http://loudwire.com/marduk-show-cancele ... ards-band/

This is concerning to me, free speech invading metal, especially when it hurts a band that rightfully isn't even nazi related. How long before they target misogynistic lyrics or even violent lyrics in general? I find it funny how much we've regressed after all the scrutiny Cannibal Corpse and Deicide faced 25 years ago, and now we're back to it in the supposed free speech country

Going by that article, it's not a free speech issue, but an issue of a weak police. Here's why:

A group commented on the band, which they may do according to free speech.
That group may have planned to protest, which they also may do according to free speech.
The police or the venue deciding that it may be good to cancel because of a risk of protests is an issue of lacking in security competence in the context of protests, which are not themselves activities infringing on free speech but rather exercising free speech.

A functioning society with free speech allows both the concert and the protest, and lets the security, such as police, handle any risks of criminal activity connected to the concert, protest or anything else without cancelling neither the concert or protest. Just like in any other area of society where legal activities have a risk of turning illegal to some degree. Don't blame critical people or protestors for the police suggesting to cancel a concert due to the possiblity of protestors, no matter how wrong the critics or protestors may be.

This guy gets it! Man, I'm so happy I got to see Marduk in concert five years ago, before society degenerated into this current whinocracy.

It's not about the police in our case, the part that's troubling is that a group of halfwits were able to successfully shut down a metal concert because they wanted to censor people from hearing it. I'm not going to argue what the police should or shouldn't have done, it's the fact it happened at all

You're missing the point. They critical people didn't shut it down. That's not fact, as you call it. Fact is that the people of the venue did shut it down, and the police were in favour of shutting it down. All based on a percieved risk of problems had a protest occured, even though protests are as allowed according to free speech as concerts, lyrics, etc. are.

Like I said, don't blame critical people or protestors for the venue/police prefering to not have the concert if it's gonna be protested.

Kind of, but if you are holding a peaceful protest that does not look like it will get out of hand, the police won't shut the event down. People now protest with the aim of getting events shut down and often either do get violent, or pretend like they are going to get violent in order to do so. There is a reason that me pretending to punch you in the face is considered assault and is a jailable offense. Attempting to give off the impression that a protest will be violence in hopes of having something shut down is very similar to assault, but on a grander scale and usually cannot be pinned down to one individual.

The police may have overreacted here, but I really don't think there is anyone to blame aside from the protestors.

No, you're not getting the point. Imagine I and a bunch of others call your job and accuse you of being a nazi until your boss caves into pressure and fires you. Compare that to you walking into work one day and your boss firing you because he looked at your facebook and saw something he didn't approve of. The very base of the argument is you got fired wrongfully. If anything in Marduk's case it's worse that PEOPLE, common civilians like ourselves got this show cancelled by whining. They complained, lost a band a bunch of money and made a whole bunch of fans miss a show, especially considering Marduk doesn't come here often. After their complaining they probably went home and turned on tv and microwaved themselves a dinner, oblivious to the consequences of their complaining. THAT, in my opinion, is far worse than what happened in the early 90s because we already expect the government to be against us. Now it's your unemployed neighbor that wants to tell you what to listen to

You really are missing Dembo's point. The people whined, which they have the right to do, and the venue/police are the ones who shut it down. Hell, if my years long saga of slap fighting with Wintersun has taught me anything it's that complaining about things isn't going to cost a band a dime. Maybe the people started the chain reaction but the pivotal link in the chain was the venue/security/police, who had two choices. They could risk the show going on and possibly needing to deal with protestors turning criminal, or they could shut the whole thing down and not worry about it. They chose the latter, just as well they could have chosen the former.

The point that you're missing is that, even in your hypothetical example of getting fired from a job, it's still the boss that fires you in both scenarios. The people themselves did not fire you, it was your boss giving you the termination papers regardless of the origin of the complaint.

