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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:15 am 
 

Public Enemy isn't rap.

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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:19 am 
 

Blast-beat isn't rhythm.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:19 am 
 

Thank you.

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8769
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:22 am 
 

Of course, but it is a technique that contains rhythm which is a musical device.

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thrashfan07
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:31 pm
Posts: 925
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:08 pm 
 

Leviathan_Division wrote:
I really detest these new bands. For me, Incantation, Bolt Thrower, Morbid Angel etc will always be heavier. It dousn't matter how down tuned your guitar is, it dousn't matter how slow your breakdowns are, its about creating a sickening atmosphere.
Agreed. I personally consider Incantation to be about as heavy as it gets, especially their death metal breakdowns (let's see you poser -core bands create something as wicked as the slow parts of 'Christening the Afterbirth' :headbang:)
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goatmanejy
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:38 am
Posts: 218
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:19 pm 
 

corpse wrote:
rexxz wrote:
ahr888 wrote:
Death metal has been around long enough that those disagreements are somewhat generational. It all depends on what you grew up listening, what you listened at first when you identified a certain genre, or whether you changed your preferences in time. If one thinks that the latest is always the greatest, then today's metal is metal. For us who grew up with the old stuff, the newer material fails to impress.


That's not really true at all. I didn't grow up listening to Elvis, but am I going to say he didn't play rock 'n roll? Of course not.


Although Elvis is so overly popular, it's possible that someone not educated about music might not draw that conclusion, i.e. someone ill informed. How about Eddie Cochran or Carl Perkins? Would someone who liked new rock bands (are there any out there?!) know about those innovators or where it came from? Is their definition of rock and roll from Elvis or is it from The Beatles or from Led Zeppelin, etc? Fact is, it's all rock and roll, but in this case; does metal like Obituary not necessarily translate to some newer fans because it's too old school or perhaps considered not "brutal" enough?

Usually unfortunately that lack of knowledge is displayed by the ignorant and un-informed.


I honestly dont think most of Elvis' material is rock and roll. Elvis played many styles, but the bulk of his style is Rockabilly, a seperate thing completely. To me, calling Elvis rock is like calling Slayer metal: They pioneered it but dont really play it themselves.
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trier36
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:20 pm 
 

"Annotations of an Autopsy" stated that their music was "death metal" wtf?! XD I hate those fucking "br00tal" bands, who plays "deathcore" wtf is that shit? It's brutal grind for brutal dudes, also known as "scene kids". I can't stand it.

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Zetan
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:54 am
Posts: 308
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:23 pm 
 

trier36 wrote:
"Annotations of an Autopsy" stated that their music was "death metal" wtf?! XD I hate those fucking "br00tal" bands, who plays "deathcore" wtf is that shit? It's brutal grind for brutal dudes, also known as "scene kids". I can't stand it.


I can't stand people who keep moaning about grindcore, core, or whatever they happen to jump on the band wagon of. It bugs me more than the people who listen to it, and I'll listen to what I like whether anybody else likes it or not.
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MokomakiKusimuki
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:23 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:55 pm 
 

goatmanejy wrote:
To me, calling Elvis rock is like calling Slayer metal: They pioneered it but dont really play it themselves.


I think you need to elaborate more on that.

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206
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:00 pm
Posts: 966
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:08 pm 
 

Zetan wrote:
I can't stand people who keep moaning about grindcore, core, or whatever they happen to jump on the band wagon of.


Yet you have exceptional tolerance for making general declarative statements :D

Some genres get the shaft and grind is one of them. A good portion of listeners think any death metal with blastbeats is grind. Others think an band with drop-tuned guitars using blast beats is goregrind. It's pretty fucked up and makes it hard to have a decent coversation.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:14 pm 
 

MokomakiKusimuki wrote:
goatmanejy wrote:
To me, calling Elvis rock is like calling Slayer metal: They pioneered it but dont really play it themselves.


I think you need to elaborate more on that.
Why elaborate on something that is wrong?

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Zetan
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:54 am
Posts: 308
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:40 pm 
 

206 wrote:
Zetan wrote:
I can't stand people who keep moaning about grindcore, core, or whatever they happen to jump on the band wagon of.


