What saying is that?

(Unfortunately, in less forward-thinking times, there was a popular saying about Internet arguments and the Special Olympics... But I don't think that's what you have in mind!)

Anywho, I've been having a hard time making out Frozen218's position, but I think it comes down to the idea that people who are drawn to dark music are all drawn to it for basically the same reason, something to do with the "shadow self" (I can't really say I know my Jung), and that people who say things like "I find Varg repulsive but do enjoy his music" are therefore kidding themselves: Psychologically, the creator and consumer of Burzum are of the same ("shadowy") substance, even if many of those consumers are better at repressing this substance...?

Is that what's being claimed? If so, I would also tend to doubt that that's the only or the most plausible way of looking at things, however interesting it might be. But I just want to make sure I know what's being argued.

No not that one, the one I'm thinking of is "it's hard to win an argument against an intelligent person, it's impossible to win one against an unintelligent person".
That's not really fair though, I don't want to insult Frozen as that's a cheap way to conduct a debate. With that said I'm as genuinely confused about his position as you are. It just doesn't make sense, and you don't need to know Jung to come to that conclusion.

I think I participated in a lot of these "should we listen to bands with bad people" discussions over the years and many times I think I was shooting from the hip and just reacting impulsively rather than really thinking it through to the deeper levels. My politics are still left-wing, anti-war, anti-fascist, etc, but at the end of the day we don't change anything by listening or not listening to various artists.

Much of the issues I had with previous discussions was that people would say "separate the art from the artist," but then go on to essentially inch toward defending abhorrent views or fascist politics, a smokescreen of sorts. I never liked that and it probably made some of my arguments more one-dimensional than they could've been.

I think when you get too deep into going over every facet of politics or moral deeds for artists, it does start to turn into something that's reductive and useless. We saw that with the 2010s MeToo stuff and the general internet activism going on in that time - at first, I figured not listening to Inquisition or a Louis CK album was some sort of first timid step toward a world where art could be used to lift up better people and make a culture of inclusivity or something, but the two don't have really anything to do with one another. Consuming art isn't activism. You have to actually be out there doing the work to really change stuff.

The impulse is a good one - we want to cut out the bad actors and uplift those who try and make positive change instead. But then you get further and further down the line and even storied bands like Pantera or Mayhem have seedy stuff going on. At some point I think you would just be cutting yourself off from the larger artistic world. So many great artists have done terrible stuff, going right up to directors of famous movies and musicians who are essentially carved in stone in the lexicon. It's admirable to want to support the good folks - I love it when an artist has great politics or really insightful views. But it's just not realistic that good people = good art and vice versa.

With black metal I was always iffy of the segments of it that were full of characters with edgy right-wing stuff, whether that was for shock value or if they really believed it. But I found it was starting to limit my understanding of art as a whole to keep shunning large swathes of it just on a "maybe" that these were real-deal bad guys who it was actively damaging to support. I wanted to know the deal and see what was out there, so I had to try and broaden my mindset.

All of this to say I always found Varg a clown and never had an interest listening to his stuff - I think I heard a Burzum track at 16 before I gave a fuck about politics or anything, and I like the Mayhem debut, but that's it... but at the end of the day there's no way to tie listening to his band into supporting his insane world view.

I don't care to get into politics talk here at length anymore, but eh thought I'd at least say this.

A lot of good points here, and I touched on this in my first post. Everyone has that line they draw where the views of the artist becomes unacceptable. I always wonder though, if one refuses to listen to Burzum because of Varg's views, do they also do the same research on every writer, director, and actor in every show and movie they watch? If not, why not? Why is the line different due to the media type?
I have to admit, some of this to me just seems like people jumping on a bandwagon.

For me personally it's easy to separate Varg's views from Burzum, I can't understand the lyrics, have never looked them up, and my understanding is they're not related to his views anyway. Now, something like Absurd or Skrewdriver for example for me, are a different story. They are up front about their views and it shows in the lyrics, and I care to listen to that about as much as I care to watch a "documentary" about how ayrans are the master race.
With that said, I generally also don't care to listen to music about fucking corpses or cumming blood and shit like that either so...

I'll also add that this isn't something I've really thought about a lot since I'm not a real Burzum fan anyway.

Yeah this is really where I'd draw a line too - even if you cut out holier than thou reasons, it's just like why would you listen to/watch something like that beyond educational curiosities or some other similar purpose? Some things you just don't want to partake in and that's all it needs to come down to.

Exactly, and for educational curiosities I'd probably just read a summary online or something lol.

I agree on bands that push totalitarian ideologies in the music. Rather than making music while being a shitheel. Though I have listened to black metal that I have no idea what the lyrics were so it my have been snuck past me.

