Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives

Message board

* FAQ    * Register   * Login 



This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.
Author Message Previous topic | Next topic
Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 9311
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:21 am 
 

"elitism" in the metal community has got absolutely nothing on the same in jazz circles. Of course metal puts a different face on it...the "posturing", as someone put it earlier, bares more in common with the blues from earlier decades, where there was (some would say) a healthy attitude of everyone trying to outdo everyone else...mostly friendly rivalry and self-aggrandisements. I really find it strange to see people complaining about all this.
_________________
Hush! and hark
To the sorrowful cry
Of the wind in the dark.
Hush and hark, without murmur or sigh,
To shoon that tread the lost aeons:
To the sound that bids you to die.

Top
 Profile  
I_Crash_and_Burn
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 245
Location: San Benedetto Belbo (Cuneo) Italy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:07 pm 
 

the_raytownian wrote:
Oh, the irony! Elitism, the "us vs. them" mentality, is exactly the problem.
I blame Euronymous. He basically set the standard for being a posturing, image-oriented jerk.

That said, I also blame socially-inept teenagers raised on the internet and sensationalist publications who got their metal "education" and sense of belonging and values from them in the late 90's onward.

They read all this garbage about the culture of "TNBM" and chose to perpetuate the now trite and boring stereotypes of being "trve" by acting like elitist brats (the media has provided fertile soil for racist, macho idiots in metal too, I think). Most people grow out of that stupidity before their 30's fortunately.

I don't think assholes are really anything but a vocal minority of people in the global (internet) metal community. Most (mentally stable and employed) metal fans have more important things to worry about than "killing posers".
.


Your last statement is more than true... but believe me, it's not that true that elitism or a kind of subtle "racism" between listeners of one kind of music or another come only out of black metal, as your words may suggest, and pardon me if I misunderstood. Let alone the fact that I never acted as such and I always gave a fuck of what other people does or prefers, my point of view is that usually, basically and inevitably within the walls of a subgenre, or of a music genre to be more vastly general, there are guys who think their dick is always harder than yours. Always got through it since my arrival into metal, and Manowar were harder than Rage, Megadeth better than Metallica, and anyway both of them sucked if compared to Overkill, Agent steel stronger than X........... (your fave speed/thrash metal band here), and so on, so your dick was smaller and you had to convert into their Viagra-like ultra-mega-fabulous preferred band if you wanted to ultimately see the real shining light of METAL!!!! (oh, yeah). Black metal have increased the sense of belonging to something wicked, thus prohibited and under serious risk of cleansing from one day to another... this is real. But the only real consequence of it it's a generation like mine really glad to purchase real vinyls and cd's instead of downloading every single shit the scene offers and then erasin' it two days later. With some guys gettin' out of brain with stupid things to feel and show themselves more "evil" or "true", for sure, but a situation common to whatever else the style you prefer, Doom metal included (daren't you touch St. Vitus, ok? Above and Beyond any judgement.. oh my god, unlistenable in my opinion any of their relese from the beginning to the end. Guess I'll be crucified within minutes, won't I? Ahahahaha)

Cheers
G

Top
 Profile  
Scourge441
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:38 am
Posts: 864
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:35 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
Metal culture is dividing and it is a great thing. There has always been a web of contacts of fans of different styles, but they are better connected than ever, and better specialized than ever. There are specific but overlapping subcultures with similar appeals that connect with the fans very well - for example Nuclear War Now. Not only is it a label that has been active for just over a decade and become extremely prominent, but it's a brand of quality to a certain group of fans, across black/death/thrash, even some heavy and doom metal like Cauchemar that has a similar appeal but different style. The label has done a great job from starting out re-releasing OOP classics, putting out releases by veteran bands who wouldn't grace a "major" metal label, and releasing stuff by newer bands. Through the label and the subculture there, it's very easy to find a lot of other labels who are doing similar thing that you would like, like Hells Headbangers, Dark Descent, etc. - it has become easier for these labels to connect to fans and build a network and reputation, while many of the older legendary labels died before this wave of labels rose in the last decade - Wild Rags, No Fashion, Necropolis, Adipocere, and many more all died out while serving the underground very well, but labels like Relapse/CM/NB/SoM/MB built much more commercial catalogs that have a few things that appeal to some of the more die-hard fans, but reach to a much broader, more mainstream audience.

A decade ago, the metal community was bitching about metalcore and clinging to old icons of black and death metal. Remember how much Vital Remains was talked about ten years ago because Glen Benton did vocals on two albums? When the flame of past glory was still flickering and people took Gorgoroth seriously because they were an old Norwegian black metal band who still put on the act and had Nuclear Blast promoting them. In the earlier days of the file-sharing age (late 90s/early 00s) it became very easy to acquire music, but not the greatest variety - it did wonders to promote some bands whose music was fairly accessible, and it also began transitioning the culture of the old underground, personal peer-to-peer trading, to informal p2p/widespread sharing. A lot of people who had exclusive (kvlt) music were hesitant to share it, but as stuff was shared, often somewhat personally online, the old underground began to build the new underground where some gems with a very spread-out audience that was previously not connected. This began to kill regional scenes, because access to music was no longer centralized around a few people who had access. This also allowed for the unique culture of connecting like I mentioned before - to pick an MA favorite, Dark Descent was able to re-release and promote Timeghoul's music so well because of how the new underground connects fans to music and its syndicates. Successful underground labels have a sparse and geographically widespread audience who they connect to by making their name a brand of quality through re-releases of exhumed old material, older bands who are still around, and newer bands who fit the same appeal - they help connect a small group of fans to music, and through online networking, each other.

