commit suicide? "It's just music, man!"


I missed that on my first read through, but damn, that is insightful. I don't see how it fits in with the main point of the thread, but I certainly agree with it.

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:24 am 
 

ThrashingMad wrote:
failsafeman wrote:
Noktorn wrote:
failsafeman wrote:
Yes, but you've made comments to the effect that styles change for a reason, and what we have now changed from what we had then, because what we have now is better; not in this thread, but that seems an overall attitude of yours.

Not necessarily because the new stuff is better; just that the old ideas have been mostly exhausted in their current form and it's time to move on to different things. Progression isn't a straight line.

Says who? You? I haven't heard many "new ideas" that I didn't think were shit. If all you're saying is "metal musicians need to come up with stuff that's new and exciting and good!" well what a shocking goddamn pronouncement that is. The problem is, most new ideas suck balls, new ideas that don't are really, really hard to come up with. People say "hey, these other guys had good ideas back then, let's try to do something with them!" They don't often succeed in making good music that way, true, but neither does anyone.


While I mostly agree with you, remember, Noktorn isn't talking about creating whole new genres from scratch, but rather bands putting unique twists on sounds/aesthetics.

That's what I'm talking about too. Putting unique twists on sounds/aesthetics, to the degree Noktorn is talking about, and making something good come out of it, is really hard. Because let's face it: these "retro" thrash bands aren't complete carbon-copies of old thrash bands, they all have their own little stylistic quirks. Noktorn's problem is that those quirks don't result in enough differentiation, and/or the sum total isn't good music. All he's basically saying is bands should try to be more different from one another, while making better music at the same time, which is like saying "why can't we all just get along?"
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ThrashingMad
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:30 am 
 

Oh okay. In that case, I'm inclined to agree with you.

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invoked
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:26 am 
 

I think that reading this thread has made me realize that there is perhaps nothing inherently wrong with modern thrash (or modern metal in general), it just needs to trim the fat, so to speak. Almost every local thrash band I've seen in the Bay Area is either completely worthless, incredibly generic, or both. The whole "LOL BEER MOSH BEER!" image doesn't help either. But I know that if I keep digging, I'm bound to find a few diamonds in the cow shit. One local band in particular that I dig is Deadly Remains (http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=3540268504), who do the old-skool Pestilence/Death/Asphyx thing but it's more thrashy and also fucking awesome. They slay live too, but for some reason they don't get quite as much attention as the Exodus worshipers.
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CryingForDeath
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:05 am 
 

Whoa, telling a band they have no right to exist? Pull your head out of your ass dude, music is good, bands at least attempting to make metal, regardless if you like it or not, is a good thing. People trying to create music they like is a good thing.

I personally love playing old-sounding thrash. I have a wonderful time with it, and love playing that kind music live, where it comes across the strongest. Anyone who would tell me I have no right to do this, or that I can't write my own thrash metal because its not 1986 or whatever can go fuck themselves viciously. Cheers!

-John Kevill (Warbringer)
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wight_ghoul
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:49 am 
 

Look on the bright side, your band was chosen for discussion as a microcosm of the entire movement. :lol:

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Wet Pussy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:56 am 
 

CryingForDeath wrote:
Anyone who would tell me I have no right to do this, or that I can't write my own thrash metal because its not 1986 or whatever can go fuck themselves viciously.


:metal:

Yep, at the end of the day, metalheads will make the music they want to make, which has always been the case.
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Noktorn
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:00 am 
 

failsafeman wrote:
That's what I'm talking about too. Putting unique twists on sounds/aesthetics, to the degree Noktorn is talking about, and making something good come out of it, is really hard. Because let's face it: these "retro" thrash bands aren't complete carbon-copies of old thrash bands, they all have their own little stylistic quirks. Noktorn's problem is that those quirks don't result in enough differentiation, and/or the sum total isn't good music. All he's basically saying is bands should try to be more different from one another, while making better music at the same time, which is like saying "why can't we all just get along?"


