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Noktorn
Veteran

Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:31 pm
Posts: 2880
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:45 pm 
 

There's two central reasons for this and they're essentially wrapped up in each other:

1. It's unnecessarily regressive and does nothing to advance the genre in any regard. It would be one thing if throwback death and thrash metal bands were experimenting with thematics or presentation, but the fact is that the vast majority of these sorts of bands are simply cloning the oldschool sound brick by brick, albeit with better production. This is obviously not some alarmist statement saying that metal isn't going anywhere new (though it's certainly going there slow as fuck), but retreading the same ideas that were mastered numerous years ago does nothing but generate sales. Most of these throwback bands entirely lack the spirit of the original bands, which leads to my next point...

2. Throwback death and thrash metal bands are essentially a mockery of oldschool thrash and death metal. Let me expound upon that a little:

Metalheads are fairly schizophrenic as to their views of what the music actually is. It seems that they'll go back and forth on whether it's simply another genre of music or a greater movement/lifestyle, generally when it's convenient for them. Someone challenging the validity of the art? Lifestyle. Someone talking about how Slayer made a kid commit suicide? "It's just music, man!"

Now coming from this direction you can see a fundamental problem with the idea of throwback bands and viewing metal as more than simply a sound. Doesn't the very idea of having a throwback metal band seem sort of foul to anyone but me? The very idea of it fails to recognize that oldschool thrash and death metal bands sounded the way they did for a reason, and it's not simply the fact that it was the trend at the time. All art is precisely how it is due to the moment of its creation, and so these late '80s, early '90s thrash and death metal albums fundamentally cannot be replicated by a new generation of people in all respects. Despite the best attempts to clone the sound (which will generally end up approximating the oldschool sound), these bands almost 100% of the time fail to live up to the legacy of the oldschool thrash and death metal bands.

A possible solution: start looking towards past bands as inspiration for new ideas, not a pattern to slavishly follow. No matter how hard you try, you're not going to be Morbid Angel, even if you really, really like 'Altars Of Madness'.
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White_Witch
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:53 pm
Posts: 226
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:53 pm 
 

Why do all these types want metal to move forward? If you don't like metal the way it is and has been then fuck off.
I don't agree with you at all.

EDIT: I'm confused by the topic. Disregard my post. Are you saying bands are copying and are not original? This entire topic was done a few days ago, and like someone there said, shit bands have been copying better acts since the inception of metal. The good stuff stands out and the shit is forgotten, creating the image of the past far outshining the present.


Last edited by White_Witch on Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Evil_Johnny_666
Reigning king of the night

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:54 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:58 pm 
 

I agree. I must admit I like bands like Bonded by Blood and Gama Bomb, but I can live without them, there are far too much bands doing what has been done to death. I'd rather listen to Agent Orange or Terrible Certainty 20 times a day than 20 different retro thrash bands. And there is enough stuff of old genres to not be bored.

Some people highly condemns the new Kreator albums or technical death metal but they actually break borders put by the genre. Modern production is there for a reason too. Just look at the upcoming Obscura album Cosmogenesis. I listened to some tracks on their myspace and sounds like it's gonna be a modern classic. Not the musical masturbation that you may think a band of the genre often do, their songwriting is far more coherent than some, they have learned through the errors of others and used everything at hand to make something new and fresh.


Last edited by Evil_Johnny_666 on Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BardInTheForest
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Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:59 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:02 pm 
 

If there are riffs left to write, let people write them. That said, if they're going to make it in a cliche, ironic and intentionally or unintentionally making a mockery of subgenres, then well, they're doing just that. The concept of attempting to emulate the sound of a scene 20-30 years ago does not necessarily cause any problems for me unless, of course, they do as previously stated.

Nothing is "killing" metal or anything else, however. If that was the case then it would certainly be hard to deny that metal has been "dying" over the last decade or so since this whole metalcore thing blew up -- and all the stupid fucks who've been flooding into the metal scene with that. Scenes like that, including this retro/throwback stuff, will come and go and remnants of them will likely last forever, fortunately or unfortunately.

All this said, I'd rather see someone genuinely try to emulate a genre more or less long dead than see someone playing completely unartistic, gratuitous and trendy garbage in some new and "creative" genre.

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NecroFile
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:01 am
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:07 pm 
 

I don't like throwback bands like Wolfmother and Lordi and Evile. It seems like they're trying to sell themselves exclusively to the fans of the bands they're ripping off, nevermind the rest of us.

