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tkmikkelsen
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:01 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:39 pm 
 

I have never been into Black Metal, mostly because the whole church burning scene in the early 90s really put me off as being absolutely stupid, so because off these antics I never gave the music a chance.
Fast Forward 10 years and I stumble upon Dimmu Borgir and thought that they where actually really good. Then I soon discover they are not considered real Black Metal, but rather Symphonic Black Metal or Extreme Gothic Metal. They still sparked my interest in taking a listen to Black Metal acts. I figure out a good place to start would be Burzum, Mayhem and Darkthrone at least I knew these band names and knew that they where genre leaders back in the early days.

I sat down and started to listen to early Burzum and Mayhem and something funny happens, as I am listening to the songs, one of my friends, that is not into metal, but do like Hardcore a lot, walks in and he instantly asks me if it is a new hardcore record I am listening too. After being taken a little by surprise I came to think about it and started to break down the characteristics of early Black Metal and I came to the conclusion that Black Metal has a lot more in common with Hardcore than it does with Heavy Metal.

In early Black Metal the emphasis of the song is generally put on playing fast. Generally done by tremolo picking a note or power chord on the guitar and playing the drums as fast as possible. Also it has deliberately (at least I think so) bad production that gives it the feeling of something that was recorded in a basement or garage, the so called DIY value. Little value is put on melody or overall feeling in the music. It is all about being loud, fast and abrasive. All of these things are the exact same characteristics that Hardcore had in the early 80s. This is exactly what Black Flag, the Germs etc. tried to do back then and before them the original punks in the mid/late 70's.

Heavy Metal on the other hand have since the days of Black Sabbath not tried to be faster or louder than everyone else, but tried to create a heavy sound, something I would not say that early Black Metal bands have, they are fast, but not heavy. Also the whole New Wave of British Heavy Metal was a reaction to the punk scene, where kids where tired of bad production values and bands just trying to be faster and more abrasive than the last band. Therefor the bands put more emphasis on sounding heavy and on the overall feel of the music.

Therefore my question is now is Black Metal really Heavy Metal or should it really be called Black Hardcore??

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agentsteel666
(Short) Buspass Holder

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:45 pm
Posts: 456
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:42 pm 
 

I disagree with you. Black metal sounds pretty fucking metal to me. I never thought it sounded hardcore or whatever. It is metal.

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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:44 pm 
 

Absolute nonsense. I don't even know where to start... Just give me a moment.
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Quote:
So, Manes > Samael?
Quote:
yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"

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Reign_of_Praine
Metalhead

Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:09 am
Posts: 497
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:45 pm 
 

Yeah, it should be called Black Hardcore.
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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:53 pm 
 

Okay, first of all, black metal has nothing to do with playing stuff as fast as possible. The only division of black metal concerned about playing fast at all is "norsecore," which is nothing like the bands you mentioned and isn't really proper black metal anyway. Come on, Mozart's music has moments that are much faster than anytihng Burzum has ever done, not to mention death metal which is generally as fast as, if not faster, than black metal.

Secondly, it's not about being loud and abrasive, etc. Little value put on melody? You've got to be fucking kidding me. Tremolo picking, which you've mentioned yourself, is a technique that greatly emphasizes melody. And overall feeling of music... not sure what you exactly mean, but every single good black metal song/album puts emphasis on the whole and not on a specific section/riff/etc.

Also, while black metal shows general affinity toward raw (not bad) production, most of the good full-length albums don't sound garage-like.

Overall, you have absolutely no clue about black metal and you can't see beyond the most superficial aesthetic surface.
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Quote:
So, Manes > Samael?
Quote:
yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"


Last edited by Kruel on Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Hjorlejf
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:06 pm
Posts: 250
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:54 pm 
 

No emphasis on melody and "overall feeling in the music"???
Black metal is all about atmosphere, I don't know where you're getting this.
Also, it is an evolution of thrash metal, and sounds much more like thrash than it ever did to hardcore.

Also, "Heavy Metal on the other hand have since the days of Black Sabbath not tried to be faster or louder than everyone else"???
A TON of metal bands have been trying to do this, just look at the masses of brutal death metal bands out there!

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MMM88
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:10 am
Posts: 1006
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:04 pm 
 

IT IS a form of Heavy Metal and forget about whole true and real BM thing, just listen to what you enjoy.
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RageW
Marisa's Harlot

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:44 am
Posts: 839
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:04 pm 
 

There's a difference between raw, dirty and bad production. Look at Transilvanian Hunger; yeah, it sounds round as fuck, but you can hear every instrument easier than some modern albums with an incredibly clean, yet awful production where you can't even listen to the bass without putting your ears below the speakers.
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tkmikkelsen
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:01 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:05 pm 
 

Please enlighten me as to what Black Metal is not just trying to player faster and goes for mood instead of speed.
The albums I have been listening to in order to write this is:
Burzum - Burzum
Burzum - Det Som Engang Var
Mayhem - De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas
Darkthrone - A Blaze in the Northern Sky

As for Brutal Death Metal goes. It is heavily influenced by Grindcore that in turn is an outgrowth of Hardcore, so that has very heavy ties to Hardcore.

