Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 



Reply to topic  
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
narsilianshard
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 pm
Posts: 559
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:03 pm 
 

As much as I love Scandinavian Black Metal, one thing I've always found hilarious is the irony (hypocrisy?) of its founders/artists. Norway and Sweden are two of the richest countries in the world. Even the poorest people from there have infinitely better lives than 99% people on the planet. Musicians get money from the government just for playing in bands. Unemployment checks and healthcare are handed out like candy. And yet the music is all about struggle, hardship, the general shittiness of life and how awful humanity is. How can their views and attitudes be taken seriously when they're living essentially the most comfortable in human existence?

Obviously a lot of this has to do with image, and personal struggles shouldn't be ignored, but the whole thing is a bit ridiculous when you think about it. And of course this can be applied to other parts of the world, Scandinavia just has the highest standard of living to black metal ratio which makes it stand out.
_________________
I write things about metal here, here, and sometimes here.

Top
 Profile  
rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8740
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:05 pm 
 

Theirs is a spiritual struggle, they have no reason to fight anymore and must declare grand proclamations that exhort nihilism and misanthropy because honestly they have won the game and are bored.

Next.

Top
 Profile  
Napero
GedankenPanzer

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
Posts: 8437
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:19 pm 
 

Says the guy from Seattle, the USA equivalent of Ethiopian badlands. Poor bugger.

Anyone thinking that more than 1% of black metal is an ideologically serious undertaking and not just image is probably sitting in jail for toppling grave stones. And belongs in that 1%.
_________________
Chest wounds suck (when properly inflicted).
-Butch-

Top
 Profile  
Exigence
Age: 28 (Wait, what?!)

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:42 pm
Posts: 749
Location: New Orleans
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:42 pm 
 

I was wondering how all those losers fed themselves. With unemployment checks. Seems so fitting.

THOUGH TO BE FAIR: The irony of a lot of good metal is that it costs a lot of money to have the proper equipment to make decent recordings. Good guitars, amps and other gear cost a shit ton. Only the richest white kids I grew up with had that shit. My bass rig was always dogshit.

Look at that 2000s metalcore boom in Massachusetts. Yeah. Hard ass white kids from New England.

Top
 Profile  
Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2280
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:54 pm 
 

Just think about how it was born and it was developed, look a bit to the rise of thrash for example. The urge to be rebellious according to the times and to go against the stablishment; the anti religion sentiment and all that stuff who brought to us death metal both in music intensity and philosophical-mere shocking value. This lead to many to push the boundaries and black metal appeared.

Now, black metal wasn't born in Norway or Sweden. Black metal existed before in the Uk, Brazil, Greece, Chile, Switzerland and other regions with very different life standards. See Brazil for example, it had and maybe still has a quite considerable poverty rate and besides the cavaleras, I don't recall the guys in Volcano being rich by 1982. In Chile only Raisenegger was kinda rich but the guys from Death Yell, Bloody Cross or the other Pentagram members besides the rest of the scene weren't.

When the norwegian or Swedish scene started they had no government support or had fame to make it big instantly. All those things came with time and just a few or them made it big enough to live off music, most of them still have everyday jobs. Of course their education and resources (like getting decent instruments) helped but they started almost like every other band in every other place. The polish, Hungarian and Greek scene were developing from less favorable grounds and still they got well known in the world, via creating quality music.

I remember Tom G Warrior said that Switzerland has such small scene cause people has no needs. The country's life standard is so high that no one cares about other thinf that making good money. I bet he and the Locher brothers (Samael) weren't precisely poor but still they got into metal and got immersed into the occult thing. Some people is dead serious about it like Shamaatae.

Just to laugh about how well they might live doesn't mean they can't feel the things that made metal a unique form of expression. Money doesn't buy everything.
_________________
Forestfather in Facebook- Some sort of black metal.
Get Forestfather's new album 'Hereafter' here!
Kveldulf's various stuff in Soundcloud
Vahşet in ReverbNation - Death metal


Last edited by Kveldulfr on Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8740
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:56 pm 
 

This guy knows *everything* about metal, y'all.