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the16th6toothson
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:09 pm 
 

people stealing music to the point of labels closing is whats killing metal
times are rough financially... yah but without labels putting out metal times will be ROUGHER!
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DenialofMortality
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Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:31 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:11 pm 
 

Vomitory,Hypnosia,Ritual Carnage,Fatal Embrace,Hibria...to name a few.

Figuire the rest of what my post is about yourself,:)

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circleofdestruction
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 am
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:29 pm 
 

White_Witch wrote:
Why do all these types want metal to move forward? If you don't like metal the way it is and has been then fuck off.
I don't agree with you at all..

Agreed with all this.

If you don't like what a particular band or genre is doing, you don't have to support that band/genre. It's possible just to ignore stuff you don' like, or so it's always seemed to me. I don't like too much of this stuff either, but I ignore it entirely.
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Misainzig
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:34 pm 
 

I've found that the greatest Thrash bands with a formation post-2000 are the most original ones, such as the instrumental monstrosity Mastery. Very heavy pummeling thrash, yet not attempting to go for a retro feel. They are very fine musicians, and I hope their new vocalist doesn't fuck it up.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:40 pm 
 

I agree with Noktorn, I just care a bit less. It's more of a subliminal thing for me: I don't really hold any hate for these bands, I just shy away from them because I have better things to listen to. Some of them are alright, but most of the time, he's right - just listen to the old bands instead. I can live without these retro bands. And yes, nothing is "killing" metal.
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The_Boss
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:40 pm 
 

You can never have enough GOOD thrash or death metal, who gives a fuck if it's 'retro'.
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Unorthodox
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:08 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:42 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I agree with Noktorn, I just care a bit less. It's more of a subliminal thing for me: I don't really hold any hate for these bands, I just shy away from them because I have better things to listen to. Some of them are alright, but most of the time, he's right - just listen to the old bands instead. I can live without these retro bands. And yes, nothing is "killing" metal.


This. I'm not really someone to be really into the bands that classify themselves as "old school death metal" or "the roots of pure norwegian black metal" if they weren't in the genre when that sound was the only sound in the genre. It's not like what metal has turned into is bad at all...

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Lepernicus
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Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:26 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:44 pm 
 

This thread is retro.
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The_Beast_in_Black
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:49 pm 
 

Originality is nice, but sometimes it leads to something that just doesn't work... Like that horrible Septic Tomb band! ZING!

But seriously, I agree White_Witch. Since when is it absolutely necessary that we continue to "push the boundaries"? Granted, most retro-thrash is crap, but it is possible to play, say, oldschool death metal and still bring your own flair to the table.

And for fuck's sake, NOTHING is killing metal.
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dnelson
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:51 pm 
 

I think OP has a point when he says that many of these retro bands are amounting to little more than empty mockeries of the bands they attempt to imitate.

That being said, there are some distinctly old-school bands that do things BETTER than their influences ever did. Funebrarum is case in point.

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wight_ghoul
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:05 pm 
 

I don't like retro. Especially not bands that base their entire existence on being retro. Noktorn describes the problem well: "the very idea of it fails to recognize that oldschool thrash and death metal bands sounded the way they did for a reason." Retro bands don't sound the way they do for any reason other than that's the way a stereotypical thrash band is "supposed" to sound. They are short on ideas, don't seem overly concerned with having any kind of point or message in their music, they just want to play thrash in the most superficial and stereotypical way.

I'm not sure whether it's "killing metal", but I'm pretty sure it sucks.

(I mention thrash specifically because I think most will agree it is the most problematic genre in terms of the retro mindset)

circleofdestruction wrote:
White_Witch wrote:
Why do all these types want metal to move forward? If you don't like metal the way it is and has been then fuck off.
I don't agree with you at all..

Agreed with all this.

If you don't like what a particular band or genre is doing, you don't have to support that band/genre. It's possible just to ignore stuff you don' like, or so it's always seemed to me. I don't like too much of this stuff either, but I ignore it entirely.

Metal isn't about ignoring things you don't like, it's about attacking them in art and prose to needlessly tasteless extremes. Where would metal be if early black metal musicians just ignored Christianity?

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Cheeses_Priced
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:12 pm 
 

Hastily-written myspace albums are killing metal too, you know. Ahem.

I would count 'retro' as a symptom of decay rather than a cause.

