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Lyrici17
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:20 am
Posts: 1322
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:48 am 
 

Alright, it's time to do another survey; this time it's for grind bands.


The Rules (barrowed with permission from lastdodobird):

1. Make your individual Top 15 "Best Grind Albums" list and PM THE ORDERED/RANKED LIST TO ME instead of posting them on this thread. Lists will be accepted for five (5) days starting from when this thread is created.

(I will not be providing updates, as not to influence voting. The final list will be posted after all the lists have been tallied. At the end of voting period, points per album will be tallied, and the Top Grind Albums list will be posted. I will also release all the individual votes which were cast/PM'ed to me.

The reason why PM'ing the lists to me are preferred is because we all know how people like to jump on a bandwagon when they see a particular album have more votes or less votes than they intend, so PM'ing me the list will help eliminate that)

2. The points assigned to each rank are as follows:

(the rationale for this point system is so that there's an appropriate distance/number of points separating the higher-rated tracks and lower-rated tracks. Think of it making your #1 vote really feel like #1 and so on and so forth...)

1 - 32
2 - 29
3 - 26
4 - 23
5 - 20
6 - 18
7 - 16
8 - 14
9 - 12
10 - 10
11 - 9
12 - 8
13 - 7
14 - 6
15 - 5

3. IMPORTANT: You are only allowed to include two albums MAXIMUM per artist on your individual lists. However, the final Top 50 list is not restricted to two albums per artist.

4. As much as possible, please keep the items in your list in this format: <Artist> - <Album> and do try to spell properly.

5. THE ONLY REQUIREMENT FOR ALBUM ELIGABILITY IS THAT THE ARTIST CAN BE FOUND WITHIN THE ARCHIVES!!! Additionally, [please] vote only if you feel that you are a fan of the grind genre enough to be capable of submitting a credible list.

6. Members with a join date after the thread has started may not vote.

7. Once you have submitted your list, you may not alter it anymore, so think about it well before submitting.

8. On the final list, those albums with only one vote will be discarded.

Please follow these rules. We want to have the most comprehensive list possible, and a stupid mistake here and there only hurts the overall quality of the list.

OK, grind away...!
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Last edited by Lyrici17 on Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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strongbad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 146
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:15 am 
 

wahey someone had the initiative to do what I wanted to do here!

alright lets do this thing
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morbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:36 am
Posts: 741
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:25 am 
 

Lyrici17 wrote:
5. The only requirement for album eligibility is that the artist can be found within the archives.


One can't talk grind without mentioning Fear Of God (Swiss) yet they are not on M.A.
I'll PM you my list, but F.O.G. will be on it

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Unearthly
Spectre of Wrath

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:10 pm
Posts: 635
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:28 am 
 

You should put rule 5 in bold and capital letters, because at least one person isn't gonna bother reading much of this.

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Lyrici17
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:20 am
Posts: 1322
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:32 am 
 

Unearthly wrote:
You should put rule 5 in bold and capital letters, because at least one person isn't gonna bother reading much of this.


A good suggestion - fixed....
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strongbad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 146
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:57 am 
 

Yeah I agree about that point on Rule 5, I suggested it in my aforementioned thread because it seems to be the only way we can possibly do a grind survey while still respecting the MA rules governing what is and isn't metal.

I wanted to include Genghis Tron and Happy Face in my list but I refrained from doing so because they don't appear on the archives, its only fair so come on guys don't put bands in your Top 15 that don't appear on the archives. :D
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Last edited by strongbad on Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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morbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:36 am
Posts: 741
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:10 am 
 

strongbad wrote:
Yeah I agree about that point on Rule 5, I suggested it in my aforementioned thread because it seems to be the only way we can possibly do a grind survey while still respecting the MA rules governing what is and isn't grindcore.

I wanted to include Genghis Tron and Happy Face in my list but I refrained from doing so because they don't appear on the archives, its only fair so come on guys don't put bands in your Top 15 that don't appear on the archives. :D


Genghis Tron rule.

