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StArMaStEr
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:51 am
Posts: 8
Location: El Salvador
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:56 am 
 

What is the most accurate definition of this black metal subgenre? I have not been able to find information about this, and not sure about what it is, exactly. I heart Deathspell Omega is an orthodox black metal band, so I guess It basically has "theistic" satanic lyrics, but I want to be sure. What are other bands considered to be this?

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Jarnroth
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Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:09 am
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:06 am 
 

Theistic, spiritualistic, occultism... All with a satanical approach, that's the themetical approach of "Orthodox" black metal.
When it come to style musically, it's mostly traditional classic black metal with a few new spices which don't fuck the music up to some black metal hybrid.
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EntilZha
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Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:22 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:09 am 
 

It's a misnomer because the bands that term is ascribed to have nothing to do with black metal at all. Just a bunch of posers who need to be locked up in a church (along with their worthless fans) before it's set on fire.
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Last edited by EntilZha on Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Jarnroth
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Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:09 am
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:20 am 
 

THE band?
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jesusbathe
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:58 pm
Posts: 160
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:25 am 
 

EntilZha wrote:
It's a misnomer because the band that term is ascribed to have nothing to do with black metal at all. Just a bunch of posers who need to be locked up in a church (along with their worthless fans) before it's set on fire.


Someone needs to do their research before they make such a statement...unless by THE band you meant all the bands...but then that wouldn't make sense either.
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EntilZha
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:35 am 
 

Sorry, typo. Was supposed to be "bands".
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matras
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am
Posts: 870
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:44 am 
 

EntilZha wrote:
It's a misnomer because the bands that term is ascribed to have nothing to do with black metal at all. Just a bunch of posers who need to be locked up in a church (along with their worthless fans) before it's set on fire.


Nothing? Nothing to do with Black Metal at all? How's so? Care to elaborate? And what makes the fans who likes "the bands" worthless?
Just curious.

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MaDTransilvanian
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:46 am 
 

The way I see it Orthodox Black Metal is ''normal'' black metal, pure and unaltered. While it may apply to newer bands which copy the older bands' material, a good example of an Orthodox Black Metal band, from an objective standpoint, would be Gorgoroth. They're the archetype of black metal, especially on the first three albums.

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Cruciphage
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:41 am
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:35 am 
 

"Orthodox" black metal refers to bands who take Satanism seriously and treat the devil as an actual deity to be revered and worshipped. Musically, they can be as diverse as black metal has always been.

The absurd thing is that this kind of Satanism is garbage, because its foundation is the medieval, Christian concept of the devil. It necessitates the existence and power of the Christian deity which essentially makes it an offshoot of Christianity, a religion which itself is mostly phony.

This discussion has already been done a few times, by the way.

MaDTransilvanian wrote:
a good example of an Orthodox Black Metal band, from an objective standpoint, would be Gorgoroth. They're the archetype of black metal, especially on the first three albums.

Um...well...uh...

No.

We're talking serious worship of Satan. I can't account for the majority of band members, but Gaahl is not an orthodox Satanist.
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christianmetalsite
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:31 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:30 pm 
 

tell me the point
of satanic metal
or being satanic in the first place

you can be brootal without worshiping the devil

< <

noobs

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overkill666
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:43 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:46 pm 
 

If you came here to troll for god, go away. Your post has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
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Manic616
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:01 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:49 pm 
 

overkill666 wrote:
If you came here to troll for god, go away. Your post has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Well he does raise the point of 'why must black metal be seen as satanic?' but as he comes from a christian view point, it seems rather hyocritical.

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overkill666
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:43 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:51 pm 
 

Manic616 wrote:
overkill666 wrote:
If you came here to troll for god, go away. Your post has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Well he does raise the point of 'why must black metal be seen as satanic?' but as he comes from a christian view point, it seems rather hyocritical.


Exactly. It would've been to the point if he somehow brought the two points together or something with a lot of explanation..but his post = troll in the way he put it.

Haha.
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oneyoudontknow
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 6:25 pm
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:55 pm 
 

and therefore should his posts (christianmetalsite) be ignored ...

Cruciphage has pointed out the issue very well.
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christianmetalsite
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Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:31 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:56 pm 
 

no

all im saying is that making a black metal band satanic does not make it more brootal

but some people think it is cuz they think the pentegram and inverted crosses are cool and whatnot

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cfvk
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:00 pm
Posts: 115
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:46 pm 
 

Cruciphage wrote:
"Orthodox" black metal refers to bands who take Satanism seriously and treat the devil as an actual deity to be revered and worshipped. Musically, they can be as diverse as black metal has always been.

