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lennonlikesmetal
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:25 am
Posts: 4641
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:44 am 
 

Ritual_Suicide wrote:
Originallity doesn't automatically equal progression. How many times have you heard someone refer to Dimmu Borgir as "modern" black metal? How about the retards who think Pantera reinvented thrash? The Sword has been called "modern" doom and Dragonforce has been labeled by some as "progressive" becasue of their use of video game sounds. Let us also take a moment to remember the passing of 80's Slayer in 1998.
Being retro isn't automatically a bad thing either. How many bands are praised for their consistency (Motorhead, Amon Amarth)? And of course the new bands won't have the energy of the old ones becasue the old ones were, ORIGINAL!!!
Besides, the thrash revival trend is better than the modern metalcore trend.

Thrash 'Till Death :headbang:


How exactly did 80's Slayer die in 1998?

I'm not sure if Amon Amarth get that praised.

Motorhead can be called consistent, but mostly because people are suprised that Lemmy is still alive and/or still wanting to bash out the tunes.

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VRR
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:57 am
Posts: 721
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:48 am 
 

I read the first post in this thread and - to me - it just seems a highly-generalised (and very blinkered) over-view of current music.

The "retro" bands would only be a stifling problem which prevents creativity and innovation if their very existence somehow were to prevent other bands from being musically experimental. Which is not true.

Secondly, there is an implication that playing "old style" music is inherently bad or -more accurately - pointless, just because it is no longer the cutting edge. Why is metal so special in this respect? Countless jazz bands play music which would have been palatable in the 1920s. There are still bands who play skiffle, 60s style pop music, r'n'r, funk, etc. Why should heavy metal forget its past?

Perhaps this dislike for "slightly older sounding bands" is a question of fashion, though I will no doubt get abuse for pointing this out. There is nothing more detestable to youth movements than that which was fashionable for the generation 5,6,7 years older than themselves. So all the people saying that "new thrash bands suck" or whatever, are most likely just targeting the popular music of their elders (and clearly betters).

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Nochielo
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 2388
Location: Puerto Rico
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:50 am 
 

Retro bands lack originality, we can all agree. However (in my opinion), being unoriginal and being bad is not the same. I mean, half the black metal bands are a clone of Celtic Frost and the other half are clones of Emperor. That doesn't mean that any of them sucks. Besides, one of those clones will throw in a new influence and other bands will take notice, leading to one of those to throw in more elements, and so forth. This has lead to the creation of these really weird subgenres we can't find any albums from, that keep originality alive and well. Also something that has been done a million times can be outperformed, and thus, elevating the standards. I like to think these retro bands are just paying an homage to their heroes, and not looking to be different, but rather to be entertaining. It's like pop music, but for metal audiences.

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caspian
Old Man Yells at Car Park

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:53 am 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Well, let's face it, folks: what was the last real genre to be founded? Black metal? Metalcore, if you want to count that as separate from crossover? Metal's days of huge leaps in creativity I think are well and truly over.


While I would essentially agree with this, these sort of statements have been thrown around in a heap of different context, and they're normally shown as short sighted with the benefit of hindsight.
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
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Location: Yorkshire
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:55 am 
 

Noktorn wrote:
nothing to advance the genre in any regard


Let's assume the bands aren't completely vapid and can actually write decent songs, wouldn't that be doing something to forward the genre in some sense? I'd say some of my favourite music is what could be deemed as 'retro'. You know, I don't really think Be Forewarned or Saint Vitus's debut could be called cutting edge. It's always about being forward thinking but rather having personality, good songs and talent. I generally don't like this whole "X and Y are killing metal" stuff, for me this would have to entail them coming into my house, destroying my record collection and then removing all memories I have of these records.
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Wet Pussy
Waterlogged

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:13 pm
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Location: Pakistan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:56 am 
 

I don't understand all this "retro bands lack origininality" thing. Fueled By Fire play a style of thrash similar to Feel The Fire and Kill Em All, AND manage to sound different. how many thrash bands from the 80's had a sound like that (barring the debut albums of Anthrax, Metallica and Overkill). Warbringer sound like Pleasure to Kill mixed with Slayer and Metallica-ish solos. How many 80's thrash bands sound like that? The reason I like the retro-thrash thing is because these bands are devoted to making the GOOD style of thrash, the pre-87 style.

