Pretty asinine opinions and way of expressing them there.

But don't you know, Emp? If you don't like them the same way HE likes them, then you must not actually like them at all! When people say they're consistent, they must certainly not mean that they always write music with a similar mindset and execution of continually high quality, they must actually just be parroting something some random dude said once.

Nebster's custom title should be "has it all figured out".

I love how Nebster gets his panties in a twist because STAHP LIKING WUT I DONT LIKE DAMMIT!!!!11!!!1 Talk about presenting yourself as an insightful connoisseur

Besides, Litany is their best album. If you're gonna get all pissy and call us idiots by citing Vader's greatest record, might as well get it right!

F

Yeah, De Profundis is a much better record than Litany, just use your ears.

I nominate this to be Nebster's new custom title.


So he's wrong for having an opinion that's well thought out and shared by many die-hard fans? Okay. Also, if he repeatedly listens to De Profundis as you have recommended, wouldn't that make him sick of it eventually? And if he gets sick of it, wouldn't that make his opinion of the lessen? Seems like you didn't think your argument through.

G

De Profundis really isn't one of the better Vader albums.

I just can't understand how some people don't understand that taste is subjective, as is perception of art. Seriously, how can someone say "you're wrong if you think otherwise" when it comes to something that each person will view (or in this case listen to) differently?!

So yeah, you prefer De Profundis over a lot of other stuff. People do so otherwise. What's your fucking problem? That your own vision of the world can't find any acceptance?! Fucking deal with it!

And to those stating "oh no, it's Litany over De Profundis for sure", well yeah it is, for you (and me as well). But that's not like it's some universal truth. Get over it you guys!

Black To the Blind had a thicker guitar tone than their first two full length albums did. Really, most of Vader's material has had a needling quality to the guitar tone, rather than a sledgehammer. The first few releases even have a bit of an ethereal feel. Honestly, I think Black To the Blind wouldn't work as well with the production of Revelations. What Black... lacks is overall bass presence, though. There's just no low end in the recording, from the bass, to the drums, to even Peter's vocals. Listen to the XXV re-records of the Black... material with the bass on like -5 or -6 and what I'm saying will make sense.

H

Oh yes, you're clearly showing who's the grown up here.

Well, yeah, it is valid. As androdion stated, it's all subjective. "One man's trash is another man's treasure."

Also, you sound just as whiny as the people you're imitating.

The worst part about this is that De Profundis actually is Vader's best album, but Nebby here is taking it to such an absurd and abrasive extreme that I almost want to dislike it out of spite.

I have listened to De Profundis plenty of times, and you know what? Litany's still my favourite. Wanna know why? Because I like it better. I don't know what's so complicated about that. I prefer the songwriting there, as I believe that it's a better demonstration of Vader's strengths, and the musicianship and production compliment that. There's nothing wrong with De Profundis, but I don't really think of it as a transcendent piece of music. Hell, I don't think of Vader in general as transcendent. I love them, but that's not one of the reasons I do so.

Also, just how fucking high is your horse that you say I'm wrong because I don't like De Profundis as much as you do? Seriously, get a bloody reality check.

Yeah, I might've gone straight to fundamentalist mode there for a second. Still, it's not without reason that Litany's generally considered their best record, and I'm happy to back that up

Meh, I think the finest Vader material is the Revelations period (Reign Forever World, Revelations, Blood), The Art of War EP and Welcome to the Morbid Reich. So eh, De Profundis and Litany, while good albums, can both sit in the back seat for me.

De Profundis IS Vader's best. The rest range from ok to really good.

For my money, Vader’s unholy trinity is De Profundis, Litany and Revelations with everything else ranging from great to brilliant.
As for Vader being “transcendental” at ANY point in their career? No.

I

Wait, what? You talk a lot on nonsense, man.

I dig the new album a lot, it has loads of great riffing. Only thing is the vocals sound hilarious and derpy. But I haven't listened to Vader in years so they might always have been like that. Solid, solid stuff.

Which is exactly why I prefer it. I look to other bands when I want stuff with more flow and a bigger scope, but Vader is one of my first options when it comes to pummeling, no frills death metal, and I like most of their output because it tends to embody those qualities perfectly. You also mentioned The Ultimate Incantation, which I think of as a half-baked attempt at hybridizing Morbid Angel and Slayer, so we're definitely on different pages when it comes to what Vader does best.

Say what you want about De Profundis. I won't be changing my mind any time soon.