The absurd thing is that this kind of Satanism is garbage, because its foundation is the medieval, Christian concept of the devil. It necessitates the existence and power of the Christian deity which essentially makes it an offshoot of Christianity, a religion which itself is mostly phony.



i like this definition

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Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
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Location: Russia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:47 pm 
 

Orlok disapproves of this thread (which was done to death several times, by the way).
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Woolie_Wool
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:56 pm
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Location: Far beyond the prophecy of tyrant guardians
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:57 pm 
 

Cruciphage wrote:
"Orthodox" black metal refers to bands who take Satanism seriously and treat the devil as an actual deity to be revered and worshipped. Musically, they can be as diverse as black metal has always been.

The absurd thing is that this kind of Satanism is garbage, because its foundation is the medieval, Christian concept of the devil. It necessitates the existence and power of the Christian deity which essentially makes it an offshoot of Christianity, a religion which itself is mostly phony.

This discussion has already been done a few times, by the way.


Bands like Deathspell Omega almost remind me of Roman Catholicism with the cross turned upside down.
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Manic616
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:01 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:59 pm 
 

Woolie_Wool wrote:
Bands like Deathspell Omega almost remind me of Roman Catholicism with the cross turned upside down.

That would still be Roman Catholicism, the inverted cross is the cross of St. Paul or St. Peter, I cant remember which.

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Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:09 pm 
 

The latter. ;)
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redeemerofchaos
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:14 pm
Posts: 42
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:07 pm 
 

Cruciphage wrote:
"Orthodox" black metal refers to bands who take Satanism seriously and treat the devil as an actual deity to be revered and worshipped. Musically, they can be as diverse as black metal has always been.

The absurd thing is that this kind of Satanism is garbage, because its foundation is the medieval, Christian concept of the devil. It necessitates the existence and power of the Christian deity which essentially makes it an offshoot of Christianity, a religion which itself is mostly phony.


It's an occult/philosophical approach, not a devil-whorshipping madman's. People just assume they are christian devil-worshippers because some posers keep telling them they are real satanists.

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MaDTransilvanian
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:56 pm
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Location: Romania
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:18 pm 
 

Cruciphage wrote:

MaDTransilvanian wrote:
a good example of an Orthodox Black Metal band, from an objective standpoint, would be Gorgoroth. They're the archetype of black metal, especially on the first three albums.

Um...well...uh...

No.

We're talking serious worship of Satan. I can't account for the majority of band members, but Gaahl is not an orthodox Satanist.


First of all, fuck Gaahl because Gaahl has nothing to do with the classic Gorgoroth which I'm taking about. It's all about Infernus, he founded the band, he's the main songwriter and he's their brain behind the ideology, which is without a shred of a doubt about Satanism and nothing else (according to him).

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Kruel
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:27 pm 
 

Infernus is most likely not a theistic Satanist.

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MaDTransilvanian
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:56 pm
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Location: Romania
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:29 pm 
 

Well he called himself a Satanist and claimed that Gorgoroth was founded as a way to propagate Satanism, although I'm not sure of his beliefs beyond that, if he takes it seriously or not. Either way it doesn't really matter since he makes quality music, goofball ideology or not.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:32 pm 
 

"Satanism" doesn't necessarily refer to its theistic version.

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ThrashingMad
Skanky

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:47 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:47 pm 
 

Kruel wrote:
Infernus is most likely not a theistic Satanist.


How would you know that?

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EntilZha
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Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 2222
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:21 pm 
 

ThrashingMad wrote:
Kruel wrote:
Infernus is most likely not a theistic Satanist.


How would you know that?

Infernus has a brain.
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ThrashingMad
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Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:47 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:29 pm 
 

EntilZha wrote:
ThrashingMad wrote:
Kruel wrote:
Infernus is most likely not a theistic Satanist.


How would you know that?

Infernus has a brain.


I certainly hope that he isn't, as I love his music, but does anyone have some evidence either way.

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Kruel
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:36 pm 
 

Actually, interviews I've just been reading suggest that he is theistic (though I wouldn't say it's conclusive). But droneriot actually talked to him, so...

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Cruciphage
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:41 am
Posts: 589
Location: Standing right behind you
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:44 pm 
 

MaDTransilvanian wrote:
First of all, fuck Gaahl because Gaahl has nothing to do with the classic Gorgoroth which I'm taking about. It's all about Infernus, he founded the band, he's the main songwriter and he's their brain behind the ideology, which is without a shred of a doubt about Satanism and nothing else (according to him).

This is what you said:
MaDTransilvanian wrote:
They're the archetype of black metal, especially on the first three albums.

While you did favor the original work, you were still talking about Gorgoroth on the whole.

There's a sizeable difference between someone who writes songs about Satanism and someone who is actually a Satanist. The term "orthodox black metal" was created in reference to newer bands with members who claim to be serious about practicing devil worship.

redeemerofchaos wrote:
It's an occult/philosophical approach, not a devil-whorshipping madman's. People just assume they are christian devil-worshippers because some posers keep telling them they are real satanists.