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:22 pm 
 

Well, let's face it, folks: what was the last real genre to be founded? Black metal? Metalcore, if you want to count that as separate from crossover? Metal's days of huge leaps in creativity I think are well and truly over. Now we're basically just going to have refinements of existing sounds, subtle variations, etc., though obviously exceptions will pop up. And let's not exaggerate; though I agree a large portion of these "retro" bands suck, at least in the more traditional corners of metal there have been some quite decent ones. It's certainly harder to really capture the oldschool sound than do whatever it is contemporary bands are doing, or more accurately incorporate a large amount of oldschool influence into your sound, but it's by no means impossible. People do it because -surprise, surprise- coming up with something new is a hell of a lot harder.
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Khull
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:29 pm 
 

'Retro' to me sounds like a quick and simple way of stating 'Lack of originality.' Really, the only reason these bands exist is because they saw how successful old school thrash and death, and figured they could make a killing by rehashing the same basic material with a new coat of paint. Some of them pull it off, but at the end of the day it's still a new paint job on an outdated object, and you can only repaint that same object with so many colors before it just stops looking cool.

I'd love nothing more than to see a massive movement of originality, but originality barely sells these days. People want the kick-ass high they get when spinning their favorite classics for the umpteenth time, and 'retro' bands are only too happy to deliver.

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ThrashingMad
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Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:47 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:29 pm 
 

I have to disagree with number 2 up on there. Most sounds are based on broad ideas that can easily be shared by people coming from vastly different time periods/places. Example, black metal develop, more or less, out of a hatred for Christianity. However, that ideal is not at all exclusive to the time/place of which it grew out of.

I also don't think that intention always equals result when it comes to music, though it ofter does. A band can set out to emulate another band without really understanding why that band sounded the way they did in the first place, and still make quality music. For me, it's a thing of, as long as the music is good, I'm fine with it.

The problem I see with your way of thinking Noktorn, is that it results in a lot of bands being artificially progressive, striving only to be different from the pack, instead of trying to make good music.

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kmiller
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:12 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:32 am 
 

The_Boss wrote:
You can never have enough GOOD thrash or death metal, who gives a fuck if it's 'retro'.


This.

I don't care about the aesthetics or the 'trends' behind it. If it kicks ass, I'm all about it.

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Nahsil
Clerical Sturmgeschütz

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:36 am 
 

kmiller wrote:
The_Boss wrote:
You can never have enough GOOD thrash or death metal, who gives a fuck if it's 'retro'.


This.

I don't care about the aesthetics or the 'trends' behind it. If it kicks ass, I'm all about it.


I agree with you both, but I've found that most of these retro bands suck, with a few great ones being the minority (Witchcraft, Hypnosia etc).

I've yet to hear a revivalist thrash album anywhere near as good as Pleasure to Kill or Agent Orange or Rust in Peace.

But I don't hate it on principle.
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LotF
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:38 am 
 

If someone creates a new ballsy riff that I can cream my pants over, I'll take it.

Though I personally don't like the "new" clean edge put on an "old" sound, doesn't live up to the old stuff.
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kmiller
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:38 am 
 

Nahsil wrote:
I've yet to hear a revivalist thrash album anywhere near as good as Pleasure to Kill or Agent Orange or Rust in Peace.


Just curious, which ones have you heard?

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Nahsil
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:47 am 
 

kmiller wrote:
Nahsil wrote:
I've yet to hear a revivalist thrash album anywhere near as good as Pleasure to Kill or Agent Orange or Rust in Peace.


Just curious, which ones have you heard?


Evile, Lich King, Hexen, Master, Blistered Earth (though I heard one song after they changed their name to Graveheart and it sounded promising), Abandoned, Gama Bomb, Fastkill, Guillotine, Nocturnal Breed (if they count), Violator etc.

I'm not sure why I've heard so much of it since I only like a few of those bands and usually not all their songs.
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DaBuddha
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:49 am 
 

For the most part I agree with Noktorn. I can't stand most of this retro-thrash shit and the stupid as hell kill posers, party all the time lyrics. It's shit and everyone knows it. They all look and sound the exact same. The people who do like it are great examples of the metal mongoloid culture. Pathetic.

I don't necessarily think it's killing metal, but I know personally I'd rather listen to the original bands. Why listen to a copy when the original will always be better?
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The_Beast_in_Black
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:08 am 
 

Nahsil wrote:
kmiller wrote:
Nahsil wrote:
I've yet to hear a revivalist thrash album anywhere near as good as Pleasure to Kill or Agent Orange or Rust in Peace.


Just curious, which ones have you heard?


Evile, Lich King, Hexen, Master, Blistered Earth (though I heard one song after they changed their name to Graveheart and it sounded promising), Abandoned, Gama Bomb, Fastkill, Guillotine, Nocturnal Breed (if they count), Violator etc.