Everything's going to have stylistic quirks even if they're cloning because they're not the same people; it's unavoidable and that alone isn't going to make a band unique unless we're going from some greater 'you're all special in your own way' snowflake theory. What's wrong with saying that bands should be more unique and better? I thought that was something that just about everyone could get behind. Anyway, you can reduce just about any argument about metal to that, but the more precise issue is that the retro philosophy tends to breed shitty music in great numbers.
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CryingForDeath
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:00 pm 
 

Noktorn wrote:
failsafeman wrote:
That's what I'm talking about too. Putting unique twists on sounds/aesthetics, to the degree Noktorn is talking about, and making something good come out of it, is really hard. Because let's face it: these "retro" thrash bands aren't complete carbon-copies of old thrash bands, they all have their own little stylistic quirks. Noktorn's problem is that those quirks don't result in enough differentiation, and/or the sum total isn't good music. All he's basically saying is bands should try to be more different from one another, while making better music at the same time, which is like saying "why can't we all just get along?"


Everything's going to have stylistic quirks even if they're cloning because they're not the same people; it's unavoidable and that alone isn't going to make a band unique unless we're going from some greater 'you're all special in your own way' snowflake theory. What's wrong with saying that bands should be more unique and better? I thought that was something that just about everyone could get behind. Anyway, you can reduce just about any argument about metal to that, but the more precise issue is that the retro philosophy tends to breed shitty music in great numbers.



I think about 90 percent of so of retro thrash is kinda bad, not having enough unique stylistic quirks does automatically make a band not worth listening to. There are a few bands that are definitely worthwhile though.

And also, the age of most of these bands is early 20's or usually under. A very small percentage of the bands have made a second album or really had any time to develop.
I know on our part that our second album we just made sounds pretty different from the first. Our first album was pretty much our "warbringer garage days- best of", and for what it was I'm pretty fucking proud of it.
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thomash
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:09 pm 
 

CryingForDeath wrote:
And also, the age of most of these bands is early 20's or usually under. A very small percentage of the bands have made a second album or really had any time to develop.
I know on our part that our second album we just made sounds pretty different from the first. Our first album was pretty much our "warbringer garage days- best of", and for what it was I'm pretty fucking proud of it.

This is very true. I think it merits some patience and tolerance considering that many of the 'retro' bands still have a lot of room for development.

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DeathFog
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:10 pm 
 

thomash wrote:
wight_ghoul wrote:
thomash wrote:
Saying that thrash revival bands are offering more of the same seems to me to be based on a superficial appraisal of the bands in question.

So what am I missing? I've seen Warbringer live, I've heard the 1980s thrash riffs, the 1980s thrash solos, seen the 1980s thrash outfits and stage mannerisms, heard such generic shout-along choruses as "war! to end all wars!"... if that's a superficial appraisal and I'm missing something it doesn't really bother me. There are so many bands around now that I love everything about that I don't feel the need to dig much deeper into retro-thrash.

I think you're missing a few things that indicate a different take on thrash. (I'll limit my discussion to Warbringer; I'm not saying that all retro thrash bands share the same qualities.)

1. The vocalist's style is clearly influenced by black metal. In fact, when I saw them live, he was wearing a Bathory shirt. His style seems to me to try to blend black and thrash styles of vocals.

2. The song structures aren't very similar to most 80s thrash. Warbringer seems to like to transition from riff to riff without returning to a main riff as often as is typical of 80s thrash. Indeed, I've even noticed that a couple of Warbringer songs have a couple of different chorus riffs. Some bands, such as Demolition Hammer, toward the tail end of the thrash movement had a similar style of songwriting and were clearly inspirational to Warbringer but I think that it was never really developed very much because bands started to play death metal instead of thrash.

3. This is perhaps the most obvious point, but the drums play a different, faster beat in Warbringer than in most 80s thrash. Certainly, there were some bands that played very fast in the 80s, but I can't think of any that used blast beats. Most stuck very closely to the traditional rock beat, even if it was played much faster than usual. Now, it's true that Warbringer's drummer is a bit sloppy, but that's not unusual for thrash and he's playing more ambitious drum parts than in most 80s thrash.

Now, I'm not saying that you have to like Warbringer if you like thrash; my preference, despite what you may have inferred from my argument so far, is generally for the 80s material and I rarely listen to Warbringer. However, I do think that there are some 'retro' bands (including Warbringer) that have developed their own style and character. Even so, I will grant one thing: a lot of bands in the movement suck. However, I think that has more to do with the fact that most of them come from Los Angeles than with the idea of 'retro' thrash. (Seriously, L.A. may have a huge metal scene but it also tends to produce legions of shitty bands.)


I agree with you. People who claim that the so-called retro bands do exactly the same thing as 80's bands, are obviously deaf or suffer from some severe mental disorder. I am yet to find a modern band who managed to create Thrash Metal, that would easily fit 80's.