I seem to have missed the part where I said something about madmen. Please point me to it. Acknowledging and worshipping the Christian boogeyman is, however, a pretty bizarre way to bring down Christianity.

You're right about the occult and philosophical thing, though. I hesitate to use the term "gnostic," but the lyrics and symbolism of the orthodox bands are on a much higher level than those of, for example, Dark Funeral.

You'll have to clarify your second sentence. Do posers keep telling the bands that the bands are real Satanists? Or do the posers keep telling the bands that the posers are real Satanists? Or is it the people who the posers are talking to?
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praetor
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:07 am
Posts: 63
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:56 pm 
 

Cruciphage wrote:

redeemerofchaos wrote:
It's an occult/philosophical approach, not a devil-whorshipping madman's. People just assume they are christian devil-worshippers because some posers keep telling them they are real satanists.

I seem to have missed the part where I said something about madmen. Please point me to it. Acknowledging and worshipping the Christian boogeyman is, however, a pretty bizarre way to bring down Christianity.


Well, this here is quite a common misconception (at least when it comes to the more prominent bands in this "sub-genre"). For one, the devil they worship is not based solely on the Christian boogeyman. Rather, it represents the antagonist of the "good gods" ("good" here being a relative term :)) in various religions (there seems to be numerous references in the lyrics of such bands), most prominently jewish (the kabbalah, more often than not) and gnosticism. And that leads us to the second point. I highly doubt their "primary goal" is to bring down Christianity (quite the contrary, I don't think they really care about those sheep :P) but, more among the lines of gnosticims, to enlighten the individual, to help him discover "the truth" trough whatever means necessary. Or something like that... :)

I'm not really into this kind of stuff. This are just some thoughts I "picked up" on my endless journeys through the internets (from people more knowledgable on the subjet than I am :)). At the very least it doesn't soud as stupid and hypocritical as ignorant people make it out to be.

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ogmetal
Veteran of the Psychic Wars

Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:22 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:59 pm 
 

christianmetalsite wrote:
no

all im saying is that making a black metal band satanic does not make it more brootal

but some people think it is cuz they think the pentegram and inverted crosses are cool and whatnot


All I'm saying is keep this thread on topic. No one talked about this style of metal being "brutal" or making claims even close to the sort. If you can't usefully contribute to the thread, don't post.
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genocida
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:48 am
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Location: Indonesia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:02 pm 
 

So, is it means Orthodox Satanism and Theistic Satanism is similar which is a "real" Satan worshiper?

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KingVold
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:05 am
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:07 pm 
 

Manic616 wrote:
overkill666 wrote:
If you came here to troll for god, go away. Your post has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Well he does raise the point of 'why must black metal be seen as satanic?' but as he comes from a christian view point, it seems rather hyocritical.

Errr... why is that hypocritical?
Black Metal is seen as satanic becasue is is satanic, or at least pretends to be. I know not specifically EVERY Black Metal band is psuedosatanic (Or really satanic? Not many of those) but the vast majority of them are.

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KingVold
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:05 am
Posts: 1082
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:09 pm 
 

EntilZha wrote:
ThrashingMad wrote:
Kruel wrote:
Infernus is most likely not a theistic Satanist.


How would you know that?

Infernus has a brain.

So? If Einstein could believe in a god, infernus can beleive in Satan.

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KingVold
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:05 am
Posts: 1082
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:12 pm 
 

Besides, doesnt most BM have Theistic Satanic lyrics? I havent heard any traditional satanistic lyrics (Except Belphegor...). its all ordinary "Hail Satan, Enemy of God, Blasphemy!" crap. No "Hail Satan, Flesh Incarnate" crap.

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marktheviktor
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:41 am
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:18 pm 
 

The reason Judas Iscariot is one of my Top Five black metal bands of choice is because of how orthodoxical their material is. The grassroots sound of their brand of bm is very stark and conservative within the genres own parameters. I like structure as it applies to rigidity and conforming to what good old second wave was all about from 1987-1995.

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redeemerofchaos
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:14 pm
Posts: 42
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:12 am 
 

JUST BECAUSE A BAND WORSHIPS SATAN DOESN'T MAKE THEM ORTHODOX!

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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:24 am 
 

KingVold wrote:
EntilZha wrote:
ThrashingMad wrote:
Kruel wrote:
Infernus is most likely not a theistic Satanist.


How would you know that?

Infernus has a brain.

So? If Einstein could believe in a god, infernus can beleive in Satan.

The thing is, Einstein wasn't theistic.

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Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4659
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:03 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
KingVold wrote:
EntilZha wrote:
ThrashingMad wrote:
Kruel wrote:
Infernus is most likely not a theistic Satanist.


How would you know that?

Infernus has a brain.

So? If Einstein could believe in a god, infernus can beleive in Satan.

The thing is, Einstein wasn't theistic.

And Infernus is no Jew.
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