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jugchord07
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Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:58 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:46 pm 
 

I have a fairly wide range of questions involving Mayhem and more specifically Dead's tie ins with the occult. This discussion doesn't have to be specifically based on their work while Dead was alive because I would also like to discuss some of the lyrics from their later albums as well. Essentially I'm just trying to see if anyone has really dug deep into the many mysteries that surrounded Dead. Due to his supposed introverted nature he was a hard individual to peg down and realize when he was simply bullshitting or exaggerating, but one thing was always consistent and that was his interest in the occult and the darker things life has to offer in general.

Excerpt from Mega-Mag interview with Dead conducted by Evil of Marduk
Quote:
What is your opinion on Satanism and Occultism?

- That's a great possession of mine! But to learn about Magic takes time. It‘s necessary to know a lot about it before trying some curse on the neighbors or something like that. It needs a lot of time. I don‘t have much time, especially right now. But I'm more into legends of Eastern Europe. They are not known of here, but people still believe in them. Each castle has got it's own history with a bloody past... that‘s what obsesses me most. The Balkan countries is where I want to live.


Does anyone know of any other interviews with Dead where he went into greater detail about this? Specifically the castles he mentions. He seemed to talk a lot about the mysteries of some of the castles but to my knowledge never went into specifics about the locations of the castles of the mystique that surrounded them. He seemed downright obsessive over these castles but never appeared to give much of any insight as to why or the history of them.

Some excerpts of an interview from Decibel with Dead:
Quote:
The title "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas" comes from a book about spirits. Spirits of meat and blood and forces a normal human brain cannot introduce. Apparently only one copy exists, however, I'm still trying to find another copy.


Quote:
LAST WORDS
Whom somebody finds "Satanic evil true nosferatu insaniacs of immortality" from the book "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas" and survives the contact with it, then please contact me so I can die in peace...


While this book is widely believed to just be a fictional piece of literature created in order to add some mystery and darkness to the album is there anything out there that discusses the possibility of this actually being a thing? It may seem all too far-fetched but with time literature of the past is just as capable of fading into obscurity and remaining only to be known within a small group of people as anything else that is elusive. While many people in the black metal movement back then seemed to exaggerate things to add to their credibility Dead always struck me as one of the few who was very serious when discussing things of the occult. He also stated in another interview that he was in search of a cult to join so he could actually gain an understanding of some scripts he had from various other languages. He was worried about doing something wrong and putting himself in danger.

And last but not least a lyric from "I Am Thy Labyrinth" on Wolf's Lair Abyss:
Quote:
The Jinnah have spoken
For I have read the signs
And I have solved the riddle
Of eternal life...


Does anyone know what the significance of this Jinnah character is? All I can really find is about an Indian Statesmen involving Pakistan but I figured it has to have another meaning beyond that. Any interviews with Dead that may have not surfaced on the world wide web would be greatly appreciated as well (although I have a feeling most of the info that would be useful is already available but hell it's worth a shot). I'll apologize in advance for what a jumbled mess of thoughts this is but after a few attempts this is the best format I could come up with.
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Apteronotus
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:24 pm 
 

Jinnah could be based off of the word Jinn, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jinn# ... _etymology

Quote:
Apparently only one copy exists, however, I'm still trying to find another copy.


Yeah, plenty of books fade into obscurity but quotes like this should really resolve the question. Isn't "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas" incorrect Latin anyways? Why would a book have incorrect Latin, the word nosferatu, and the "word" insaniacs other than it being something that exists only as a cool story in the mind of a metal musician?
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Rasc
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:37 pm 
 

Wasn't Dead schizophrenic? Maybe this whole DMDS thing was just something off his mind. His dreams about the Carpathians and his incorrect Latin may have overwhelmed whatever he actually read on occultism.

About Jinnah... this seems to be a surname of Gujarati origin. I don't think its etymology would come from the jinni, not directly at least seen all the mixed feelings they have over them, remembering Satan and his servants are jinni. Not a specialist in Islam though.

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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:49 pm 
 

Btw, Maniac' lyrics are totally nonsensical stuff, written under the effects of hard drugs. His latin is pretty terrible.
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jugchord07
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:04 pm 
 

With him stating he needed a cult to read some scripts he had in various languages I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard for him to make a few mistakes in writing this out on his own. Especially if it was something he'd merely heard of and not seen with his own eyes.
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DaBuddha
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:54 pm 
 

The "Dom" in the album title is an abbreviation of "Dominus" or "Domini" so as far as I know the title is correct Latin.