The metal community is excellent right now.

Have you read the Metal Beyond Metal series by Keith Khan-Harris? One of his central points is exactly what you describe, that the massive abundance of easily-accessible (and extremely high-quality) music is causing the scene to splinter off into groups, where certain groups become specialized by certain subgenres. His take is much less positive/optimistic than yours, though.

My opinion on it is mixed, though it's more positive than negative. Locally, I see that the death/black metal shows (of which there aren't many) attract a slightly different crowd than the stoner doom shows (of which there are slightly more), and the bands would benefit more if there was more overlap. But I don't think I would trade that for the ease of accessibility of all this music, especially since so much of it is high-quality.

Frank Booth wrote:
It's still very prevalent around here. I live near Western Massachusetts, AKA the birthplace of pop-metalcore, and there's a pretty staggering amount of pop-metalcore and deathcore around here, and most of the kids who listen to it are pretty much exactly as I described. I've tried to give them the benefit of the doubt so many times, but most of them do absolutely nothing to defy my expectations.

Fellow western MA resident here. While I wasn't around for the underground heydays of Aftershock or Overcast (I wasn't even aware of Killswitch Engage until The End of Heartache came out), I always got the impression that the metalcore scene around here was more closely aligned culturally with hardcore than with metal. It might be because metal pretty much rejected metalcore from the beginning, as others have noted, but I also knew some hardcore fans from back in the day that were bitching about The End of Heartache being "too metal."

In any case, I've known plenty of shitty pop metalcore musicians who couldn't tell you anything about Judas Priest but could go on for ages about Blood For Blood or Donnybrook. So if they don't know anything about metal, it's probably because they've never considered themselves part of our scene.

Top
 Profile  
Arkhane
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:39 pm
Posts: 1820
Location: South Texas
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:00 pm 
 

Or the scene is just evolving and the younger kids are taking inspiration from newer bands instead of being stuck in the 80's. The older guys don't understand it because they didn't grow up around it and it just sounds different than what they thought was good 20 years ago.

As for the OP, it depends who you are focusing on. The younger guys will always be trying to prove themselves and thus starting fights and name-calling or "genre wars" and the men and women who have been around plenty of times are usually the chilled out people who just see it for what it is, but also are just there to have a good time because they realized they don't need to prove anything. There is no physical "brotherhood". That's just a delusion. This isn't Insane Clown Posse and their primitive "juggalo" following or whatever you want to call that shit.
_________________
Follow me on Facebook

Top
 Profile  
Frank Booth
Can Bench 450

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:25 pm 
 

Arkhane wrote:
Or the scene is just evolving and the younger kids are taking inspiration from newer bands instead of being stuck in the 80's. The older guys don't understand it because they didn't grow up around it and it just sounds different than what they thought was good 20 years ago.

As for the OP, it depends who you are focusing on. The younger guys will always be trying to prove themselves and thus starting fights and name-calling or "genre wars" and the men and women who have been around plenty of times are usually the chilled out people who just see it for what it is, but also are just there to have a good time because they realized they don't need to prove anything. There is no physical "brotherhood". That's just a delusion. This isn't Insane Clown Posse and their primitive "juggalo" following or whatever you want to call that shit.


Well, kids were taking inspiration from the eighties for a while, and I don't miss all the horrible pizza thrash acts that followed.

Top
 Profile  
Arkhane
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:39 pm
Posts: 1820
Location: South Texas
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:50 am 
 

That's the second reference to pizza and Thrash that I've had today. Have I never heard of this or something? :lol:
_________________
Follow me on Facebook

Top
 Profile  
rexxz
Where's your band?

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 9094
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:38 am 
 

Image
_________________
Hexenkraft - diabolical cyberpunk darksynth
Cosmic Atrophy - extradimensional death metal

Top
 Profile  
Arkhane
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:39 pm
Posts: 1820
Location: South Texas
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:52 am 
 

I don't really know what to say to that.....
_________________
Follow me on Facebook

Top
 Profile  
VariedTastes
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:24 pm
Posts: 140
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:36 am 
 

Other than that you want to buy one of those shirts?

Yeah, me neither.
_________________
http://vtmetalreviews.blogspot.com/ Updated 2/11/14

Top
 Profile  
Samoroth
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:59 pm
Posts: 342
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:01 am 
 

I'm 20 and it's always refreshing when you encounter someone in their 20s who is also a huge Bathory, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Blasphemy etc fan. Music like this will never die out, it might only be forced deeper into the underground, which isn't a bad thing. I'll get concerned when hipsters, emo's and other trendy groups suddenly become huge fans of these bands. Let them Worship shitty pseudo (black) metal bands like Deafheaven.