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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:07 pm 
 

tkmikkelsen wrote:
Please enlighten me as to what Black Metal is not just trying to player faster and goes for mood instead of speed.

Every single album you mentioned.

If your ears are too impaired by your love for folk/glam/metalcore, that's not our problem.
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Quote:
So, Manes > Samael?
Quote:
yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"


Last edited by Kruel on Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8754
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:08 pm 
 

None of those albums are really that fast.

I don't like Burzum but that Darkthrone album does have a rather good awareness of the mood it attempts to portray.

Anyway the bottom line is this; you either get it or you don't. If you do, great! If not, you can either keep trying or just accept that it's not something you believe in.

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Hjorlejf
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:06 pm
Posts: 250
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:10 pm 
 

tkmikkelsen wrote:
Please enlighten me as to what Black Metal is not just trying to player faster and goes for mood instead of speed.
The albums I have been listening to in order to write this is:
Burzum - Burzum
Burzum - Det Som Engang Var
Mayhem - De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas
Darkthrone - A Blaze in the Northern Sky

As for Brutal Death Metal goes. It is heavily influenced by Grindcore that in turn is an outgrowth of Hardcore, so that has very heavy ties to Hardcore.


I fail to follow you. Sure, those albums are somewhat fast, but there's definitely MUCH faster stuff in the scene, and I'm sure if they were trying to play as fast as they could, or faster than everyone else, they could put out a much better effort than that. As far as speed goes anyway.
Brutal death metal is NOT heavily influenced by grindcore.

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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 10181
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:14 pm 
 

Speed has never had anything specifically to do with black metal. In that sense, I think you are quite incorrect..but you're certainly right to make some comparisons to hardcore. YOu can even hear some punkish riffs on albums like Darkthrone's "Under a Funeral Moon", and to my mind, that'sa great thing. Is black metal heavy metal? Absolutely. However, Bathory owes a great deal to both Venom and motorhead, both of whom are very close to punk in so many aspects.. Hellhammer obviously is quite inspired by Discharge, and the Swiss band is instrumental in what became black metal, whether you consider Hellhammer a black metal band or not (I certainly do).

Edit: COme on, don't you hear punk in a a lot of NWOBHM bands? Can't you agree that thrash bands tried very hard to outspeed each other in the 80s, and that thrash and black metal are parallel evolutions?
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To the sorrowful cry
Of the wind in the dark.
Hush and hark, without murmur or sigh,
To shoon that tread the lost aeons:
To the sound that bids you to die.


Last edited by Abominatrix on Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Buried_Death
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:12 am
Posts: 1482
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:15 pm 
 

Black metal is all about the mood it sets around you and the feelings you get from the music it gives a very powerful atmosphere. The raw production works well with the feeling black metal is trying to get across and just because its under producted does not mean the music is not as good because the rawness in some black metal releases sets a really evil atmosphere what works. And how can you be like black metal has no meaning just read some of the lyrics and how complex they can be and how much meaning they have to them.
Just because you can't understand black metal does not mean other people can't get something out of it. Because you really have no idea about what your going on about.
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doom_monger
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:08 pm
Posts: 451
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:17 pm 
 

tkmikkelsen wrote:
Please enlighten me as to what Black Metal is not just trying to player faster and goes for mood instead of speed.
The albums I have been listening to in order to write this is:
Burzum - Burzum
Burzum - Det Som Engang Var
Mayhem - De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas
Darkthrone - A Blaze in the Northern Sky

As for Brutal Death Metal goes. It is heavily influenced by Grindcore that in turn is an outgrowth of Hardcore, so that has very heavy ties to Hardcore.


Listen to Hvis Lyset Tar Oss and Filosofem by Burzum, and Deathcrush by Mayhem.

Black Metal was influenced by hardcore (this is certainly true of Darkthrone). Whether other bands were directly influenced by hardcore I can't say, but they were still influenced by thrash which was influenced by punk. Hardcore does not have a monopoly on the "DIY ethic."

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tkmikkelsen
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:01 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:31 pm 
 

Buried_Death wrote:
Black metal is all about the mood it sets around you and the feelings you get from the music it gives a very powerful atmosphere. The raw production works well with the feeling black metal is trying to get across and just because its under producted does not mean the music is not as good because the rawness in some black metal releases sets a really evil atmosphere what works. And how can you be like black metal has no meaning just read some of the lyrics and how complex they can be and how much meaning they have to them.
Just because you can't understand black metal does not mean other people can't get something out of it. Because you really have no idea about what your going on about.


You are reading a lot into what I wrote, maybe even too much. I never said that the music was not good, just that the production is not of high value or as other have put it, it is raw. I never stated that it was bad music.
Also I never said anything about the lyrical content of Black Metal. I am sure that a lot of it is interesting. I was meaning the mood/feeling of the music not the lyrics.

And all the more power to those that like Black Metal and gets something out of it. I never said that I think it should be sent to the moon, because I don't. What you or others listen to is thankfully all up to your own mind. My question was merely does Black Metal have more in common with Hardcore than Heavy Metal.