As for this supposed book by the same name, who knows. I'm sure a lot of ancient books have gone missing that may have existed at some point in time. If that's the case, perhaps this title is something he heard in passing or even thought up on his own and in his twisted mind thought it to be true. Who really knows anymore. He's not here to ask unfortunately and something tells me he wasn't all there anyway. With that said, it is a very interesting topic and getting knowledge of ancient Satanic cults or rituals is fascinating for me personally. The sheer amount of knowledge lost to us modern folk must be astounding.
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Turner
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:15 am 
 

if it even existed at all, that book could have been anything. people are writing that sort of occult shit for the "alternative" market every day. the chances of it being some lost ancient tome of wisdom (like so many teenage metalheads seem to want) are a lot smaller than the chances of it being some thing you can find for $2 at "alternative bookshops" that was limited to the one print run the author paid for himself.

as an aside, the mystification/glorification of dead and mayhem in general is really, really silly. we're talking essentially about a bunch of d&d dorks who were no different than any of us were in our late teens. pimply-faced, metalhead dorks. and that's it! dead was what, 19 when he died? what sort of profound philosophies/dark magicks do you think he managed to develop in that time? none. the guy was clearly just a crazy kid. there's nothing more to it, no underlying evil message, no satanic cults of lost wisdom, it's all bullshit. the only mystique is that which has been blown up in the last 20 years for the wonderment of teenagers who've just discovered black metal.

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marcomai
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:44 am 
 

Turner wrote:

as an aside, the mystification/glorification of dead and mayhem in general is really, really silly. we're talking essentially about a bunch of d&d dorks who were no different than any of us were in our late teens. pimply-faced, metalhead dorks. and that's it! dead was what, 19 when he died? what sort of profound philosophies/dark magicks do you think he managed to develop in that time? none. the guy was clearly just a crazy kid. there's nothing more to it, no underlying evil message, no satanic cults of lost wisdom, it's all bullshit. the only mystique is that which has been blown up in the last 20 years for the wonderment of teenagers who've just discovered black metal.



Yes, yes and a thousand time yes!

Put it this way, he had really naive, superficial opinions about how people should dress for metal. Don't waste time digging for something that isn't there.

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InnesI
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:10 am 
 

Turner wrote:
as an aside, the mystification/glorification of dead and mayhem in general is really, really silly. we're talking essentially about a bunch of d&d dorks who were no different than any of us were in our late teens. pimply-faced, metalhead dorks. and that's it! dead was what, 19 when he died? what sort of profound philosophies/dark magicks do you think he managed to develop in that time? none. the guy was clearly just a crazy kid. there's nothing more to it, no underlying evil message, no satanic cults of lost wisdom, it's all bullshit. the only mystique is that which has been blown up in the last 20 years for the wonderment of teenagers who've just discovered black metal.


I argue the same thing when people try to impose any kind of ideology, secret or thought through philosophy to their favorite musicians. Especially when it comes to black metal. I'm sure, actually I know, that there are knowledgeable people involved in the scene today but when we travel back in time for the second wave in Norway there is no way in hell those kids had anything resembling a mature outlook on life. Some have developed it since but as far as the actions they commited in the name of Satan or the lyrics they wrote it all came from, more or less, teenage minds. If you look at any teenager today you'd know that there couldnt be all that much substance behind any of this. Im sure some believed in it and some definitely wanted the world to know what they believed through dangerous actions but I seriously doubt they had much substance to what they were doing.

This is not to say that they had found something they could build upon and make into something more mature and thought through. I think most of us encounter interesting things as teens that we can use to build out worldview. Some have developed and interesting lyrical approach if nothing else (Ishahn comes to mind) but if you search to find deep occult secrets or hidden knowledge in the words or lyrics of a teenage Norwegian kid I think you'll look in vain.

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teh_Foxx0rz
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:32 pm 
 

While I don't think most of them were really all that into Satanism and all that in a serious sense, it does, however, feel equally silly to me to generalise and say that "no teenagers ever could be seriously into stuff like this especially not the crazy ones of the Norwegian second wave".

If there's one person who appeared to be apart from the rest of the "inner circle" psychologically and on his own "wavelength" then I'd say it would be Dead; sure he might have helped put on an image for the edgy appeal as much as the others, and no doubt there were exaggerations and false rumours, but there certainly seemed to be more going on in his head with it from what we heard than with the others. Not to say that he (or the book) held great secrets or knowledge now lost to the ages, but I don't think it's a huge stretch to say that he might have been taking it more seriously and looking into it more than the others. On top of his other psychological things (which I'd think would in fact lend into that interest).

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jugchord07
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:45 pm 
 

Exactly what I'm getting at. Deads brain seemed to function differently than anyone else's in the scene. General young teens who find their "clique" so to speak end up being superficial in order to fit in with their group. This doesn't necessarily mean he was just a stupid teen who had no connection with the occult. Keep in my mind I'm not one of those people who sits around cooking up conspiracies about every person involved in the second wave explosion. This is the ONLY person in that scene that has ever intrigued me enough to bother posting about. Ever since I first saw the infamous picture with the Dead corpsepaint that images has been seared onto my brain.

And Innes: I am in no way searching for any deep occult meaning in what he says. I'm simply seeing if he elaborated the things he said at any point. Trust me if anyone in that black metal wave had any real connection with something of this nature it would more than likely be the loner who
Nobody knew too well. Rather than being obsessed with hanging out with the other black metallers and partying Dead was known to enjoy being secluded from that a great deal of the time. That's how people get into things like this most commonly in my experience. Those who prefer to be alone have much more time alone with their mind and to study into things. Even if he was just a naive teen he was already obsessive over horror and metal music. I don't see why taking it a step further into realms even darker is so out of the question
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:56 pm 
 

jugchord07 wrote:
Excerpt from Mega-Mag interview with Dead conducted by Evil of Marduk
Quote:
What is your opinion on Satanism and Occultism?