I can understand a lot of discussion especially about a lot of 'modern' bands with grindcore infuences. But I never understood why one of the originators like FOG is missig on MA. There was nothing even remotely punk about them. Righteous Pigs had much more hardcore influences for that matter and FOG originally even featured Tschösi from Messiah.
Anyway, I can also understand bands not being on MA that were influential like Siege. But then again, F.O.G. were as pure as grind could get and released material during the most important period, 1987-1988.

But hey, if this would mean I could not include one of the most prominent eighties grindcore outfits, let me know, and I will PM you a another name and album which are on MA.

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wolvie90
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:24 pm
Posts: 215
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:54 am 
 

I'm gonna try and make a list, I'm not a huge grindfan so I don't know if I can make 15 so if you consider my list non-eligible then just ignore it. I'll make it just for fun.

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I Am the Law
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:46 pm
Posts: 519
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:17 pm 
 

Replusion - Horrified

end thread

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morbert
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:36 am
Posts: 741
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:24 pm 
 

I Am the Law wrote:
Replusion - Horrified

end thread

Platitude.......

(but of course in everyone's list)

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strongbad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 146
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:38 pm 
 

morbert wrote:
I Am the Law wrote:
Replusion - Horrified

end thread

Platitude.......

(but of course in everyone's list)


Only made No. 9 in mine :headbang:
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WebOfPiss
Myopic Void

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:17 pm
Posts: 2907
Location: Presidio Modelo
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:39 pm 
 

This is a metal discussion subforum.

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wolvie90
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:24 pm
Posts: 215
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:47 pm 
 

Ah come on leave that damn "grind is not metal"-thing out for once.

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strongbad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 146
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:02 pm 
 

wolvie90 wrote:
Ah come on leave that damn "grind is not metal"-thing out for once.


I couldn't agree more. It clearly is metal
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Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4668
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:13 pm 
 

Grindcore is derived from hardcore punk, not metal.
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BardInTheForest
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:59 pm
Posts: 967
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:15 pm 
 

It would really vary from band to band, I'd say. Grindcore did originally derive itself from hardcore but many bands have plenty of influence from death metal and thrash as well, even to the point where any hardcore influence would be pretty minimal.
The logic of saying that it isn't metal because it isn't derived from metal is completely backwards anyways. With that logic you could simply state that metal isn't metal because it isn't derived from metal. Or more specifically, a lot of thrash isn't metal because it wasn't originally derived from metal.


Last edited by BardInTheForest on Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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strongbad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 146
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:18 pm 
 

Catachthonian wrote:
Grindcore is derived from hardcore punk, not metal.


its a combination of the two though, and anyway you could say that Metal is derived from Rock music, bands existed before Black Sabbath you know and they were clearly influenced by the likes of Hendrix, Zappa, Jethro Tull, etc You wouldn't call these latter three Metal but they influenced Black Sabbath who are arguably the first Metal band, you cannot argue against the fact that Metal is derived from Rock music, yet the two things aren't synonymous. Similarly, Grindcore may be derived from Hardcore Punk but that doesn't make it Punk, it's the Metal influence that makes it Grindcore, otherwise it would still just be Hardcore or Crust punk.
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WebOfPiss
Myopic Void

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:17 pm
Posts: 2907
Location: Presidio Modelo
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:19 pm 
 

Just refer to what BardInTheForest said, strongbad.

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Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4668
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:20 pm 
 

strongbad wrote:
Similarly, Grindcore may be derived from Hardcore Punk but that doesn't make it Punk, it's the Metal influence that makes it Grindcore, otherwise it would still just be Hardcore or Crust punk.

This is just retarded. Pure grindcore has absolutely nothing to do with metal.
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strongbad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 146
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:21 pm 
 

WebOfPiss wrote:
Just refer to what BardInTheForest said, strongbad.


actually I started writing my post before he posted that one ;) Just gives further credence to our argument if anything
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Last edited by strongbad on Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BardInTheForest
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:59 pm
Posts: 967
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:21 pm 
 

Catachthonian wrote:
strongbad wrote:
Similarly, Grindcore may be derived from Hardcore Punk but that doesn't make it Punk, it's the Metal influence that makes it Grindcore, otherwise it would still just be Hardcore or Crust punk.

This is just retarded. Pure grindcore has absolutely nothing to do with metal.


