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Nolan_B
In League With Nolan

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:08 am 
 

One of the first black metal bands from Norway, they only released 3 live albums in the late 90's that were recorded in 1982. Can anybody tell me something about them? Where can I get my hands on their material?

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marktheviktor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:28 am 
 

I don't know who you mean by that name but they were not the first.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:28 am 
 

marktheviktor wrote:
I don't know who you mean by that name but they were not the first.

Who were?

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Nolan_B
In League With Nolan

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:33 am 
 

marktheviktor wrote:
I don't know who you mean by that name but they were not the first.

According to MA they are the first. The first Norwegian black metal recording ever was their live album. Even if it wasn't released until 1998.

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marktheviktor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:41 am 
 

Nolan_B wrote:
marktheviktor wrote:
I don't know who you mean by that name but they were not the first.

According to MA they are the first. The first Norwegian black metal recording ever was their live album. Even if it wasn't released until 1998.


I can assure you that they are apocryphal at best and a an elaborate hoax at worst. Believe it. Mayhem was the first black metal band from Norway.


Last edited by marktheviktor on Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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norilor
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:27 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:42 am 
 

I made a topic about this on another forum.

There are people on this forum that listened to them, and from what I recall they were similar to Venom.

EDIT:

This band is not a hoax. There are several other first wave bands that played in the early 80's and did not release a cd until the late 90's or 00's.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:48 am 
 

marktheviktor wrote:
Nolan_B wrote:
marktheviktor wrote:
I don't know who you mean by that name but they were not the first.

According to MA they are the first. The first Norwegian black metal recording ever was their live album. Even if it wasn't released until 1998.


I can assure you that they are apocryphal at best and a an elaborate hoax at worst. Believe it. Mayhem was the first black metal band from Norway.

Now, assure us.

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Nolan_B
In League With Nolan

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:52 am 
 

marktheviktor wrote:
Nolan_B wrote:
marktheviktor wrote:
I don't know who you mean by that name but they were not the first.

According to MA they are the first. The first Norwegian black metal recording ever was their live album. Even if it wasn't released until 1998.


I can assure you that they are apocryphal at best and a an elaborate hoax at worst. Believe it. Mayhem was the first black metal band from Norway.

You provide no evidence.

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marktheviktor
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:59 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
marktheviktor wrote:
Nolan_B wrote:
marktheviktor wrote:
I don't know who you mean by that name but they were not the first.

According to MA they are the first. The first Norwegian black metal recording ever was their live album. Even if it wasn't released until 1998.


I can assure you that they are apocryphal at best and a an elaborate hoax at worst. Believe it. Mayhem was the first black metal band from Norway.

Now, assure us.



They would have taken credit for it already(before 1990). Mayhem had long since patented the sound of Norwegian black metal(along with Darkthrone and Immortal) and then some jokers named 666 all the sudden come barging in in the late 1990's "leaking" some supposed black metal tapes recorded in 1982? C'mon. P.T. Barnum had it right when he said there is a sucker born every minute.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:12 am 
 

They were first wave black metal, and probably not half as extreme as Bathory or Kreator (they are described as having a hybrid sound of Motorhead and Venom). They must not have been very original or influential, so it is not that surprising that they remained unpopular (combined with the lack of recorded material for a long time).

There is not real "credit" to be given to this band, if the description is true. It's simply the first first wave black metal from Norway, nothing more. It doesn't take any credit for the second wave sound that Mayhem and others pioneered.


Last edited by Kruel on Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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marktheviktor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:17 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
They were first wave black metal, and probably not as extreme as Bathory or Kreator (they are described as having a hybrid sound of Motorhead and Venom). They must not have been very original or influential, so it is not that surprising that they remained unpopular (combined with the lack of recorded material for a long time).


Black metal as a genre is slightly older than its name. But Mayhem are credited with terming it as such taking it from Venom's 1982 record not to mention the various monikers the band members took from Venom and Hellhammer songs etc. They kind of consolidated it as its own genre by embellishing the sounds of early bands who were prior deemed as a type of thrash/speed metal. So, it is also fair to say that they are credited as the first bm band out of Norway in this respect.