- That's a great possession of mine! But to learn about Magic takes time. It‘s necessary to know a lot about it before trying some curse on the neighbors or something like that. It needs a lot of time. I don‘t have much time, especially right now. But I'm more into legends of Eastern Europe. They are not known of here, but people still believe in them. Each castle has got it's own history with a bloody past... that‘s what obsesses me most. The Balkan countries is where I want to live.


He's referring to Transylvania and Vlad Tepes. I've heard his interest in Transylvania mentioned several times, but never in more detail.

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jugchord07
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:04 pm 
 

DaBuddha wrote:
With that said, it is a very interesting topic and getting knowledge of ancient Satanic cults or rituals is fascinating for me personally. The sheer amount of knowledge lost to us modern folk must be astounding.


Indeed. It seems as time goes on we gain technology but lose knowledge on the more interesting things. I have a friend who studies fairly deep into things like this (not specifically related to satanism but otherworldly things in general). There are so many things that are looked upon as myths these days that actually have some truth to them. As with anything with truth involved lies get thrown into the mix with time. I in particular don't dabble in things like this but after a personal experience possibly involving this the other day my interest has been piqued. If anybody wants that story they can pm me for it but only if you have an open mind to these things. Thanks to everyone who has speculated with me on this thus far
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jugchord07
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:21 pm 
 

Turner wrote:
if it even existed at all, that book could have been anything. people are writing that sort of occult shit for the "alternative" market every day. the chances of it being some lost ancient tome of wisdom (like so many teenage metalheads seem to want) are a lot smaller than the chances of it being some thing you can find for $2 at "alternative bookshops" that was limited to the one print run the author paid for


I'd say it being a one print run you could find at a book store can be ruled out easily given that this book has no Internet presense whatsoever. It is either something Dead fabricated in his mind or actually a long lost book. I think any real middle ground to this can be ruled out immediately. I'd like to entertain that maybe Dead found what he believed to be the script he was looking for and committed suicide in hopes he would be led to the eternal life he was hoping for on another plane. Weirder things have happened. Not necessarily saying it's fact that he actually found what he was looking for. That being said the idea of him finding a script leading to his suicide is one that I find to be quite intriguing and I'm honestly surprised I'd never heard anyone else speculate this
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InnesI
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Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:19 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:08 pm 
 

teh_Foxx0rz wrote:
While I don't think most of them were really all that into Satanism and all that in a serious sense, it does, however, feel equally silly to me to generalise and say that "no teenagers ever could be seriously into stuff like this especially not the crazy ones of the Norwegian second wave".


No, I did not mean it like that. Teenagers can absolutely be seriously into complex stuff for sure. However I don't think they have a mature enough outlook to formulate and argue seriously for any ideas with the exception for repeating pre-existing arguments. I was one of those people myself. I was heavily into reading about certain occult movements - I was nerdy about it one could say and quite knowledgeable for my age I'd say - but it doesnt mean that I had formulated a true and deep philosophical ground I stood on. I think that it is actually impossible for most humans to do at such an early age. For one you obviously havent grown up yet either physically or mentally. And second, most of us in the west have so little experience outside of the safe little bubble we're in that that aspect clearly isn't there yet.

So the basic point was that if people look for a serious philosophical foundation in early black metal lyrics they won't find anything. And believe me, many have tried hard to find this kind of thing.

jugchord07 wrote:
I'd like to entertain that maybe Dead found what he believed to be the script he was looking for and committed suicide in hopes he would be led to the eternal life he was hoping for on another plane. Weirder things have happened.


People commit suicide for diverse reasons. Logical, ritual, religious etc. However from all accounts it seems like the people around Pelle Ohlin confirms that he was mentally unstable in some way and a very depressed person. I don't know this personally (obviously) but he really fits the mold for the typical suicidal person (he was no Yukio Mishima thats for sure). Perhaps he thought he'd found the secret of eternal life but I think it probably was an excuse rather than a reason for his suicide if anything. Everything we have left seems to indicate that he was mentally unstable - nothing else really.

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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:41 pm 
 

jugchord07 wrote:
It is either something Dead fabricated in his mind or actually a long lost book. I think any real middle ground to this can be ruled out immediately. I'd like to entertain that maybe Dead found what he believed to be the script he was looking for and committed suicide in hopes he would be led to the eternal life he was hoping for on another plane.


:lol:

jugchord07 wrote:
I'm honestly surprised I'd never heard anyone else speculate this


Why are you surprised? You think he may have become aware of a long lost book of which one copy exists, mentioned that in a magazine, then somehow found that book while living off of welfare in a cabin in Norway? If the book actually existed, wouldn't his bandmates have found it? You'd think they would've publicized it, considering they sent photos of his mutilated corpse to friends and weren't averse to using his death to promote themselves.

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Sick6Six
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:48 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
they sent photos of his mutilated corpse to friends and weren't averse to using his death to promote themselves.

There is no proof of this!
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BasqueStorm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:39 pm 
 

jugchord07 wrote:
Due to his supposed introverted nature he was a hard individual to peg down and realize when he was simply bullshitting or exaggerating, but one thing was always consistent and that was his interest in the occult and the darker things life has to offer in general.