As for new metal genres being formed, plenty have been formed after black metal. Stoner, Sludge, Southern, Funeral Doom, Groove were formed after black metal (depends on which date you see as the birth of bm.) Recently, black metal has been mixing with crust punk and shoegaze, which I see as a good sign for the "development" of metal since every time the boundaries of metal have been pushed, punk has been involved.
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Bezerko
Vladimir Poopin

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:57 am 
 

ANationalAcrobat wrote:
Noktorn wrote:
nothing to advance the genre in any regard


Let's assume the bands aren't completely vapid and can actually write decent songs, wouldn't that be doing something to forward the genre in some sense? I'd say some of my favourite music is what could be deemed as 'retro'. You know, I don't really think Be Forewarned or Saint Vitus's debut could be called cutting edge. It's always about being forward thinking but rather having personality, good songs and talent. I generally don't like this whole "X and Y are killing metal" stuff, for me this would have to entail them coming into my house, destroying my record collection and then removing all memories I have of these records.


Unless it's Opeth, in which case it's not just acceptable, but necessary to make killing metal comments.

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Zdan
Veteran

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:59 am 
 

Bezerko wrote:
ANationalAcrobat wrote:
Noktorn wrote:
nothing to advance the genre in any regard


Let's assume the bands aren't completely vapid and can actually write decent songs, wouldn't that be doing something to forward the genre in some sense? I'd say some of my favourite music is what could be deemed as 'retro'. You know, I don't really think Be Forewarned or Saint Vitus's debut could be called cutting edge. It's always about being forward thinking but rather having personality, good songs and talent. I generally don't like this whole "X and Y are killing metal" stuff, for me this would have to entail them coming into my house, destroying my record collection and then removing all memories I have of these records.


Unless it's Opeth, in which case it's not just acceptable, but necessary to make killing metal comments.


See my previous post. Too much "orginality" for it's own sake. If you want to make a neo-prog rock album fine but do not try to masquerade it as metal.

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ENKC
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:19 am 
 

New styles aren't killing metal. Old styles aren't killing metal. Metal isn't dead and isn't dying. Good music is being made. Get over it.
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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:26 am 
 

Wet Pussy wrote:
Recently, black metal has been mixing with crust punk and shoegaze, which I see as a good sign for the "development" of metal since every time the boundaries of metal have been pushed, punk has been involved.


Shoegaze ain't no punk and mixing it with metal has yet to produce anything other than limp-dicked imitation black metal suitable for tea with granny.

Crust, on the other hand, I do think goes well with black metal.
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Funereal
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:52 am
Posts: 135
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:03 am 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Crust, on the other hand, I do think goes well with black metal.
Yeah, but what's gay is people acting like this is some new revelation. GBH, Discharge, it's been there from the start.

I don't know...this isn't quite on topic, but I've always found it hilarious when people born in the late 80s (or even in the 90s-hah!) start opening their mouths about poseurs when all they can manage to do with their lives is pretend they are part of the 80s metal scene.
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Vrede
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:07 pm
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:06 am 
 

"You can't kill the metal...
The metal will live on..."
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Crick wrote:
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Zdan
Veteran

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2762
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:09 am 
 

Funereal wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Crust, on the other hand, I do think goes well with black metal.
Yeah, but what's gay is people acting like this is some new revelation. GBH, Discharge, it's been there from the start.

I don't know...this isn't quite on topic, but I've always found it hilarious when people born in the late 80s (or even in the 90s-hah!) start opening their mouths about poseurs when all they can manage to do with their lives is pretend they are part of the 80s metal scene.


And being born earlier gives the prestige and oomph to talk about the 80's metal scene and poseurs? So generally age=win? Idiocy.

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Funereal
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:52 am
Posts: 135
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:30 am 
 

Zdan wrote:
Funereal wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Crust, on the other hand, I do think goes well with black metal.
Yeah, but what's gay is people acting like this is some new revelation. GBH, Discharge, it's been there from the start.

I don't know...this isn't quite on topic, but I've always found it hilarious when people born in the late 80s (or even in the 90s-hah!) start opening their mouths about poseurs when all they can manage to do with their lives is pretend they are part of the 80s metal scene.