I mean, there is nothing wrong with elitism, for as long as you are capable of having a civilised discussion. It's trendy these days to be 'open minded' just for the sake of it. Many people pride themselves in having an 'eclectic' taste, which I more see as the lack of identity. My taste is pretty varied. Besides metal (favorite genres being black metal and funeral/death doom) I also listen to alot of other things, it's just that in I can be pretty strict about what I consider real metal bands and what not, and bands like Deafheaven are not what I see as metal progressing, but rather as 'metal' music made by people who aren't real metal fans for people who aren't real metal fans. For example, when you look at Deafheaven fans on last.fm, you will see on their profiles that most of them barely listen to metal, but to all kinds of hipster music, and the annoying this about is, that they suddenly get opinions on for example black metal, and think they actually know something about it when they try to lecture people about it. To me, these are the kind of people I'd rather have out. Not because they are not real metal fans, but because they are smartmouths who just aren't enough into it to be able to form valuable and coherent opinions.

Top
 Profile  
Frank Booth
Can Bench 450

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:44 pm 
 

Arkhane wrote:
That's the second reference to pizza and Thrash that I've had today. Have I never heard of this or something? :lol:


It was a term coined by one of the members of Sonic Pulse (which is ironic, as they pretty much are that label) used to describe goofy retro-thrash ala Lich King, but it's generally used to refer to dime-a-dozen Exodus/Slayer/Anthrax/Nuclear Assault clones who reuse the same few riffs again and again while writing about nothing but beer, zombies, partying, killing posers, and 80s action movies.

Top
 Profile  
Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35183
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:00 pm 
 

Samoroth wrote:
I'm 20 and it's always refreshing when you encounter someone in their 20s who is also a huge Bathory, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Blasphemy etc fan. Music like this will never die out, it might only be forced deeper into the underground, which isn't a bad thing. I'll get concerned when hipsters, emo's and other trendy groups suddenly become huge fans of these bands. Let them Worship shitty pseudo (black) metal bands like Deafheaven.

I mean, there is nothing wrong with elitism, for as long as you are capable of having a civilised discussion. It's trendy these days to be 'open minded' just for the sake of it. Many people pride themselves in having an 'eclectic' taste, which I more see as the lack of identity. My taste is pretty varied. Besides metal (favorite genres being black metal and funeral/death doom) I also listen to alot of other things, it's just that in I can be pretty strict about what I consider real metal bands and what not, and bands like Deafheaven are not what I see as metal progressing, but rather as 'metal' music made by people who aren't real metal fans for people who aren't real metal fans. For example, when you look at Deafheaven fans on last.fm, you will see on their profiles that most of them barely listen to metal, but to all kinds of hipster music, and the annoying this about is, that they suddenly get opinions on for example black metal, and think they actually know something about it when they try to lecture people about it. To me, these are the kind of people I'd rather have out. Not because they are not real metal fans, but because they are smartmouths who just aren't enough into it to be able to form valuable and coherent opinions.


Ironically this mindset is what's wrong with the metal scene. Having a sense of what's good and what's bad is great, and on a musical level it's important. The whole perception of 'hipster' music and the prejudice against it makes black metal fans in particular look like a bunch of douchebags. This in particular:

Quote:
bands like Deafheaven are not what I see as metal progressing, but rather as 'metal' music made by people who aren't real metal fans for people who aren't real metal fans.


Comes off as juvenile as hell, and not really productive at all - it's just a vague speculation and nothing more. It has nothing to do with the actual music. Funny enough it's usually black metal fans who say stuff like this, which leads me to believe black metal fans are often just as bad or much worse than the hipster fans they're bitching about. Who really cares if a bunch of so-called "hipsters" (a term I'm sure metalheads use far too broadly) like some fringe bands like Deafheaven? There will be people like that in any hobby you get into.
_________________
Cinema Freaks latest reviews: Black Roses
Fictional Works - if you hated my reviews over the years then pay me back by reviewing my own stuff
Official Website

Top
 Profile  
Yayattasa
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 am
Posts: 858
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:21 pm 
 

Samoroth wrote:
I'm 20 and it's always refreshing when you encounter someone in their 20s who is also a huge Bathory, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Blasphemy etc fan. Music like this will never die out, it might only be forced deeper into the underground, which isn't a bad thing. I'll get concerned when hipsters, emo's and other trendy groups suddenly become huge fans of these bands. Let them Worship shitty pseudo (black) metal bands like Deafheaven.

I mean, there is nothing wrong with elitism, for as long as you are capable of having a civilised discussion. It's trendy these days to be 'open minded' just for the sake of it. Many people pride themselves in having an 'eclectic' taste, which I more see as the lack of identity. My taste is pretty varied. Besides metal (favorite genres being black metal and funeral/death doom) I also listen to alot of other things, it's just that in I can be pretty strict about what I consider real metal bands and what not, and bands like Deafheaven are not what I see as metal progressing, but rather as 'metal' music made by people who aren't real metal fans for people who aren't real metal fans. For example, when you look at Deafheaven fans on last.fm, you will see on their profiles that most of them barely listen to metal, but to all kinds of hipster music, and the annoying this about is, that they suddenly get opinions on for example black metal, and think they actually know something about it when they try to lecture people about it. To me, these are the kind of people I'd rather have out. Not because they are not real metal fans, but because they are smartmouths who just aren't enough into it to be able to form valuable and coherent opinions.