I've never been much of a Burzum fan. It's more atmosphere than songs -- and while that can be said for many BM classics and something a lot of folks praise Burzum for - the scales were tipped too far in favor of the former, IMO. With this said, I dont find myself reaching for his music, ever. However, if I did like it and want to listen, I'd probably not. (As an aside, in hindsight it was not a shock to learn that the guy who created those early albums, replete with those truly 'unholy', deranged screams, could commit murder.)

Similarly, I will never again buy -- or even stream -- any Iced Earth material. I refuse to put a penny in the pocket of someone who was an accessory to an insurrection. Whether, or not, Schaffer was just 'duped' by the charlatan and the alt media's propaganda is irrelevant. He's proven to be a threat to freedom loving people everywhere and I will not subsidize such behavior.

It's always fun when academic theory is applied to metal music.

But personally, when it comes to black metal produced by dickheads, I'm more of a 'Death of the Author' guy.

I understand you man, my country is going through a similar political situation that you guys lived a couple of years ago. Sadly, both in the United States and in Argentina, both guys have a couple of million followers. I don't know how we must deal with that. Fuck Iced Earth.

Varg doesn't hide his views either though, even if he didn't make them a focus of Burzum. He would bring them up in interviews, his blogs / vlogs, etc. So to me, when someone is that blatant about them, it doesn't matter to me if the medium I'm interacting with is explicit about their ideology the way Absurd or Skrewdriver is. If it was a "hidden" thing that he never brought up, I'd feel differently.

I don't always look up every actor, director, author, etc. I engage with, but I will for many of them, particularly if they do or mention something sketchy and will make my decisions on what I'm willing to support based on what I uncover. It's just much more frequently an issue in (black) metal, at least when it comes to having far-right / fascist / totalitarian leanings.

Well sure, that's why I always found Varg to be a complete piece of shit and was disinterested in checking his work out, since I'd only really ever known of him after those things.

Yeah, my point was meant to be building on your comment. Not accusatory or anything.

I guess my concern if I really think about it is that I want to put a good faith effort into being aware of what I consume and like, so that if I mention something I like to someone I don’t know, particularly someone who isn’t into what I’m into (because most of my friends aren’t into metal or other things I’m into), they don’t Google it and find out within five minutes that they have sketchy ties and then have to wonder if I’m a neo-Nazi. I’m lucky in that most of the bands I gravitate to avoid some of the other more unsavory tropes of metal (and if they don’t, I just don’t have their shirts or don’t mention them to people who I already know don’t get it), but I would not want to wear a Burzum shirt for example around a friend of a friend and then have them read Varg’s wiki when they get home and wonder about me.

And sorry, but if you wear merch for Burzum, Absurd, Nokturnal Mortum, Drudkh, etc., you can’t be surprised if people don’t want to interact with you or treat you like you’re sketchy.

It's probably a matter of what information is readily available. In the age of internet, it's pretty much impossible to start getting into Burzum and not stumble upon information about all of the crap he's connected to regardless of whether it was actively sought.
I don't think many people would find the idea of extensive research for every piece of media - before watching/listening to/whatever - appealing.

I'm realizing more and more that the only people who do this kind of search for information about the artists they listen to are the metalheads, the latin rapper Arcangel beat his wife in 2019 and was arrested for it, he is still one of the most important and listened to urban artists in the world with millions of weekly listens, and most of his fans don't know he did this, and many others don't care. It's funny how there is a lot of talk about how the metal scene is full of bad people but many of the more mainstream artists have dozens of crimes behind them and their fanbase just doesn't care or don't know despite living in the information age. The only difference is that they have the power of money and marketing to hide their shady stuff.

I don't sit around deeply contemplating what I want to listen to. It's just competing urges that result in eventually clicking play on something. If I've made a connection in my head between a piece of music and a total jackass, I'm probably going to want to listen to it less, not out of some active moral decision but because somewhere in my ambiguous memory sphere between compelling melodies and kickass rhythms rests a big gaping butthole.

I mean I do make a moral decision to not pursue nsbm and shit like that today. It's really easy. I can buy 100 albums a year and not hear half of the good new releases, so passing over controversial labels and artists I already know are sketchy doesn't generate any additional fear of missing out. If I get a nostalgic inkling for some Peste Noire or Nokturnal Mortum that trumps my desire to listen to something else, I'm going to fire it up and not really care, but they're just less likely to pass that gut check and be the thing I want to listen to the most in the first place due to the negative association.

Yeah, it's a lot easier to overlook someone who has deplorable views if they aren't up-front about them or there isn't much discourse or information available. I don't necessarily actively investigate everyone I listen to, because the reality is it's just not practical.

I'm not going to pillory someone who genuinely doesn't know, since that's not fair to them. There are a lot of people who are huge fans of massive media properties whose creators are scumbags and actively harmful to others, yet are simply unaware of the controversies around them, so some random musician's beliefs are absolutely not something I expect to be common knowledge. But if someone knows and just chooses to ignore it, I have a hard time overlooking it.

