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hmtlchriscon88
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:57 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:09 pm 
 

what makes progressive metal different from all the other metal genres. Ive allways though its the way the play. is it because they play like death metal but sing like other heavy metal band.

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RaveNStorM
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:10 pm 
 

Because Progressive Metal is gay.

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hmtlchriscon88
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:12 pm 
 

No it's not. what metal genre do you like?

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:16 pm 
 

Progressive Metal SHOULD be any sort of metal that progresses from its genre conventions and creates something new, but these days it seems to be defined as metal with complex arrangements and spacey keyboards and lyrics about things nobody understands. Well, either that, or it's mis-labeled upon shitty bands like Evergrey or Biomechanical who people for some reason think are "intelligent" or something of the sort.
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hmtlchriscon88
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:22 pm 
 

what about bands like dream theater or sympony x? they sound pretty sophisticated in the way they play.

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:22 pm 
 

There's two different things that the label applies to. The most common is the Pagan's Mind, Stride, Space Odyssey, Dream Theater brand of music. This is because of the large similarities that these bands share with late 70's and early 80's prog rock.

The other usage of the term applies to bands that manage to stay within the confines of an existing genre and simultaneously expand upon it, hence "progression".

Hope that clears it up for you.

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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1895
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:58 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
There's two different things that the label applies to. The most common is the Pagan's Mind, Stride, Space Odyssey, Dream Theater brand of music. This is because of the large similarities that these bands share with late 70's and early 80's prog rock.

The other usage of the term applies to bands that manage to stay within the confines of an existing genre and simultaneously expand upon it, hence "progression".

Hope that clears it up for you.

So what would be the difference between prog and avant-garde then?

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UnserHeiligeTod
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Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:45 pm
Posts: 1057
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:05 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
lyrics about things nobody understands.

You seem to have a problem with this. Must all lyrics be about having fun and rocking out and being happy and cheery to you?
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:27 pm 
 

UnserHeiligeTod wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
lyrics about things nobody understands.

You seem to have a problem with this. Must all lyrics be about having fun and rocking out and being happy and cheery to you?


Nah, I was merely commenting on the fact that Prog has mainly come to reflect a genre of music that defines itself on a specific template (the Dream Theater one of more introspective, personal lyrics, along with lots of time changes and keys inter playing with the riffs) - rather than actually progressing anymore. Not all Prog is like this, and like rexxz said, it's a continuation of the 70s/80s Prog Rock sound, but you get my point. And I still like bands like this anyway.

I don't even have a problem with lyrics that don't make sense to anyone - if they are well written, then they're fine. Have I ever said/implied anything to the contrary?
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rexxz
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Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:35 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
rexxz wrote:
There's two different things that the label applies to. The most common is the Pagan's Mind, Stride, Space Odyssey, Dream Theater brand of music. This is because of the large similarities that these bands share with late 70's and early 80's prog rock.

The other usage of the term applies to bands that manage to stay within the confines of an existing genre and simultaneously expand upon it, hence "progression".

Hope that clears it up for you.

So what would be the difference between prog and avant-garde then?


Avant-garde is a retrospective term typically applied to bands that have done somthing significantly influential and novel in music. Hellhammer, Elvis Presley and James Brown could be all considered avant-garde. It's not a style specific thing. The differentiation between something that is merely progressing a genre and something that is avant garde is that the latter will be doing something almost completely new.

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UnserHeiligeTod
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Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:45 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:47 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I don't even have a problem with lyrics that don't make sense to anyone - if they are well written, then they're fine. Have I ever said/implied anything to the contrary?

Well, yes. I recall reading your comments about this issue with some bands you didn't like (don't remember exactly which, but I'm sure they were new age modern metal with unorthodox lyrics as part of their presentation).
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Viral
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1895
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:09 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
Viral wrote:
rexxz wrote:
There's two different things that the label applies to. The most common is the Pagan's Mind, Stride, Space Odyssey, Dream Theater brand of music. This is because of the large similarities that these bands share with late 70's and early 80's prog rock.

The other usage of the term applies to bands that manage to stay within the confines of an existing genre and simultaneously expand upon it, hence "progression".

Hope that clears it up for you.

So what would be the difference between prog and avant-garde then?