Oh the irony! Talks about hipsters; acts like a hipster.
_________________
FasterDisaster wrote:
You have to be a real kind of special to break your own neck headbanging.
Diamhea wrote:
I refuse to give metalsucks any web traffic.

Top
 Profile  
Smoking_Gnu
Chicago Favorite

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:22 pm
Posts: 4797
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:30 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Comes off as juvenile as hell, and not really productive at all - it's just a vague speculation and nothing more. It has nothing to do with the actual music. Funny enough it's usually black metal fans who say stuff like this, which leads me to believe black metal fans are often just as bad or much worse than the hipster fans they're bitching about. Who really cares if a bunch of so-called "hipsters" (a term I'm sure metalheads use far too broadly) like some fringe bands like Deafheaven? There will be people like that in any hobby you get into.


This just makes me think of deathmetal.org using "frappuccino-drinking" or some variation thereof in almost every single review of an allegedly "hipster" metal band. Oy.
_________________
Hexenmacht46290 wrote:
Slayer are not as uneducated as people think, some of them did know how to read.

Top
 Profile  
Samoroth
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:59 pm
Posts: 342
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:53 pm 
 

Come on boys. I am not the one who is being ignorant here. It's ignorant to think you know everything about black metal when the only thing you listen to that that comes even remotely close to black metal is Deafheaven, just as it's ignorant to think you know everything about thrash metal when the only thrash band you can name is Metallica (probably while Load is your favorite Metallica album).

Top
 Profile  
inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 5634
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:34 pm 
 

Well whether we use a slur like frappucino drinking hipsters or not doesn't really matter to the fact that there is a growing trend of bands who basically play indie rock with distortion and shrieks selling themselves as black metal. Then there are people like my own brother who never liked black metal but now think they do because they discovered these wannabe black metal bands which conveniently are also a lot more accessible than proper black metal (due to their obvious pop sensibilities).

At the very least it's freaking annoying for a black metal enthusiast like me, especially when these people say asinine shit like "hipster [as a prefix for black metal] is synonymous with open minded" (my brother). The thing is that metal is very open minded in the proper sense of the word: open for ways of thinking that are incompatible with the conventions of mainstream society. Rock/pop on the other hand is constrained by these conventions as long as it wants to sell itself as a product - which is the very essence of modern popular music. If we want black metal to be an artistic movement that is not dumbed down by the desire to sell a product I feel that we have to make it clear that pop/rock music and black metal are mutually exclusive entities, and that we should keep it that way. So I guess I have to agree with Samoroth in that regard.
_________________
Under_Starmere wrote:
iHumanism: Philosophy phoned in.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

Top
 Profile  
Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35183
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:51 pm 
 

The only way black metal is "an artistic movement not dumbed down" is if every other metal genre also is - I just have to roll my eyes when people try to act like BM is some kind of holy-grail genre that is so much better than anything else. That along with the whole hipster fascination really makes up a whole cauldron brew of lame. BM has some great bands, and at its best can be very artistic - but it's just another subgenre in metal that is full of good bands of many different types. Though I'm sure you, inhumanist, wouldn't exactly disagree there anyway...and I understand that one's favorite genre does tend to make them emotional. So there is that.
_________________
Cinema Freaks latest reviews: Black Roses
Fictional Works - if you hated my reviews over the years then pay me back by reviewing my own stuff
Official Website

Top
 Profile  
BasqueStorm
The Wettest Blanket

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 4793
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:09 pm 
 

ApochWeiss wrote:
Back in 2000...

Metal (and what we call metal) is more diverse now and divided in groups (subgenres, scenes,...) but you should try to enjoy and learn from it without bitchin too much.
Anyway, you're right! Idiots EVERYWHERE! LOL!
Just joking! Try to get older enjoying what you do and the people around you.
P.S: Sorry, I didn't read all the thread.

Top
 Profile  
inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 5634
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:25 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
The only way black metal is "an artistic movement not dumbed down" is if every other metal genre also is - I just have to roll my eyes when people try to act like BM is some kind of holy-grail genre that is so much better than anything else. That along with the whole hipster fascination really makes up a whole cauldron brew of lame. BM has some great bands, and at its best can be very artistic - but it's just another subgenre in metal that is full of good bands of many different types. Though I'm sure you, inhumanist, wouldn't exactly disagree there anyway...and I understand that one's favorite genre does tend to make them emotional. So there is that.

Well I don't think it should be hermetic. One reason why black metal (or any one of the core metal genres) is great is that it utilizes many different influences from outside of metal. Some of the best black metal draws heavily from folk and ambient for example. Metal probably wouldn't exist without its horror music genes. But I also think that at its essence, which is the source of what makes it great, metal is completely antithetical to popular music. And that in the grand scheme of things, metal's evolution is a path away from popular music. And that metal's greatest landmarks draw their excellence from the fact that they helped form metal's own identity through increased emancipation from these roots. So when I see a growing trend of music that reverses this process and calls it innovation it's not something I'm gonna cheer at.
_________________
Under_Starmere wrote:
iHumanism: Philosophy phoned in.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?


Last edited by inhumanist on Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Top
 Profile  
Yayattasa
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 am
Posts: 858
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:31 pm 
 

I wouldn't call shoegaze popular music. It's popular with hipsters, which is kinda paradoxal, I guess. So I'm predicting hipsters will get over shoegaze soon.
_________________
FasterDisaster wrote:
You have to be a real kind of special to break your own neck headbanging.
Diamhea wrote:
I refuse to give metalsucks any web traffic.