And being born earlier gives the prestige and oomph to talk about the 80's metal scene and poseurs? So generally age=win? Idiocy.

I'm only 24 myself.
I just tire of seeing kids wearing white hitops I guess.
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saintinhell
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:19 am
Posts: 1351
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:34 am 
 

The_Boss wrote:
You can never have enough GOOD thrash or death metal, who gives a fuck if it's 'retro'.


Even if they sound too much like each other? Sorry, I disagree. Other than that, I am neutral about retro thrash or retro any other metal genre. In fact I am quite alright with it if it doesn't mean copy-pasting a select few bands lock, stock and barrel. That is, if it sounds sort of like Kreator but not exactly like something Kreator would have done, I am ok with it though I can never get myself to like it as much as an original thrash masterpiece, even if the new 'retro' album is much better executed and produced. Also, everything that draws from the old school is not retro either, that is to suggest that great ideas were so finite in the old school, which is not really true.

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OneRodeToAsaBay
Unangeschnallt den Bullen reingefahren

Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:49 pm
Posts: 2199
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:37 am 
 

Funereal wrote:
I don't know...this isn't quite on topic, but I've always found it hilarious when people born in the late 80s (or even in the 90s-hah!) start opening their mouths about poseurs when all they can manage to do with their lives is pretend they are part of the 80s metal scene.

Sounds like this is directed at the legion of retro thrashers. As someone who experienced the 80s for a full glorious four months (never mind that I was a baby), I can tell ya, those were the days man!

Kidding aside, I believe it was ENKC who summed up my opinion best:
ENKC wrote:
New styles aren't killing metal. Old styles aren't killing metal. Metal isn't dead and isn't dying. Good music is being made. Get over it.

Really, I've been generally ignoring most boring retro thrash for a while now, just as I've been ignoring metalcore/deathcore/whatever else retrothrash is a reaction to. I don't care much for it but I don't see it as a debilitating plague, especially considering that metal has successfully survived other terrible musical movements and entire armies of copycat bands. Really, the whole ignoring thing isn't nearly as difficult as it seems.

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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
Posts: 8854
Location: Yorkshire
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:05 am 
 

Bezerko wrote:
ANationalAcrobat wrote:
Noktorn wrote:
nothing to advance the genre in any regard


Let's assume the bands aren't completely vapid and can actually write decent songs, wouldn't that be doing something to forward the genre in some sense? I'd say some of my favourite music is what could be deemed as 'retro'. You know, I don't really think Be Forewarned or Saint Vitus's debut could be called cutting edge. It's always about being forward thinking but rather having personality, good songs and talent. I generally don't like this whole "X and Y are killing metal" stuff, for me this would have to entail them coming into my house, destroying my record collection and then removing all memories I have of these records.


Unless it's Opeth, in which case it's not just acceptable, but necessary to make killing metal comments.


I don't think Opeth ever had much relation to my sort of metal, anyway. If anything it's made me actively seek out progressive metal bands that avoid the trappings of Opeth (see: Psychotic Waltz, and hopefully others I'll discover at some point) and thus it has had a positive impact on my own listening.
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elf48687789
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:03 pm
Posts: 1662
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:10 am 
 

I agree that there is no point in making retro music, and I've seen that trend towards retro-thrash too. But it's probably worse with power metal, which can't really compare to some stuff made more than 20 years ago. I do enjoy listening to a lot of music from the 1980s, but I don't think people should make music exactly like that nowadays, which isn't to say people can't build upon these styles and make more modern music, but it's just not being done much.

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_Aargh
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:11 pm
Posts: 415
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:13 am 
 

I wouldn't say "retro" is killing metal. It's more like artificial respiration, and bands who just copy other bands probably would never compose anything worth hearing anyway. I'd be more worried about the increasing popularity of stoner, sludge, drone and other trendy "metal" genres that don't really have a lot to do with metal anymore. I've got nothing against non-metal influences in metal as long as the music is still metal, but too often these influences replace some of the metalness instead of adding to it, and that's something I don't tolerate.

