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| Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=118697 |
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| Author: | SableyeDude123 [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
Do you. |
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| Author: | RapeTheDead [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
What are "classical elements"? Do you mean sympho-black a la Emperor and Obtained Enslavement? Are you referring to a linear sense of song structure and pacing? I would give some examples to back this thread up, otherwise it's way too vague and gonna get locked quick. Also, what is your opinion on the matter? Can't expect others to share if you don't yourself. |
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| Author: | Diamhea [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
SableyeDude123 wrote: Do you. Not sure... I can't muster the ability to give a shit since you clearly don't. |
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| Author: | ~Guest 298739 [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
Straight up black metal without any kind of hybrid involving classically influenced stuff doesn't really have any elements except for those that belong to rock but on steroids and run through more distortion |
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| Author: | jimbies [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
SableyeDude123 wrote: Do you. Do you? |
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| Author: | ~Guest 285196 [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
Too bad there's not much content in this thread, because it's a question I've encountered before, and I do not really know what to make of it. Take an arch-typical song like Transilvanian Hunger. Obviously it is very far removed from rock music, but does it resemble classical music in its structure? I don't know. I've heard that some black metal is similar to electronic music in the structure. Long songs which cycles through different themes in a somewhat linear way, straying far away from verse-chorus styles. |
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| Author: | AcidWorm [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
What a lazy original post. What do you even define as classical elements? |
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| Author: | Mango_Sauce [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
Maybe the scope of this thread is narrower than we are thinking. After all, he spelled classical with a capital C. |
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| Author: | ~Guest 277521 [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
Let's try to save the thread perhaps? I would say that most black metal only has classical elements as much as a lot of other music, in the use of functional harmony which really was established by Bach. However, the aspect that black metal is much closer to classical music is quite absurd to me. I see very few similarities except for some bands like Emperor that use some more interesting harmonic sequences and such. But even must symphonic black metal is written so poorly when it comes to the classical tradition that I wouldn't say black metal is closer to classical |
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| Author: | Opus [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
raumr wrote: Take an arch-typical song like Transilvanian Hunger. Obviously it is very far removed from rock music, but does it resemble classical music in its structure? I don't know. I've heard that some black metal is similar to electronic music in the structure. Long songs which cycles through different themes in a somewhat linear way, straying far away from verse-chorus styles. What makes you say it's "very far removed from rock music"? First part is riffs in Am - tonic and dominant - , second part riff in Am with tritone, bridge in Em. Structure is A B A B C A B A. Doesnt get more "pop structure" than that. |
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| Author: | Sepulchrave [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
No, sorry. Any classically-trained musician would laugh at you if you seriously think Burzum or Darkthrone were influenced by classical music, in any way. Just because it's moody and melancholy doesn't make it classical. There are exceptions, of course, such as Obsequiae, who genuinely seem to give a shit about secular music of the High Middle Ages, and recreating it, albeit in a rather polished and stylised manner. But they are few, and I don't know enough progressive black metal anyway. |
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| Author: | Necrobiotik [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
SableyeDude123 wrote: Do you. WTF ? |
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| Author: | Wilytank [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
I was actually thinking about Gris's Il était une forêt... as an example where classical influences might seem more apparent. I mean there is one whole ten minute track that's entirely acoustic, but tracks like "Cicatrice" and "Veux-tu danser?" also have this sort of neoclassical elements not just in the instrumentation but in the songwriting as well. |
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| Author: | PvtNinjer [ Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
Like someone earlier said, some black metal is influenced by early electronic, like I'm fairly certain kraftwerk was a big influence on burzum. Less in the tone and melody, obviously, and more in the songwriting philosophy. |
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| Author: | ~Guest 277521 [ Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
Wilytank wrote: I was actually thinking about Gris's Il était une forêt... as an example where classical influences might seem more apparent. I mean there is one whole ten minute track that's entirely acoustic, but tracks like "Cicatrice" and "Veux-tu danser?" also have this sort of neoclassical elements not just in the instrumentation but in the songwriting as well. This is an example of what I meant... The album uses some acoustic instruments (mainly samples) to create their idea of what classical music is, but it has little to no basis when it comes to compositional technique towards classical music. Acoustic instruments != classical music |
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| Author: | Kveldulfr [ Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
Symphonic stuff is obvious, like late Emperor or Arcturus. Traditional black metal,? Not that much, excepting Gorgoroth and more melodic stuff like Dissection, Dawn and some of the folk stuff like Windir, early Ulver and related things. |
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| Author: | tomcat_ha [ Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
its pretty apparent that bands like sacramentum and dissection take things from like 19th century guitar music. Pretty sure they were all kids who had guitar lessons. Darkthrone and such take much more from folk. As on the electronic influence thats not really the case. Instead its much more likely (just look at the first song on deathcrush) that they were taking stuff from krautrock. I want to go as far and say that Transilvanian hunger is as close to black metal's hallogallo as it gets. |