Then it wouldn't be on the archives (with a few exceptions) and it wouldn't have any relevence to this thread.

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strongbad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 146
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:24 pm 
 

Nasum are listed in the archives as 'Grindcore', not Death/Grind, Goregrind or anything else, just simply 'Grindcore'. So there you go, a pure Grindcore band that is considered Metal, because it's in the Archives.

Note: Im NOT saying that the Archives' standard is infallible, but for the purposes of THIS survey the Archives should provide the benchmark for what is and isnt metal, obviously
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Last edited by strongbad on Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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206
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:00 pm
Posts: 966
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:24 pm 
 

No FOG or OLD? If we only limit it to bands on MA then we are going to get 5-8 death/grind bands on the list. That is lame. I'm still going to participate though. Just voicing the fear.

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Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4668
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:25 pm 
 

BardInTheForest wrote:
Catachthonian wrote:
strongbad wrote:
Similarly, Grindcore may be derived from Hardcore Punk but that doesn't make it Punk, it's the Metal influence that makes it Grindcore, otherwise it would still just be Hardcore or Crust punk.

This is just retarded. Pure grindcore has absolutely nothing to do with metal.


Then it wouldn't be on the archives (with a few exceptions) and it wouldn't have any relevence to this thread.

MA Rules wrote:
We accept the following non-metal bands in certain cases (these exceptions can be ambiguous and debatable - scroll down for details):
Grindcore if it's close enough to death metal (ex: Carcass, Napalm Death)

We do NOT accept the following (this is our decision, please don't argue this):
Grindcore (and all its variants; noise, crust, etc) with little to zero metal influence (ex: Anal Cunt, Libido Airbag)
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Last edited by Catachthonian on Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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WebOfPiss
Myopic Void

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:17 pm
Posts: 2907
Location: Presidio Modelo
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:25 pm 
 

Witcher probably accepted them.

OLD is hardly pure grindcore, they have quite a few metallic elements to their music.

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BardInTheForest
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:59 pm
Posts: 967
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:25 pm 
 

206 wrote:
No FOG or OLD? If we only limit it to bands on MA then we are going to get 5-8 death/grind bands on the list. That is lame. I'm still going to participate though. Just voicing the fear.


I just searched 'grind' for the genre and got 2744 hits.

MA Rules wrote:
We accept the following non-metal bands in certain cases (these exceptions can be ambiguous and debatable - scroll down for details):
Grindcore if it's close enough to death metal (ex: Carcass, Napalm Death)


The thread is about grindcore that is on the archives anyways, so what are you trying to argue?


Last edited by BardInTheForest on Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BardInTheForest
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:59 pm
Posts: 967
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:27 pm 
 

double post, sorry.


Last edited by BardInTheForest on Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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strongbad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 146
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:27 pm 
 

exactly, the whole point of these surveys is to help people expand their tastes and get to know some new bands, if you don't want to participate then DONT and stop wasting our time! Grr
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WebOfPiss
Myopic Void

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:17 pm
Posts: 2907
Location: Presidio Modelo
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:28 pm 
 

I think he added that part in later.

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Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4668
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:29 pm 
 

BardInTheForest wrote:
The thread is about grindcore that is on the archives anyways, so what are you trying to argue?

That some people are obviously delusional about the origins of grindcore. Pure grindcore has nothing to do with metal.
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strongbad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 146
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:32 pm 
 

Catachthonian wrote:
BardInTheForest wrote:
The thread is about grindcore that is on the archives anyways, so what are you trying to argue?

That some people are obviously delusional about the origins of grindcore. Pure grindcore has nothing to do with metal.


right well there have been countless threads in these forums dedicated to arguing over the origins of grindcore so just resurrect one of them if you want to talk about it because that's not the point of THIS thread
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Last edited by strongbad on Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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schwuppe
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 6:56 pm
Posts: 227
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:33 pm 
 

Puh that's gonna be tough - there are a lot of grindeCORE bands not listed in the archives.
Folk/viking and heavy survey are still missing by the way.

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BardInTheForest
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:59 pm
Posts: 967
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:33 pm 
 

Catachthonian wrote:
BardInTheForest wrote:
The thread is about grindcore that is on the archives anyways, so what are you trying to argue?