I really love De Profundis and is definitely my favourite album, but be honest, there is not really a bad Vader album. Still Doc is the best Vader drummer if you ask me and that change in drumming style kinda pushed Vader in a slightly different direction if you ask me. But I am very drum orientated so I can't really start a discussion based on different instruments.

Exactly. If he were expressing himself like a humble metalhead then I might actually go listen to the album again to see if I agree with him. But when someone's being just plain arrogant and off-putting, I don't even care about the argument or whether he's right or not. I guess that's something an entire board can learn from, not just Nebster.

But on to TEI. I bought their last album expecting just solid DM like 'Impressions' or 'Necropolis' and what I got was something fucking awesome, so of course I'll be picking this one up too. Before I do though, I've already noticed a few things. First, the songs I'm previewing are great, and on a lighter note, this is the first Vader album I've seen without a weird or funny song title! It's like some unspoken tradition has been broken with.
I'm not ripping on them, but when I think about it every previous Vader disc had at least one:

Welcome: I Am Who Feasts Upon Your Soul
Necropolis: Devilizer, Summoning the Futura
Impressions: Hell-elujah!!! (and with that album font I thought I read Field of Deads...it was Heads, dammit)
The Beast: Apopheniac
Revelations: Lukewarm Race, Revelation of Black Moses
Litany: Xeper, Cold Demons
Blind: Beast Raping
De Profundis: Of Moon, Blood, Dream, and Me
Ultimate: Demon's Wind

What I hate about De Profundis is that it has a bad cover, yet the best they could do for the inside is a band photo? Never cared for Vader's lyrics, would be nice to have had something besides a half assed insert.

Old Vader is great, no doubt about it; especially De profundis. But with The Ultimate Incantation and somewhat less so for the aforementioned second album, the band had not really found their own sound and identity yet. While their raw deaththrash beginnings shouldn't be discounted (especially since they've brought back a lot of that sound over the years), it's clear their early LPs owed a lot to the US death metal sound, and were especially indebted to Morbid Angel. I'm almost willing to bet that if you asked Peter, he would say that Altars of Madness showed them to play faster, and tighter. Every subsequent album from the band has been an attempt to collect and formulate a wide swath of influences throughout the metal spectrum into something Vader can call their own, and for the most part, I feel they have succeeded admirably. While it's true that a song like "Hexenkessel" would not really work in the De Profundis days, there's no denying that it sounds distinctly Vader, and also that the band does not disrespect their past in any way by delivering their current formula. Witness how they continually cover both their own songs and those of their greatest inspirations. A fan of new Vader is just as likely to know the song "Blood of Kingu" as he is any of the tunes on their recent studio albums, given its top-rate rerecording and clear way in which it fits into the band's uevre. Have they simplified their song structures? Yeah, probably somewhat. But I have observed that is a pretty natural trait among bands; one needn't see it as a negative trait all the time but rather take every case individually. It's not an indication of a lack of ambition or artistic integrity, even if one doesn't necessarily approve of the change in a purely sonic sense. On the contrary, it can be viewed as a sign of a band with years of experience under their belt, who knows what works and what doesn't in the live environment, but also as a result of lineup changes within the fold, which could mean that the exact chemistry and impuets that led the band to at one time create linear compositions that flowed according to an idea (read lyrics, if you want) rather than standard cycles (verse, chorus, etc) would simply become confusing and unemotional to the current lineup. That's not to say they couldn't play the songs (and they do play some of them, in fact), but rather that the mindset has changed somewhat. For worse or better, you decide. I will say that although an album like Litany has its moments for sure ("The One Made of Dreams" was a real favourite), it doesn't really come close to De Profundis in mightiness for me, and certainly the band has done better records since...this new one being a prime example, in fact.