Top
 Profile  
hots_towel
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:19 am
Posts: 123
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:09 pm 
 

well i personally dont really listen to any black metal, but from what i know about most european bands, they usually write mostly about fiction or fantasy (you know how per metal bands are), or they sing about other things going on in the world that they think are wrong, or should be brought to light (Kalmah does this and its really bugs me sometimes. but hey, its their music). I know Alexi Laiho usually write about what op said about personal struggles (every CoB song sounds like its about one of his ex girlfriends or something).

black metal is mostly cheese to me anyways though. its not like any of us took it seriously anyways when we hear lyrics like "darkness is all around me and is me" or some crap like that.
_________________
"An excellent Signature." -Chef Excellence (1856-2015)

Top
 Profile  
Desperta_Ferro
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:45 am
Posts: 598
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:12 pm 
 

And here in Argentina the happy, sugary finnish power metal is very popular. Every day I see like like two or three Sonata Arctica t-shirts, tsssk

BUT even power metal bands here have "social issues" lyrical themes instead of fantasy or what-have-you. It's there.


Last edited by Desperta_Ferro on Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
Lightsbane
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 229
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:13 pm 
 

Just because you have money doesn't mean that you're all set. I don't see the argument
_________________
iAm wrote:
We regularly share tea together and discuss the black arts. last week we were joined by Tupac as well, Dead didn't get along with him.

Top
 Profile  
Bishop_Drugsalot
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:42 am
Posts: 188
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:29 pm 
 

Sounds like OP has dwelled mostly on DSBM if all the lyrics are about hardship and shittiness of life.
Struggle is such an universal concept that it lyricwise may have nothing to do with your financial situation or such.
Also, "how awful humanity is", in other words misanthropy. When in the name of fuck did misanthropy become in any way related to your personal well being?
_________________
"Heaven holds a place for he who shuts his fucking mouth before he speaks." Ex. The

Top
 Profile  
matras
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am
Posts: 870
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:38 pm 
 

To OP: You've obviously never lived in Sweden. Then you would have retracted that "unemployment- and social security checks being handed out like candy". You clearly haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Top
 Profile  
raumr
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 275
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:40 pm 
 

Since when did Mayhem, Darkthrone, Burzum, Immortal, Emperor or Enslaved (the biggest, early bands) ever sing about the hardships of life? Yeah, their lyrics are filled with hatred, misanthropy, Satanism, nihilism, darkness, etc, but I don't see them whining about life in Norway.

Suicide is a theme in both Mayhem and Darkthrone (Freezing Moon, Under a Funeral Moon, etc), but it's not in the same DSBM vein that we got later. Despair and angst is a theme in Burzum, but as we know, Varg is nostalgic for a time where his perfect world existed, I don't think he was emo because he had such an easy life.

narsilianshard wrote:
Unemployment checks and healthcare are handed out like candy.


That's how Norway would be portrayed in the film North (1994). Stereotypical and ridiculous.

Top
 Profile  
Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6373
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:50 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
Since when did Mayhem, Darkthrone, Burzum, Immortal, Emperor and Enslaved (the biggest, early bands) ever sing about the hardships of life?

raumr wrote:
Suicide is a theme in both Mayhem and Darkthrone (Freezing Moon, Under a Funeral Moon, etc), but it's not in the same DSBM vein that we got later. Despair and angst is a theme in Burzum, but as we know, Varg is nostalgic for a time where his perfect world existed, I don't think he was emo because he had such an easy life.

Are you a little confused?

Though I guess I get what you're saying, I don't think that's what the original post is about. In any case, the anxiety that black metal musicians often express is something that's unlikely to last long where survival is actually a concern.
_________________
"Behold, wizard, for the last time how the sun looks, for henceforth you will watch it with empty sockets!"
Illusions Dead - death/black metal

Top
 Profile  
U472439
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 6:19 pm
Posts: 27
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:02 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Though I guess I get what you're saying, I don't think that's what the original post is about. In any case, the anxiety that black metal musicians often express is something that's unlikely to last long where survival is actually a concern.