Avant-garde is a retrospective term typically applied to bands that have done somthing significantly influential and novel in music. Hellhammer, Elvis Presley and James Brown could be all considered avant-garde. It's not a style specific thing. The differentiation between something that is merely progressing a genre and something that is avant garde is that the latter will be doing something almost completely new.

I was always under the impression that avant-garde meant experimental.

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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:22 pm 
 

Literally, it means "vanguard."

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 19089
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:25 pm 
 

UnserHeiligeTod wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
I don't even have a problem with lyrics that don't make sense to anyone - if they are well written, then they're fine. Have I ever said/implied anything to the contrary?

Well, yes. I recall reading your comments about this issue with some bands you didn't like (don't remember exactly which, but I'm sure they were new age modern metal with unorthodox lyrics as part of their presentation).

Probably they were bands whose lyrics involved sorry-assed self-pitious themes like Evergrey or some shit. I don't really get pissed off at too many bands' lyrics...
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Last edited by Empyreal on Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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juicebitch
Juice Bitch

Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:57 am
Posts: 1565
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:51 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
rexxz wrote:
Viral wrote:
rexxz wrote:
There's two different things that the label applies to. The most common is the Pagan's Mind, Stride, Space Odyssey, Dream Theater brand of music. This is because of the large similarities that these bands share with late 70's and early 80's prog rock.

The other usage of the term applies to bands that manage to stay within the confines of an existing genre and simultaneously expand upon it, hence "progression".

Hope that clears it up for you.

So what would be the difference between prog and avant-garde then?


Avant-garde is a retrospective term typically applied to bands that have done somthing significantly influential and novel in music. Hellhammer, Elvis Presley and James Brown could be all considered avant-garde. It's not a style specific thing. The differentiation between something that is merely progressing a genre and something that is avant garde is that the latter will be doing something almost completely new.

I was always under the impression that avant-garde meant experimental.


What may be experimental today will not be regarded as experimental tomorrow. It is a backwards looking term.
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steady666
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:21 am
Posts: 407
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:05 pm 
 

I don't like it how the progressive metal label is handed out to bands that don't really deserve it. I mean for example bands like Pagan's Mind from what I have heard don't do anything complex (or anything that interesting for that matter) at all in any of their songs. In my eyes (ears?) there are two types of progressive metal. Those who incorporate many different musical styles (eg: Opeth, Dream Theater) and those who have technical riffs based on numerous key signature and time changes (Spiral Architect, Zero Hour). Sure, there's plenty of bands that fit in between this and blend both. I believe this is true progressive metal. Not this influx of bands who have mid to high pitch vocals placed over chugga-chugga riffs.

But then again, I guess it's really hard to group these bands together so it's just easy for people to slap on the 'prog' label... :ugh:

Edit: I just realized I ignore what was originally asked. I do that frequently... Anyway OP should check out more Progressive Metal bands if he wants to know the difference. Upon hearing certain bands it will be made clear. I think that would be the easiest way...
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WereHuman
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:15 pm
Posts: 32
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:14 am 
 

I think the way that people call any complex time signature into prog is a mistake. Progressive music, as already mentioned, has to do with progression, creating atmospheres, well elaborated music. If you take something from the called 5 biggest progressive bands (Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis and - i cant remember), you'll see what this atmospheres are about.
I guess Dream Theater (were they really the 'creators' of progmetal?) has captured the way of progress music and put in the metal element.

But then some bands appeared as progmetal having no progressive influence but time signatures... and I dont get it.

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Expedience
Veteran

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:22 am
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:03 pm 
 

Mightn't we reconcile the conflict by admitting that the concept of "progress" in music is nonsense? Progressive music has nothing to do with progression. You can't define a genre by such an abstract and personal criterion. How pretentious would a band have to be to say they are progressing further than music that came before them?

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Oflick
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 212
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:33 am 
 

WereHuman wrote:
If you take something from the called 5 biggest progressive bands (Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis and - i cant remember)


Rush?

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saintinhell
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:19 am
Posts: 1426
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:13 am 
 

Oflick wrote:
WereHuman wrote:
If you take something from the called 5 biggest progressive bands (Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis and - i cant remember)


Rush?


More likely it's EL&P or Jethro Tull.