Yet you have exceptional tolerance for making general declarative statements :D

Some genres get the shaft and grind is one of them. A good portion of listeners think any death metal with blastbeats is grind. Others think an band with drop-tuned guitars using blast beats is goregrind. It's pretty fucked up and makes it hard to have a decent coversation.


Yes, of course.. you are right.

No, fuck you.. I don't give a shit.


My point stands.

Ra\ndom?

Grind and Death Metal are two different things.. close, maybe.. and that really does depend on who you talk to.

Arguments about what the fuck you like in metal become irrelevant when you need to compare and bitch about what you don't like.

I don't give a fuck what you do or don't like.. I have a problem if you feel the need to preach to me. Talk here about metal.. grand! Do not preach.


Thanks
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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:44 pm 
 

Man grindcore is not close to death metal.

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blood_and_fire
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:26 pm
Posts: 173
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:47 pm 
 

How exactly would I explain the diferrence between grindcore and deathmetal, and deathcore and death metal to people. Like, I can tell for myself, but I really can't put it into words. My friends are always mixing them up, and calling real death metal pussy music. Kind of like how apparently JFAC is more death metal than Vital Remains to them, and how Whitechapel is Grindcore according to the guitarist for my old band.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:01 pm 
 

Grindcore has punk influence and sometimes political lyrics. Death metal never has that.

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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:02 pm 
 

awm wrote:
Grindcore has punk influence and sometimes political lyrics. Death metal never has that.

Wrong... just wrong.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:08 pm 
 

Another miracle of unsubstantiation.

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Kruel
Veteran

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:16 pm 
 

Maybe because everybody already has the substance to udnerstand that it's wrong...?

First of all, saying grindcore is influenced by punk is like saying death metal is influenced by metal. Grindcore is punk, just as death metal is metal.

And death metal has no punk influence and political lyrics? Certainly less than in grindcore, but thrash, from which was spawned death metal, was punk-influenced (not to mention death metal bands that directly took influence from punk) and a quick advanced search will reveal numerous death metal bands with political lyrics.

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goatmanejy
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:38 am
Posts: 218
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:28 pm 
 

awm wrote:
MokomakiKusimuki wrote:
goatmanejy wrote:
To me, calling Elvis rock is like calling Slayer metal: They pioneered it but dont really play it themselves.


I think you need to elaborate more on that.
Why elaborate on something that is wrong?


I meant to say DEATH metal. Sorry. I have an annoying web filter that sometimes blocks "offensive" words.
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FenrirsWrath
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:37 pm
Posts: 84
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:56 pm 
 

I could give numerous examples of idiots similar to the OP's or others who have posted here. But unless the individuals are actually members of a good DM band (which I doubt) or people who have good taste in metal otherwise, their opinions are invalid. I usually do as the OP has said he did. Just get drunk and have a good time. It's usually not worth the time to try to broaden another's horizons or try to "convert" someone to good metal. Or even argue with someone intensely over how Obituary is death metal and Slipknot is not. Just drink your beer and have fun. It usually will be the difference of being proven right or getting laid.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:10 am 
 

Kruel wrote:
Maybe because everybody already has the substance to udnerstand that it's wrong...?

First of all, saying grindcore is influenced by punk is like saying death metal is influenced by metal. Grindcore is punk, just as death metal is metal.

And death metal has no punk influence and political lyrics? Certainly less than in grindcore, but thrash, from which was spawned death metal, was punk-influenced (not to mention death metal bands that directly took influence from punk) and a quick advanced search will reveal numerous death metal bands with political lyrics.


What, musically, connects The Clash and Phobia? Grindcore is an amalgamation of all kinds of stuff. Calling it punk is not accurate.

There probably are some death metal bands that have political lyrics because people will try everything, but that is atypical. You could say bands like Dying Fetus have political lyrics, but that's a stretch. It's like politics through a morbid lens. If there is a death metal band with straight protest lyrics, why define something by an aspect of it that specifically breaks the mold? Thrash started out with some political bands and no standard lyrical genre. Death metal started with a highly specific lyrical style.