I think this is the thesis of the thread, and not uncommon for the development of extreme music/art in general. For example, punk coming out of the UK and US in the mid-70s, hardly two countries renouned for their harsh overall conditions (though you could argue the disparity between various social classes was a prime motivator for the music). Or psychedelic music in the 60s coming from the same places. Or abstract electronic/proto noise music being made in labs in the 50s, etc etc

Top
 Profile  
raumr
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
Posts: 275
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:22 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Are you a little confused?


Why do you ask? Was my point somehow irrelevant to this discussion? I just don't think the OP's description of the Scandinavian bands was correct at all. Is this statement congruent with how the music of these bands actually sound?

EDIT: Wait, are you saying that my two quotes there are contradictory? Then say so, I'll gladly explain.

Quote:
And yet the music is all about struggle, hardship, the general shittiness of life and how awful humanity is.


Last edited by raumr on Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 18758
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:26 pm 
 

I'm amazed how these black metal threads draw out the most ridiculous assertions and arguments...for one, richest country in the world doesn't necessarily mean everyone is super well off all the time, two, being rich or even moderately well off doesn't mean you have zero problems, and three, half of these bands were just doing it for the theatrical value and not for any legit social reasons.
_________________
Cinema Freaks latest reviews: Ghostbusters 2

Top
 Profile  
narsilianshard
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 pm
Posts: 559
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:55 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
I'm amazed how these black metal threads draw out the most ridiculous assertions and arguments...for one, richest country in the world doesn't necessarily mean everyone is super well off all the time, two, being rich or even moderately well off doesn't mean you have zero problems, and three, half of these bands were just doing it for the theatrical value and not for any legit social reasons.


Yeah, and that's exactly why I said in the original post:

Quote:
Obviously a lot of this has to do with image, and personal struggles shouldn't be ignored
_________________
I write things about metal here, here, and sometimes here.

Top
 Profile  
PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
Posts: 5670
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:07 pm 
 

Nah, it makes sense. Black metal is a philosophical endeavor, and one needs a relatively adapt safety net to create intellectual things for the most part. Great passion can come from starvation and fear of dying - but intellectual pursuits of the highest order often come from those who are more or less aristocratic.
_________________
BAPTIST - dr((((((((((((( )))))))))))))ne, Meditation, Ambient
I write funny things on twitter

Top
 Profile  
narsilianshard
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 pm
Posts: 559
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:23 pm 
 

^I really, really like this answer.
_________________
I write things about metal here, here, and sometimes here.

Top
 Profile  
Marag
Veteran

Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:55 pm
Posts: 2660
Location: down there where chaos prevails
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:33 pm 
 

Idleness breeds contemplation. You wouldn't have the time to think up this stupid thread if you were living on the run from Janjaweed militias.

Top
 Profile  
PhilosophicalFrog
The Hypercube

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 7:08 pm
Posts: 5670
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:40 pm 
 

I don't think it's necessarily stupid, I jut think its launch was a little crooked. Indeed idleness breeds contemplation, and maybe that's why there is a staggering difference between the number of European thinkers vs the rest of the world. I dunno though, it's just worth viewing black metal - particularly in the early European fashion, as an intellectual hammer - lashing back at a society that is so seemingly serene, homogeneous, boring and well, listless. Black metal was used as a tool to rally against listlessness and find purpose (hence the musings on the pagans, the old gods, death and destruction) - it was undoubtedly done in a self-aware manner too. They looked around at the society that they were indeed part of, and decided to reject it while still existing within it - a common democratic sentiment. So, no. I don't think there is hypocrisy - there is just self-awareness and a deep sense of longing for more.
_________________
BAPTIST - dr((((((((((((( )))))))))))))ne, Meditation, Ambient
I write funny things on twitter

Top
 Profile  
Tarrikian
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:02 am
Posts: 25
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:16 pm 
 

PhilosophicalFrog wrote:
I don't think it's necessarily stupid, I jut think its launch was a little crooked. Indeed idleness breeds contemplation, and maybe that's why there is a staggering difference between the number of European thinkers vs the rest of the world. I dunno though, it's just worth viewing black metal - particularly in the early European fashion, as an intellectual hammer - lashing back at a society that is so seemingly serene, homogeneous, boring and well, listless. Black metal was used as a tool to rally against listlessness and find purpose (hence the musings on the pagans, the old gods, death and destruction) - it was undoubtedly done in a self-aware manner too. They looked around at the society that they were indeed part of, and decided to reject it while still existing within it - a common democratic sentiment. So, no. I don't think there is hypocrisy - there is just self-awareness and a deep sense of longing for more.


