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MapleKit
34 going on 14

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:43 pm
Posts: 529
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:35 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
I personally find obituary to be heavier and more crushing than most grindcore/deathcore or "brutal" death.

I liked at the currently ongoing nocturnus tour i was approached by some guy in the 40's saying that i was too young for this kind of music. I responded with i had to start sometime no? I guess my looks dont really help either, i dont really look like a 20 year old.
I agree Obituary are heavier than any modern brutal death metal band. It seems people think fast = heavy, and that's just not right. Slow crushing riffs are heavy. Something like Asphyx or something is far heavier than any decrepit birth crap.

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8684
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:37 pm 
 

awm wrote:
I am not saying that all genres are defined by lyrics.

Yeah Morbid Angel's lyrics are often about Ancient Gods and Obituary's are more just like dying and gruesome stuff but they can be encompassed under an umbrella category that is (almost) always the focus of death metal, call it morbid fantasy or evil or whatever you want. Regardless, that category is not one thing-- mundane. Politics are mundane.


How is gore not mundane?

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:43 pm 
 

If you experience gore in your everyday routine and are not alarmed by it, I guess you would have a different definition of mundane.


Mundane means common in addition to earthly.

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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:44 pm 
 

awm wrote:
No that doesn't meet "anybody else's" semantic standards. That statement is far more egregiously inaccurate than my use of "highly specific." I only rephrased it to try to circumvent the pointless semantic complaints, which was apparently, in turn, pointless.

Ah, yes, my usage was incorrect but that was obviously hyperbolic.
Quote:
In regard to your real question, I am saying that lyrical content is one of the defining features of death metal. Similarly, electric guitar playing is one of the defining features of rock music in general. Yet there are rock bands without guitars... but they meet most other criteria so they are still counted. It is impossible to list criteria for a genre that will cover all aberrations. It is only possible to list typical characteristics. Any vocal style, lyrical content, type of drumming, tempo, or any other feature could be deviated from and the band would still be considered part of the genre. But you can't define the genre based on deviations.

If more than a handful of death metal bands had political lyrics the story would be different.

273 bands... well I guess it depends on your semantic standards regarding the word 'handful.'

Anyway, I get your point, but your point is irrelevant. It would have been, if you listed the "defining characteristics" and did not mention that some death metal has political lyrics. However, you specifically said that death metal never has political lyrics.

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MapleKit
34 going on 14

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:43 pm
Posts: 529
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:46 pm 
 

Gore lyrics are dumb and I really try to avoid them. I'm very much in Morbid Angel type lyrics though. I like horror type lyrics, but when the lyrics are talking about shitting on a corpse, then you IQ starts to drop as you listen to it.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:46 pm 
 

I was unfamiliar with them.

237 out of how many?

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Kruel
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:47 pm 
 

awm wrote:
I was unfamiliar with them.

237 out of how many?

About 20,000. But I'm not trying to argue that political lyrics are common in death metal anyway.

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8684
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:47 pm 
 

Does the ratio matter? Some of the most influential bands in the genre are politically oriented.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:51 pm 
 

MapleKit wrote:
Gore lyrics are dumb and I really try to avoid them. I'm very much in Morbid Angel type lyrics though. I like horror type lyrics, but when the lyrics are talking about shitting on a corpse, then you IQ starts to drop as you listen to it.


Not all gore lyrics are that bad but I agree with you. I'd rather listen to someone trying to invoke Enlil or something.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:53 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
Does the ratio matter? Some of the most influential bands in the genre are politically oriented.


If there was a really good way to figure it out, influence (or how many records sold) could be determined and then based on that you could take a weighted ratio. Both are factors.

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8684
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:54 pm 
 

I am saying that the ratio matters not at all in any case. 200+ is certainly more than a "handful" and that there are heavy hitters in the genre who contain lyrical themes that you deem "unfit" for death metal certainly adds to the fact that you're wrong.