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MapleKit
34 going on 14

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:43 pm
Posts: 529
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:17 pm 
 

Dying Fetus do have political lyrics and so have many other death metal bands. Although I don't think Dying fetus are pure death metal. Actually I think they suck.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:04 pm 
 

They do, that was just the only one that came to mind.

Other than Morbid Angel, Obituary, Death and Benediction I listen to very little death metal regularly.

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Kruel
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
Posts: 3426
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:30 pm 
 

awm wrote:
What, musically, connects The Clash and Phobia? Grindcore is an amalgamation of all kinds of stuff. Calling it punk is not accurate.

So what connects Judas Priest and Morbid Angel? Oh yeah, Slayer. There is this thing called hardcore punk that connects early punk and grindcore. And while I concede that not all grindcore may be classifiable as punk, grindcore was originally spawned from hardcore punk, and pure grind at least is indeed punk.

Quote:
There probably are some death metal bands that have political lyrics because people will try everything, but that is atypical. You could say bands like Dying Fetus have political lyrics, but that's a stretch. It's like politics through a morbid lens. If there is a death metal band with straight protest lyrics, why define something by an aspect of it that specifically breaks the mold? Thrash started out with some political bands and no standard lyrical genre. Death metal started with a highly specific lyrical style.

Doesn't matter; you said death metal doesn't have political lyrics and that is false. By the way, what do you mean by "highly specific"? I don't see that much similarity between the lyrics of Morbid Angel and Obituary, for instance.

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8769
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:39 pm 
 

I guess Master [US] and Requiem [Che] aren't death metal, according to awm.

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trueMunchies
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:19 pm
Posts: 323
Location: Israel
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:41 pm 
 

If lyrical themes are what make the band part of a genre then Iron Maiden would be power metal, Slayer would be blackened death metal and Metallica would be grindcore... and Pantera would be gangsta rap.
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BigBen87
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:30 pm
Posts: 44
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:40 pm 
 

core is for queers.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:46 pm 
 

I am not saying that all genres are defined by lyrics.

Yeah Morbid Angel's lyrics are often about Ancient Gods and Obituary's are more just like dying and gruesome stuff but they can be encompassed under an umbrella category that is (almost) always the focus of death metal, call it morbid fantasy or evil or whatever you want. Regardless, that category is not one thing-- mundane. Politics are mundane.

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Noobbot
Mors_Gloria + Thesaurus

Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:48 pm
Posts: 426
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:03 pm 
 

awm wrote:
Kruel wrote:
Maybe because everybody already has the substance to udnerstand that it's wrong...?

First of all, saying grindcore is influenced by punk is like saying death metal is influenced by metal. Grindcore is punk, just as death metal is metal.

And death metal has no punk influence and political lyrics? Certainly less than in grindcore, but thrash, from which was spawned death metal, was punk-influenced (not to mention death metal bands that directly took influence from punk) and a quick advanced search will reveal numerous death metal bands with political lyrics.


What, musically, connects The Clash and Phobia? Grindcore is an amalgamation of all kinds of stuff. Calling it punk is not accurate.

There probably are some death metal bands that have political lyrics because people will try everything, but that is atypical. You could say bands like Dying Fetus have political lyrics, but that's a stretch. It's like politics through a morbid lens. If there is a death metal band with straight protest lyrics, why define something by an aspect of it that specifically breaks the mold? Thrash started out with some political bands and no standard lyrical genre. Death metal started with a highly specific lyrical style.


I hope that my previous blasphemies can be forgiven, because it seems to me that grindcore is basically typically a fusion of crust punk and crossover thrash, deathgrind and the like nonwithstanding, but, like death metal, grind runs a rather wide gamut - albeit maybe not as vast as death metal - so it's best to assign only the absolutely true commonalities to the collective as opposed to assigning what may prove to be strawmen in many a case. In the past, I [wrongly] assumed that some deathcore bands were grind because I had little experience with either grind or deathcore (and the latter of which I am not apologetic for in the slightest), but I have taken it upon myself to further understanding and invite anyone to correct me if I am still incorrect.