I'm not sure why I've heard so much of it since I only like a few of those bands and usually not all their songs.


Try Toxic Holocaust and Skeletonwitch. They both have their own take on thrash and don't sound like they regurgitated old riffs. Of course, you're probably not going to find any retro thrash on par with Agent Orange and such, but that doesn't mean you can't find some that is very good nonetheless.
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Nahsil
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:21 am 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Nahsil wrote:
kmiller wrote:
Nahsil wrote:
I've yet to hear a revivalist thrash album anywhere near as good as Pleasure to Kill or Agent Orange or Rust in Peace.


Just curious, which ones have you heard?


Evile, Lich King, Hexen, Master, Blistered Earth (though I heard one song after they changed their name to Graveheart and it sounded promising), Abandoned, Gama Bomb, Fastkill, Guillotine, Nocturnal Breed (if they count), Violator etc.

I'm not sure why I've heard so much of it since I only like a few of those bands and usually not all their songs.


Try Toxic Holocaust and Skeletonwitch. They both have their own take on thrash and don't sound like they regurgitated old riffs. Of course, you're probably not going to find any retro thrash on par with Agent Orange and such, but that doesn't mean you can't find some that is very good nonetheless.


I've heard them both. Skeletonwitch are terrible in my opinion, neutral feelings regarding Toxic Holocaust (haven't heard a lot).
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rawsewage
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:27 am 
 

I hate the term retro thrash. Heres an example when nsync and all that crap was popular in the nineties they didn't call them retro pop, and all they were doing was ripping off new kids on the block. I mean Thrash doesn't have a wide spectrum until the metalheads say it ain't real thrash. There is either too much groove or other crap where the heads shit on them. I see it as a can't win situation for the young thrash bands out today. Some of the bands are good and put out enjoyable material as well as death metal. Just look at Origin they quite possibly put out the best album of the year last year. So in my eyes death and thrash is alive and kicking.

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LokiGoddess
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:42 am 
 

Nahsil wrote:
I've heard them both. Skeletonwitch are terrible in my opinion, neutral feelings regarding Toxic Holocaust (haven't heard a lot).


Hmmm.... well, if you have any actual interest in modern retro thrash then I would suggest checking out bands singed to Barbarian Wrath's sister label (?) Witches Brew. Witches Brew hosts a great deal of retro thrash acts (with the notable exception of Devil Lee Rot). I can't say much for the quality of their retro thrash, as I have only heard Sauron and Deathhammer. if you do look into Witches Brew, start with Sauron. I'm not much into retro thrash myself, but Sauron is a hell of a band.
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overkill666
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:51 am 
 

BardInTheForest wrote:
If there are riffs left to write, let people write them. That said, if they're going to make it in a cliche, ironic and intentionally or unintentionally making a mockery of subgenres, then well, they're doing just that. The concept of attempting to emulate the sound of a scene 20-30 years ago does not necessarily cause any problems for me unless, of course, they do as previously stated.


I agree with Mr. BardInTheForest. Let these bands do what they want. 'Retro' thrash has brought thrash metal back on the map, I can't see how it is killing metal. Sure, it's not as great as old Kreator, Exodus, or Vio-Lence, but they've done more positive than negative.

I'd like to point out that no one calls retro thrash 'zombie thrash'..haha. A certain person knows what I'm talking about.
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Ritual_Suicide
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:51 am 
 

Originallity doesn't automatically equal progression. How many times have you heard someone refer to Dimmu Borgir as "modern" black metal? How about the retards who think Pantera reinvented thrash? The Sword has been called "modern" doom and Dragonforce has been labeled by some as "progressive" becasue of their use of video game sounds. Let us also take a moment to remember the passing of 80's Slayer in 1998.
Being retro isn't automatically a bad thing either. How many bands are praised for their consistency (Motorhead, Amon Amarth)? And of course the new bands won't have the energy of the old ones becasue the old ones were, ORIGINAL!!!
Besides, the thrash revival trend is better than the modern metalcore trend.

Thrash 'Till Death :headbang:

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Nahsil
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:57 am 
 

LokiGoddess wrote:
Nahsil wrote:
I've heard them both. Skeletonwitch are terrible in my opinion, neutral feelings regarding Toxic Holocaust (haven't heard a lot).


