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Woolie_Wool
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:56 pm
Posts: 1777
Location: Far beyond the prophecy of tyrant guardians
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:54 pm 
 

That seems rather specious, especially since Nordic countries tend to lead the world in terms of surveys of happiness and well-being. I think the relaxation of bourgeois sensibilities leading to ever more extreme gestures required to provoke them is more important to the development of "misanthropic" themes in black metal. Things that were formerly radical and shocking (Elvis gyrating his hips, blues singers making dirty jokes, '60s rock bands attacking capitalism and mass society, punk bands openly degrading national/government symbols and spewing profanities, '80s bands transgressing gender norms and mocking Christianity) were by the 1990s considered tame or even quaint, so people who wanted to provoke and attack established society (and there are always gadflies, in every society) had to escalate. Black metal is in many ways an attack on liberalism more than an attack on Christianity per se, which struck (and still strikes) a very raw nerve in the West, where everyone at least pays lip service to liberalism except for the most extreme arch-conservatives (like Christian dominionists), socialists (like Mao), and fascists (like, well...you know...).
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6715
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:07 am 
 

Certainly characters like Euronymous and Varg were openly opposed to liberalism, and the hateful and racist sentiments of early Norwegian black metal musicians could also be considered anti-liberalistic. However, I think that there has always been a group of people who are racist, cynic and bitter who nevertheless support the system that keeps them (even the dim bulbs can learn that they're getting more from the government than they're paying in taxes with their relatively low-income jobs) to which many black metallers belong. A common sentiment among black metal musicians is that religion especially as well as life in general are not meant to be collective things, but individualistic. Currently many thoroughly satanic musicians simply assert that everyone must seek their own path, and though everyone's chosen path is open to criticism (and even violent retaliation), every individual must have freedom to choose. Therefore, the reason why people like christians are so despicable to them is in great part because of the herd mentality, which paints them as inferior beings, or humans who aren't whole. Christianity is also seen as evil because it doesn't allow self-improvement and ascension and instead strongly promotes submission and surrender to God's caprice. Prayers to Satan are for empowering oneself, not for asserting allegiance solely.

The contempt for humanity as a whole is largely because of cynicism and bitterness rather than outright, blazing hatred in many cases. Many of these types aren't the extreme misanthropes that their imagery would lead you to think (surprise, right?), though they're definitely unlikely to tolerate people who peeve them.
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Yayattasa
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 am
Posts: 686
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:10 pm 
 

Ganondox wrote:
To a lesser extent, couldn't you say that about most metal? Punk as well. I think the real irony more relates to the NSBM where in an actual fascist nation they probably wouldn't be able to make such music.

Quote:
The weakness of Christianity in Europe is part of why I think black metal lyrics and ideologies were so extreme. When church is something people only attend on Easter and Christmas Eve, the only way to shock people with an anti-Christian sentiment is to go all the way. "Fuck the church" wasn't a very provocative or noteworthy sentiment anymore but burning a church was an act so outrageous it could not be ignored.


I think the other element is the history. Forced conversions to Christianity were particularly bad and prominent there. While the church has little power is most of europe now and now rebelling against it is more or less pointless, it used to be the most powerful organization there.


The forced conversions were mostly carried by the local authorities, not by the Holy See.
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Arkhane wrote:
Damn, I thought this thread was headed for closure. Good save, whoever saved it but I'm too lazy to scroll up right now.

oh my god people disagreed on something for several pages stop the presses

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DennisDemoniarch
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:55 pm
Posts: 255
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:25 pm 
 

Interesting thread. Not sure what it's supposed to be about though.

I don't think black metal has ever been about life's hardships. The primary lyrical concept has been about anti-christian themes. No matter how wealthy a country is, if it is overtly connected to a religion, a state and church union, that is more than enough reason to be filled with a venomous hate in my opinion. Not everyone is susceptible to that ridiculous mindset and would prefer to have it removed completely from governmental affairs.