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MapleKit
34 going on 14

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:43 pm
Posts: 529
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:03 pm 
 

awm wrote:
MapleKit wrote:
Gore lyrics are dumb and I really try to avoid them. I'm very much in Morbid Angel type lyrics though. I like horror type lyrics, but when the lyrics are talking about shitting on a corpse, then you IQ starts to drop as you listen to it.


Not all gore lyrics are that bad but I agree with you. I'd rather listen to someone trying to invoke Enlil or something.
The death metal bands i grew up on sometimes had gore lyrics but they were not very graphic at all. I've read some modern brutal death metal lyrics where I questioned the sanity of the author of the lyrics. I like to think metal and intelligence go together, but some of these bands make me embarrassed sometimes. An example of lyrics I enjoy are the lyrics of Nocturnus. I like the sci fi themes alot.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:06 pm 
 

200 out of 20,000 is 1%. I don't know what you consider a handful to be.

More than one out of every hundred Republicans is pro-choice. Some of them are "heavy hitters." Define Republican social policy.

It's not about being fit or unfit. It is about being able to reasonably define something. I would much rather hear the death metal bands that don't fit, personally.

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MadassAlex
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 6:20 am
Posts: 64
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:10 pm 
 

Death metal often has lyrics, if not specifically political, that touch on matters of high political interest. Religion is a perfect example, as is dealing with mortality and its taboos. Consider, for a moment, Death. "Pull The Plug" was about euthanasia. Not blatantly political, but a sore topic and of wider interest.
When you move into religion, the music more strongly implies personal policies and philosophies that may as well be considered a part of the political spectrum of music. For that reason, I consider Slayer political for their criticism of religion.

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Kruel
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:16 pm 
 

awm wrote:
200 out of 20,000 is 1%. I don't know what you consider a handful to be.

More than one out of every hundred Republicans is pro-choice. Some of them are "heavy hitters." Define Republican social policy.

It's not about being fit or unfit. It is about being able to reasonably define something. I would much rather hear the death metal bands that don't fit, personally.

You're missing the point. Take another look at your original statement:

awm wrote:

Grindcore has punk influence and sometimes political lyrics. Death metal never has that.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:16 pm 
 

Euthanasia is a political topic, but it is unclear whether "Pull the Plug" is a criticism on current law or simply a story about someone dying.

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MapleKit
34 going on 14

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:43 pm
Posts: 529
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:18 pm 
 

awm wrote:
Euthanasia is a political topic, but it is unclear whether "Pull the Plug" is a criticism on current law or simply a story about someone dying.
The album Spiritual Healing also had alot of political lyrics.

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Kruel
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:18 pm 
 

It is actually pretty clear that the lyrics to Pull the Plug are advocating euthanasia.

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MapleKit
34 going on 14

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:43 pm
Posts: 529
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:19 pm 
 

Kruel wrote:
It is actually pretty clear that the lyrics to Pull the Plug are advocating euthanasia.
Yep, and also the lyrics to Suicide Machine are pretty straight forward too.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:23 pm 
 

Kruel wrote:
awm wrote:
200 out of 20,000 is 1%. I don't know what you consider a handful to be.

More than one out of every hundred Republicans is pro-choice. Some of them are "heavy hitters." Define Republican social policy.

It's not about being fit or unfit. It is about being able to reasonably define something. I would much rather hear the death metal bands that don't fit, personally.

You're missing the point. Take another look at your original statement:

awm wrote:

Grindcore has punk influence and sometimes political lyrics. Death metal never has that.


I have said approximately three times that when I made that statement I was not aware of any death metal bands that had those lyrics. I have modified and clarified it since. Instead of either agreeing or disagreeing with that clarification, you have instead chosen to make tangential and semantic criticisms of unrelated things that have needlessly drawn out the discussion. I think you are very aware of that. Furthermore when I respond to those tangents you blame me for taking the discussion off topic, when in fact you are the one who has done that.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:28 pm 
 

Yeah Suicide Machine's look pretty straightforward.