In general I just think metal would need more leaders and less followers; people with vision and enough courage to stand out from the rest. Definitely NOT Opeth or Akercocke or Anaal Nathrakh or anything even remotely like that. I'm talking about people who can stay true to the spirit of metal but still sound original without becoming pretentious. Every band doesn't have to reinvent metal or even try to.

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Noktorn
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:31 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:02 am 
 

For those all hung up on the phrase 'killing metal', it's just hyperbole. But then again, it doesn't need to have zero brain activity to be effectively dead. If it's completely fucking boring, it's dead for all intents and purposes. Additionally, all the "let them do what they want" hand-waving is a bit disturbing; seems like an easy way to dismiss any discussion of, well, anything at all.

One doesn't have to be needlessly progressive to make original, interesting music. It just requires a reinterpretation of current ideas into something new. For instance, I'm working with a friend on a demo for a band which is going to take Von style occultism and minimalism and apply it to a death/goregrind style. This is by no means a stirringly original idea, but it hasn't precisely been done before and isn't slavishly worshiping anything in particular. It's not hard to come up with ideas like that.

One of the main problems of a scene obsessed with times past is that it actively discourages innovation and creativity in favor of a more precise cloning. Sounding like Kreator but having some Metallica-style solos is in no way, shape, or form innovative, so can anyone name a popular retro-thrash band who's actively attempting something new with their music? Again, simply replicating two old thrash bands instead of one does NOT count.

As I said, one of the fundamental problems of retro music is that in nearly 100% of cases, these bands cannot sound as good as the ones they're attempting to steal from. So it's not just that they're retro, it's that they suck too.
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VRR
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:57 am
Posts: 721
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:51 am 
 

Noktorn wrote:
One of the main problems of a scene obsessed with times past is that it actively discourages innovation


That innovation/derivation dichotomy just doesn't occur in the real world to such black and white extremes as you imply. And I have never heard anyone express the opinion that the two are mutually exclusive.

Strangely though, this quoted sentence is something I have heard repeated frequently, coming from bands who are not getting the recognition they think they deserve. It is usually their belief that they are too radical and groundbreaking to be understood by closed-minded metalheads. In reality, they are just making bad music, innovative or not.

If a band tries only to sound exactly like a specific old band then - I agree - they are a completely pointless band, and there are many of those about nowadays. But they are wasting nothing but their own time - they are never going to be important enough to damage an entire type of music.

Also, you haven't explained yet why you think it is not considered damaging for bands to play "old fashioned" jazz, rock 'n' roll, funk - or even classical - but when attempted with heavy metal it somehow damages a genre as a whole, (unless you do think it is also damaging to these other genres too, which would be crazy).

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Shutdown
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:20 pm
Posts: 2078
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:54 am 
 

"Metal" hasn't been metal for nearly 15 years. Black and death metal stopped being metal when they waved goodbye to thrash, while what people call power metal is nothing more than pop/rock with fast distorted guitars. If you want "metal" to progress even further in the direction it has been going in for the last 10 to 15 years then you should probably start listening to other genres of music. I would agree, though, that bands should step back 15 to 20 years and try to play around with the ideas of the time in the hope of finding the "correct" direction that metal should have headed in. Maybe then metal wouldn't be overrun by countless blastbeat dependent "death metal" bands, embarrassing "power metal" bands and thousands of samey retro bands.

One can hope.

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Tea_and_Crumpets
"Fail" is a sentence fragment.

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:00 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:39 pm 
 

I see nothing wrong with retro bands. There will always be those who push the music in brave new directions as well. Just look at the direction bands like Solefald, Borknagar, Ulver and Arcturus have evolved/pushed forward black metal.

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ksbluesfan
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:08 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:04 pm 
 

Perhaps the first death and black metal bands were just ahead of their time. It happens. I think Black Sabbath was way ahead of their time.

Music goes in cycles. It seems like there has to be a grass roots movement to push music to the next phase. Punk was a reaction to the music industry of the 1970. The NWOBHM was a reaction to new wave. Grunge was a reaction to hair bands. The fathers of black metal and death metal were cut from the same do-it-yourself cloth. The next wave of underground extreme metal will follow the same path.