Why is everyone nowadays concerned more about not being like others and taking influences from every single possible genre, instead of playing a pure genre ?

A question to those who advocate novelty for its own sake. Why would you prefer a failed attempt at innovation over a high quality material that follows the established path ?
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MortDivine
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:16 pm 
 

While I tend to agree that retro-thrash is usually shit, I can't say the same about the current wave of OSDM revival bands. Evocation, Deathevokation, Repugnant, Ribspreader, Tribulation, Necrovation, Ignivomous, etc. All give me hope for death metal in the modern times. Sure they'll never touch At The Gates, Therion, Morbid Angel, Eucharist, or The Chasm but come on man they're far more welcome than any of these slam and brutal DM bullshit bands.

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:34 pm 
 

Noktorn wrote:
Everything's going to have stylistic quirks even if they're cloning because they're not the same people; it's unavoidable and that alone isn't going to make a band unique unless we're going from some greater 'you're all special in your own way' snowflake theory.

No shit, that's exactly what I said. What I meant was, your problem is one of degree.

Noktorn wrote:
What's wrong with saying that bands should be more unique and better? I thought that was something that just about everyone could get behind.

Because if bands could simply "be more unique and better" don't you think they would be? It's easier said than done, and if you're saying to yourself "I can do better than that," well, not yet you haven't.

Noktorn wrote:
Anyway, you can reduce just about any argument about metal to that, but the more precise issue is that the retro philosophy tends to breed shitty music in great numbers.

No you can't, and I have yet to see any kind of proof regarding your second claim. Who says retro philosophy breeds shitty music in any greater numbers (or percentage, anyway) than, say, deathcore? Your whole argument is silly and self-centered, essentially "why can't everyone come up with ideas that are new and interesting to me, that at the same time I don't think are shitty!?" Well, because it's hard, genius, and not everyone is out to please you. People turn to "retro" ideas, because for many those were the last ideas they think were good in large numbers.
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wight_ghoul
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:44 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:37 pm 
 

thomash wrote:
CryingForDeath wrote:
And also, the age of most of these bands is early 20's or usually under. A very small percentage of the bands have made a second album or really had any time to develop.
I know on our part that our second album we just made sounds pretty different from the first. Our first album was pretty much our "warbringer garage days- best of", and for what it was I'm pretty fucking proud of it.

This is very true. I think it merits some patience and tolerance considering that many of the 'retro' bands still have a lot of room for development.

I'm glad we get to hear the perspective of a member of this movement who has had some significant success. I believe I had discussed this earlier and to some extent I agree. But I think many would also agree that for some bands "retro" has become the destination rather than a step on a journey. And even if it isn't, the movement has already become pretty huge as it is. I have no problem with bands taking time to find their sound, but I'd rather they did it before they were taking up the opening spots for bands that I'm paying good money to see.

DeathFog wrote:
A question to those who advocate novelty for its own sake. Why would you prefer a failed attempt at innovation over a high quality material that follows the established path ?

Read the thread, dude. Maybe this exchange, at least, should clarify that novelty for novelty's sake is not being presented as a good or only or best alternative to retro. I can only speak for myself of course, but I think one poster surmised the position well:

JCC wrote:
An interesting musical experiment that falls flat on its face is redeemed by trying something different, and an excellent but predictable retro album is demeaned by its inability to create something new.

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Lich_King
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:23 pm 
 

Ahh, this topic. Always a joy. I only read the first post, so pardon me for missing the rest of this.

I've had discussions on this a few different times, from a few different angles. What I've come to is that the detractors seem to think you need to bring something new and fresh into metal to be valid, and a lot of us making this stuff don't give a shit what you want. We're making the kind of music we want to make, and it happens to have originated in the 80's. We're making NEW music in an OLD mold, and that rubs some people the wrong way. They'll say we're retro thrash, we're ripping off riffs, we're just following a trend, we're not trying to break new ground, etc.

The truth is that we just want to make it and there's a bunch of people that want to listen. If you don't, feel free to enjoy fresh bands doing their own thing like Opeth or something. Me, I'll take old, stale metal that sounds good.

I'll say this though, and I've said it before- it embarrasses me that so many of us are following the fashion shit of the 80's thrash scene. Tight jeans, vests, high-tops. THAT'S trend-following... anything that follows a style that has nothing to do with the actual music.
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