No really, you're missing my point. My point that you're missing (see how obnoxious that is?) isn't an argument of politics. It's the POINT that we as metal and music fans in general don't want this to become a pattern and face censorship on any level. The UC Berkeley riots have been cited several times as a big reason the Marduk show was cancelled, the threat and fear of violent protests occurring. That is censorship, the same as any government agency doing it. The government's version is if you do that then we will take legal action. These protesters say if you let Marduk perform, we will riot. In case you need a refresher on the damage these idiots did to their own college

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/01/us/milo-y ... -berkeley/

“Based on the riots that occurred in Berkeley in regards to Milo Yiannopoulos speaking at the University, it is reasonable to believe that there would be a threat to public safety if these groups showed up to protest Marduk.”

Fuck off and don't associate this pathetic jerk with black metal.

To anyone concerned about the Marduk show, I suggest that rather than protest, you attend a show like this. The band are not nazis and you are not financially supporting a political agenda. Go to the show and talk to people. You'll meet an open and diverse group, and you'll be a better person for it. It's a black metal show, it's an unsafe space - instead of protesting, go to the bar and ask people about Nazism, and you won't be finding supporters as you might suspect from an outside glance. Give civility a shot before attacking based on outside observations.

Basically the arguments are:

Church13: It's the (potential) protestors' fault for complaining in the first place and setting the wheels in motion

Dembo: It's the police's fault for not having the competence to handle such a thing and running away

There, now nobody is missing anybody's points anymore. Let's work from here.

I'm really not even arguing who's fault it is necessarily as much as it being absurd a metal show got censored in 2017 because of nazi allegations and I opened this discussion for us to ponder the potential future backlash on us metal fans as a whole. Really that's all

Your saying this following quote of yours doesn't have the tone of accusing a particular group of being faulty:



?

There you are saying that they were the ones shutting down the concert, and that they are halfwits. But your not saying it's their fault, huh...?

Also there was quite recently a thread about the subject of protestors influence over concerts of bands with nazi accusations aimed at them, after a festival in Canada. So even your goal of us pondering those things would probably only result in alot of repetion from that thread.

Marduk? Not Nazi related? come ooooon.

Then go post in that one, please? And your shit eating grin can surely be wiped off because even my quote isn't about the protesters themselves as much as the fact that a metal concert got cancelled because a group of people don't like their ideologies that aren't even theirs. That should be a problem for metal fans as a whole because as I said, theoretically that opens the doors for other groups to do the same to other bands, not they will will actually do it, but the potential is there. Me calling them halfwits isn't assigning blame, they're just fucking morons. This isn't about assembling a lynch mob and giving the protesters a beating. That should about cover it, Captain Semantic

If you think bringing back a dead thread that recently covered the subject of this thread is a relevant suggestion, you have misunderstood again. Misunderstanding followed by insult is Youtube comment section level. Good pondering.

How about you who are so eager to ponder this subject merely two months after seven pages of pondering this subject was done on this place go and read that thread and see if there's any particular pondering missing that makes a new thread on the same subject motivated: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=116729

/ End of chat.

Never insulted you, no, sarcastic comments at best, maybe. I think you're so eager to find out who is understanding and misunderstanding and missing points that you've failed to formulate or add one of your own. I post, then you post attempting to put me in my place, ad nauseam.

I

Useful summary !

It's not an issue that can be reduced to 'his fault / their fault', however; the 'antifascist' mob making threats aren't simply exercising a right to an opinion, they're known for violently opposing anything that doesn't meet their party political views. University debates in Britain, political meetings in Europe, speeches in the USA, and now concerts by the 'spikes and panzer tanks' fetishists.

The anti- mob do have the right to their views, just as Marduk have a right to call their next record 'Hugo Boss Ist Krieg' or whatever. The former will see their right to a view expressed as suppression of another view, seeing that as right. Their politics don't allow for Marduk dressing up in spikes & leather and shouting about Der Ostfront - that's pretty much heresey to the average anti- type.

Closing down any event due to threats from those anti- groups is as sensible precaution as closing a church group that had received threats of martyrdom. It's not a particularly guts-and-glory way to deal with the situation, but it's better that then a group of kids get bricks and firebombs instead of an evening of slightly silly metal.

The police can't treat every issue like the last-stand-around-the-flag, they've a lot to do these days. Appreciate that fact, and understand that fighting with political extremists over a metal concert is a low priority.