So does gangsta rap, but that doesn't make it necessarily an "intellectual hammer".

Top
 Profile  
Woolie_Wool
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:56 pm
Posts: 1629
Location: Far beyond the prophecy of tyrant guardians
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:33 pm 
 

Late '80s/early '90s hardcore rap absolutely was an intellectual hammer used in reaction against white racism and a thoroughly unequal American society. And their grievances were much more real than those of people like Euronymous, because they actually were being hurt and trampled upon by the society they lived in rather than experiencing some vaguely defined anomie. NWA had good reasons to "fuck tha police".
_________________
Wilytank wrote:
Of course, nothing respectable about the penis. We gents need to all grab the nearest sharp object and start hacking.

Top
 Profile  
Tarrikian
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:02 am
Posts: 25
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:44 pm 
 

What I am saying is that all of these youth movements are started by illiterate, working class kids, young people. Not the thinking elite of a society. They can hardly be called "intellectual" anything. They are expressions of popular culture, but they are not particularly articulate meditations made by the ones in the forefront of the information pyramid of that society.

Top
 Profile  
AcidWorm
Veteran

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:37 pm
Posts: 2735
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:24 pm 
 

narsilianshard wrote:
Even the poorest people from there have infinitely better lives than 99% people on the planet. Musicians get money from the government just for playing in bands. Unemployment checks and healthcare are handed out like candy. And yet the music is all about struggle, hardship, the general shittiness of life and how awful humanity is. How can their views and attitudes be taken seriously when they're living essentially the most comfortable in human existence?

Akhenaten's dad is a Judge so his socioeconomic status was fine. Nicholas Cage's son is a frontman of a black metal band.

Tell me more about how black metal represents poverty.

Norway is a very Christian nation, and when you strongly push a lifestyle on teenagers then some of them will rebel. This helped inspire teenagers to be a part of the black metal movement there.
_________________
In reference to Baby Metal
tanabata wrote:
I heard one of the moderators blacklisted them because of his subjective opinion. Well If that is the case, you sir have shit taste and you ain't my nigga!

Top
 Profile  
true_death
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
Posts: 181
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:46 pm 
 

While we're on this subject, I'd like to bring up a point about American black metal. Lots of people are very against black metal coming from the US for reasons which I'm sure everyone is aware of (a lot of stereotyping)...but Erik from Watain mentioned an interesting point in an interview I watched: he said that black metal and the aesthetics behind it is actually more relevant for Americans than it is for Scandinavians. over in those Scandinavian countries, in many of them religion is not such a popular thing anymore (especially Sweden), and in his words the bands that are playing this ultra-Satanic black metal and the fans over there don't necessarily have as much to rebel against in this regard. Over here in the US, however, religion is still very strong, especially in the South (where I live), where in a couple places people are actually still trying to push Creationism to be taught in school over Evolution, our Democratic president is (by some) labelled as "the antichrist", and non-Christians are basically looked down upon by everyone.

Do you guys think that this kind of environment in the US will allow American black metallers to possess the rage and hatred required to play such music, or is it something that is rooted more in region and the aesthetics attatched with living in such areas that give the musician that?

Top
 Profile  
Thashierthanthou
Not Semi-Witty Enough for his Own Title

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:04 pm
Posts: 2292
Location: Mushroom Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:04 am 
 

The only struggles that most black metal bands write about are the struggles of dealing with fucking cold winters.
Having a wealthy background doesn't mean that a person's life is perfect, you don't need to have a certain amount of oppression points to be able to write lyrics about the individual struggles you may face.

Exigence wrote:
I was wondering how all those losers fed themselves. With unemployment checks. Seems so fitting.