Agree on all points in these two posts



There is a strange cohort of people online who spend time searching out 'problematic' music who seem to focus solely on rock and metal bands, and who blatantly ignore or simply don't care about acts committed by pop / hip-hop / r&b acts. I dont like the term virtue signaling because clowns on the far right use it as a beating stick, but in this instance a lot of terminally online people use rock and metal bands to display their virtues, but wouldn't comment at all on someone like Arcangel as you mentioned, as they may actually listen to him. Easy to pick on small obscure shitty bm bands who no one in your online sphere listens to, rather than your own artists you like.

So between that, and the fact that I think a lot of metal fans, like the majority on this site, are genuinely conscious about this stuff means it gets discussed quite a bit. You've also got the NSBM twats who genuinely give metal a bad name, and its good to rally against that as well.

No not really seems like proto-emo for me on the vocals, when they were mysterious a lot was left up to the imagination, I think that’s the part I liked the most, but Burzum is good, it’s just there is no other way to take his unique vocal approach as youth or emo, teen angst, I found it was a band I couldn’t relate to as I got older that as a kid I could. I think his political ideas are more centered around what’s good for “sun worship” more so than what’s good for Europe which is why he so minimalistically single’s out only certain groups as being the cause of all its ills as a “tip of the iceberg”,is Varg not also a person who capitalizes from those ills but those type want the jews cut, more so than that it being what’s good for Europe or whatever. It’s an easy mistake to make maybe he means well, the guy talks to much about problems without any solutions, it’s like yes, ok, something wrong, but yet no way to fix it, or worse yet, let civilization collapse... as in Vargs case, he offers no authentic solutions you blames Jews when you could get rid of them and the problem would actually still be there. He constantly bitching and the only “solutions” he has wouldn’t solve anything if not exacerbate problems or make things worse, too much bitching, too little solutions

I think one thing that gets missed is that there's also a difference between Burzum, which as a project is mostly focused on nature and paganism, and NSBM where the lyrical content actively pushes the shit that the members believe. IMO it ain't too hard to still appreciate Burzum because the music is, at least nominally, separate from Varg's views.

That said, art is complicated, and so is the appreciation of it. I absolutely believe it's possible to appreciate and even enjoy art that comes from a place that you fundamentally oppose. You can resonate with the emotion of a song without endorsing the message itself, or (for some people) just tune it out entirely. Calling a spade a spade I think there are a LOT of NSBM bands that put out legitimately great music, and there can be a perverse fascination with art that stems from the grotesque. It's why people collect murderabilia and watch documentaries on serial killers.

But it's all down to personal tastes and what an individual thinks is in good taste. I sure as fuck won't be sending any of those people money, I'm not buying merch or concert tickets, but I'll listen.

I'm in agreement with the idea that everyone's going to have their own threshold of what they'll tolerate as far as listening to music made by terrible/objectionable people. Like many folks here I'm sure, a big red line for me that I won't cross is listening to/supporting any NSBM act. Fuck that noise. Below that point it definitely gets a bit muddy--I used to listen to Burzum, owned a few CDs, but I've since sold them off and honestly have no inclination to listen to Varg's stuff anymore. For me it's the fact that he's still an open white supremacist (and seems to have gotten worse since I first listened to his music in the late 00's), and while Burzum's music doesn't really have any direct NSBM content, it definitely seems to sit comfortably alongside his weird Europagan ramblings and racist tabletop RPG nonsense.

Similar situation with Drudkh, although in that case the NSBM ties appear (from what I understand) to be more direct, not to mention the references to far right Ukrainian politics in the lyrics/booklets. It sucks because they used to be one of my favorite atmospheric black metal acts, but like with Burzum I really just can't find the motivation to listen to them anymore, much less support them.

This makes absolute sense and I think it'd be wrong of anyone to try and convince you otherwise.

Music especially is a highly personal thing and it's all about how it makes you feel, which means to me that if a given artist puts bad feelings you regardless of what the reason is... you shouldn't feel pressured to listen. Like we could debate the merits of the music itself and the quality of it in the abstract but that's kinda irrelevant if there's something attached to it that you just can't get past.

Hell I'd be willing to be a LOT of us have certain bands/albums we can't listen to because they connect to negative memories, bad relationships, shit like that. I don't see why this is any different.

Yeah, Drudkh are one of the very few bands that I miss listening. Unlike Burzum, they have a few superb albums I probably haven't listened to in ages because of the obvious NS message (Blood in Our Wells, etc).

The only bands that I have listened to that have racist lyrics were Arghoslent and Grand Belial's Key, both are good bands in their respective styles and both of their lyrics suck no question about that. But I would never pay a dime to any of the member's bands.

Not a huge fan but sometimes I do. And Belus is underrated.