That some people are obviously delusional about the origins of grindcore. Pure grindcore has nothing to do with metal.


I don't think anyone argued that it wasn't derived from hardcore. Just because it was derived from hardcore doesn't necessarily make it un-metal, though, and I think that is where the miscommunication is. I'd agree in saying that a lot of grindcore isn't metal, but much of is metal or close to metal, depending on how strict we're going to be with genre definitions (as if it's really important in this case anyways...) at the same time, as is shown by the MA rules.

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WebOfPiss
Myopic Void

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:17 pm
Posts: 2907
Location: Presidio Modelo
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:33 pm 
 

@schwuppe-Luckily they are.

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Catachthonian
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 4668
Location: Russia
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:34 pm 
 

strongbad wrote:
Catachthonian wrote:
BardInTheForest wrote:
The thread is about grindcore that is on the archives anyways, so what are you trying to argue?

That some people are obviously delusional about the origins of grindcore. Pure grindcore has nothing to do with metal.


right well there have been countless threads in this forum dedicated to arguing over the origins of grindcore so just resurrect one of them if you want to talk about it because that's not the point of THIS thread

If you didn't make "It clearly is metal" comment, I wouldn't start arguing.
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strongbad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 146
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:37 pm 
 

Catachthonian wrote:
strongbad wrote:
Catachthonian wrote:
BardInTheForest wrote:
The thread is about grindcore that is on the archives anyways, so what are you trying to argue?

That some people are obviously delusional about the origins of grindcore. Pure grindcore has nothing to do with metal.


right well there have been countless threads in this forum dedicated to arguing over the origins of grindcore so just resurrect one of them if you want to talk about it because that's not the point of THIS thread

If you didn't make "It clearly is metal" comment, I wouldn't start arguing.


well yeah I was referring to grind bands that are already eligible for this survey pursuant to the MA rules (see Rule 5 of the OP). The point is, for me I would split Metal into a number of categories: Death, Black, Doom, Power, Thrash, Heavy, Viking/Folk and Grind. These categories are for organisational purposes and they help me to sort out various sub-genres in my head and allows me to differentiate between styles, attaching a label to them thus allowing me to expand on that style. (ie. 'Hmm what do I want to listen to today? Something that sounds like Wolves in the Throne Room or something that sounds like Watchmaker? I think the latter, therefore I will now go and try to find some more Grind rather than BM') I know it gives rise to some inaccuracies but I'm willing to overlook them if it helps me to better understand metal as a whole and to expand my horizons
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206
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:00 pm
Posts: 966
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:49 pm 
 

Rule #5 makes this rather difficult... That is all I am saying. Maybe if I was 18 and had only been listening to grind for a few years this would not be a problem - but I remember the 80's, so it is.

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strongbad
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:15 am
Posts: 146
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:51 pm 
 

206 wrote:
Rule #5 makes this rather difficult... That is all I am saying. Maybe if I was 18 and had only been listening to grind for a few years this would not be a problem - but I remember the 80's, so it is.


I totally agree, but what can we do? If we start including bands that aren't technically Metal then this survey no longer belongs anywhere near this website. So it seems either compromise with the Number 5 rule of not have a survey at all? Or put the survey in the Tavern...lol
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Last edited by strongbad on Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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BardInTheForest
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:59 pm
Posts: 967
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:51 pm 
 

206 wrote:
Rule #5 makes this rather difficult... That is all I am saying. Maybe if I was 18 and had only been listening to grind for a few years this would not be a problem - but I remember the 80's, so it is.


What? Shouldn't that give you an even larger array of names to drop, even if many of the ones you would normally put in your top 15 aren't on the archives?

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206
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:00 pm
Posts: 966
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:02 pm 
 

BardInTheForest wrote:
What? Shouldn't that give you an even larger array of names to drop, even if many of the ones you would normally put in your top 15 aren't on the archives?


But if they are not in the archives, they don't count. See the quandary? I can drop names til my head explodes but it wont change the fact that my Top 15 will not at all be My Top 15

It's all good. Just gonna take me a day to sort it out.

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