The only genre I am aware of that whines about how hard life is ...is perhaps country music.

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Jimmy Calhoun
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:29 pm
Posts: 599
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:14 am 
 

Quote:
The only genre I am aware of that whines about how hard life is ...is perhaps country music.


Also emo and pop-punk to a degree, I suppose, but there it's usually much more narrowly focused - romantic/sexual hardships specifically, which can obviously affect anyone regardless of social class.
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Jimmy Calhoun
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:29 pm
Posts: 599
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:22 am 
 

Quote:
Illiterate? Never 'eard that one before. Where'd you read that?


Not in any "hard" sources (like a book) but I have heard/read the anecdote repeated multiple times. It may well be an exaggeration, though Ozzy for one certainly did not do well in school, and by his late teens already had a record for theft/burglary.
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Woolie_Wool
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:56 pm
Posts: 1777
Location: Far beyond the prophecy of tyrant guardians
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:53 am 
 

DennisDemoniarch wrote:
The only genre I am aware of that whines about how hard life is ...is perhaps country music.

Well there's blues...but in their case, they had a point. Being black in early-mid 20th century America was a hard life.
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VikingWolf
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 9:55 am
Posts: 13
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:31 am 
 

Woolie_Wool wrote:
Late '80s/early '90s hardcore rap absolutely was an intellectual hammer used in reaction against white racism and a thoroughly unequal American society. And their grievances were much more real than those of people like Euronymous, because they actually were being hurt and trampled upon by the society they lived in rather than experiencing some vaguely defined anomie. NWA had good reasons to "fuck tha police".

I think that it's true for both scenes that some musicians came from genuinely unstable environments that translated into their music and actions, while a lot of others were just petty antisocial fucks. As in the gangsta rap case, some artists such as, say, NWA (although I don't pretend to be knowledgeable about facts regarding the rap scene) did have real grievances such as having to deal with police abuse and poverty, but plenty of others are just in it to be opportunistic thugs. (Think of it like the Ferguson and Baltimore riots - there are plenty of people who have every right to demonstrate their anger toward the police departments, but the people who are burning and looting buildings are just taking advantage of the situation to commit petty larceny.)

Same goes for black metal. Life can be hellish in Scandinavia, especially in the far north where they have seasonal polar nights (a lot of people there commit suicide because of this). Furthermore, some figures in the scene, such as Tom Warrior and Dead, were genuinely tortured by their schoolmates in their youths. (Especially the latter, who nearly died in one instance and went completely insane.) However, other figures like arsonists Varg and Euronymous were just spoiled losers who wanted to act out on antisocial impulses. (Read interviews with them from the time - they wanted to commit evil just for the sake of committing evil.) (I also think, though, that the influence that wackos like Dead had on the scene is culpable for the crimes that transpired after his death. Just look at Euronymous - he was just a normal guy who didn't do anything before Dead joined Mayhem.)
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schizoid
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:35 am
Posts: 816
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:00 am 
 

You must have a real hard on for Dead, rezzing all these ancient threads about him.

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somefella
Veteran

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2918
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:57 am 
 

Woolie_Wool wrote:
Late '80s/early '90s hardcore rap absolutely was an intellectual hammer used in reaction against white racism and a thoroughly unequal American society. And their grievances were much more real than those of people like Euronymous, because they actually were being hurt and trampled upon by the society they lived in rather than experiencing some vaguely defined anomie. NWA had good reasons to "fuck tha police".


Agreed 100%. And I wouldn't compare Scandinavian black metal to it at all. It's good music and I like and listen to it as much as the next nerdy metal freak but 99% of the time it gets put on pedestals that it doesn't belong on (the next time I hear someone say Dissection is a modern Vivaldi or Bach...)
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 8674
Location: Tyrn Gorthad
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 11:45 am 
 

VikingWolf wrote:
Dead


Image
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