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MapleKit
34 going on 14

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:43 pm
Posts: 529
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:32 pm 
 

awm wrote:
Yeah Suicide Machine's look pretty straightforward.
The topics discussed on Death's Spiritual Healing album are also an interesting read. Check them out if you haven't.

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Kruel
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:33 pm 
 

awm wrote:
I have said approximately three times that when I made that statement I was not aware of any death metal bands that had those lyrics. I have modified and clarified it since.

Not really, you made no mention that your original statment was wrong, and whatever modification you made (I'm guessing that it is the "why define something by an aspect of it that specifically breaks the mold?" part) didn't have to do with that, because you said "death metal never has political lyrics," not "death metal has gore/occult/death/etc. lyrics." If you just said that without adding "some death metal bands have political lyrics," it would have been fine: I wouldn't have said anytihng about it, and if I did it would have been explained by your later "clarification." But that was not the case.

Quote:
Instead of either agreeing or disagreeing with that clarification, you have instead chosen to make tangential and semantic criticisms of unrelated things that have needlessly drawn out the discussion. I think you are very aware of that.

If it was not related, then you can treat it as antoher discussion on its own.

Quote:
Furthermore when I respond to those tangents you blame me for taking the discussion off topic

When?

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:47 pm 
 

Kruel, I will just concede the point to you. Death metal lyrics are about whatever.

MapleKit wrote:
awm wrote:
Yeah Suicide Machine's look pretty straightforward.
The topics discussed on Death's Spiritual Healing album are also an interesting read. Check them out if you haven't.


Yeah I am going to. It looks like that album received a poor allmusic rating but it is one of the highest rated on here. Is it among your favorites?

I like Death but the vocals are not my favorite.

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MapleKit
34 going on 14

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:43 pm
Posts: 529
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:52 pm 
 

awm wrote:
Kruel, I will just concede the point to you. Death metal lyrics are about whatever.

MapleKit wrote:
awm wrote:
Yeah Suicide Machine's look pretty straightforward.
The topics discussed on Death's Spiritual Healing album are also an interesting read. Check them out if you haven't.


Yeah I am going to. It looks like that album received a poor allmusic rating but it is one of the highest rated on here. Is it among your favorites?

I like Death but the vocals are not my favorite.
Yes Spiritual Healing is one of my favorite death metal albums. It's fantastic.

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Oflick
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:12 am
Posts: 212
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:15 pm 
 

awm wrote:
MapleKit wrote:
awm wrote:
Yeah Suicide Machine's look pretty straightforward.
The topics discussed on Death's Spiritual Healing album are also an interesting read. Check them out if you haven't.


Yeah I am going to. It looks like that album received a poor allmusic rating but it is one of the highest rated on here. Is it among your favorites?


I've found allmusic ratings often simply reflect the impact albums have had on the music world, so they're not a great source unless you're looking for what they would consider important or landmark albums.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:19 pm 
 

Allmusic for metal is kind of a waste. For other genres, it is sometimes on target and sometimes not. Like I am sure if I typed in Neil Young I would rank the albums differently.

I actually found this website because I have been looking up a lot of lesser-known thrash albums that aren't reviewed on Allmusic.com

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mjaeltbrand
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:46 am
Posts: 927
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:29 am 
 

HeavyMetalSteve wrote:
.... I've heard "Scream Bloody Gore sucks because all thrash metal sucks", "Fuck Kreator, Testament were way more technical than Kreator", "Possessed were just a faster less melodic Slayer rip off"


Have I got your permission to decapitate them with a blunt shovel?
_________________
Lippyass Major wrote:
I view any attempt to keep metal unpopular as false, because I view metal (not only do I view it; I know it to be) as an army looking for recruits. People trying to keep it down are weakening our military.

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