Don't you think that, maybe, you're expecting way too much...

Turner wrote:
we're talking essentially about a bunch of d&d dorks who were no different than any of us were in our late teens. pimply-faced, metalhead dorks. and that's it! dead was what, 19 when he died? what sort of profound philosophies/dark magicks do you think he managed to develop in that time? none. the guy was clearly just a crazy kid. there's nothing more to it, no underlying evil message, no satanic cults of lost wisdom, it's all bullshit. the only mystique is that which has been blown up in the last 20 years for the wonderment of teenagers who've just discovered black metal.

... from a kid playing in the black metal scene?


Last edited by BasqueStorm on Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jugchord07
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:58 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
jugchord07 wrote:
It is either something Dead fabricated in his mind or actually a long lost book. I think any real middle ground to this can be ruled out immediately. I'd like to entertain that maybe Dead found what he believed to be the script he was looking for and committed suicide in hopes he would be led to the eternal life he was hoping for on another plane.


:lol:

jugchord07 wrote:
I'm honestly surprised I'd never heard anyone else speculate this


Why are you surprised? You think he may have become aware of a long lost book of which one copy exists, mentioned that in a magazine, then somehow found that book while living off of welfare in a cabin in Norway? If the book actually existed, wouldn't his bandmates have found it? You'd think they would've publicized it, considering they sent photos of his mutilated corpse to friends and weren't averse to using his death to promote themselves.


He left the lyrics to the song "Life Eternal" aside his suicide note. I don't think it is too far out their of an idea, but laugh all you want I couldn't care less. In addition black metal music had to have attracted many people who were actually involved in the occult that weren't just stupid teens. People seek out things relating to their interests correct? By a prominent figure mentioning this book so frequently if it were to be real it would have a strong probability of attracting someone who actually knows a bit on the subject, or (gasp!) even possibly knew what was written within it. But I digress apparently a 20+ year old "teenager" has no chance of actually dabbling in something of this nature.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:12 pm 
 

jugchord07 wrote:
I don't think it is too far out their of an idea, but laugh all you want I couldn't care less. In addition black metal music had to have attracted many people who were actually involved in the occult that weren't just stupid teens. People seek out things relating to their interests correct? By a prominent figure mentioning this book so frequently if it were to be real it would have a strong probability of attracting someone who actually knows a bit on the subject, or (gasp!) even possibly knew what was written within it. But I digress apparently a 20+ year old "teenager" has no chance of actually dabbling in something of this nature.


You are confusing the possibility that an individual of similar pursuits could have been involved with this, and the likelihood that he took his life in an occult ritual related to something that was mentioned once in an interview, and never again in the 20+ years since the legend of him has been publicized.

Younger black metallers at the time did become more involved with the occult. Their involvement tends to be fairly well known, as they were part of a culture that thrived off of publicizing this type of thing in relation to their music. Jon Nodtveidt's involvement in the MLO (Luciferian/Chaos-Gnostic group) were well known. He killed himself in his own apartment in a Satanic ritual, and without roommates discovering his body, despite incorrect reports that there was a copy of The Satanic Bible there, the identity of the grimoire (Liber Azerate) found there is well known. Shamaatae of Arckanum has also written on Chaos Gnosticism, and the nature of his occult involvement is well known with regard to the band. An example of an older person involved in the occult getting into black metal is Big Boss of Root: born 1952, formed Root in 1987, first album in 1990, founded the Czech branch of the Church of Satan in 1991.

So why wasn't Dead's involvement with this occultist tangent that you are pursuing better known? After all, his bandmates used his lyrics on these subjects, sent out photos and pieces of his dead body to those they considered the most dedicated, and used his death to promote the band. Euronymous infamous said that Dead killed himself because of posers in the scene. If there had been any evidence that his suicide was part of an occult ritual due to finding a lost tome, then the guys who lived with him probably would have found that book, or heard more about it.

The instance that you are arguing is pseudo-occultism, the most common form found in black metal. You have grasped a tangent and come to your own conclusion, and now defend the occult, hidden nature of this conclusion that you have come to. There is only a shred of a basis for this claim, but you act like an arcane seer and reject the general nature of the dismissals of your nonsense. You're more like a fortune teller arguing that your weather forecast could've been right.

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jugchord07
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:18 pm 
 

This is not about dismissal as I stated before. It is about trying to find a connection with a personal experience I had by gaining info that others may have on the subject. I've already determined in my experience that there is an extreme possibility that there was some truth to the things Dead spoke about. Not just specifically with the book mentioned previously. Laughing at my speculation is of no use to me therefore I will dismiss them. This is a subject that is currently of extreme importance to me at the moment and I am trying to move forward in my findings rather than backtrack and argue with people about what they think are silly assumption. Clearly it is in no way silly to me, if it is to you that's fine and I can respect that but it will not sway the dots that I am trying to connect
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jugchord07
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:31 pm 
 

Although these other circles you mentioned may be something I will look more deeply into so thank you for that. I've never been the biggest black metal fan (I love it but I've dug much deeper into death metal and frequently cite it as my favorite subgenre). These opinions I have have been formulated by me in the past few days of feverishly researching day and night. The fact that Dead had a brush with death in his youth (if this is in fact true) is interesting to me. Especially considering towards the end of his life he's been cited stating that he didn't belong on earth and there was another realm that was meant for him. As if it were somewhere he'd been before. I will stop with my nonsense though. My posts are strictly to keep the thread going in hopes that more people with insight will post
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Diamhea
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:59 pm 
 

I can actually contribute something here. Some time ago I was in correspondence with an individual who claims that there was more to the suicide note that Euronymous failed to share. This is the complete version:
Spoiler: show
dead wrote:
To Jinnah

Speaking from the tongue of an experienced simpleton who obviously would rather be an emasculated, infantile complain-ee. This note should be pretty easy to understand.