Top
 Profile  
inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 5634
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:38 pm 
 

Yeah maybe I should specify that by popular music I mean the 20th century tradition of commercially viable lowest-common-denominator music, and every modern genre that doesn't deviate too far from the conventions set by it.

Not just simply music that is very popular.
_________________
Under_Starmere wrote:
iHumanism: Philosophy phoned in.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

Top
 Profile  
severzhavnost
Something Stupid

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
Posts: 2952
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:55 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
The thing is that metal is very open minded in the proper sense of the word: open for ways of thinking that are incompatible with the conventions of mainstream society. Rock/pop on the other hand is constrained by these conventions as long as it wants to sell itself as a product - which is the very essence of modern popular music. If we want black metal to be an artistic movement that is not dumbed down by the desire to sell a product I feel that we have to make it clear that pop/rock music and black metal are mutually exclusive entities, and that we should keep it that way. So I guess I have to agree with Samoroth in that regard.


Nailed it. Open-minded has come to mean "you must tolerate everything without judgment." It's getting to the point where any form of judgment couldn't possibly be based on quality; it must mean you're a backward elitist. Humbug on it! Metal has nothing to gain in the openness department, from borrowing elements that have already been worn out by popular genres - where ironically, these features are considered standard rather than forward-thinking to begin with!
_________________
rejected review wrote:
Have you ever had Kimchi Waffle?
Kimchi Waffle was made by World Institute of Kimchi in South Korea.
It’s so powerful that your stomachs will damn.
Bulgogi Kimchi Bibimbap waffle burger! Holy shit! litterally shit!

Top
 Profile  
true_death
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:47 pm
Posts: 2390
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:06 pm 
 

I think the whole Deafheaven situation is really just a sign of the "indie" scene branching out into other styles. From what I can tell, the indie scene has branched out into hip-hop and hardcore as well, but I don't think either genre has been so resistant of it. I have never heard Deafheaven's music, but I read an interview to see if they were really these intellectual hipster types...the guy came across as being pretty down-to-earth, and said "In the Nightside Eclipse" is one of his favorite albums of all time.

All in all, I would say I have a problem with elitism, but not because people don't like X or Y band...it's just people who won't shut up about it and feel the need to flood sites like Blabbermouth, day after day, with comments about how Black Veil Brides are "gay". It's like someone said earlier, a "vocal minority", but nonetheless I think it really ruins the whole vibe to the point that from what I can tell, there is a greater abundance of "metal elitists" than the so-called "posers"!
_________________
"My lifestyle, determines my deathstyle"

Top
 Profile  
Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
Posts: 9311
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:19 pm 
 

I wouldn't call people flooding message boards with "so and so are gay" comments elitists, but rather bored children. It's annoying if you have to read or listen to it but is pretty damn normal all across the board. If there's any specific link between this type of behaviour and metal, it's tenuous at best, but can probably be explained by supposing that as metal fans, we tend to be loud and brash about our views, rather like the music we like.
_________________
Hush! and hark
To the sorrowful cry
Of the wind in the dark.
Hush and hark, without murmur or sigh,
To shoon that tread the lost aeons:
To the sound that bids you to die.

Top
 Profile  
Arkhane
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:39 pm
Posts: 1820
Location: South Texas
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:12 am 
 

I'm gonna be the one to admit, that regardless of their individual interests or whatever the argument is against Deafheaven, I just found them I think a week or two ago on a thread about bad live shows, and I find their music to be quite captivating even though I haven't yet given them a full and proper listen.

Quote:
...it's tenuous at best, but can probably be explained by supposing that as metal fans, we tend to be loud and brash about our views, rather like the music we like.

Yea, this statement makes a lot of sense, but at the same time it only covers a very small portion of a very wide phenomena. This abrasive, "Agree with me or fuck you" attitude doesn't just describe metal fans or even fans of any one particular genre, for that matter. This is the entire music industry and fanbase. Sure most people are mature about it and can handle quite a bit of criticism to their tastes, but there's always some group of kids out there who feel like they have to prove themselves, or I guess in a really aggressive manner, assert themselves and let the world know that they like this particular type of music and nothing else for the time being. Coming from such a standpoint, it's more of a "planting your feet here and settling down so you can grow" thing with kids. This is the reason why born-again Christians are so radical, and anyone getting introduced into something they eventually really take to heart. I'm not trying to say this type of behavior is justified in anyway, so don't read me the wrong way.
_________________
Follow me on Facebook

Top
 Profile  
PvtNinjer
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:45 am
Posts: 4008
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:13 am 
 

In regards to the whole "hipster black metal" thing... I just find that caring about it so much is really immature. Why should you care if someone thinks they are into black metal because they listened to Deafheaven and Liturgy? You can still be passionate about the music you love without having to act like a soldier protecting your subgenre from foreign invaders. That's fine if you don't like these bands, you can even call them shit, if you like, but saying it's annoying that someone might consider themselves a black metal fan after listening to Deafheaven is ridiculously immature. It has nothing to do with accepting everything without judgement either. It's more so just accepting that you cannot control other people's perception of music and how they identify with it. It's a completely pointless thing to get annoyed about.