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Noktorn
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:51 pm 
 

Tea_and_Crumpets wrote:
I see nothing wrong with retro bands. There will always be those who push the music in brave new directions as well. Just look at the direction bands like Solefald, Borknagar, Ulver and Arcturus have evolved/pushed forward black metal.


Into crappy prog rock and trip-hop? No thanks!
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Zdan
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:54 pm 
 

Noktorn wrote:
Tea_and_Crumpets wrote:
I see nothing wrong with retro bands. There will always be those who push the music in brave new directions as well. Just look at the direction bands like Solefald, Borknagar, Ulver and Arcturus have evolved/pushed forward black metal.


Into crappy prog rock and trip-hop? No thanks!


Now wait a minute here. Here is the progression you so crave and yet you disown it totally. Make up your mind.

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JCC
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:04 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:14 pm 
 

The only real problem with these retro thrash bands is that while they're having praised lumped upon them as if they just saved metal from the depths of depravity, great new bands get left in the large shadow of these retro acts. If you like playing that style of music, play it, but the way that the metal press cums all over Evile for playing riffs that sound like they were lifted straight from 1983 is just depriving fresh music of the attention that it needs to make an impact.

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_Aargh
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:11 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:15 pm 
 

Zdan wrote:
Now wait a minute here. Here is the progression you so crave and yet you disown it totally. Make up your mind.

It's not very good progression if metal loses it's metalness in the process.

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Zdan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:20 pm 
 

_Aargh wrote:
Zdan wrote:
Now wait a minute here. Here is the progression you so crave and yet you disown it totally. Make up your mind.

It's not very good progression if metal loses it's metalness in the process.


I did not say it was a good progression - but it's progression - and Noktorn obviously yearns for progression.

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thomash
Metal Philosopher

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:21 pm 
 

I like progression and innovation as much as the next guy, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with some 'retro' thrash, death, etc. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect every metal band to help the genre 'progress;' let's face it, most bands are not visionaries. I'd prefer that ye olde garage band play in an established genre than try to reinvent the wheel since they're much more likely to sound like shit if they're 'biting off more than they can chew,' so to speak. I like old-school metal, so I don't see what the big deal is about bands playing in that style.

It seems to me that any and all criticisms of the phenomena are reducible to criticisms of bands' quality. However, that's not exclusive to 'retro' movements. There were plenty of shitty thrash and death metal bands when the styles were knew; it only seems different because we've got a selective memory about old movements. Things look better in retrospect than they probably did at the time. Ultimately, 'retro' movements should be evaluated just like other musical movements; on the basis of musical quality. On that measure, this movement has contributed some very worthwhile bands, e.g., Diamond Plate. Honestly, I'd say that Diamond Plate single-handedly justifies the entire retro thrash movement.

One might argue that the spirit motivating 'retro' movements is different from the original movements they pay homage to, but I doubt that it is so simple. Almost all musical movements take some cues from past genres; for example, thrash drew from NWOBHM and hardcore punk, while death metal, in turn, drew from thrash and grindcore. The point is that innovation in metal generally lies in the fusion of ideas from previous styles. 'Retro' movements, arguably, don't fuse different styles but even that is debatable. Warbringer, for example, display strong influences from extreme metal despite the fact that they are clearly a 'retro' thrash band. I don't think that's an uncommon scenario. In actuality, even 'retro' movements create something new, even if it is unintentional.

One note on progression: I think that any worthwhile progression in metal will come from metalheads who are rather open-minded about their music for reasons that should be clear from my post. Trying to be the most 'evil' or authentic black metal band does absolutely nothing to contribute to the genre's progression.

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_Aargh
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:36 pm 
 

thomash wrote:
I like progression and innovation as much as the next guy, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with some 'retro' thrash, death, etc. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect every metal band to help the genre 'progress;' let's face it, most bands are not visionaries. I'd prefer that ye olde garage band play in an established genre than try to reinvent the wheel since they're much more likely to sound like shit if they're 'biting off more than they can chew,' so to speak.

I find it really weird that a band would like to be "just another thrash band" or something like that. Where's the ambition? I'm very close-minded when it comes to metal, but I still don't try to limit myself too much when making music.

Zdan wrote:
I did not say it was a good progression - but it's progression - and Noktorn obviously yearns for progression.