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Jonpo
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Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:05 am
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:19 am 
 

marktheviktor wrote:
Black metal as a genre is slightly older than its name. But Mayhem are credited with terming it as such taking it from Venom's 1982 record not to mention the various monikers the band members took from Venom and Hellhammer songs etc. They kind of consolidated it as its own genre by embellishing the sounds of early bands who were prior deemed as thrash. So, it is also fair to say that they are credited as the first bm band out of Norway in this respect.


Isn't the first sentence backwards? The name came about far before the style was solidified.
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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:19 am 
 

marktheviktor wrote:
But Mayhem are credited with terming it as such taking it from Venom's 1982 record

Huh? Venom itself as well as bands like Slayer was referred to as black metal. If anything, black metal as a genre is younger than its name.


Last edited by Kruel on Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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marktheviktor
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:19 am 
 

Jonpo wrote:
marktheviktor wrote:
Black metal as a genre is slightly older than its name. But Mayhem are credited with terming it as such taking it from Venom's 1982 record not to mention the various monikers the band members took from Venom and Hellhammer songs etc. They kind of consolidated it as its own genre by embellishing the sounds of early bands who were prior deemed as thrash. So, it is also fair to say that they are credited as the first bm band out of Norway in this respect.


Isn't the first sentence backwards? The name came about far before the style was solidified.


As a genre, no.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:21 am 
 

What genre? First wave black metal? It was already being called black metal anyway.

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Jonpo
Hypercolombowler

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:21 am 
 

I don't see how thats possible. Even if you believe Venom were playing authentic black metal, the genre isn't older than its name right? They would be the same age. I'm very confused by this statement.
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marktheviktor
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:23 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
marktheviktor wrote:
But Mayhem are credited with terming it as such taking it from Venom's 1982 record

Huh? Venom itself as well as Slayer were referred to as black metal. If anything, black metal as a genre is younger than its name.


In some circles of the underground metal media, maybe. But who now ever refers to Slayer as black metal? Even though they did have some influence on bands from the genre. Remember, Steppenwolf used to be referred to heavy metal back in early days. So some labeling is time sensitive.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:24 am 
 

That's precisely why the name is older than the genre, not vice versa.

Think about it. The name "black metal" was being used in the early 80s. But it really became a genre as we know it now in the late 80s to early 90s. What's older?


Last edited by Kruel on Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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marktheviktor
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:25 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
What genre? First wave black metal? It was already being called black metal anyway.


I really don't deal in waves and all that. Because that just gets too much into semantics. The way I see it, if you want waves, pick up a surf board and go to the beach. Hence, to me good black metal is good black metal.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:26 am 
 

But you implied that Slayer is not black metal.

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marktheviktor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:32 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
But you implied that Slayer is not black metal.


That's because they aren't.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:35 am 
 

Surely not. And that's not helping you (not that it would even if Slayer were black metal).

I'll repeat this:
Kruel wrote:
Think about it. The name "black metal" was being used in the early 80s. But it really became a genre as we know it now in the late 80s to early 90s. What's older?

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marktheviktor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:38 am 
 

I see we are going aroun in circles on this because it seems this is turning into a chicken or egg first type deal.
Back to this 666 business, have any of you guys heard alot of the material?

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:39 am 
 

marktheviktor wrote:
I see we are going aroun in circles on this because it seems this is turning into a chicken or egg first type deal.

No, it's because you are deliberately (as it seems) dodging the argument.

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marktheviktor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:42 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
marktheviktor wrote:
I see we are going aroun in circles on this because it seems this is turning into a chicken or egg first type deal.

No, it's because you are deliberately (as it seems) dodging the argument.



State the question and I will answer.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:46 am 
 

You said:
marktheviktor wrote:
Black metal as a genre is slightly older than its name.


And also you said that first wave bands like Venom and Slayer to be black metal.

However, the term black metal was being used in the early 80s -- making the name approximately 28 years old --, while the genre black metal as we know it today has been established in the late 80s/early 90s, making it about 18 years old.

If the name is 28 years old and the genre is 18 years old, then the name is clearly older than the genre, and your initial statement is false.

Do you agree?

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marktheviktor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:54 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
You said:
marktheviktor wrote:
Black metal as a genre is slightly older than its name.


And also you said that first wave bands like Venom and Slayer to be black metal.

However, the term black metal was being used in the early 80s -- making the name approximately 28 years old --, while the genre black metal as we know it today has been established in the late 80s/early 90s, making it about 18 years old.