All the warnings from the black metal 101 courses over the years, since my first introduction to the, shall we say, ethics involved with independence and the embracement of your community has proven to be very true. I haven't felt the excitement of listening to as well as creating metal along with reading and writing for too many years now. I feel guilty beyond words about these things.

For example when we're back stage and the lights go out and the manic roar of the crowds begins., it doesn't affect me the way in which it did for Hellhammer and Venom, who seemed to love, relish in the the love and adoration from the crowd which is something I totally admire and envy. The fact is, I can't fool you, any one of you. It simply isn't fair to you or me. The worst crime I can think of would be to rip people off by faking it and pretending as if I'm having 100% fun. Sometimes I feel as if I should have a punch-in time clock before I huff the dead bird. I've tried everything within my power to appreciate it (and I do, Lucifer, believe me I do, but it's not enough). I appreciate the fact that I and we have affected and entertained a lot of metalheads. It must be one of those narcissists who only appreciate things when they're gone. I'm too sensitive. I need to be slightly numb in order to regain the enthusiasms I once had as a child.

On our last few shows (primarily Stockholm and Leipzig), I've had a much better appreciation for all the people I've known personally, and as fans of our music, but I still can't get over the frustration, the guilt and empathy I have for everyone. There's good in all of us and I think I simply love people too much, so much that it makes me feel too fucking sad. The sad little, sensitive, unappreciative, Capricorn, Jesus man. Why don't you just enjoy it? I don't know!

I have a tiny, passive aggressive guitarist who sweats ambition and empathy and a drummer who reminds me too much of what i used to be, full of hatred and animosity, playing football and enjoying life. And that terrifies me to the point to where I can barely function. I can't stand the thought of Mayhem becoming the miserable, self-destructive, experimental metal band fronted by a mediocre vocalist and drug addict who looks like the villain from Ghosts of Mars.

I have it good, very good, and I'm grateful, but since the age of seven, I've become hateful towards all humans in general. Only because it seems so easy to get the band notoriety. Only because I love and feel sorry for people too much I guess.

Thank you all from the pit of my burning, bleeding spleen for your letters and concern during the past years. I'm too much of an erratic, moody baby! I don't have the passion anymore, and so remember, it's better to burn out than to fade away.

Excuse all the blood.
Per Yngve Ohlin

Euronymous and Varg, I'll be at your alter.
Please keep going guys, for me.
For the band, which will be so much more popular once you spread my death photos around.

I LOVE YOU, I LOVE YOU!
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kalervon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 299
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:32 pm 
 

jugchord07 wrote:
Some excerpts of an interview from Decibel with Dead:
Quote:
...Spirits of meat and blood
Funny translation.. I'm pretty sure "flesh" was meant, not "meat".

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jugchord07
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:58 pm
Posts: 771
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:34 pm 
 

Diamhea wrote:
I can actually contribute something here. Some time ago I was in correspondence with an individual who claims that there was more to the suicide note that Euronymous failed to share. This is the complete version:
Spoiler: show
dead wrote:
To Jinnah

Speaking from the tongue of an experienced simpleton who obviously would rather be an emasculated, infantile complain-ee. This note should be pretty easy to understand.

All the warnings from the black metal 101 courses over the years, since my first introduction to the, shall we say, ethics involved with independence and the embracement of your community has proven to be very true. I haven't felt the excitement of listening to as well as creating metal along with reading and writing for too many years now. I feel guilty beyond words about these things.

For example when we're back stage and the lights go out and the manic roar of the crowds begins., it doesn't affect me the way in which it did for Hellhammer and Venom, who seemed to love, relish in the the love and adoration from the crowd which is something I totally admire and envy. The fact is, I can't fool you, any one of you. It simply isn't fair to you or me. The worst crime I can think of would be to rip people off by faking it and pretending as if I'm having 100% fun. Sometimes I feel as if I should have a punch-in time clock before I huff the dead bird. I've tried everything within my power to appreciate it (and I do, Lucifer, believe me I do, but it's not enough). I appreciate the fact that I and we have affected and entertained a lot of metalheads. It must be one of those narcissists who only appreciate things when they're gone. I'm too sensitive. I need to be slightly numb in order to regain the enthusiasms I once had as a child.

On our last few shows (primarily Stockholm and Leipzig), I've had a much better appreciation for all the people I've known personally, and as fans of our music, but I still can't get over the frustration, the guilt and empathy I have for everyone. There's good in all of us and I think I simply love people too much, so much that it makes me feel too fucking sad. The sad little, sensitive, unappreciative, Capricorn, Jesus man. Why don't you just enjoy it? I don't know!