THOUGH TO BE FAIR: The irony of a lot of good metal is that it costs a lot of money to have the proper equipment to make decent recordings. Good guitars, amps and other gear cost a shit ton. Only the richest white kids I grew up with had that shit. My bass rig was always dogshit.

Look at that 2000s metalcore boom in Massachusetts. Yeah. Hard ass white kids from New England.

Skin color has nothing to do with it; there are millions of people with white skin who come from shitty backgrounds.
_________________
Subrick wrote:
opet is tree metal! there early albums talk about trees!

They should have talked about why failsafeman sucks!

Top
 Profile  
Woolie_Wool
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:56 pm
Posts: 1629
Location: Far beyond the prophecy of tyrant guardians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:06 am 
 

Thashierthanthou wrote:
The only struggles that most black metal bands write about are the struggles of dealing with fucking cold winters.
Having a wealthy background doesn't mean that a person's life is perfect, you don't need to have a certain amount of oppression points to be able to write lyrics about the individual struggles you may face.

Shhhh! Don't let Tumblr hear you! :lol:
_________________
Wilytank wrote:
Of course, nothing respectable about the penis. We gents need to all grab the nearest sharp object and start hacking.

Top
 Profile  
narsilianshard
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:22 pm
Posts: 559
Location: Seattle
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:16 am 
 

AcidWorm wrote:
narsilianshard wrote:
Norway is a very Christian nation, and when you strongly push a lifestyle on teenagers then some of them will rebel. This helped inspire teenagers to be a part of the black metal movement there.


This is not true at all. It's one of the least religious countries in the world.
_________________
I write things about metal here, here, and sometimes here.

Top
 Profile  
invoked
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:54 pm
Posts: 1699
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:21 am 
 

true_death wrote:
While we're on this subject, I'd like to bring up a point about American black metal. Lots of people are very against black metal coming from the US for reasons which I'm sure everyone is aware of (a lot of stereotyping)...but Erik from Watain mentioned an interesting point in an interview I watched: he said that black metal and the aesthetics behind it is actually more relevant for Americans than it is for Scandinavians. over in those Scandinavian countries, in many of them religion is not such a popular thing anymore (especially Sweden), and in his words the bands that are playing this ultra-Satanic black metal and the fans over there don't necessarily have as much to rebel against in this regard. Over here in the US, however, religion is still very strong, especially in the South (where I live), where in a couple places people are actually still trying to push Creationism to be taught in school over Evolution, our Democratic president is (by some) labelled as "the antichrist", and non-Christians are basically looked down upon by everyone.

I agree, anti-Christianity and/or Satanism is such a tired topic within metal. If those Scandis had real cojones they would start attacking that OTHER Abrahamic religion, right?
_________________
MEFITIS- Death and/or black metal
http://www.myspace.com/mefitisband

Top
 Profile  
Auch
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:40 pm
Posts: 65
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:30 am 
 

true_death wrote:
While we're on this subject, I'd like to bring up a point about American black metal. Lots of people are very against black metal coming from the US for reasons which I'm sure everyone is aware of (a lot of stereotyping)...but Erik from Watain mentioned an interesting point in an interview I watched: he said that black metal and the aesthetics behind it is actually more relevant for Americans than it is for Scandinavians. over in those Scandinavian countries, in many of them religion is not such a popular thing anymore (especially Sweden), and in his words the bands that are playing this ultra-Satanic black metal and the fans over there don't necessarily have as much to rebel against in this regard. Over here in the US, however, religion is still very strong, especially in the South (where I live), where in a couple places people are actually still trying to push Creationism to be taught in school over Evolution, our Democratic president is (by some) labelled as "the antichrist", and non-Christians are basically looked down upon by everyone.

Do you guys think that this kind of environment in the US will allow American black metallers to possess the rage and hatred required to play such music, or is it something that is rooted more in region and the aesthetics attatched with living in such areas that give the musician that?


Very interesting idea. I definitely can see that line of thinking and it also seems like there are a lot of the other things particularly developed in the US that USBM bands can focus on and rally against (the massive anti-environmentalism and inequality for example). I know those are large preoccupations for Panopticon and Wolves In The Throne Room.