Finally, would you really want a metal concert associated with armoured riot police, petrol bombs, and nutters in masks with black flags ? What kind of message would that send, and how quickly would states not ordinarily known for their social liberalism start looking harder at bands like Mayhem, Watain, Inquisition, (et. al.) and find something unpalatable that gets them closed down ?

The police not having the resources to deal with it is covered when I called them weak.

I'm reminded of what a in Sweden very famous retired professor of criminology and retired police have said. Something along the lines of that from a purely policiary perspective, it's preferable if everyone sits at home every night, since that would hugely lower the crime rates. He doesn't advocate it, but simply stating the quite obvious fact that an active society clearly heightens the risk of crime, which is what the police have as a job to deal with.

So to tie it to this event, I'd say it's fully expected that the police have the view that it's best to cancel the gig, just like in the interest of lowering the crime risk they would have the preference of all sorts of stuff being cancelled. But it's also a quite disturbing thing for the police to say about any legal activity. Think about artists who face way more serious threats, such as artist who draw cartoons of Muhammed. They get serious death threats by highly motivated lunatics, which causes those artists to get 24/7 police protection or body guards of some sort. Highly expensive considering it's one person being protected that much. But wouldn't it be very tasteless if the police were to advocate the passivity of such artists just because it would lower the risk of crime? Imagine a police force requesting artists to not draw things that may provoke criminals.

The police is there to protect law-abiding people, not to request them to avoid doing legal things because there might be trouble involved which would cause the police to have to do their job. Why not request clubs/bars to close, considering the amount of fights, over-serving of alcohol, hidden usage of illegal drugs, vandalism, threats, harassment, etc. happening in those places every night, especially on weekends? Clearly the police have higher priorities than to deal with drunken morons, so let's tell society not to open/visit bars. And sports events sometimes involve violence, vandalism, etc. But the police should not request those events to not take place either. And if events have a high-risk status, then the police presence is heightened, rather than the event is advocated by the police to be cancelled.

Oh well, all this will do is breed more hate to far-left idiots and give these metal bands more exposure, win-win situation really.

Just look how popular Milo is becoming

as Type O Negatives "We Hate Everyone" says....

That's one side of the coin. It also keeps the names of the protesting organizations being mentioned on a regular basis, which of course also counts as publicity and serves them just like the band names being mentioned alot serves the bands. If suggesting that everyone in the world who hear about this type of thing will develop a hate towards the protestors, then you're probably projecting your own reaction unto lots of people different from you. The more for example the word Antifa is mentioned, the higher number of people will look up what they are, some of whom will go to their site, some of whom will like what they read, some of whom will join. Just like what I think you had in mind regarding the bands gaining fans due to more people hearing about them.

One thing that's missing from the conversation here is that the venue administration got threats. As far as I understand the whole deal, it was this coupled with the police attitude on the chance of massive disruption - on the basis of previous stuff with that pathetic excuse for a human being Milo - that effectively brought down the deal.

This is the real point which shows just how bankrupt certain anti-fascist organizations can get. I'll draw a comparison between what I personally know about a similar form of anti-fascist activity. Years ago, one acquaintance actually infiltrated a neo-nazi group who hosted a European (not continent-wide, but wide enough in fact) get-together with some nifty bands performing. No go - cops showed up and busted the whole shit. Now, for anyone with their brain intact, it's clear that this was planned as a measure disrupting neo-nazi organizing on an international scale. The effectiveness can be debated, but it was what it was.

Contrast that with desperate lashing out without any point or purpose which is what happened here. People got threats and it's fair to assume violence was invoked as an entirely real possibility - also aimed at workers at the venue. No attempt was made to talk to people who attend shows like these. That's braindead anti-fascism. In all likelihood, these threats were not even a product of consensus among all the members of said organization. Of course, the anarcho-Rambo leadership will probably get people who are orbiting the organization rallied behind them, due to all sorts of factors. It's all a bit pathetic really.