That still doesn't mean that all progression would be welcome. It seems to me that Noktorn just hopes that metal doesn't become stagnant. If metal bands just get stuck in the 80's without even trying to add anything new to it, without trying to take the music to the next level, eventually metal might turn into self-parody. And again, this is coming from someone who's favorite albums were all released in the 70's, 80's or early 90's. Most "legendary" albums were innovative, ground-breaking or just unique at the time of their release, and that's why those albums are classics. Where are the classics of today?

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Zdan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:42 pm 
 

_Aargh wrote:
thomash wrote:
I like progression and innovation as much as the next guy, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with some 'retro' thrash, death, etc. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect every metal band to help the genre 'progress;' let's face it, most bands are not visionaries. I'd prefer that ye olde garage band play in an established genre than try to reinvent the wheel since they're much more likely to sound like shit if they're 'biting off more than they can chew,' so to speak.

I find it really weird that a band would like to be "just another thrash band" or something like that. Where's the ambition? I'm very close-minded when it comes to metal, but I still don't try to limit myself too much when making music.

Zdan wrote:
I did not say it was a good progression - but it's progression - and Noktorn obviously yearns for progression.

That still doesn't mean that all progression would be welcome. It seems to me that Noktorn just hopes that metal doesn't become stagnant. If metal bands just get stuck in the 80's without even trying to add anything new to it, without trying to take the music to the next level, eventually metal might turn into self-parody. And again, this is coming from someone who's favorite albums were all released in the 70's, 80's or early 90's. Most "legendary" albums were innovative, ground-breaking or just unique at the time of their release, and that's why those albums are classics. Where are the classics of today?


The problem is the limited ability of having both progression and 'metalness' included. At this point there is only so much you can do without diluting the metalness of your band/record. Say you are a thrash band in this day and age? What can you do to stand out? Mix influences from other genres of metal (been done before) or mix influences from a plethora of older thrash bands (what Noktorn perceives as stagnant).

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wight_ghoul
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:44 pm
Posts: 283
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:46 pm 
 

thomash wrote:
I'd prefer that ye olde garage band play in an established genre than try to reinvent the wheel since they're much more likely to sound like shit if they're 'biting off more than they can chew,' so to speak.

Why? A failed musical experiment is much more interesting than successful redundancy. New ideas that don't turn out so well can be built upon by other bands.

thomash wrote:
Ultimately, 'retro' movements should be evaluated just like other musical movements; on the basis of musical quality.

I don't think so. Even if a retro band is equal musically to the classics, there's no point in listening to them. Given two thrash albums of equal musical quality I'll choose the original over an unimaginative clone album done twenty-five years later.

I don't think the problem with retro thrash is musical quality at all; the problem is that it's thrash for thrash's sake.

Zdan wrote:
Say you are a thrash band in this day and age? What can you do to stand out? Mix influences from other genres of metal (been done before) or mix influences from a plethora of older thrash bands (what Noktorn perceives as stagnant).

If that's all you can come up with then don't start a band. Or at least don't start a thrash band. Start a band if you have some sort of vaguely new idea, some sort of message, something besides "I want to play thrash just like all these other great bands."

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Noktorn
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:31 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:48 pm 
 

Zdan wrote:
Say you are a thrash band in this day and age? What can you do to stand out? Mix influences from other genres of metal (been done before) or mix influences from a plethora of older thrash bands (what Noktorn perceives as stagnant).


Combat, a thrash band who began as Napalm in the '80s, is making very modern thrash metal that's still true the genre while writing very unconventional riffs that still fit the thrash paradigm while experimenting with unique and dissonant chord structures and chaotic drumming. Completely metal yet completely progressive.
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Zdan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:54 pm 
 

wight_ghoul: Now explain to me why the hell should I have a new idea if I want to play thrash metal today? Is this a requirement of some sort? Toxic Holocaust has no new idea or message yet they burst out some of the best Motorhead-rockin' thrash metal of the modern age. And their imagery and lyrics are basicly thrash cliches. Are you saying it is a failed band?

Noktorn: I know Combat and we have to agree to disagree here - I see nothing progressive about them. Nothing at all. I guess for example if a thrash band would mix a type of sound like the first Psychotic Waltz album into a thrash landscape - I could see that as progressive on some level.