Top
 Profile  
Woolie_Wool
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:56 pm
Posts: 1629
Location: Far beyond the prophecy of tyrant guardians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:59 am 
 

The weakness of Christianity in Europe is part of why I think black metal lyrics and ideologies were so extreme. When church is something people only attend on Easter and Christmas Eve, the only way to shock people with an anti-Christian sentiment is to go all the way. "Fuck the church" wasn't a very provocative or noteworthy sentiment anymore but burning a church was an act so outrageous it could not be ignored.
_________________
Wilytank wrote:
Of course, nothing respectable about the penis. We gents need to all grab the nearest sharp object and start hacking.

Top
 Profile  
Ganondox
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:43 am
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:16 am 
 

To a lesser extent, couldn't you say that about most metal? Punk as well. I think the real irony more relates to the NSBM where in an actual fascist nation they probably wouldn't be able to make such music.

Quote:
The weakness of Christianity in Europe is part of why I think black metal lyrics and ideologies were so extreme. When church is something people only attend on Easter and Christmas Eve, the only way to shock people with an anti-Christian sentiment is to go all the way. "Fuck the church" wasn't a very provocative or noteworthy sentiment anymore but burning a church was an act so outrageous it could not be ignored.


I think the other element is the history. Forced conversions to Christianity were particularly bad and prominent there. While the church has little power is most of europe now and now rebelling against it is more or less pointless, it used to be the most powerful organization there.

Top
 Profile  
Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6373
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:57 am 
 

raumr wrote:
Why do you ask? Was my point somehow irrelevant to this discussion? I just don't think the OP's description of the Scandinavian bands was correct at all. Is this statement congruent with how the music of these bands actually sound?

EDIT: Wait, are you saying that my two quotes there are contradictory? Then say so, I'll gladly explain.

Quote:
And yet the music is all about struggle, hardship, the general shittiness of life and how awful humanity is.

Yeah, regarding the point of the thread I don't think you made any significant distinction between singing about hardships of life and that.

In any case, there are black metal bands (Scandinavian by extension) that definitely do sing about various hardships of life, such as Impaled Nazarene, Baptism and Sargeist. The original poster simply expressed that something like that, when seemingly turned into extremely hateful, misanthropic stance is the utmost extreme of first world problem whining, because these people supposedly do not encounter any significant hardships that would warrant hateful, bitter attitudes towards life. Obviously, that's missing the point of black metal's existential anxiety by a tremendous margin. The assertment that it often comes across as juvenile is difficult to deny, though.
_________________
"Behold, wizard, for the last time how the sun looks, for henceforth you will watch it with empty sockets!"
Illusions Dead - death/black metal

Top
 Profile  
Turner
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
Posts: 1087
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:18 am 
 

lol @ the "forced christianity" defence - honestly, you do realise that said conversions occured around 1000 years ago?
that's just some half-baked shit vikernes came up with after he'd had a few years to stew in a cell and work out exactly how to justify the actions of his teenage self.

the real irony is that black metal only exemplifies the triumph of free-thinking western culture - its continued existence and steady gentrification show just how accepted it is. you think you're rebelling, but you're really just reinforcing the views of 99.9% of the population.

Top
 Profile  
Jimmy Calhoun
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:29 pm
Posts: 431
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:22 am 
 

Quote:
If those Scandis had real cojones they would start attacking that OTHER Abrahamic religion, right?


Please... The last thing anyone needs is a Swedish GBK... :wink:

Top
 Profile  
Paganbasque
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:28 am
Posts: 1456
Location: Basque Country
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:41 am 
 

Turner wrote:
lol @ the "forced christianity" defence - honestly, you do realise that said conversions occured around 1000 years ago?
that's just some half-baked shit vikernes came up with after he'd had a few years to stew in a cell and work out exactly how to justify the actions of his teenage self.

the real irony is that black metal only exemplifies the triumph of free-thinking western culture - its continued existence and steady gentrification show just how accepted it is. you think you're rebelling, but you're really just reinforcing the views of 99.9% of the population.