This is the kind of stuff that's going to make bands not want to invest their time and resources coming over here to tour. Marduk are far from being nazis, I think all these dope smoking, no bathing neo-commies need to fuck off and either get a job or a life. Marduk are really cool guys and play some awesome metal, some of it is WWII related, but nazis? Come the fuck on!

That's what happens when people behave like sheeps. They get treated like sheeps by governments.
Let me live my life and decide what's right and wrong by myself, please. I don't need your supervision to think, thanks.

Here we go again...but...but...we must fight imaginary Nazis that pose a massive threat to humanity's future. Didn't you hear about all the Nazi shootings in Chicago last weekend or Nazis driving lorries into Christmas markets in Europe, etc? If Oakland has problems with Swedish black metal criminals or something, fair enough, otherwise, what's the point? No real problems there?

Calling Marduk nazi related is like calling Slayer nazi related, or Lemmy nazi related.

There's some videos on youtube that break it down why this specific instance is ridiculous above and beyond the mere fact of censorship.

The venue cancelled the event, not the police. Police get paid (overtime or special detail pay) to be there. Probably, in light of the threats from protesters and the group or groups involved would have cost the venue too much to protect it in the event something bad would happen. This extra cost to the venue would have cost them more money that it would have to cancel the show. Is that caving to the group making the threats? I think if you look at it from a business standpoint, it makes since to cancel and not risk damage to your venue, liability to your patrons, and liability to the business which would cost more than cancelling the show. I would imagine that after the police gave them a quote for the detail and the pay rate it wasn't that hard of a decision to make.

With that said, it's sad that this is happening regardless of the band involved. People have lost their minds and it shows every day on the news more and more. People have rights in this country regardless of whether someone agrees with them or not. People need to understand that violence will not change anything, it will only make things worse for their cause. I think once some of these "protesters" get a taste of the criminal justice system, their attitude might change...I hope anyway.

I still think chalking it up to a weak police force completely dismisses the problem. What if the city of Oakland had received hundreds of threats of violence in relation to this concert and had reason to believe that the lives of these concert-goers were at risk? Are they expected to send in SWAT teams to make sure that a band can play at a show without people dying? Obviously this is a hyperbolic scenario, but at what point do you recognize that it is illegal to threaten with acts of violence and that it is clearly the fault of the "protestors," not the police?

I really don't want to live in a country where the government has to waste money on extra security at events because there is an organized effort to shut down any kind of speech that people on the far left do not like.

And again, it may not be a free speech issue in that the government is not preventing Marduk from saying what they want, but it is a free speech issue in that violent threats are illegal. If these protests were peaceful, police wouldn't be necessary.

Ah, another glorious victory against hatred and bigotry!! Marduk are Nazis! I'm so glad we found out and managed to stop them recruiting to their Trump-PewDiePie army of Nazi Skinhead Death Squads.

Pretty sure their poutrage also centered around Incantation/Pillard.

Did the anti-Marduk people issue violent threats or was it the mere indication that they may organize a protest which caused the police and venue to want to cancel the show?

Hard to comment for someone not living in the United States because we just get second information, so from here it looks like it's a big issue if black metal bands tour, but David Duke book tours go on without incident.

I don't think David Duke tours the Bay Area particularly often, though I might be wrong. ANTIFA doesn't really operate outside of the Pacific Coast.

Which is even more fucking ridiculous, especially considering that Pillard left Incantation over 20 years ago. What's next, Iced Earth are KKK members because John Greely allegedly spouted some racist shit on stage in 1993? Next thing they'll be calling Immolation Nazis because of Bob Vigna's bald head.

Antifa are worldwide. It's just the most paranoid groups that come from the Pacific Coast and some parts of North America. And Germany.

Calling Antifa mere "protesters" is very charitable towards this group. These people have a history of violently rioting to advance their political goals. To frame this as a completely peaceful protest with little chance of turning into anything violent seems pretty ignorant to the big picture of what this group does. Violent rioting isn't covered by free speech, which is essentially the venue was likely trying to avoid.

The sad thing is is this is exactly how they operate.

Apparently they also take issue with the fact that Varg crashed on Morgan's couch back in the 90s.