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DenialofMortality
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:31 pm
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Location: Austria
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:54 pm 
 

The problem is shown by the lack/misintepretation of what is called a classic and how the 80s scene has been back then.

I dont think that the musicians who wrote what we nowadays call classics were created by primarily(or even secondarily) aiming to create something new.It was more their spirit of pushing the extremes to the maxium which was why new riffing/drumming pattern were created to accomplish that.In other words,the process of attaining true,not overstrained or pushed originality is gained through passion and enthusiasm.

Most metalheads nowadays lack the passion of the old bands,and a lack of passion leads to a lower level of talent awakened by the bands.Thus originality is often rejected since its used more of a gimmick than anything else nowadays.

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JCC
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 11
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:57 pm 
 

Zdan wrote:
wight_ghoul: Now explain to me why the hell should I have a new idea if I want to play thrash metal today? Is this a requirement of some sort? Toxic Holocaust has no new idea or message yet they burst out some of the best Motorhead-rockin' thrash metal of the modern age. And their imagery and lyrics are basicly thrash cliches. Are you saying it is a failed band?

Playing generic thrash is never a problem. The problem is when these bands are so highly lauded and other music is forgotten. I've seen plenty of polls where retro thrash bands get things like 'Band of the Year' or 'Album of the Year', for playing a sound that's already done to death, simply because it apparently delays the onset of 'Trivium metal' and its world domination. Piling praise upon retro thrash bands lowers the bar for other acts.
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_Aargh
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:11 pm
Posts: 415
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:59 pm 
 

Zdan wrote:
The problem is the limited ability of having both progression and 'metalness' included. At this point there is only so much you can do without diluting the metalness of your band/record. Say you are a thrash band in this day and age? What can you do to stand out? Mix influences from other genres of metal (been done before) or mix influences from a plethora of older thrash bands (what Noktorn perceives as stagnant).

This is the excuse I've heard most often. What about not worrying if your band is thrash or not or whether it's influenced by other genres or not? What about trying to make something of your own instead of just mixing different influences together? You'll just need to have a strong enough vision of the band instead of just thinking "let's play some fucking thrash". Thrash (and metal) is much more than just a bunch of riffs thrown in together. I've in fact thought about starting a thrash side project, and even though I haven't written a single riff yet, I already know what it would sound like.

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Zdan
Veteran

Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
Posts: 2762
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:04 pm 
 

_Aargh wrote:
Zdan wrote:
The problem is the limited ability of having both progression and 'metalness' included. At this point there is only so much you can do without diluting the metalness of your band/record. Say you are a thrash band in this day and age? What can you do to stand out? Mix influences from other genres of metal (been done before) or mix influences from a plethora of older thrash bands (what Noktorn perceives as stagnant).

This is the excuse I've heard most often. What about not worrying if your band is thrash or not or whether it's influenced by other genres or not? What about trying to make something of your own instead of just mixing different influences together? You'll just need to have a strong enough vision of the band instead of just thinking "let's play some fucking thrash". Thrash (and metal) is much more than just a bunch of riffs thrown in together. I've in fact thought about starting a thrash side project, and even though I haven't written a single riff yet, I already know what it would sound like.


The problem that is at hand here is that most of those musicians (and I do interviews and talked to a fair share of them) want to "play some fuckin' thrash!". That is their purpose. Obviously their influences and what they listen to shine through and we get diffrent sounds - Warbringer, Fueled By Fire and Toxic Holocaust do not sound much alike.

As for praise - I agree that overpraising a band is idiocy. However saying something is shit just because it is not the most original record on earth is also stupid. The last Toxic Holocaust album is good piece of rockin' speed/thrash metal. It will not win any originality awards but does it detract from it's quality - the quality of the songs and riffs?

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burning_pyre
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:29 pm
Posts: 206
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:21 pm 
 

i agree with this pst also, it makes rediculous ammonts of sense, but unfortunately it seems like these throwback band you speak, look to the past seeking inspiration and influence yet copy, ludicrous amounts of music that is based highly on the old scool scene yet fail due to the modernisational view of present music, there will be and are successful bands amongst them though, thats for sure

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