To some of the previous replies. I do like the Darkthrone album the best and have given it a couple of more spinds, just for the heck of it. I will agree that it has more of mood to it than Burzum or Mayhem have.

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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:35 pm 
 

Only your last sentence was a question. The other part is what is really laughable.
_________________
Quote:
So, Manes > Samael?
Quote:
yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"

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tkmikkelsen
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:01 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:39 pm 
 

Kruel wrote:
Only your last sentence was a question. The other part is what is really laughable.


Glad I gave you a laugh. It is so healthy to laugh, so now I am responsible for you living a few minutes longer. You should be in eternal gratitude towards me. ;-)

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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:40 pm 
 

Thank you very much.
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Quote:
So, Manes > Samael?
Quote:
yeah, it's ironic, they are so pretentious, yet one can say that at least they don't pretend. They don't release some techno-rap-whatever album and say "on this record we tried to sound like in our old days"

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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 10181
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:42 pm 
 

tkmikkelsen wrote:
Please enlighten me as to what Black Metal is not just trying to player faster and goes for mood instead of speed.

Hey, are you drunk? I can't figure out what you are asking. To me, though, none of these albums are particularly fast, even compared to plenty of thrash. Certainly that Darkthrone record is full of tempo changes and has just as many creeping, crawling bits as it does thrash tempos, and very few blastbeats.
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Hush! and hark
To the sorrowful cry
Of the wind in the dark.
Hush and hark, without murmur or sigh,
To shoon that tread the lost aeons:
To the sound that bids you to die.

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Hjorlejf
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:06 pm
Posts: 250
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:43 pm 
 

tkmikkelsen wrote:
You are reading a lot into what I wrote, maybe even too much. I never said that the music was not good, just that the production is not of high value or as other have put it, it is raw. I never stated that it was bad music.
Also I never said anything about the lyrical content of Black Metal. I am sure that a lot of it is interesting. I was meaning the mood/feeling of the music not the lyrics.

And all the more power to those that like Black Metal and gets something out of it. I never said that I think it should be sent to the moon, because I don't. What you or others listen to is thankfully all up to your own mind. My question was merely does Black Metal have more in common with Hardcore than Heavy Metal.

To some of the previous replies. I do like the Darkthrone album the best and have given it a couple of more spinds, just for the heck of it. I will agree that it has more of mood to it than Burzum or Mayhem have.


You make it sound as though you're being persecuted, when in reality people here are merely pointing out that you clearly don't have a lot of knowledge on what you're writing about. We HAVE been responding to the question of black metal being more similar to hardcore vs. heavy metal, but to most it's not a fully educated question; it clearly shares more in common with heavy metal.

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tkmikkelsen
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:01 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:48 pm 
 

Hjorlejf wrote:
tkmikkelsen wrote:
You are reading a lot into what I wrote, maybe even too much. I never said that the music was not good, just that the production is not of high value or as other have put it, it is raw. I never stated that it was bad music.
Also I never said anything about the lyrical content of Black Metal. I am sure that a lot of it is interesting. I was meaning the mood/feeling of the music not the lyrics.

And all the more power to those that like Black Metal and gets something out of it. I never said that I think it should be sent to the moon, because I don't. What you or others listen to is thankfully all up to your own mind. My question was merely does Black Metal have more in common with Hardcore than Heavy Metal.

To some of the previous replies. I do like the Darkthrone album the best and have given it a couple of more spinds, just for the heck of it. I will agree that it has more of mood to it than Burzum or Mayhem have.


You make it sound as though you're being persecuted, when in reality people here are merely pointing out that you clearly don't have a lot of knowledge on what you're writing about. We HAVE been responding to the question of black metal being more similar to hardcore vs. heavy metal, but to most it's not a fully educated question; it clearly shares more in common with heavy metal.


I like the answers that I have gotten. This was just a response to a guy (or girl) that kinda put words in my mouth.
I am not feeling like I am being prosecuted it takes a little more than posts on a message board to make me feel like that. :-)

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VictimsOfDeception
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 1481
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:49 pm 
 

He is either arguing for the sake of it, or he is a lost cause. Either way...

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Nolan_B
In League With Nolan

Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 4365
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:56 pm 
 

This is the most idiotic claim ever. Black metal does have a very loose influence from hardcore punk, but in no way is it closer to hardcore than metal. Your friend is probably just confused by the high pitched vocals.

And black metal is not all the same. Listen to Bathory's debut, Venom's Welcome to Hell, Sodom's Obsessed By Cruelty, Sarcofago's INRI, Mayhem's Deathcrush, Blasphemy's Blood Upon the Altar, Darkthrone's Panzerfaust, the LLN releases, Burzum, anything, it's all different. Some have more hardcore influences than others.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:40 pm 
 

I am just curious which album your friend thought sounded like hardcore. Because, like, Gorilla Biscuits is the last comparison that comes to mind when I heard Burzum.

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Avaddons_blood
Veteran

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:23 am
Posts: 2677
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:42 pm 
 

No,, It's blackness music!

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