If the name is 28 years old and the genre is 18 years old, then the name is clearly older than the genre, and your initial statement is false.

Do you agree?



1. Where in any post did I ever say Slayer was black metal? Somebody said Slayer were once considered black metal back in the day. That was not me who said that. To which I rebutted about them having some influence on some bands in black metal and then made the Steppenwolf parallel.

2. Somewhat agree on your last question but that depends on two things:
a. Black Metal as the name of an ALBUM is 26 years old.
b. But as a recognized and widely termed genre of its own to take that name of 'black metal' from Venom's record prior to 1987, no.

So, couldn't a good case be made that it is older than it's name? Perhaps.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:02 am 
 

marktheviktor wrote:
1. Where in any post did I ever say Slayer was black metal?

Oh, I was editting that part but failed to finish editting the whole sentence. You didn't say they were black metal. My apologies.

Quote:
2. Somewhat agree on your last question but that depends on two things:
a. Black Metal as the name of an ALBUM is 26 years old.
b. But as a recognized and widely termed genre of its own to take that name of 'black metal' prior to 1987, no.

So, couldn't a good case be made that it is older than it's name? Perhaps.



a. It was not just the name of the album; the usage of the term black metal to describe Satanic metal bands was widespread.

b. I can see where you're getting at, but how would you draw the line between the terms black metal as a reference to Satanic black metal bands and black metal as a fully established genre? (Note that I am talking about the names, not musical genres.)

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marktheviktor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:20 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
marktheviktor wrote:
1. Where in any post did I ever say Slayer was black metal?

Oh, I was editting that part but failed to finish editting the whole sentence. You didn't say they were black metal. My apologies.

Quote:
2. Somewhat agree on your last question but that depends on two things:
a. Black Metal as the name of an ALBUM is 26 years old.
b. But as a recognized and widely termed genre of its own to take that name of 'black metal' prior to 1987, no.

So, couldn't a good case be made that it is older than it's name? Perhaps.



a. It was not just the name of the album; the usage of the term black metal to describe Satanic metal bands was widespread.

b. I can see where you're getting at, but how would you draw the line between the terms black metal as a reference to Satanic black metal bands and black metal as a fully established genre?



Re: a. Being around a few die hard metalheads at the time and perusing some imported 1985 niche metal zine from Switzerland, nowhere did I ever remember bands like Venom, Celtic Frost and Sodom being referred to on a regular basis as black metal. Could I have missed it? Most certainly, and I don't doubt that it was indeed used from time to time as a descriptor or adjective for a small group of thrash bands from Europe at the time.

Re: b. This one is easy. The so called "Black Metal Inner Circle" inaugurated by one Øystein "Euronymous" Aarseth in Helvete which included Abbath, Satyr, Hellhammer, Samoth, Fenriz and Ihsahn in his legion. With the already famed noteriety and innuendo of theistic Satanism, the rest was obviously history.
I'm sure Bezerko will pop up here shortly to back me up on this but after reading his surprisingly disappointed review of Live in Leipzig today, I won't hold my breath.

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Bezerko
Vladimir Poopin

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:34 am 
 

Oh why the hell not.

Firstly, Leipzig is lame, listen to other stuff from that era and you'll know what I mean. ;)

Secondly, Ihsahn and Abbath weren't ever in the "black circle" by their own admission, though Samoth and Faust were of course. And was Satyr in there? I thought Satyricon wasn't as "connected" as the other bands? Either way Satyr is a knob, fuck him.

It's really quite hard to say when black metal become it's own genre. My personal opinion is 1987, at that stage you had The Return and Under the Sign of the Black Mark out (that were black fucking metal of course!) and of course, the one, the only...

DEATHCRUSH. :drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love:

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Nolan_B
In League With Nolan

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:36 am 
 

So... uhh 666?

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:40 am 
 

a. The point is that the term was used, and Euronymous most likely adopted it from that usage.

b. I can see it more clearly now. But some questions remain: first, what date should be considered "the starting of the Inner Circle"? The day Helvete opened? But what if Euronymous and his friends used the term before to describe the "circle" of theirs? And secondly, when did the second wave black metal become solidified as a genre? (this is not merely about "were albums that can be considered second wave by today's standards released at the time?")