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| Author: | Turner [ Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
Why is it that people always try and beat black metal up to the point where it's something more than it actually is? This is basically "what occult magicks did Dead really discover?" dressed up. As said above, some of them no doubt had guitar lessons and learnt their modes & scales. I'm sure a very small number of them were really into classical. The rest just comes as any classical elements do in music - the natural progression of things and the fact that there are really only 12 individual notes in the western scale etc. Judas Priest has infinitely more "classical elements" than 99% of bm, but for obvious reasons no one bangs on about it. |
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| Author: | Crescent_Moon [ Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
If you mean early black metal - in my opinion Dark Medieval Times and Under The Sign of Hell shows a lot of classical music influence to Satyr and Infernus. Sympho black metal - a lot of strong influence in the albums of Aeternus, Limbonic Art, Mephistopheles, Obtained Enslavement and Old Man's Child. |
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| Author: | horntooth [ Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
I'm an ignoramus concerning musical theory, although I know there are people talking about similarities between classical music and metal in general: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_met ... ical_music Concerning the 2WBM sound, it doesn't seem to me that there is similarities to classical music, but I would say there are similarities to folk music, being that lute type instruments are often played by using tremolo picking, although usually it's patterns similar to heavy, thrash and death metal, it being just part of the riff. You can find this is Western European lute playing, Russian balalaika music, Persian and Arabic traditional music, here and there in Greek bouzouki music, but you can also find longer continuous tremolo riffs present in tamburitza playing and riffs sounding very similar to the black metal riffs in Chinese pipa music. |
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| Author: | Unity [ Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
I remember reading an interview with Varg where he said that he wrote the Fallen album like it was classical music. |
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| Author: | ~Guest 285196 [ Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
I think you are mis-remembering. It was the press release for the album, and he was talking about the mastering of the album. Quote: The sound is more dynamic – we mastered the album as if it was classical music – and I was more experimental than I was on "Belus" in all respects http://www.burzum.org/eng/discography/o ... llen.shtml |
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| Author: | Temple Of Blood [ Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
No. 99.9% of BM musicians couldn't play a single classical piece to save their lives. |
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| Author: | Unity [ Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
raumr wrote: I think you are mis-remembering. It was the press release for the album, and he was talking about the mastering of the album. Quote: The sound is more dynamic – we mastered the album as if it was classical music – and I was more experimental than I was on "Belus" in all respects http://www.burzum.org/eng/discography/o ... llen.shtml Thanks, I stand corrected, sir! 
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| Author: | ~Guest 277521 [ Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
horntooth wrote: I'm an ignoramus concerning musical theory, although I know there are people talking about similarities between classical music and metal in general: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_met ... ical_music Concerning the 2WBM sound, it doesn't seem to me that there is similarities to classical music, but I would say there are similarities to folk music, being that lute type instruments are often played by using tremolo picking, although usually it's patterns similar to heavy, thrash and death metal, it being just part of the riff. You can find this is Western European lute playing, Russian balalaika music, Persian and Arabic traditional music, here and there in Greek bouzouki music, but you can also find longer continuous tremolo riffs present in tamburitza playing and riffs sounding very similar to the black metal riffs in Chinese pipa music. This is why you don't really use Wiki when doing serious research on any subject. The writing about the similarities is dubious at best and ridiculous at worst. Of course there are some similar traits especially when it comes to the harmony in the Baroque era, but most popular music has some similarities with some aspects of art music from the past. Trying to shoehorn it as really close to art music mainly shows people's misconception about art music. It's not because a few musicians said they listened to some classical music that makes BM super close to classical. A lot of them have listened and been influenced by normal pop, yet you won't ever hear a BM musician claiming it's so close to pop. This is really just BM kiddies wanting to get some of the prestige from art music. |
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| Author: | Smitty [ Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
Listen to Xanthochroid - Of Erthe and Axen Act I and the question may be answered. Although I think this is more classical with black metal elements. An absolutely stunning classical/BM masterpiece. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0o3Qg_aerw |
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| Author: | _flow [ Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
As someone largely unfamiliar with black metal, I wonder if there's an unifying technical definition at all. As far as I understand, it started as a sort of rebellion to "classic" song structure, with disregard for melody and an emphasis on dissonance (but is it also atonal?). Later on, symphonic black metal seems to have departed 180 degrees from that concept, seeking the closest proximity with classical Western music - hence I suppose the OP's question. I'm more intrigued by the "classical" Middle-Eastern influences in metal: most obviously in Melechesh, in Rotting Christ, but also as a persistent, almost founding element for a variety of metal bands - Bolt Thrower for example. |
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| Author: | Omni [ Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
You can add classical elements to black metal, but black metal doesn't have a strong relationship with classical music under normal circumstances, at least not any more than most other types of music being played today. |
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| Author: | ~Guest 298739 [ Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say pure black metal music has 0 classical influence and I'd be surprised if there was an overwhelming argument against that |
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| Author: | Zodijackyl [ Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Do you think Black Metal has Classical Elements |
This thread is old, and not a very good discussion either. |
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