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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 10221
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:36 am 
 

WereHuman wrote:
I think the way that people call any complex time signature into prog is a mistake. Progressive music, as already mentioned, has to do with progression, creating atmospheres, well elaborated music. If you take something from the called 5 biggest progressive bands (Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis and - i cant remember), you'll see what this atmospheres are about.
I guess Dream Theater (were they really the 'creators' of progmetal?) has captured the way of progress music and put in the metal element.

But then some bands appeared as progmetal having no progressive influence but time signatures... and I dont get it.


Dream Theater may have inspired a plethora of clones and immitators, but they did not invent progressive metal, and there were plenty of metal bands playing with really progressive ideas before DT came onto the scene.
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spoonhead
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:44 am 
 

Progressive is an attribute, not a genre. Any kind of music can be progressive and it has no specific sound. It's all about how the songs are written and arranged. Progressive is a more story-like way of putting a song together instead of repeating riffs, verse-chorus-verse-chorus etc.

That's my take on it at least.

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WereHuman
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:15 pm
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Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:55 pm 
 

saintinhell wrote:
Oflick wrote:
WereHuman wrote:
If you take something from the called 5 biggest progressive bands (Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis and - i cant remember)


Rush?


More likely it's EL&P or Jethro Tull.

That's it! EL&P!

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WereHuman
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:15 pm
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Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:23 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
Dream Theater may have inspired a plethora of clones and immitators, but they did not invent progressive metal, and there were plenty of metal bands playing with really progressive ideas before DT came onto the scene.

Such as?

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enslaved__
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:35 am
Posts: 16
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:15 pm 
 

Queensryche and Fates Warning are the biggest examples.On the other hand,there were many Thrash Metal bands,playing in progressive style,which also inspired Dream Theater.Like Watchtower,Toxik,and And Justice For All-era Metallica...

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Dolf9271986
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:52 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:22 pm 
 

spoonhead wrote:
Progressive is an attribute, not a genre. Any kind of music can be progressive and it has no specific sound. It's all about how the songs are written and arranged. Progressive is a more story-like way of putting a song together instead of repeating riffs, verse-chorus-verse-chorus etc.

That's my take on it at least.



That's exactly my opinion as well.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:23 pm 
 

You can be progressive within the verse/chorus format, too, though, but yes, otherwise I would agree also. Prog Metal has just been misconstrued to describe a Dream Theater-esque sound.
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saintinhell
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:54 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
You can be progressive within the verse/chorus format, too, though, but yes, otherwise I would agree also. Prog Metal has just been misconstrued to describe a Dream Theater-esque sound.


I don't know, I think breaking out of the verse-chorus cycle is the most essential attribute of prog. Unfortunately, a lot of people think it's just about music with odd time signatures. While prog bands do have the tendency to use odd time signatures, eschewing the verse-chorus cycle is the most important aspect of prog. Which doesn't again mean that every song by every prog band will adhere to this rule though because then as now, the better known bands tried/try to make something more accessible and easier to absorb.

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:25 pm 
 

saintinhell wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
You can be progressive within the verse/chorus format, too, though, but yes, otherwise I would agree also. Prog Metal has just been misconstrued to describe a Dream Theater-esque sound.


I don't know, I think breaking out of the verse-chorus cycle is the most essential attribute of prog. Unfortunately, a lot of people think it's just about music with odd time signatures. While prog bands do have the tendency to use odd time signatures, eschewing the verse-chorus cycle is the most important aspect of prog. Which doesn't again mean that every song by every prog band will adhere to this rule though because then as now, the better known bands tried/try to make something more accessible and easier to absorb.

Yeah, you're right. I would still argue that a band can create something new and inventive within the standard verse/chorus/verse formula, though.
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Dechripastocide
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:16 am
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:34 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I would still argue that a band can create something new and inventive within the standard verse/chorus/verse formula, though.

But where did Black Sabbath or Deep Purple fit into that? They both certainly made more album oriented stuff when most of their peers started jumping on the punk/disco bandwagon. I'm basically saying that heavy metal has, and always will have, a prog rock slant to its foundation.

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Chavaluria
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 3:36 pm
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Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:27 am 
 

RaveNStorM wrote:
Because Progressive Metal is gay.


¬¬
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