Old Vader is great, no doubt about it; especially De profundis. But with The Ultimate Incantation and somewhat less so for the aforementioned second album, the band had not really found their own sound and identity yet. While their raw deaththrash beginnings shouldn't be discounted (especially since they've brought back a lot of that sound over the years), it's clear their early LPs owed a lot to the US death metal sound, and were especially indebted to Morbid Angel. I'm almost willing to bet that if you asked Peter, he would say that Altars of Madness showed them to play faster, and tighter. Every subsequent album from the band has been an attempt to collect and formulate a wide swath of influences throughout the metal spectrum into something Vader can call their own, and for the most part, I feel they have succeeded admirably. While it's true that a song like "Hexenkessel" would not really work in the De Profundis days, there's no denying that it sounds distinctly Vader, and also that the band does not disrespect their past in any way by delivering their current formula. Witness how they continually cover both their own songs and those of their greatest inspirations. A fan of new Vader is just as likely to know the song "Blood of Kingu" as he is any of the tunes on their recent studio albums, given its top-rate rerecording and clear way in which it fits into the band's uevre. Have they simplified their song structures? Yeah, probably somewhat. But I have observed that is a pretty natural trait among bands; one needn't see it as a negative trait all the time but rather take every case individually. It's not an indication of a lack of ambition or artistic integrity, even if one doesn't necessarily approve of the change in a purely sonic sense. On the contrary, it can be viewed as a sign of a band with years of experience under their belt, who knows what works and what doesn't in the live environment, but also as a result of lineup changes within the fold, which could mean that the exact chemistry and impuets that led the band to at one time create linear compositions that flowed according to an idea (read lyrics, if you want) rather than standard cycles (verse, chorus, etc) would simply become confusing and unemotional to the current lineup. That's not to say they couldn't play the songs (and they do play some of them, in fact), but rather that the mindset has changed somewhat. For worse or better, you decide. I will say that although an album like Litany has its moments for sure ("The One Made of Dreams" was a real favourite), it doesn't really come close to De Profundis in mightiness for me, and certainly the band has done better records since...this new one being a prime example, in fact.

J

So bands are best when they haven't had any experience performing or writing music? I must give you credit, I thought the MRA comments on an article about rape would be the stupidest thing I read all day. Surprisingly, it seems that you are challenging that position.

Allow me to rephrase; I don't care much for De Profundis or The Ultimate Incantation, because I think there are other, better examples of that very style of death metal, and I'd rather listen to those when I'm in the mood for such a thing. And what do you care if I deprive myself of whatever you consider "good metal"? Who appointed you judge here?

Dude, that's a totally valid opinion. Lots of bands are best for the first few albums because the members are young and energetic. Then they get older and "more mature," which is another way of saying "boring." Not all the time, but there are plenty of bands for which this is true. Heard the latest Metallica song, for example? Wooopeee, experience!

Isn't "more mature" what they called Metallica's writing on Ride the Lightning and Master of Puppets, both of which are their best albums and praised as classics? In addition, there are tons of bands who have released some of their best work after their first few albums. Thin Lizzy and Type O Negative, for example. Of course, taste is subjective and you may not agree.

Metal is best when the songwriting is good. Pharaoh's recent two albums, which are about as mature and polished as metal can get, are just as much a pinnacle of the genre as something like old Sabbath or Venom where there's not much finesse at all. It's just about writing great songs at the end of the day, with conviction.

Well, yeah. And as you pointed out, that can happen later in bands' careers. But first albums can also demonstrate good songwriting. There's no real correlation between how long a band's been around and how their songwriting ability fluctuates.

Old Sabbath hasn't got much finesse? Wash yer freaking ears, Emp.

I'd say the debut doesn't have a lot of finesse and that's part of its charm, but something like Sabbath Bloody Sabbath sure does, and it's their best album in my view.

Metal is best when the songwriting is good...empyreal has got it. Theoretically bands should peak after their first album. Then it usually levels off a bit. Of course it is true that the fresh, young and vibrant are an esential part of this genre, but it's always slightly disappointing on a conceptual level to find that the first album or two of a band are the best it has to offer. Naturally, as I always say, you have to take each artist on his own terms and not make blanket statements like "metal is best when it's not mature". I certainly could never imagine anyone in a touring band really believing such a thing to be true. Experience is a good thing for practitioners, and hopefully results in a positive time for listeners, too. There's a difference between having experience and burning out.

Just saw them live and it was an absolutely crushing experience. The unbelievable precision and neck-destroying intensity, good god. 2 songs from the new album and they went over really well. Though they did pale a little because they were played in between Fractal Light and Silent Empire.

The really, really old shit like the debut and Master of Reality certainly wasn't exactly polished. I think it's fascinating, exciting stuff, but it's pretty raw and stripped down. SBS and Sabotage, and even parts of Vol. 4, were a different story obviously and not what I meant. Maybe I coulda used a different example, but still!

Wouldn't want people to have "delusions".

I think Litany, Black to the Blind and Impressions in Blood are their best. As Heavens Collide is a fucking awesome song.

But since I don't think it's De Profundis I am obviously a plebian in the death metal ways and do not know a good song from a bad one.

Pah, metal nerds are the most annoying.