No, that’s not true. Christianity was partially imposed in Europe, an important part became Christians but it was imposed too and violently in some parts..

Its true that that the mere existence and success of bm is a good example of free thinking in Europe but its too much to say that a vast majority of people support what bm bands claim.

Top
 Profile  
MalignantTyrant
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:27 pm
Posts: 1152
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:44 am 
 

invoked wrote:
I agree, anti-Christianity and/or Satanism is such a tired topic within metal. If those Scandis had real cojones they would start attacking that OTHER Abrahamic religion, right?

It would make sense for them to go after Islam since it's slowly gaining a stronger foothold in Scandinavia and England.
_________________
محارب البلاك ميتال

Top
 Profile  
Paganbasque
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:28 am
Posts: 1456
Location: Basque Country
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:51 am 
 

MalignantTyrant wrote:
invoked wrote:
I agree, anti-Christianity and/or Satanism is such a tired topic within metal. If those Scandis had real cojones they would start attacking that OTHER Abrahamic religion, right?

It would make sense for them to go after Islam since it's slowly gaining a stronger foothold in Scandinavia and England.


The anti-muslim political partys are growing very fast so it would be not strange to see music bands who sing about destroying/hating muslims. Anyway, people seem to be more cautious with those who could put a bomb in your house if you say something bad about their religion.

Top
 Profile  
Turner
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
Posts: 1087
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:37 am 
 

Paganbasque wrote:
Turner wrote:
lol @ the "forced christianity" defence - honestly, you do realise that said conversions occured around 1000 years ago?
that's just some half-baked shit vikernes came up with after he'd had a few years to stew in a cell and work out exactly how to justify the actions of his teenage self.

the real irony is that black metal only exemplifies the triumph of free-thinking western culture - its continued existence and steady gentrification show just how accepted it is. you think you're rebelling, but you're really just reinforcing the views of 99.9% of the population.


No, that’s not true. Christianity was partially imposed in Europe, an important part became Christians but it was imposed too and violently in some parts..


ah see, i studied history at uni and generally how it went was this:
- leaders accept christianity for one reason or another (rarely just conquest!!!), promise the church they'll convert the general populace
- general populace is apprehensive, leaders allow them to adopt a mish-mash religion of sorts, mixing the older religion with christianity (ironically, fantoft stave church was a good example of pagan architecture within the church)
- within a few generations, given the presence of learned priests and general illiteracy amongst the general populace, everyone simply becomes christian and the older elements fade out.

that's a massively simplified rundown of proceedings, but the extant image in popular metal culture of those mean christians killing everyone who wouldn't convert on the spot is a fucking load of shit. and very importantly for us followers of almighty wotan, the germanic heathens were treated comparatively brilliantly - you could look to the jews if you want to see some real persecution, but how much jewish bm is there?

Paganbasque wrote:
MalignantTyrant wrote:
It would make sense for them to go after Islam since it's slowly gaining a stronger foothold in Scandinavia and England.


The anti-muslim political partys are growing very fast so it would be not strange to see music bands who sing about destroying/hating muslims. Anyway, people seem to be more cautious with those who could put a bomb in your house if you say something bad about their religion.


perhaps one downside to our glorious western model of civilisation is the push for tolerance at any cost - anti-islamic sentiment in the west, despite anti-christian (and notably, anti-atheist) sentiment in muslim countries being the norm, is one of the many forms of intolerance we're trying to breed out of ourselves. very few individuals can get away with criticising what's ostensibly an outdated, somewhat violent religion with no real place in the 21st century, at least not without attracting unwanted drama - one day you launch a valid criticism, the next you've become the darling of the far right, neo-nazis and assorted other lowlives. some get away with it - richard dawkins comes to mind - but for the most part, i know personally when i see political parties with anti-muslim messages i assume it's a front for something worse. or at the very least, i hate that i'd be joining my vote with a bunch of "fuck off, we're full" types.

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Empyreal, EyesOfGlass, LeMiserable, Vanguard_Prod, Yahoo [Bot] and 21 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group