Top
 Profile  
kalervon
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:43 pm
Posts: 991
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:07 am 
 

I think internet, not just with its file sharing and online music purchasing, but also with the access to knowledge that comes with it, didn't just change the metal community, but any community built around artistic genres or sub-genres. Encyclopedic knowledge on anything is available now, whether it is the origins and lifestyles of "flappers in the roaring 1920s", dadaists, beatniks, Russian nihilists, etc; delta Mississippi blues, 1950s garage bands, etc.

With that kind of knowledge around, a certain type of people (who always existed I assume in constant proportion) will tend to, after exposure of some sort, gravitate towards a subgenre, and after learning enough about it, adopt a purist attitude. This explains a 20 year-old person born in 1994 saying his favorite bands are Hellhammer, Bathory, early Celtic Frost, etc. The person in question probably does know those bands very well, but the reason he likes these bands more than any other band is probably strongly influenced by the fact they read somewhere that these are the bands you don't mess with; these are the bands acknowledged as founders of the genre at a time when there were mostly posers around, and their music was made under harsh and raw conditions; etc. At least, the reasons why he was able to narrow it down to those bands is through information of the encyclopedic kind.

I don't blame anyone for thinking that way, but I just think it is something relatively new, as before, getting to know an obscure band's catalog took quite a lot of money, and sometimes was just impossible. So I think this is probably one thing that changed the metal community, like it changed many other communities. One can be a 15 year old self-taught expert in blues history and bitch and complain about Stevie Ray Vaughn's music being too formulaic and having no soul whatsoever; or a 15 year-old saying that Carcass sold out with Necroticism..

The tendencies are not new, I remember being convinced that Led Zeppelin were great, way before I heard them, because they were a legend. But I didn't (couldn't) know everything that one could know about them, or the bands who influenced them, and the obscure tracks they had done, to proclaim myself an elitist purist of anything. It's the technology which allows these tendencies to fully manifest. There are more purists around these days.
_________________
No, we are not living in a dream, and don't call me Shirley.

Top
 Profile  
Frank Booth
Can Bench 450

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:11 am 
 

PvtNinjer wrote:
In regards to the whole "hipster black metal" thing... I just find that caring about it so much is really immature. Why should you care if someone thinks they are into black metal because they listened to Deafheaven and Liturgy? You can still be passionate about the music you love without having to act like a soldier protecting your subgenre from foreign invaders. That's fine if you don't like these bands, you can even call them shit, if you like, but saying it's annoying that someone might consider themselves a black metal fan after listening to Deafheaven is ridiculously immature. It has nothing to do with accepting everything without judgement either. It's more so just accepting that you cannot control other people's perception of music and how they identify with it. It's a completely pointless thing to get annoyed about.


It's mostly because it's seen as disingenuous and also because a lot of "hipster black" fans seem to get the idea that they're authorities on black metal when they in fact know virtually nothing about black metal. Read one of Hunter Hunt-Hendrix's retarded manifestos and you'll see what I mean.

Top
 Profile  
Woolie_Wool
Facets of Predictability

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:56 pm
Posts: 2119
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:38 am 
 

Sokaris wrote:
Honestly the scene here is way stronger than it was ten years ago from my perspective. Much higher quality music, more shows, way less drama. That's ranging from high school dudes to guys from the tape-trading days. Things where I'm at are better than ever actually.


I've personally noticed that the amount of bigotry, toxicity, and general douchebaggery has greatly declined and M-A at least is a much friendlier place than it was a few years ago. Maybe it's just the stricter moderation? If so, good on the mods.

Empyreal wrote:
The only way black metal is "an artistic movement not dumbed down" is if every other metal genre also is - I just have to roll my eyes when people try to act like BM is some kind of holy-grail genre that is so much better than anything else. That along with the whole hipster fascination really makes up a whole cauldron brew of lame. BM has some great bands, and at its best can be very artistic - but it's just another subgenre in metal that is full of good bands of many different types. Though I'm sure you, inhumanist, wouldn't exactly disagree there anyway...and I understand that one's favorite genre does tend to make them emotional. So there is that.


I really have little patience for the "my subgenre is more outré than yours" penis-measuring contest, and the worst are people who see metal's subgenres as some linear evolution from "more primitive" to "more advanced" forms, like the creationist idea of evolution. No, harsh vocals are not "more advanced" than clean vocals, they're different and dropping them on top of music written around clean vocals is not an improvement, any more than "Open Face Surgery" would be improved if James LaBrie sang it in his most achingly delicate ballad voice.
_________________
UltraBoris wrote:
who the fuck is UltraBoris?

UltraBoris wrote:
only Dio is real.

Top
 Profile  
PvtNinjer
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:45 am
Posts: 4008
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:24 am 
 

Quote:
It's mostly because it's seen as disingenuous and also because a lot of "hipster black" fans seem to get the idea that they're authorities on black metal when they in fact know virtually nothing about black metal. Read one of Hunter Hunt-Hendrix's retarded manifestos and you'll see what I mean.


So? Does it really effect you that much? I just don't get what the big deal is.

Top
 Profile  
inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 5634
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:05 am 
 

Woolie_Wool wrote:
I really have little patience for the "my subgenre is more outré than yours" penis-measuring contest, and the worst are people who see metal's subgenres as some linear evolution from "more primitive" to "more advanced" forms, like the creationist idea of evolution.