I have a tiny, passive aggressive guitarist who sweats ambition and empathy and a drummer who reminds me too much of what i used to be, full of hatred and animosity, playing football and enjoying life. And that terrifies me to the point to where I can barely function. I can't stand the thought of Mayhem becoming the miserable, self-destructive, experimental metal band fronted by a mediocre vocalist and drug addict who looks like the villain from Ghosts of Mars.

I have it good, very good, and I'm grateful, but since the age of seven, I've become hateful towards all humans in general. Only because it seems so easy to get the band notoriety. Only because I love and feel sorry for people too much I guess.

Thank you all from the pit of my burning, bleeding spleen for your letters and concern during the past years. I'm too much of an erratic, moody baby! I don't have the passion anymore, and so remember, it's better to burn out than to fade away.

Excuse all the blood.
Per Yngve Ohlin

Euronymous and Varg, I'll be at your alter.
Please keep going guys, for me.
For the band, which will be so much more popular once you spread my death photos around.

I LOVE YOU, I LOVE YOU!


The line about the vocalist looking like the villain from Ghost of Mars has me cracking up haha
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Oxenkiller
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 1319
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:07 pm 
 

that "suicide note" posted above- is that real or is it someone's spoofed version? Just for shits n'grins, I looked it up and the version that has been circulating around the internet is completely different...who knows, either way he is gone, and I hope he rests in peace.

(This is just an excerpt)

"Excuse the blood, but I have slit my wrists and neck. It was the intention that I would die in the woods so that it would take a few days before I was possibly found. I belong in the woods and have always done so. No one will understand the reason for this anyway. To give some semblance of an explanation I'm not a human, this is just a dream and soon I will awake..."

Most everything I have read indicates that he committed suicide because he was depressed and lonely, nothing more. Of course the rest of the band (well, Euronymous anyway) had to sensationalize it to hype the band to new levels, but I honestly believe the reason had nothing to do with the occult, or the scene- he was just a f***ed up kid who was depressed and lonely. And no, I certainly don't claim to have known him in person or be able to judge his actions either way.

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uzilover
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:28 pm
Posts: 199
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:05 am 
 

The "suicide note" was a spoof of Kurt Cobain's and very well done. I got a good laugh out of that.

I'm surprised that no one who speaks Swedish has translated the interview with his brother from the "Blood, Fire, Death" book that came out a while back.

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BenjaminC81
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:17 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:24 am 
 

Diamhea wrote:
I can actually contribute something here. Some time ago I was in correspondence with an individual who claims that there was more to the suicide note that Euronymous failed to share. This is the complete version:
Spoiler: show
dead wrote:
To Jinnah

Speaking from the tongue of an experienced simpleton who obviously would rather be an emasculated, infantile complain-ee. This note should be pretty easy to understand.

All the warnings from the black metal 101 courses over the years, since my first introduction to the, shall we say, ethics involved with independence and the embracement of your community has proven to be very true. I haven't felt the excitement of listening to as well as creating metal along with reading and writing for too many years now. I feel guilty beyond words about these things.

For example when we're back stage and the lights go out and the manic roar of the crowds begins., it doesn't affect me the way in which it did for Hellhammer and Venom, who seemed to love, relish in the the love and adoration from the crowd which is something I totally admire and envy. The fact is, I can't fool you, any one of you. It simply isn't fair to you or me. The worst crime I can think of would be to rip people off by faking it and pretending as if I'm having 100% fun. Sometimes I feel as if I should have a punch-in time clock before I huff the dead bird. I've tried everything within my power to appreciate it (and I do, Lucifer, believe me I do, but it's not enough). I appreciate the fact that I and we have affected and entertained a lot of metalheads. It must be one of those narcissists who only appreciate things when they're gone. I'm too sensitive. I need to be slightly numb in order to regain the enthusiasms I once had as a child.

On our last few shows (primarily Stockholm and Leipzig), I've had a much better appreciation for all the people I've known personally, and as fans of our music, but I still can't get over the frustration, the guilt and empathy I have for everyone. There's good in all of us and I think I simply love people too much, so much that it makes me feel too fucking sad. The sad little, sensitive, unappreciative, Capricorn, Jesus man. Why don't you just enjoy it? I don't know!

I have a tiny, passive aggressive guitarist who sweats ambition and empathy and a drummer who reminds me too much of what i used to be, full of hatred and animosity, playing football and enjoying life. And that terrifies me to the point to where I can barely function. I can't stand the thought of Mayhem becoming the miserable, self-destructive, experimental metal band fronted by a mediocre vocalist and drug addict who looks like the villain from Ghosts of Mars.

I have it good, very good, and I'm grateful, but since the age of seven, I've become hateful towards all humans in general. Only because it seems so easy to get the band notoriety. Only because I love and feel sorry for people too much I guess.

Thank you all from the pit of my burning, bleeding spleen for your letters and concern during the past years. I'm too much of an erratic, moody baby! I don't have the passion anymore, and so remember, it's better to burn out than to fade away.