Last edited by Kruel on Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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marktheviktor
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:40 am 
 

Bezerko wrote:
Oh why the hell not.

Firstly, Leipzig is lame, listen to other stuff from that era and you'll know what I mean. ;)

Secondly, Ihsahn and Abbath weren't ever in the "black circle" by their own admission, though Samoth and Faust were of course. And was Satyr in there? I thought Satyricon wasn't as "connected" as the other bands? Either way Satyr is a knob, fuck him.

It's really quite hard to say when black metal become it's own genre. My personal opinion is 1987, at that stage you had The Return and Under the Sign of the Black Mark out (that were black fucking metal of course!) and of course, the one, the only...

DEATHCRUSH. :drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love::drool::love:



Deathcrush is the reason why I mentioned 1987 earlier in my arguement. Although, personally I feel it's sound is more gore metal than the more grim sound that they would later take on when Dead came aboard. Hence, I feel it to be overrated but infleuntial nonetheless.
Yes, Satyr was one of the guys in that very exclusive "fraternity"

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marktheviktor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:45 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
a. The point is that the term was used, and Euronymous most likely adopted it from that usage.

b. I can see it more clearly now. But some questions remain: first, what date should be considered "the starting of the Inner Circle"? The day Helvete opened? But what if Euronymous and his friends used the term before to describe the "circle" of theirs? And secondly, when did the second wave black metal become solidified as a genre? (this is not merely about "were albums that can be considered second wave by today's standards released at the time?")


That Euronymous coined it for the Inners, is what I was getting at all along. So, yeah I am sure black metal was used before that too but Euronymous really was the one who put it out there for everyone else abroad to coin it as such. We are in agreement now.

Again, Deathcrush in 1987 is why I look at it for the timeline designation.


Last edited by marktheviktor on Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nolan_B
In League With Nolan

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:46 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
And secondly, when did the second wave black metal become solidified as a genre? (this is not merely about "were albums that can be considered second wave by today's standards released at the time?")

I'd say around 1992. A few churches had been burned and the media was starting to use the term.

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marktheviktor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:47 am 
 

Nolan_B wrote:
So... uhh 666?



What about them? They came a little late to the party, don't ya think?

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Nolan_B
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:49 am 
 

marktheviktor wrote:
Nolan_B wrote:
So... uhh 666?



What about them? They came a little late to the party, don't ya think?


How can I hear them? I don't really care anymore about how influential they were.

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Kruel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:51 am 
 

marktheviktor wrote:
Nolan_B wrote:
So... uhh 666?



What about them? They came a little late to the party, don't ya think?

Late? :???: They were early.

By the way, are there any samples on the Internet? This stuff seems pretty hard to find.

Nolan_B wrote:
How can I hear them? I don't really care anymore about how influential they were.

Ah, so you haven't heard it either?

marktheviktor wrote:
That Euronymous coined it for the Inners, is what I was getting at all along. So, yeah I am sure black metal was used before that too but Euronymous really was the one who put it out there for everyone else abroad to coin it as such. We are in agreement now.

Again, Deathcrush in 1987 is why I look at it for the timeline designation.

I wouldn't really say black metal was established as a genre in 1987. Whether Deathcrush itself is second-wave or first-wave is an iffy matter, too.

I can definitely see how the black metal sound, if not the genre, might predate the modern usage of the name, though.


Last edited by Kruel on Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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marktheviktor
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:55 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
marktheviktor wrote:
Nolan_B wrote:
So... uhh 666?



What about them? They came a little late to the party, don't ya think?

Late? :???: They were early.




Allegedly. I find it interesting that this "lost relic" decided to strategically leak their stuff so conspicously well after Euronymous was killed. Shenanigans? I'll lay my life on it.

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Bezerko
Vladimir Poopin

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:50 am
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Location: Venestraya
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:01 am 
 

Oh lay off it, MA (which I'm inclined to trust on this issue) says they were gigging in the early '80s.

MA wrote:
The band preferred the stage to the studio. Working their local live circuit hard, their probably most seminal performance was at the Festspillene festival in Harstad (considered North Norway's premium cultural event) where 666 was billed as the rock/metal 'alibi' of the festival in 1983.


It's quite believable that they recorded some of these gigs.

As for samples, I've tried searching the net before but never found anything. :(

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