That's a terrible analogy. Biological evolution is based on the laws of nature and therefore arbitrary. Music on the other hand is per se a deliberate creation by conscious beings, and therefore something that can - and does - follow aesthetic ideals.

It seems like I'm adressed here, so I think I have to defend myself. You're building a strawman. I never said that metal is evolving into a "more advanced" artform. I said that metal is realizing itself and becoming "its own thing" rather something simply derived from other things. At the same time I criticized popular music as something essentially corrupt and commercialist, and pointed out that metal has a historical tendency to distance itself from popular music. I also said that this development is a good thing.
_________________
Under_Starmere wrote:
iHumanism: Philosophy phoned in.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

Top
 Profile  
Frank Booth
Can Bench 450

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:29 pm
Posts: 1516
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:48 am 
 

PvtNinjer wrote:
Quote:
It's mostly because it's seen as disingenuous and also because a lot of "hipster black" fans seem to get the idea that they're authorities on black metal when they in fact know virtually nothing about black metal. Read one of Hunter Hunt-Hendrix's retarded manifestos and you'll see what I mean.


So? Does it really effect you that much? I just don't get what the big deal is.


I'm just not overly fond of people deluding themselves into believing that they're something that they're not.

Top
 Profile  
Woolie_Wool
Facets of Predictability

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:56 pm
Posts: 2119
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:13 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Woolie_Wool wrote:
I really have little patience for the "my subgenre is more outré than yours" penis-measuring contest, and the worst are people who see metal's subgenres as some linear evolution from "more primitive" to "more advanced" forms, like the creationist idea of evolution.

That's a terrible analogy. Biological evolution is based on the laws of nature and therefore arbitrary. Music on the other hand is per se a deliberate creation by conscious beings, and therefore something that can - and does - follow aesthetic ideals.

It seems like I'm adressed here, so I think I have to defend myself. You're building a strawman. I never said that metal is evolving into a "more advanced" artform. I said that metal is realizing itself and becoming "its own thing" rather something simply derived from other things. At the same time I criticized popular music as something essentially corrupt and commercialist, and pointed out that metal has a historical tendency to distance itself from popular music. I also said that this development is a good thing.

I was not addressing anyone in particular, and the particular post I was thinking of when I wrote mine was made several months ago in a thread I no longer remember the name of. I've just seen the idea of certain subgenres being more advanced or more worthy than others by being more extreme or "out there", or by being developed more recently, floated several different times by different people.
_________________
UltraBoris wrote:
who the fuck is UltraBoris?

UltraBoris wrote:
only Dio is real.

Top
 Profile  
LVB
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:26 am
Posts: 204
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:24 am 
 

I've never been apart of any scene since I got into Metal in about 1995. Back then I mostly knew only Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Pantera, and whatever else was popular with Metalheads in High School, which was mostly early mallcore stuff. I remember I got into Priest and Maiden all alone without anyone telling me to like them. Later, internet age, I used websites as resources, and never made any friends. I still love Metal today and it has nothing to do with making friends and feeling like I'm a part of some overall community because I'm not. I just listen to the music. For me, that's somehow the point anyways - to actually fucking listen to the music and understand it from the notes on out. I feel the same way about Classical Music and anything else. It's art, not social tools.

Top
 Profile  
invitus
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:24 am
Posts: 81
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:59 am 
 

LVB, in many ways, I'm the same. I shared a few recommendations with friends, talked about it with some people in general and maybe had a couple of internet friends that we shared music with. That's not what this topic is about - metal a big thing, it has a "community" (a hundred fractured communities would be much more precise), and there are things about communities that are worth discussing [to the people involved in them, maybe not so much you or me if I didn't plan on talking to metalheads].

It's my opinion that much like the way music has influences, social convention is build upon previous social convention, and it's very possible for a community to be good in some ways and bad in some others. So it makes sense to talk it out.
_________________
BastardHead wrote:
Using philosophy to judge music is like using physics to judge food.

:)

Top
 Profile  
mike40k
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:27 pm
Posts: 412
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:22 am 
 

I stopped caring about 'the scene' and any idea of brotherhood based soley on liking metal when I grew out of my teenage years (I'm 23 now) and found a lot of metalheads to be little more than drunken assholes. Just enjoy the music and do your own thing. Who gives a shit what other people who happen to like some of the same bands as you are doing?
_________________
Fell Deeds - Crust tinged black metal: https://felldeeds.bandcamp.com

Top
 Profile  
Acidgobblin
Literally a puppy

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:56 pm
Posts: 2549
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:07 am 
 

ApochWeiss wrote:
I've gone to as many shows as I could because of my brothers. I've experienced an insane amount of bands great or otherwise thanks to my brothers. I've grown to develop appreciations for styles and bands I simply couldn't tolerate thanks to my brothers...


Without wanting to sound like a total ass (but probably going to regardless) these great aspects of 'metal brotherhood' that you've mentioned all seem incredibly trivial to me. Its odd that you are now unsatisfied, given that your apparent perception of 'brotherhood' basically consists of people recommending bands to you. That, or this brotherhood was basically non-existent and you've just noticed it.