Short answer to OP: yes.

It was closer to a Nazi bar 20 years ago than it is now. But colin is closer to the truth.

Frank Zappa — 'A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.'

Burzum is great! The 90's stuff is the most important Black Metal stuff there is and always will be. Easily in top 10.

Also Varg has got some interesting point of views.

Don't be a coward, write them here so we can all see them.

That's kind of where I'm at. I listen to the music, but I do not buy merch of a band like Burzum. On the other hand, I can't enjoy the music of NSBM bands with the themes right there, directly in the music.

Like others stated before, just listening to the music of Burzum doesn't have much of an impact. But I would not wear patches or t-shirts of Burzum, as I find that it is hard, by that point, to separate Varg from Burzum. When I see people wearing his merch, I always wonder if they are people who support his views or not.

Yeah but this is where it gets a bit weird - listening to the music but not buying merch isn't really doing anything. I can't tell if people think that is a meaningful distinction or if they're just gut-reacting by going "I don't want to participate in that," the latter of which I think is the only thing that really matters in the end. But it doesn't really change anything if you're just not buying stuff from him.

If it's some sort of mass organized boycott I can see it working, but I just think making consumerism your activism is just a step above doing nothing.

Here, you're assuming that there is some kind of deep activism related motivation behind my behavior. If I don't buy Burzum merch, it's because I personnally am against supporting, even in the slightest, someone who thinks and acts like Varg Vikernes does. Not because I believe that my actions alone will make a significant difference, but because of my own personnal morals and ethics. I take similar course of actions in many different littles ways in life, as to try and behave in a way that is most aligned as possible with my personnal views on many things. For instance, I try to be as green as possible, I try to buy stuff with less packaging, and I try to buy local and from smaller businesses whenever possible. I don't think my actions individually will destroy Amazon and Walmart, but they align better with my views, and giving my money to people I actually think deserve to be supported, is a way to have a real positive impact as well.

Sidenote, if a lot of people take these kind of individual actions, it sums up to a much greater impact. This is namely how vegan options in restaurants, grocery stores, etc., have become more and more common over time. In this way, if a lot of people are not giving money and refusing to promote bands like Burzum by not wearing the band's merch, it will have some kind of impact. That's less revenue for Varg (and NSBM bands in general), and it's less exposure for the band, less promotion.

But all this considered, the main motivation behind my choices is, like you said a "I don't want to participate in that" logic. Not because I think it will sink bands like Burzum, Drudkh, Hate Forest, Nokturnal Mortum or Peste Noire, but because I prefer to act in concordance with my beliefs and worldviews as much as possible.

Fair enough. I didn't intend to try and start shit. I just think a lot these days about what exactly the purpose is and what is being done with certain habits like this in this very politicized world. I think it's worth examining what is really being affected, and on the other hand, admitting when you just don't want to participate in shit because it's gross or awful to you. There was always too much nonsense talk about hypocrisy in these discussions.

I'm not really a Burzum listener but it does make some sense to me that buying merch is seen as a higher and more objectionable degree of support than just listening. Wearing a band's shirt is a publicly visible display of having financially supported a band, and therefore could be read as an endorsement of what the band stands for. I think Burzum specifically has been normalized to some extent by their importance to the scene, but I definitely wouldn't want to wear any band's shirt to a show just for people to assume I'm okay with nazi shit and judging me accordingly.

It's interesting to me how many people think Burzum is an exception or sanitized because the band's songs aren't explicitly Nazi or white supremacist or because Burzum is an early band or whatever. Since Varg himself is so outspokenly Nazi through so many outlets, it seems impossible to me to claim to be both a fan of Burzum (particularly if you're such a fan that you're wearing Burzum merch) and be upset or confused if people then assume you have far right sympathies.

Why? I listen to Burzum, not Varg.
Is it possible to enjoy Hitler's paintings without being labelled as nazi?

It's a shame to listen to Burzum, his theories about aliens living on Sirius are so stupid…..

Shame on you….

according to Freud, anyone who listens to a fool learns to limp

This is satire, right? Burzum = Varg. Adolf = Hitler.

I used to listen to Burzum years and years ago, but then I found out that Varg is a piece of shit, so I can't listen to Burzum any more. Kinda soured the whole thing for me - even if the music itself isn't batshit like Varg, it's tainted by the connection. Yes, it's a non-musical reason to not listen to certain music, but that reason is just as valid.

And I think it's a mistake to be all like "oh, you won't listen to Burzum, but you'll listen to [other dodgy musician]". Everyone's got their own standards, everything's judged on its own merits, and ultimately people are inconsistent in general - it's to be expected that there are going to be exceptions, differing reasons, etc. It's not the "gotcha" question people think it is.

Burzum black metal is S tier. The ambient stuff is not my cup of tea.
Nothing about Varg bothers me.