Excuse all the blood.
Per Yngve Ohlin

Euronymous and Varg, I'll be at your alter.
Please keep going guys, for me.
For the band, which will be so much more popular once you spread my death photos around.

I LOVE YOU, I LOVE YOU!


Obviously a spoof and the fact that he mentions John Carpenter's movie "Ghost of Mars" only confirms it since the movie was released in 2001. Either that or Dead must have had the ability to look into the future ;)

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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2451
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:57 am 
 

If the rumor mill is useful, around that time it was well known that Euro teased Dead to commit suicide. The guy was asperguer or something similar and Euro already had the idea of using his death to promote the band and told Dead so. It was also said back in the day that Euro didn't care about him and he was so insane that he would do anything to make the band popular and 'important' to the scene, regardless of his actions and the people who would have suffered the consequences.

It was believed that Dead finally was agreed with Euro's idea since he had no real reason to be alive anyway and that's why Euro was so prepared to confront the body and took the pics.
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Frozen218
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:27 pm
Posts: 50
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:36 am 
 

Turner wrote:
as an aside, the mystification/glorification of dead and mayhem in general is really, really silly. we're talking essentially about a bunch of d&d dorks who were no different than any of us were in our late teens. pimply-faced, metalhead dorks. and that's it! dead was what, 19 when he died? what sort of profound philosophies/dark magicks do you think he managed to develop in that time? none. the guy was clearly just a crazy kid. there's nothing more to it, no underlying evil message, no satanic cults of lost wisdom, it's all bullshit. the only mystique is that which has been blown up in the last 20 years for the wonderment of teenagers who've just discovered black metal.


Some peoples need to "demystify" the achievements of others amuse me to no end. These guys created what is generally considered the most important Black Metal album of all time, and inspired multiple generations of young musicians. Both to pick up guitars and delve into the occult. I think it's safe to that there was quite a bit more to them than just being "pimply-faced, metalhead dorks". But if it makes you feel better about yourself then be my guest... :D
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Smoking_Gnu
Chicago Favorite

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:22 pm
Posts: 2727
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:50 am 
 

Frozen218 wrote:
These guys created what is generally considered the most important Black Metal album of all time, and inspired multiple generations of young musicians.


Frozen218 wrote:
being "pimply-faced, metalhead dorks".


The two certainly don't have to be mutually exclusive.
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2451
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:07 pm 
 

Frozen218 wrote:
These guys created what is generally considered the most important Black Metal album of all time, and inspired multiple generations of young musicians.


Are you talking about DMDS? By 1994 black metal was fully developed. Its influence has been overestimated to no end. Id we're talking about post influence (1998-2000 formed bands onward) ,Transilvanian Hunger and UAFM have probably more copycats.
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Frozen218
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:27 pm
Posts: 50
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:36 pm 
 

Fenriz has repeatedly stated what a massive influence Mayhem and the Live In Leipzig tape had on Under A Funeral Moon and Darkthrone in general. You've got to remember that many of the DMDS tracks were in circulation as far back as 1989. They had a massive influence on just about every Black Metal band in the Norwegian scene. Only a fool would deny that.
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Cold Crashing Waves
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:11 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:35 pm 
 

It was all bullshit and theatrics to sell the band, nothing more. Dead was an extremely depressed and troubled kid that found some kind of refuge in the Oslo scene and it turned out not to be enough.
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TheTrueSeker
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:55 pm
Posts: 113
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:30 pm 
 

Frozen218 wrote:
Some peoples need to "demystify" the achievements of others amuse me to no end. These guys created what is generally considered the most important Black Metal album of all time, and inspired multiple generations of young musicians. Both to pick up guitars and delve into the occult. I think it's safe to that there was quite a bit more to them than just being "pimply-faced, metalhead dorks". But if it makes you feel better about yourself then be my guest... :D

Thank you for posting this. This seems to be a new(er) trend in metal. I'm guessing a lot of the anti-metal propaganda spewed by the pop (and sub-pop) music industry and parts of academia has sunken into some metalheads' subconscious, so they feel the need to separate themselves from less socially acceptable aspects of the genre by slagging them off. It's rather irritating and barely one step above saying "I enjoy it ironically."

As far as Dead's influence goes, I'd say that it's mostly aesthetic in nature (which makes sense, seeing as he was a vocalist rather than a songwriter), but that aesthetic inspired a lot of black metal bands to deviate from what the norm was in metal at the time. Compare stuff like Rabbit's Carrot to Dissection or the goofiness of early Darkthrone (Hank Amarillo and Trash Core) to what they did later. It's clear that Dead's headspace had some influence there. His vocal style was also a pretty important example of early modern black metal vocals. (Credit should also be given to Bathory, Master's Hammer, and Tormentor in that regard.) As for the magic books and castles he talks about, part of me wants to believe him, but a bigger part of me thinks it's just stuff he focused on in order to create a verbal and visual medium for second-wave black metal to exist in.