Sorry, but I think that rose-coloured glasses are completely useless.
_________________
Where the cold winds blow...

Top
 Profile  
PvtNinjer
Metal freak

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:45 am
Posts: 4008
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:32 am 
 

Frank Booth wrote:
I'm just not overly fond of people deluding themselves into believing that they're something that they're not.


It just seems trivial to me. I mean, you think they are deluded, they might think you are elitist or something. Ultimately it makes no difference. It's just so silly considering the subjective nature of music. I guess I just don't put as much stock in that kind of image building as you, or maybe I just don't give much of a shit about it outside of listening to what I think sounds good anymore. But hey, different strokes for different folks, as they say.


Last edited by PvtNinjer on Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
Samoroth
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:59 pm
Posts: 342
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:54 am 
 

kalervon wrote:
I think internet, not just with its file sharing and online music purchasing, but also with the access to knowledge that comes with it, didn't just change the metal community, but any community built around artistic genres or sub-genres. Encyclopedic knowledge on anything is available now, whether it is the origins and lifestyles of "flappers in the roaring 1920s", dadaists, beatniks, Russian nihilists, etc; delta Mississippi blues, 1950s garage bands, etc.

With that kind of knowledge around, a certain type of people (who always existed I assume in constant proportion) will tend to, after exposure of some sort, gravitate towards a subgenre, and after learning enough about it, adopt a purist attitude. This explains a 20 year-old person born in 1994 saying his favorite bands are Hellhammer, Bathory, early Celtic Frost, etc. The person in question probably does know those bands very well, but the reason he likes these bands more than any other band is probably strongly influenced by the fact they read somewhere that these are the bands you don't mess with; these are the bands acknowledged as founders of the genre at a time when there were mostly posers around, and their music was made under harsh and raw conditions; etc. At least, the reasons why he was able to narrow it down to those bands is through information of the encyclopedic kind.

I don't blame anyone for thinking that way, but I just think it is something relatively new, as before, getting to know an obscure band's catalog took quite a lot of money, and sometimes was just impossible. So I think this is probably one thing that changed the metal community, like it changed many other communities. One can be a 15 year old self-taught expert in blues history and bitch and complain about Stevie Ray Vaughn's music being too formulaic and having no soul whatsoever; or a 15 year-old saying that Carcass sold out with Necroticism..

The tendencies are not new, I remember being convinced that Led Zeppelin were great, way before I heard them, because they were a legend. But I didn't (couldn't) know everything that one could know about them, or the bands who influenced them, and the obscure tracks they had done, to proclaim myself an elitist purist of anything. It's the technology which allows these tendencies to fully manifest. There are more purists around these days.


Wow, you must be really full of yourself. 20 year olds are born in 1993 for most; )

Also, who are you to judge if someone actually knows and listens to these bands? Do you know me? You don't, so I friendly advise you not to make any (stupid) assumptions anymore.

Top
 Profile  
Von Jugel
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:49 am
Posts: 275
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:05 am 
 

Samoroth wrote:
kalervon wrote:
I think internet, not just with its file sharing and online music purchasing, but also with the access to knowledge that comes with it, didn't just change the metal community, but any community built around artistic genres or sub-genres. Encyclopedic knowledge on anything is available now, whether it is the origins and lifestyles of "flappers in the roaring 1920s", dadaists, beatniks, Russian nihilists, etc; delta Mississippi blues, 1950s garage bands, etc.

With that kind of knowledge around, a certain type of people (who always existed I assume in constant proportion) will tend to, after exposure of some sort, gravitate towards a subgenre, and after learning enough about it, adopt a purist attitude. This explains a 20 year-old person born in 1994 saying his favorite bands are Hellhammer, Bathory, early Celtic Frost, etc. The person in question probably does know those bands very well, but the reason he likes these bands more than any other band is probably strongly influenced by the fact they read somewhere that these are the bands you don't mess with; these are the bands acknowledged as founders of the genre at a time when there were mostly posers around, and their music was made under harsh and raw conditions; etc. At least, the reasons why he was able to narrow it down to those bands is through information of the encyclopedic kind.

I don't blame anyone for thinking that way, but I just think it is something relatively new, as before, getting to know an obscure band's catalog took quite a lot of money, and sometimes was just impossible. So I think this is probably one thing that changed the metal community, like it changed many other communities. One can be a 15 year old self-taught expert in blues history and bitch and complain about Stevie Ray Vaughn's music being too formulaic and having no soul whatsoever; or a 15 year-old saying that Carcass sold out with Necroticism..

The tendencies are not new, I remember being convinced that Led Zeppelin were great, way before I heard them, because they were a legend. But I didn't (couldn't) know everything that one could know about them, or the bands who influenced them, and the obscure tracks they had done, to proclaim myself an elitist purist of anything. It's the technology which allows these tendencies to fully manifest. There are more purists around these days.


Wow, you must be really full of yourself. 20 year olds are born in 1993 for most; )

Also, who are you to judge if someone actually knows and listens to these bands? Do you know me? You don't, so I friendly advise you not to make any (stupid) assumptions anymore.


It doesn't sound like you read or understood what he wrote. It was the least judgemental post on the thread.

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: hallowed78 and 77 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

  Print view
Jump to:  

Back to the Encyclopaedia Metallum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group