Hmmm.... well, if you have any actual interest in modern retro thrash then I would suggest checking out bands singed to Barbarian Wrath's sister label (?) Witches Brew. Witches Brew hosts a great deal of retro thrash acts (with the notable exception of Devil Lee Rot). I can't say much for the quality of their retro thrash, as I have only heard Sauron and Deathhammer. if you do look into Witches Brew, start with Sauron. I'm not much into retro thrash myself, but Sauron is a hell of a band.


I know Sauron, but I'd never mention them with these other bands being discussed, not exactly part of the "revivalist movement" and they're black/thrash anyway!
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BardInTheForest
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:16 am 
 

overkill666 wrote:
I'd like to point out that no one calls retro thrash 'zombie thrash'..haha. A certain person knows what I'm talking about.


You mean zombie-pizza-nacho-shark-skateboard-thrash? ;)

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circleofdestruction
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:22 am 
 

dnelson wrote:
I think OP has a point when he says that many of these retro bands are amounting to little more than empty mockeries of the bands they attempt to imitate.

That being said, there are some distinctly old-school bands that do things BETTER than their influences ever did. Funebrarum is case in point.

Yes, that point is valid, but so is the point of whoever just mentioned hastily-written myspace metal. There has been crap; there always will be crap. I maintain that it's best to ignore the crap and continue to hunt for good stuff.

Still, it's silly to say it's killing metal, and I think the whole retro label is kind of crap, I understand that some bands may like the sound of older bands and want to do something vaguely similar, and if they can write music that doesn't suck, more power to them. I don't think it's necessary to push boundaries and reinvent metal altogether to make an album that is worth listening to. If it were, we'd have to just throw away all the genres we know and love, because I guess it would be pointless to continue making music in these genres, which is ridiculous.

Good music is worth listening to, whatever the label put on it. Bad music sucks, also regardless of the genre label.
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VictimsOfDeception
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Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:00 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:29 am 
 

The_Boss wrote:
You can never have enough GOOD thrash or death metal, who gives a fuck if it's 'retro'.


Personally, I believe that it's more interesting to try to experiment with the genres more.

By experiment, I do not mean "load it with modern influences and cluster-fuck it into oblivion."

I simply mean that it is time to take what has been done and expand upon it.

It is outlandish to say that the genres cannot be expanded upon, for those of you, who cry out "But there is nothing new you can do with it!"
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LokiGoddess
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:55 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:53 am 
 

A band can be both retro themed and still remain unique. Just look at Tearstained. That band has a clearly oldschool-metal influenced sound (the most obvious influences being Mercyful Fate and Bathory on the first three albums), but they manage to create a sound that is unique in the realm of oldschool themed metal. There is nothing, new or old, that sounds exactly like Tearstained.
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Lyrici17
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Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:20 am
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:35 am 
 

Nahsil wrote:
kmiller wrote:
The_Boss wrote:
You can never have enough GOOD thrash or death metal, who gives a fuck if it's 'retro'.


This.

I don't care about the aesthetics or the 'trends' behind it. If it kicks ass, I'm all about it.


I agree with you both, but I've found that most of these retro bands suck, with a few great ones being the minority (Witchcraft, Hypnosia etc).

I've yet to hear a revivalist thrash album anywhere near as good as Pleasure to Kill or Agent Orange or Rust in Peace.

But I don't hate it on principle.



All of this.


If you like it, you like it. If you don't, you don't. Simple, but I think it applies.
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Zdan
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm
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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:24 am 
 

The problem with bands being progressive and diffrent from the pack often result in really embarrasing results. Opeth anyone? Of course if said bands keep the "metal" spirit and feel in their music and remain progressive than all is well and good. But - you gotta ask yourself this - how much progressive metal can get? It is a streamlined genre with rather narrow borders. Would you want ska-metal (I heard such an abomination mind you) for the sake of progression or would you go with another Toxic Holocaust? My answer is obvious...

Also - if bands want to revive the old sound - let them do this! Why the fuck not? If even one good band/album comes from the scene it is all good - people seem to ignore the fact that the original thrash scene did not compromise only of "Agent Oranges" and "Pleasures To Kill". Quick Change anyone? Faith Or Fear? etc. There is shit in every genere of music. Also I consider this retro-thrash trend to be an enemy of shitty metalcore - a notion which I totally accept and approve.

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Wet Pussy
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:13 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:41 am 
 

Calm down. The retro thing is just another trend/phase and it will pass. I think that the whole retro-thrash thing is a reaction against "false" metal like deathcore and metalcore, and is just another phase. Every decade has 1 or 2 retro movements and this will pass as well. Nu Metal didn't kill the metal, neither did all the -core shit. Metal's still alive and kicking.
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