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NoKnownName
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:39 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:37 pm 
 

TheTrueSeker wrote:
I'm guessing a lot of the anti-metal propaganda spewed by the pop (and sub-pop) music industry and parts of academia has sunken into some metalheads' subconscious

Hahahahaha, you've got to be kidding me.
"The big mean media/industry hates us metalheads because they can't handle our trve darkness! They keep us down, man!"
:roll:
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Derigin
Anthropophagus

Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:25 am
Posts: 2725
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:20 pm 
 

TheTrueSeker wrote:
Frozen218 wrote:
Some peoples need to "demystify" the achievements of others amuse me to no end. These guys created what is generally considered the most important Black Metal album of all time, and inspired multiple generations of young musicians. Both to pick up guitars and delve into the occult. I think it's safe to that there was quite a bit more to them than just being "pimply-faced, metalhead dorks". But if it makes you feel better about yourself then be my guest... :D

Thank you for posting this. This seems to be a new(er) trend in metal. I'm guessing a lot of the anti-metal propaganda spewed by the pop (and sub-pop) music industry and parts of academia has sunken into some metalheads' subconscious, so they feel the need to separate themselves from less socially acceptable aspects of the genre by slagging them off. It's rather irritating and barely one step above saying "I enjoy it ironically."

There is a difference between the impact of a myth, on a subculture such as that held among metalheads, and the truth of reality, however conjectured. Unfortunately I don't believe you or Frozen218 appear to understand that distinction. There is no denying that the myths associated with Mayhem, and more generally the black metal scenes of that time, had an impact later down-the-road on the way heavy metal has developed and the way metalheads perceive black metal music. Truthfully, I don't think anyone would deny the role that mythology has on influencing and affecting the way people think about the world around them. However, mythology is not history; more often than not the most complicated, strange, mystical stories have a reality far simpler and far less glamorous than what may be generally believed. It is not only a discredit to history - and to reality - to deny the truth of a situation, it also plays right into the hands of those forces of "propaganda" that led to the creation of such myths in the first place. You end up with a safety blanket made up of lies.

As far as Dead is concerned, I don't presume to know what went on in his mind no more than trying to figure out the depths of your mind or those of the readers in this thread. That said, every piece of evidence we have leans towards a reasonable assessment that he had signs and symptoms of depression that could precipitate suicide. The sad truth is that by delegating the myths associated with his scene to that of his death we have done no better than those in the wider world who try to seek answers to complex questions (eg. the causes of violence) by dwelling on the sensational (eg. violence in video games) instead of the deeper contexts and reasoning involved in seeking truthful answers. It's no cause for alarm to see people like Dead as humans. In the long-run, it probably does him - and the scene as well - more credit doing so.

EDIT: You know for a person with the username "TheTrueSeker" it's rather ironic that you're still so driven by the power of mythology, yourself.

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Turner
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
Posts: 1253
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:04 am 
 

Frozen218 wrote:
Turner wrote:
as an aside, the mystification/glorification of dead and mayhem in general is really, really silly. we're talking essentially about a bunch of d&d dorks who were no different than any of us were in our late teens. pimply-faced, metalhead dorks. and that's it! dead was what, 19 when he died? what sort of profound philosophies/dark magicks do you think he managed to develop in that time? none. the guy was clearly just a crazy kid. there's nothing more to it, no underlying evil message, no satanic cults of lost wisdom, it's all bullshit. the only mystique is that which has been blown up in the last 20 years for the wonderment of teenagers who've just discovered black metal.


Some peoples need to "demystify" the achievements of others amuse me to no end. These guys created what is generally considered the most important Black Metal album of all time, and inspired multiple generations of young musicians. Both to pick up guitars and delve into the occult. I think it's safe to that there was quite a bit more to them than just being "pimply-faced, metalhead dorks". But if it makes you feel better about yourself then be my guest... :D


see i'm as big a fan of early mayhem as most people who enjoy second-wave bm, but i don't need to buy into some half-cooked teenage mysticism to enjoy it. beyond the "delvings" of gullible subculture-types, there IS no occult. it doesn't mean i can't enjoy the end product, though! imagery is always cool, and it enhances a lot of my fav albums, but the key is to remember that it's not real - when you buy into it to the point that you start searching for dead's lost tomes of forgotten knowledge and pining for the glory days of humanity, when we were clearly more enlightened than today.... eeeek. you've gone over the edge. hence the "pimply dorks" comment - we DO need to demystify it, because this mayhem personality cult is unbearably immature. and it really nerves me that heavy metal, which is usually nice and sensibly atheist (even in bm circles), takes such a backward leap whenever these threads come up.

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jugchord07
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:58 pm
Posts: 771
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:39 pm 
 

Who said anything about having to dive into the mysticism to enjoy it? I've been listening to the second wave for a long time and enjoyed it without so much as thinking about all of the stories that came with it. Music has nearly nothing to do with what I was trying to discuss here. I've found out more on my own than anyone in this thread can seem to give me so I'll hand it over to you guys so you can derail it even further
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teh_Foxx0rz
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 9:38 am
Posts: 372
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:49 pm 
 

Turner just because non-atheism in metal offends you or something doesn't mean that they can't have had an interest in that stuff and we're not allowed to acknowledge it, however shallow it may have been. They liked it because it was "cool" and scary just like they liked the bands which influenced them like Bathory and Frost. Not sure how this is a problem.

@Jugchord it is unfortunate that religion and beliefs always seem to be a heated topic whenever they're brought up.

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