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Kruel
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:22 pm 
 

awm wrote:
I am not saying that all genres are defined by lyrics.

Yeah Morbid Angel's lyrics are often about Ancient Gods and Obituary's are more just like dying and gruesome stuff but they can be encompassed under an umbrella category that is (almost) always the focus of death metal, call it morbid fantasy or evil or whatever you want. Regardless, that category is not one thing-- mundane. Politics are mundane.

How is that highly specific, then?

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Sionis
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:54 pm
Posts: 150
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:31 pm 
 

New death metal is WAYYYY out of touch with the roots..I personally hate it (Excluding Nile and The Black Dahlia Murder). All the new death metal bands care about is how technical they can go, hell most of their lyrical themes are the same (Necrophilia), they also try to get their vocals the lowest but in the end it sounds like they're farting into the fucking mic. Yeah, classic bands like Death, Obituary, Atheist, Cannibal Corpse, Autopsy all induce a really awesome atmosphere. I'm not saying that new death metal bands don't do that (Nile) but most of them just want to be the fastest and the most "Br00tal".

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Kruel
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:36 pm 
 

That's not what this topic is about, though, as you would know if you have read the OP.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:00 pm 
 

Kruel wrote:
awm wrote:
I am not saying that all genres are defined by lyrics.

Yeah Morbid Angel's lyrics are often about Ancient Gods and Obituary's are more just like dying and gruesome stuff but they can be encompassed under an umbrella category that is (almost) always the focus of death metal, call it morbid fantasy or evil or whatever you want. Regardless, that category is not one thing-- mundane. Politics are mundane.

How is that highly specific, then?


No other genre has lyrical content that standardized. Blues is maybe the closest.

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Kruel
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:04 pm 
 

Death metal lyrics are not standardized. And you have said yourself that they fall under an umbrella (though in reality even that is not necessary), which is pretty contradictory to being highly specific.

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Regurgitation
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 73
Location: Iceland
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:09 pm 
 

Brutal/Slam Death Metal rules. Old School Death Metal rules. Win/win.


Last edited by Regurgitation on Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:10 pm 
 

I won't go back and forth over what "highly specific" means because there is no exact measure of what is highly specific and what is roughly specific or generally related, or any of those. You seem to think there is an exact definition of that phrase and that I am missing it. So put it this way...by comparison to most forms of music, death metal lyrics are more focused around a particular content area.

That is about as true of a statement as could be made and it is what I have meant the entire time whether the phrasing met your semantic standards or not.

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Kruel
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Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:56 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:13 pm 
 

More like anybody else's semantic standards.

Anyway, so what are you trying to say, then? That death metal bands with political lyrics are not death metal?

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Regurgitation
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:27 pm
Posts: 73
Location: Iceland
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:17 pm 
 

That's like saying Wormed are not Brutal Death Metal because of their (rather unneeded) space / technology lyrics.

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tomcat_ha
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
Posts: 2879
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:25 pm 
 

I personally find obituary to be heavier and more crushing than most grindcore/deathcore or "brutal" death.

I liked at the currently ongoing nocturnus tour i was approached by some guy in the 40's saying that i was too young for this kind of music. I responded with i had to start sometime no? I guess my looks dont really help either, i dont really look like a 20 year old.

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awm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 1220
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:32 pm 
 

No that doesn't meet "anybody else's" semantic standards. That statement is far more egregiously inaccurate than my use of "highly specific." I only rephrased it to try to circumvent the pointless semantic complaints, which was apparently, in turn, pointless.

In regard to your real question, I am saying that lyrical content is one of the defining features of death metal. Similarly, electric guitar playing is one of the defining features of rock music in general. Yet there are rock bands without guitars... but they meet most other criteria so they are still counted. It is impossible to list criteria for a genre that will cover all aberrations. It is only possible to list typical characteristics. Any vocal style, lyrical content, type of drumming, tempo, or any other feature could be deviated from and the band would still be considered part of the genre. But you can't define the genre based on deviations.

If more than a handful of death metal bands had political lyrics the story would be different.

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